Bloomquist as a CF
A lot of people have brought up issues with Mike Hargrove so far. Personally, I haven’t found any of their points overwhelming, and by and large, I think he’s done fine. He’s been exactly what we expected: a manager who doesn’t get in the way of the talent he has. He’s not Earl Weaver, but he’s not Bill Plummer, either.
But, playing Willie Bloomquist in center field… that’s just stupid. Randy Winn, despite public opinion, is a pretty decent center fielder. Ichiro would almost certainly be one of the best defensive center fielders in the game. Using Bloomquist in CF simply for the purpose of leaving Winn and Ichiro in their “regular” positions is just a poor decision. Bloomquist is an inferior player being put in a premium defensive position because… well, there’s no real good reason for it. The longer this goes on, the more it hurts the M’s.
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This is completely off topic, but somewhat relevant and I’ve been thinking about it for the last couple days. Austin Kearns. Now. Somehow, someway, he can be had for cheap.
The lack of power this year isn’t the glaring weakness that it was last year, but I would still love to have this guy be a cornerstone of this franchise.
and WFB has no good reason to be playing anywhere. why does it surprise anyone anymore?
Interesting. Since someone mentioned Bloomquist’s 7/22 lifetime against Zito, I looked up his matchup averages. Against the 7 guys he’s faced for at least 10 ABs (6 lefties), he’s hitting .347. His R/L split is .253/.278.
Obviously, give credit to Bo Mel for getting his ABs against these guys, but how could he figure that out from such a small sample size to begin with? What is it about Buehrle/Sabathia/Escobar (the RH)/Washburn/Zito/Redman/Mulder?
Footnote: Actually against Mulder he’s only 1/14 (.071) but has drawn 4 BBs for a not-ridiculous .278 OBP. I’m tellin’ ya, the Kitsap Kounty Kid is an enigma.
Obviously, give credit to Bo Mel for getting his ABs against these guys, but how could he figure that out from such a small sample size to begin with? What is it about Buehrle/Sabathia/Escobar (the RH)/Washburn/Zito/Redman/Mulder
I really don’t see any way he could, unless he was psychic. There are two other more likely explanations, pick which one you prefer. Either WFB just needs to see a pitcher a few times to dial in, which would mean he could blossom into a much better hitter if he played full time, or it was just luck/small sample size effects.
I would love if someone would crunch the numbers to see whether his hits against those “high” at bat pitchers and see if they are weighted towards later at bats to prove that idea wrong. Because I much prefer the luck explanation.
Someone wake me when the Bloomquist Era is over. Then again, I have a feeling he’ll never leave. Ever.
I work at Bloomie’s hometown daily paper, The Sun, and one of my running arguments with the sports editor (who thinks South Kitsap’s favorite son should get a season of full-time play) is that the numbers show Willie Dynamite has never been particularly good. “Yes,” the sports editor says, “but he’s never really gotten a chance to prove that in the majors, has he? How do we know he won’t be any good unless he gets the chance to prove it?”
At this point we start to lose the handle, with me saying that the numbers are so bad and consistent over the years that they show that Bloomie doesn’t even deserve that chance, and he dismissively saying “numbers asren’t everything.”
Unfortunately, if Bloomquist plays in center field, we both lose — he’ll be wrong, and the Mariners will suffer. Which makes me feel very, very wrong in the intestines.
As for when the Bloomquist era is over:
He’ll retire in 15 years. #16 will be retired.
By the way, my vote for the funniest item ever posted on USS Mariner was Derek’s likening of Willie Bloomquist to the Kool-Aid pitcher … something like “Bloomquist bursts through computer monitor: “Oh, yeah! Bloomie’s got thirst on the run. Bloomie’s here, bringing you fun … with a big wide happy ear-to-ear Bloomie SM-I-I-LE ….”
I still get the giggles whenever I think of Bloomquist. Not for the obvious reasons, but because that post is what I think of.
“Personally, I haven’t found any of their points overwhelming, and by and large, I think he’s done fine.”
Thank the Lord, I’m not crazy. For a while I thought I was the only one that thought Hargrove doesn’t totally suck.
Bloomie can play the Kool-Aid man too? Wow, he really is Mr. Versatility! Is there anything this man CAN’T do? (throwing up in mouth even amidst sarcasm)
Willie Bloomquist can’t blog.
I agree.Write about this in the PI, maybe we’ll get some results.
Bloomquist is in CF tonight, batting 7th.
I just vomited. Maybe my vomit can beautify Port Orchard.
I’ll go Jeremy one better: I just Gorsted all over my keyboard.
I eagerly watched as Bloomquist and Ramon Vasquez worked their way up through our farm system. Although I HATE the “of the future” tag (see former Seattle Seahawks “quarterback of the future” Kelly Stouffer), I was encouraged that someday they would be our second baseman and shortstop of the future for years to come. Then I was further encouraged by Bloomquist at least manning some other positions, if not necessarily playing them that well. (I honestly couldn’t tell.) But watching the past several years now, waiting, waiting, waiting for that batting average to creep above .240 IS LIKE TRYING TO COAX A CAT DOWN OUT OF A TREE!!! ARGH! He’s kinda beginning to lose that once-youthful luster for me.
I wonder what the over/under is for references to “great athletes” being able to play center.
I wonder if Grover set a record for fastest person to earn an award with his new team.
Someone should ask Joel to shave when the game is on HDTV. (Zito shaved.)
Silly NHK, how could they show the last place Yankees game when the first place M’s are playing? *Sigh*
OK now I really hate NHK. I missed the grand slam call.
At the risk of being publically lambasted, I have to disagree. No, not because I am a Bloomquist fan, but what is the alternative really? So you move Ichiro from right to center, then you still have Bloomquist in right. The problem is, the M’s don’t have any real outfielders on their bench. Given the options, Hargrove is making the right decision. Bloomquist is not a great centerfielder, but he’s not a total disaster either.
The easy answer is stick Winn back in center and Bloomquist in left.
As a Bremerton resident and Mariner fan, I was sorely hoping he’d be elected pope. As you can see from tonight’s start in CF, my hope was misplaced.
The even easier answer is jettison his sorry ass and put Winn in CF and Choo in left if you are that desperate to give Reed the night off, and the M’s their worst possible opportunity to win the game.
And back to the Zito question: If you are any pitcher in the majors, why do you EVER throw Olivo anything but junk that breaks low and inside. He swings at that crap like it’s being carried to the plate by some of Felix’s dugout darlings.
Winn in center and WB in left is a reasonable maneuver, but it’s not like it’s so black-and-white. How much better is Winn in center than WB? Somewhat, but is it enough to make it worth moving Winn out of position? Probably, but it is not clearcut.
Willie Dynamite hit a home run off of Zito in college!
I should care, but you know what?
I don’t.
excuse me for rubbing against the grain.
unfounded assumptions aside, do we have evidence that Willie B is an awful defensive centerfielder? Maybe Hargrove’s 50 years in the game might have given him some reason to put him there. Until I see a counter reason besides the all-too-general “Willie Bloomquist suck” then, well, call me open to the possibilities that he may be worth a damn. Anyway the Willie bashing (no pun intended..honestly) has grown way past its usefulness (even for entertainment purposes). When he gets expensive, he’ll be gone. Until then, deal w/ it. Eh? Am I crazy?
Willie Bloomquist can’t get a single hit tonight, yet Jeremy Reed and Greg Dobbs just got back-to-back hits off the bench. Unbelievable.
We can’t deal with Bloomquist, Dave M. The USSM guys, Lookout, David and I at Sports and B’s won’t let up on Bloomquist. He hasn’t done enough to earn my praise. Too bad, so sad.
Re: #26 – I agree for the most part. Willie bashing simply for the sake of bashing him with no concrete evidence backing up the claims is completely worthless. What, this season, has demonstrated Bloomquist’s “inferior” defensive ability as a center-fielder? Instead of the usual “Willie Bloomquist sucks, because we said so”, how about providing some supporting evidence?
I don’t think it is that big of a deal, they brought Reed in to pinch hit later in the game. Hargrove is just getting to know his team. I don’t think we will see Bloomquist in Center very often if at all again.
Choo was promoted tonight to take over for Speizio, that should be interesting.
Did you see Willie play Scutaro’s single off of his chest?? Obviously you can’t generalize about defense from anecdotal evidence, but the guy plays CF like an infielder.
I totally disagree with most of your points on this thread. Randy Winn was below average defensively as a center fielder, in fact he was horrible as a Mariner center fielder. Even though Bloomquist has never played center, he has been better there than Randy. Randy should only be allowed to play in left, where he is okay but certainly not spectacular.
I don’t think Ichiro would be one of the best at center, certainly not in the league of Mike Cameron or Andruw Jones, Griffey,etc. He just isn’t very sure of himself up against the wall, or on balls that are hit over his head. How many times have we seen him get turned around or confused almost at the wall, close to making a great play but instead the ball hits the wall or bounces off his glove (and that is in right!) Great range, great jump on the ball and great arm yes, so above average probably yes.
I do agree that Hargrove is okay and doesn’t get in the way of the talent so to speak, but I will say he’s made a few strange moves already. For example the other day in the first game against the Angels: down 1 run, early in the game, nobody out and Valdez gets on with Ichiro and all the rbi guys coming up, Hargrove runs them out of the inning with a double play hit and run, Why? Is trying to tie the game in the 3rd more important at this point than a possible big inning against the Angels who are sure to score about 5 off of Sele? Now the Angels manager was agressive with the base running, but not stupid. They hit and run with two out, with a lead to tack on more, and with hitters coming up that were less likely to produce. Hargrove was out managed in that game.
Re: 30
You have a problem with that? The infielder mentality is to keep the ball in front of you. The runner from 2nd was going to score anyway. Hey, he could have dove for it and let it go all the way to the wall, but Willie wisely saved that blunder for Eric Byrnes.
I honestly don’t see the reason for all the Willie Bloomquist hate. I agree that Niehaus, et al probably gloss him up quite a bit more then his value, but that doesn’t mean he sucks. I’ve seen some great talent in Willie Bloomquist and I am still waiting for him to really display it.
I think the problem with most of you is that you are Statheads. If it doesn’t get stats, it sucks. Talent recognition doesn’t necessarily equate out to great WHIP or OPS. Unless you want to say that Chone Figgins sucks too?
I have to disagree, Dave. I’ve pretty much always been the President of the Willie Bloomquist Sucks Club but this idea that “Randy Winn is a decent center fielder” is ridiculous. What is this based on? Watching a couple of games a week on TV?
From my perspective and I do see 70+ games at Safeco plus another 30+ road games each years, Bloomquist is a better CF than Winn and even though I hate to see Bloomquist in the starting lineup I’d rather he be starting in CF than moving Winn to CF when Reed gets a day off.
Generally, I haven’t been that impressed with Hargrove’s moves so far (i.e. Using Thornton in prime time role and losing 2 games, not PHing for Wilson in Game 2, not easing Guardado into the closer role when he didn’t pitch at all in spring training and is clearly not ready to close) but apparently he also thinks that Winn doesn’t belong in CF unless there’s an emergency. I was pleasantly surprised the first time he pinch-hit for Reed this year and instead of doing the easy thing (sliding Winn over to CF), he put in Bloomquist in CF.
Winn gets bad jumps on balls, turns the wrong way a good amount of the time and has a joke for an arm. You can hide him in LF (but that arm still kills you when he has to make a crucial throw). Getting a good jump on balls and reading the ball well is so critical to getting to the catchable balls in CF that Winn just has no business being out there. For the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, sure, who gives a damn? Who’ll even notice that he can’t really play the position? Half their team can’t. But to have Randy Winn in CF for a club that hopes to contend for the playoffs? Bad idea and I’m glad that Hargrove appears to realize it.
I know, I know, you think Randy Winn can’t possibly be as bad as everyone said he was last year when he the poster boy defensively for a 99 loss team. But yes, he was that bad, possibly worse. I watched it night after night, suffered with it and I sure as hell don’t want to see it again…
Maybe this whole point will be rendered moot by the presence of Shin-Soo Choo on the roster? I just can’t see them bringing him up and not having him start at least two or three games a week (1 in LF, 1 in CF, 1 at DH, 3 times a season in RF) and I hope that that’s the club’s intention.
It seems that the decision making process on Choo might have been along the lines of we have no decent option to play CF or LF (or DH) when it’s time to give Winn, Reed or Ibanez a night off and Winn and Ibanez (and probably Reed too) should get at least one game off each week to stay sharp. Having Choo up means he can start in place of those guys when they need a rest rather than Bloomquist or Dobbs.
Choo seems like he has a decent future ahead of him. It’s time to get a glimpse of what he can do. I think the next time Reed doesn’t start we’ll see Choo in CF instead of Bloomquist (of course Choo struggled defensively in spring, but has always had a rep as a solid OF)…
Maybe bringing up Choo now is a precursor for the possibility of a trade of Winn to see how Choo does (if he isn’t ready they’d probably try Snelling next if he can stay healthy for 3 weeks). Perhaps the club realizes that they’re going to have to trade Winn at some point as their only other option to improve the pitching is to bring up Felix. H..
“I think the problem with most of you is that you are Statheads. If it doesn’t get stats, it sucks. Talent recognition doesn’t necessarily equate out to great WHIP or OPS. Unless you want to say that Chone Figgins sucks too?”
You’re not seriously comparing Willie Bloomquist and Chone Figgins are you? Bloomquist has 1/2 a season in A-ball, a 33 AB stretch in Seattle and a 12 AB stretch in Tacoma saying he’s a halfway decent hitter; otherwise he’s been mediocre at best, flat-out bad at worst. Figgins has 1.5 years of very good hitting in AAA ball and 1.5 decent years of hitting in the majors. He’s proven himself a superior hitter to Bloomquist by any objective measure.
As for the stats comment – what exactly is it offensively that Bloomquist does that’s so helpful to the team that doesn’t show up in the stats column? Is it the lousy OBP? The near-complete lack of power? Please enlighten me…
#34
Bringing up Choo is great, if they play him and don’t let him rot on the bench. If they’re not going to play him, I’d rather they’d have promoted Jamal Strong.
This bit from Thursday’s Seattle Times (Blaine Newnham column on Jeremy Reed) might shed a little light on Hargrove’s feelings about Winn in CF.
We needed Jeremy to succeed,” said Hargrove, who joined the Mariners after Reed did. “WE NEEDED HIM IN CENTER FIELD SO WE COULD PUT RANDY WINN IN LEFT, WHERE WE THINK HE IS A BETTER PLAYER. It was as simple as that.”
I agree that Niehaus, et al probably gloss him up quite a bit more then his value, but that doesn’t mean he sucks. I’ve seen some great talent in Willie Bloomquist and I am still waiting for him to really display it.
If he’s planning to display it during his major league career, tick-tock, the meter’s running. So far, we have one tiny stint in September 2002, and…nothing else.
Look, Willie Bloomquist is another in the line of Charles Gipson/Shane Monahan/Domingo Ramos of 25th guys on a roster who’ll play anywhere/do anything (and you don’t get to be the 25th guy on a roster if you are lazy and unwilling to do that, simply because the “26th” guy on the roster who’s a 3 year AAA player is just as hungry for a major league job as you are)…which means he’s in the top 1% of baseball players along with the rest of the major leagues. He surely has great talent. He just has less of it than most other major league baseball players, which is shown by his stats (which suck).
What irritates the “statheads” is somehow Willie being made into what he’s not. Minor league players who can hit/field/hustle like Willie are really a dime a dozen- and paeans to his “talent” make stomachs turn.
I think Bloomquist played Centerfield yesterday b/c Zito, a lefty, was starting and they wanted to rest Reed on that day. Now, I notice from the Big Board that Choo is lefthanded, while Strong is righthanded and also a Centerfielder, which creates a platooning option with Reed. Based on this, I think they should have called up Strong rather than Choo. Does the USSM crew agree to this idea?
I’ve seen some great talent in Willie Bloomquist and I am still waiting for him to really display it.
No, you haven’t.
And Jon, you have a long established hatred of Randy Winn. Forgive me if I don’t take your opinion at full value.
Having never seen either play, I went to the “tape”. If the Mariner fans who went to my site are representative, they see Winn and WB as interchangeable. Winn has much better speed, but WB has a much better arm. While I typically prefer speed to arm in CF, in this case, because of Winn’s horrible arm, you could make a decent case.
http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults_SEA.html
I haven’t been following: where’s Reed?
Tango, Reed just got a day off against the lefty Zito.
#40 Fair enough, but in my defense, that hatred for Winn comes almost entirely from his poor showing in CF last year. I wasn’t a Winn basher in 2003, when he played LF, made less money and wasn’t signed to a three-year contract. No, there were no USSM comments to go on at that point in time, but I checked our issues of GS from ‘03 and there was no Winn bashing — the first issue of ‘04 says:
“Everyone involved would be more than pleased if Winn is able to duplicate last season’s numbers while playing a passable defensive center field.” (but of course he wasn’t able to play anything close to a passable CF)
IMO, you don’t pay nearly $4 million for a slap hitting OF UNLESS he’s a top flight defensive OF at your most important defensive OF position, center field. Winn is most certainly not a top notch CF.
Sure, I may be a Randy Winn basher but I’ve also always been a Bloomquist basher and I’m still able to recognize that WFB does a pretty decent job out in CF. He still can’t hit a lick, but he has the range to play CF, gets a good jump on the ball, has the speed to chase balls down, etc. Like others here I cringe every time I see Willie’s name in the starting lineup but if it means I’m spared from watching Winn try to play CF it’s worth it…
The only defensive advantage Bloomquist has on Winn is arm strength. Everything else goes to Winn; instincts, first step, foot speed, route running. Everything.
The “Winn is a terrible CF” is just not true. There’s a good amount of data that shows that he’s fine out there. He’s not Mike Cameron, but he’s nowhere near as bad as you think.
Grover could credibly claim that he thinks Winn is a better hitter when he’s playing in left. That’s the only justification I can imagine.
Grover could credibly claim that he thinks Winn is a better hitter when he’s playing in left.
Well, he could claim whatever he wants, but there’s no actual evidence to support it. Winn’s numbers last year as a CF were nearly identical to his numbers when he was an LF the year before. And the best year of his career came as a CF in Tampa.
I’m basically convinced that a huge majority of the ill will towards Randy Winn comes because he throws like a girl. If he had an average major league arm, I’d imagine people would realize that he’s a pretty darn good player.
#46 “There’s a good amount of data that shows that he’s fine out there”
Dave, you’re going on data and I was out at the ballpark almost every day watching Winn try to play CF. With all due respect, I have to call BS on that one. I recall that “your data” also told you that the M’s were wrong to release John Olerud last year because “he was the second-best hitter on the team” at the time.
I’m sorry, but statistics can only go so far. “Your data” isn’t telling you about those first inning catchable balls that Winn didn’t catch (since they were scored as doubles when they should have been outs) that led to the team being in a 3-0 or 4-0 hole when it should have been 0-0 or 1-0.
We’ve talked about this extensively before. Dave thinks much of Winn’s reputation centers on his awful arm. I believe there’s more to it than that, and that Winn’s awful centerfield reputation comes from his awful, awful play out there for the early months in the season, and that impression soured everyone to the point where later in the season every ball that droped in was his fault and nearly every out was something he should have caught anyway.
He improved a lot last year through the course of the season. His routes to balls got much better, in particular, he got better jumps on them. I don’t think he was stellar, but by the end of the year he was playing well out there.
Jon,
We’ve had this conversation before. I’m not just going off data. I’ve watched Winn play as often as you have. I disagree with your personal opinions, and think they’re based in a lot of bias against players with Winn’s skillset. You don’t like slap hitting corner outfielders, and that affects your ability to objectively evaluate Winn’s ability to run down flyballs.
In this case, subjective opinions disagree, and objective statistics are completely against you. You don’t get to just call something true because you believe it in the face of all kinds of disagreement.
In other words, “I’ve watched him and I’m telling you he sucks” isn’t a credible argument.
We probably should just agree to disagree but a couple of points.
1) I agree with Derek — Winn did improve in CF over the course of last year. But I still don’t think he was even an average major league CF. And with all the space in the outfield at Safeco the M’s have to have an above average CF.
2) I have no problem with slap hitting outfielders. I actually like slap hitting outfielders with speed (which Winn has). But they become a problem when a) you sign them to multi-year contract for more $$$ than they’re worth b) they potentially block cheaper power hitting alternatives c) they play below average defense
3) I’m not sure how you can claim that you’ve seen Winn play as often as I have when you don’t live in Seattle and only see a handful of M’s games in person a year. I’m not trying to bash you here but it’s a fact that you’re not at the ballpark night after night. Having to rely on watching MLB TV on a small computer screen is just not the same as being at the park and seeing Randy Winn suck in the flesh…
Olerud WAS the second best hitter on the team when he was released, plus he played adequate defense.
“No, you haven’t.”
Yes, I have. Why you haven’t surprises me.
Y’know, I’m not even going to try to defend Willie Bloomquist in such hostile environments. It’s nearly impossible to convince any of you anyway.
What I want to know is, why some of you latch onto such irrational disgust and / or hatred for some players? Bloomquist is just one. I think the pattern, though, is that most of you kvetch about anybody who plays while lamenting that your favorite minor leaguers don’t get a chance to play. I can see that. I can definately see a frustration in not having guys like Hernandez, “Doyle”, AJ Zapp (when he was in our club) etc on TV everyday playing baseball because they’re good strong talents. But I think a lot of you forget that MLB teams are managed meticulously and not just wontonly based on stats. Utility players like Bloomquist dot every team. Why are they all there? Well, because they’re necessary to keep a team fully functional and to give the manager some options. You could argue that other people can do that too, but why bother bringing up someone else who can do that when you already have someone who can?
I’m not going to say the “I” word, but sometimes you have to take those things into account.
(For those not following along, the “I” word is “intangibles”, something that nobody here can mention without being torn to shreds)
Let’s not forget that he slugged a wholly inadequate .360! 5 HR’s in 261 AB’s (a pace for 9 HR’s in 500 AB’s)
And his replacement, who wouldn’t have been given a shot in the majors if Olerud weren’t dumped, slugged .500 with 9 HR’s in 160 AB’s (a pace for 29 HR’s in 500 AB’s).
So the evidence is in — I guess we should have kept the rotting carcass of John Olerud’s career instead of kicking him to the curb…
2) I have no problem with slap hitting outfielders. I actually like slap hitting outfielders with speed (which Winn has). But they become a problem when a) you sign them to multi-year contract for more $$$ than they’re worth b) they potentially block cheaper power hitting alternatives c) they play below average defense.
Uh, beg pardon, but who’s being refereed to here in item B and C, when it comes to the Mariners? The last guy who remotely resembled B. from our minor league system was Jose Cruz Jr.
And Winn’s overall offense comes out as being equivalent (EqA last tweo years: .280/.281) the last couple of years to guys like Cliff Floyd in 2004, Pat Burrell in 2004, Geoff Jenkins in 2004, Hideki Matsui in 2003. He doesn’t hurt the team in LF offensively- he doesn’t HELP a bunch either (a corner OF with an EqA of .280 is basically a skosh above league-average performance)…but a league-average performer at a position is nothing to sneer at either, it’s just not a strength of your team.
And I don’t think Winn is below average in LF- considering the “average” includes Mann Ramirez, Lonnie Smith and Lou Brock, who were all pretty awful. There are a lot of teams with statues in LF. A fielder with a weak arm and very good range, to my thinking, is ABOVE average in LF- the throwing part of the job isn’t as important as it is in CF or RF, and this was born out by our good OF defense in 2003 (with Winn, Cammy and Ichiro).
I take no position on the whole stats v. non-stats thing, or rather I take the position they’re both worthwhile; I will say this, however, and I will say it without reference to any specific player.
Statements like “I’m sure Player X is really good, and I’m waiting for him to finally display it/waiting for him to bust out/waiting for Godot/whatever” are essentially meaningless. If Player X was really good, don’t you think he would have busted out already, in the chances given him to date?
Is it all part of Player X’s calculated plan to get to the majors, be the 25th guy on the roster, futz along for a while being neither good nor bad, then one day, out of the blue, be awarded an every day roster spot because he’s a swell guy and then say to himself “That’s all I need, now I’ll go hit 45 HR and drive in 125 runs”? Um, no. Doesn’t really happen that way. If you’re good, you’re good, and if you’re 25th man material, that’s where you’ll stay. No amount of game exposure is gonna turn a guy with marginal skills into Carlos Beltran. Or even Carlos Baerga.
(For those not following along, the “I†word is “intangiblesâ€, something that nobody here can mention without being torn to shreds).
That’s because much of the time “intangibles”, when brandished at a “stathead”, is short for “Don’t bother me with the facts or a well-suported argument- I’ve already made up my mind on whatever it is you are talking about, based on old baseball chestnuts like ‘hustle’ and ‘little ball, stolen basea and sac bunts are the key to winning baseball games’. I am totally unwilling to examine anything at odds with my current beliefs with an open mind”.
Damn right that should be torn to shreds. Either put up or shut up. Why is Bloomquist talented in ways that you don’t see in a box score? Why isn’t he simply a marginally tealented major leaguer who’s trying to keep his job via hustle in good baseball tradition (as detailed by the Seattle press)?
#54 “who’s being refereed to here in item B and C”
I wasn’t only referring to minor leaguers making the minimum, such as Cruz in ‘97 (or someone like Choo), but also to guys the M’s could pick up on the free agent market or via trade for less than $3.75 mil a season.
Bloomquist has value because he can play just about anywhere, and that is what you are looking for in your 25th man/utility player. He brings a good attitude to the clubhouse, and the management thinks he has intangibles that help the team win. Those intangibles are not measured statistically.
Now as he heads toward arbitration in coming years his tools at a more expensive price may not be as desireable.
The guy who really has to go is Speizarillo.
Bloomquist has value because he can play just about anywhere
The ability to play six positions poorly is not valuable. Darn near anyone can take a glove and be below average at a whole bunch of different spots on the field.
and that is what you are looking for in your 25th man/utility player.
There’s no law that says a team is required to carry a utility player, or even have a 25th man. Good roster management maximizes each roster spot, getting full value out of every player, and not wasting spots on guys who contribute nothing on the field.
He brings a good attitude to the clubhouse
How do you know? And why do you care?
and the management thinks he has intangibles that help the team win.
The management thinks a lot of things that aren’t true. Blindly nodding our heads and agreeing with their decisions isn’t going to help anyone.
Those intangibles are not measured statistically.
They aren’t measured at all. They are simply applied to players whom have no discernable skills on the field as a way to justify their spot on the roster. The Mariners led the league in character guys with intangibles last year. All that niceness got them 99 losses.
Hargrove has been a disappointment, but not a disaster. I do not subscribe to the “never sacrifice, never steal” philosophy, but Hargrove has used them in questionable situations — Reed sacrificing in the 1st inning, sending Winn to 3B with no outs, double steal by sending Dan Wilson(?!?!) to third. Boone’s steal last night made sense — close game, one out, with four poor OPS guys (including Ibanez v. LHP) coming up, so a big inning is unlikely and you probably need that extra base to score. Valdez’s attempt the other day did not.
Hargrove gets credit for not being afraid to pull starters a batter too soon than a batter too late, but his bullpen moves are often puzzling — using Thornton in close games, leaving relievers in too long (Thornton against Texas, Nelson last night), not having relievers warmed up, underusing Mateo.
Granted, the holes on the bench and the lack of healthy talent on the pitching staff are not his fault, but with this team, Hargrove’s margin for error is low if this teams wants to stay competitive.
And from where I was sitting last night, Bloomquist looked lost playing Kotsay’s double.
Willie will be on KJR at 12:05 PM today to defend his start in CF last night…
Oh, if it was only for 1 game, I don’t see the big deal in who plays CF or LF. That decision will cost at most 0.1 runs for 1 game, and really much less than that. Over the course of say having Reed sit out for 30 games, it’ll be a 1 or 2 run decision at most, if WB is indeed better suited at LF with Winn at CF.
In return for having a suboptimal setup, you get Winn to concentrate at LF only, and you’ve got Winn and Ichiro aligned a certain way for Reed and another way for WB.
I’m not a fan of moving guys into multiple fielding positions, unless it’s for a concentrated amount of time. That’s not the case here.
If Jeter goes down a couple of games, I wouldn’t move ARod over, even if it would make more sense than the alternatives.
It seems the issue the fans are really having is seeing WB at all, and deciding to take it out on the LF/CF thing, so as to limit the number of times WB can be seen.
Re: $49 – While we’re talking about bias opinions hindering a persons ability to objectively evaluate a player’s skills, how about referring back to the original USSM post that triggered this thread? You know, that one about Willie Bloomquist being a terrible center-fielder and an “inferior” player, with no supporting evidence whatsoever. That seems to fall along the exact same lines as what you’re discounting Jon’s statements for.
You’re exactly right, however, with that last line of your reply. “‘I’ve watched him and telling you he sucks’ isn’t a credible argument.”
I suggest you practice what you preach.
I said Bloomquist was an inferior center fielder to Winn. I don’t even think thats an arguable point. That’s all I said. Everything else in your argument are your words, not mine.
Now, go take your strawman elsewhere.
One number you Willie-bashers should keep in mind is 19. That’s the number of years Mark McLemore spent on major league rosters as a second-baseman-turned-utility-player. His offensive numbers in his first 10 or so years were comparable to or worse than Bloomquist (except SB and BB/K ratio).
Yeah, I know, I know. 19 years just gos to show all Mac’s ball clubs were run by idiots. But still, it wouldn’t hurt to have some perspective. Willie IS, after all, a major-league ball player.
Ummmm…. wow. So all crappy players should be kept around until they turn good? That seems like a low return argument.
Willie IS, after all, a major-league ball player.
Also… that’s meaningless. Players don’t get twice as good because they’re promoted to the 25-man.
Given 19 years of training, practice, and coaching, I could become as good a ballplayer as Willie Bloomquist. Can I have a contract now, please, Bill Bavasi?
Ummmm…. wow. So marginal = “crappy”?
The perspective I was hoping to illuminate is this: You’ve got four subs to cover eight spots. One is the #2 catcher, and two are LH hitters. The fourth guy has to be versatile to give you flexibility with your two pinch-hitters. It also helps if he’s not an asshole.
I recognize your opinion and where you’re coming from, just as I hope you can reciprocate. But remember, this is not Strat-O-Matic — the roster is made of real people. Lots of GMs, and managers, and fans think there are reasons to keep a guy like Bloomquist. Just because they’re not based entirely on his statistics does not mean they are not valid.
#68 –
I don’t mean this in a confrontational way, but what exactly are the reasons to keep a guy like Bloomquist around? “Good clubhouse presence” doesn’t count, because it doesn’t help a team win on the field; nor do his “intangibles” – if they’re not tangible, they’re not useful.
And I don’t mean that last in a statistical sense – the fact that Willie Bloomquist plays the piano is an “intangible”, and it matters not a whit as far as his baseball playing goes. What matters is what he can do on the field and at the plate, and in that respect, actions speak louder than words.
I think the whole point of this whole thing is that intangibles aren’t enough. Talent plays a big part, and Willie’s main talent seems mostly to be polarizing these comment threads.
Reasons? I only know what I see on TV, and read in the Times, P-I and USSM, but here goes.
1) I don’t think he’s nearly as bad a defender as the bashers make him out to be. In fact, I think he’d compare pretty well to the current Boone at 2nd. He beats Raul, or Bucky, at 1st. He’s at least as good as the Leone of last September at 3rd. He looks lost in the outfield at times, and might cost you a game there someday, but not by making a bad decision (like Byrnes last night).
2) He’s good enough at the plate that you’d be hard pressed to find a much better hitter with his defensive ability and versatility, who isn’t already a regular somewhere, or bound to be, or too expensive.
3) Near as I can tell, he’s not an asshole. Sorry if that is “intangible,” but I’ve worked with assholes in marginal roles, and nobody needs that kind of attitude fouling up their workplace. Like I said, this is not Strat-O-Matic.
Randy Winn’s defense in cf is bad enough that he would not start for
a division contending club in cf. Visually, his impediments stick out,
yet there are allusions made to a higher knowledge of his capabilities.
So how does he measure up to other American League CFielders? Are
you using the defensive efficiency numbers? Total Chances? What is it?
In two plus years here, I’ve yet to see go near a wall on top of goat trail routes and no arm.
So, I don’t think anyone is claiming that Bloomquist is a great player. Obviously, he’s not. So, why is he on the team? Why do so many teams have players like him on their rosters?
Here’s a thought. When Jose Lopez gets healthy, should we bring him up to replace Bloomquist? He might perform better. Still, I would hate to see it. Lopez is still developing and I’d rather he get the work in Tacoma than sit on the bench here. We need him to be ready for next year.
I would say that bench players generally share these qualities:
1) They’re not good enough to start. If they are, we should either play them or trade them.
2) They’re probably one-dimensional, either as pinch hitters or defensive subs. See #1.
3) They’re basically finished products. At least, we don’t feel like the long-term good of the team is hurt by having them sit on the bench.
So, should we blame Bavasi for having Bloomquist on the roster? It may sound funny, but I think I’d be more critical of Bavasi if we had a quality player in that spot. In that case, I’d want to know why we have such a valuable asset wasting on the bench when we have so many other holes to fill.
BTW, I think it’s very interesting that Dobbs is up with the team. I think that means that the M’s have decided that he’s a career pinch hitter.
#70 –
Can you please lay off the Strat-O-Matic comments? Nobody’s arguing that baseball is a board game or a statistical thesis here, and things like that just serve to cheapen your argument. Thank you.
As for your points, I’ll give you Bloomquist as a marginal hitter (and I can’t prove this without hitting the stats, so I won’t go there), and that he would beat Bucky at first. But then, a dead cat could probably beat Bucky at first – Bucky’s a hitter, nothing more.
Your point that Bloomquist is versatile is something that’s been noted here many times, with little debate – but I would suggest that doing six things at par or slightly below is less valuable to a club than doing one thing reasonably well (like Bucky, or like Ibanez as DH). If Bloomquist says “Hey Grover, put me in at short today”, and he muffs a routine ground ball, then tomorrow Hargrove puts him at second to shake things up, and he does it again, he’s just hurt the team twice; if Bucky strikes out as a DH, he’s only hurt the team once.
Yes, it’s a bit of a reductionist argument, but hopefully you can see the point I’m trying to make.
As for the asshole thing, Michael Jordan was widely reputed to be the biggest asshole in the NBA. He seemed to do all right. If a guy’s that much of an ass, nobody will talk to him in the clubhouse anyway (see Bonds, Barry), so I don’t think that’s as big a problem as you seem to.
“so I don’t think that’s as big a problem as you seem to.”
See also:
Everett, Carl
Garciaparra, Nomar
Segui, David (but only around Randy Johnson)
Guillen, Jose
Bradley, Milton
All distracting clubhouse influences on and off the field who, probably, have effected their teams in one way or another. I can’t say for sure without going and talking to every single player they ever played with and getting direct testimony, but it is interesting that those people mentioned have rarely played for championship teams.
Jordan and Bonds might be comparitive examples, but those are also the extremes.
Back to Willie. Let’s turn the question around on you then, why do YOU think the Mariners management has kept Willie Bloomquist on the team? You want us to come up with something, but you’re the ones questioning it, not us. You tell us why he’s stillt here. The answer of enlightenment will only come from your own journey. Or some such crap.
The reason Willie’s still on the team, in my un-insider-perspective-no-real-knowledge opinion, is that he’s local, and he makes for a good story in the local media as scrappy local dude.
If what people want out of their team is a bunch of lovable scrappers, by all means load the team up with the Bloomquists and the Dan Wilsons of the world. If, however, people want the M’s to be a playoff contender (which I think most people on this site do…), there are other options to fill that spot (like the aforementioned Chone Figgins) who would do a far better job than Willie.
I wasn’t only referring to minor leaguers making the minimum, such as Cruz in ‘97 (or someone like Choo), but also to guys the M’s could pick up on the free agent market or via trade for less than $3.75 mil a season.
OK, let’s look at some sample FA’s we could have signed instead.
Raul Ibanez? Ooops, bad example.
Jose Cruz Jr.? Not really better, but I guess that’s an example.
Juan Gonzalez. Uh, whoops, probably would have been a bad idea.
Jose Guillen? Well, in 2003, sure. He’s making 3.5 million now, though.
Ruben Sierra? Well, he makes less. But he also is a worse player.
You have some better examples of players who’ve been consistently at league average for corner OF and uninjured the whole time? Otherwise, I’d say Randy Winn really isn’t a bad deal at his current salary (especially when you consider the inflation that happened this offseason).
I also don’t think Choo is likely to be a substantially better player anytime soon- if he turned out to be Randy Winn (.350 OBP/.425 SLG/25 SB’s) we’d be doing pretty well. To be honest, NONE of the M’s starting OF’ers and best prospects (Ichiro, Reed, Winn, Ibanez, Snelling, Choo) have the kind of consistent .500 SLG/25+ HR slugging power you classically associate with a corner OF’er. Winn, Reed, Choo and Snelling ALL strike me as guys who have to hit with a pretty high average to be good, because they aren’t likely to ever hit 20 bombs (though Winn’s the least likely of them to do so since he probably will K the most).
Randy Winn isn’t the problem, really. I’d argue the problem is we haven’t produced a power hitter from our farm system at ANY position since Jose Cruz Jr. (unless you count Ibanez, and I have a hard time classifying someone whose career high in HR’s is 24 as a power hitter).
Back to Willie. Let’s turn the question around on you then, why do YOU think the Mariners management has kept Willie Bloomquist on the team? You want us to come up with something, but you’re the ones questioning it, not us. You tell us why he’s stillt here. The answer of enlightenment will only come from your own journey. Or some such crap.
That’s easy- he’s a built in good story (”local, scrappy kid tries hard every day, blah blah blah”) that gets you positive coverage in the media because he keeps his nose clean, he’s one of the few recent draft picks that hasn’t totally washed out yet (and thus the team has an inflated perception of his worth), and he embodies a number of baseball cliches that tradtional baseball thinking really overemphasizes as being part of “winning baseball” (clubhouse chemistry, hustle, little ball things like stolen bases and bunts, as examples of “intangibles” we hear about endlessly). Plus he’s not eligible for arbitration yet and is thus relatively inexpensive as your 25th player, and at least theoretically can be used as the backup for multiple positions- which is important if you are carrying a 12 man bullpen, as that means you really only have 3 bench spots outside of the backup C.
It’s not a disaster to be carrying Willie Bloomquist on your bench, necessarily. If this bench had a backup C who could hit pretty decently, Dave Hansen as a late inning PH backup corner IF and a decent 4th OF, having Willie B. as your primary pinch-runner, “hustle guy”, middle IF backup and final utility guy would be quite defensible (assuming that your infielders are pretty healthy and only need the occasional day off)- at least until he starts costing you much more than the minimum, at which point you find the new Willie Bloomquist. Yeah, ideally David Eckstein would be your backup IF. Sometimes you don’t get your ideal.
The problem is that the entire bench is basically people who hit like Willie Bloomquist, and the team seems to think a bench full of hustle guys who seemingly can’t hit water falling out of a boat (Wilson/Dobbs/Spiezio/Willlie) is a great idea. Willie gets some of the backlash from that here.