Game 36, Red Sox at Mariners
JMB · May 14, 2005 at 9:27 pm · Filed Under Game Threads
I’ll start this one just in time for us to all say that ball might have been foul.
Also, I swear I didn’t have anything to do with Mateo making the rotation. (Evil laugh)
Comments
48 Responses to “Game 36, Red Sox at Mariners”
Hendu just said “it’s game time,” so this thread probably started right on schedule!
Ooh, bases loaded for ManRam. Ugly.
Yeah, this one looks like it could get out of hand rather quickly.
jason
JJ!
I knew he could do it. 🙂
the Putz smokes Ramirez with 97mph heater!
Niiiice. Go JJ.
jason
Nice K, JJ.
Manny out on heat. 2 outs, sacks still full, and Nixon up. Roll on.
Knickers.
Aw, crap.
jason
Oops.
JJ!
Time to go read. Geez.
and then…. hope dies.
“Trot” over to the Deuce — Pineiro and Winn are on “Teammates” hosted by Stu Scott.
Wiki pulled a hammy?
I’m guessing from the boxscore, 5 1/3, 4 hits, 3 walks, 6 strikeouts(six?!) and 1ER.
Did Franklin pitch fairly well this evening? I hope I don’t hear any more boxscore bellyaching from Rizzs and Hendu, but I know I will.
Frankie to throw a lot of pitches to a patient Red Sox lineup, but got out of some jams and gave the team a chance to win.
Hargrove, why did you:
a) Bring in Franklin for the 6th after he’d already thrown 110 or so pitches
b) Bring in Villone to face someone who bats .667 against him
Other questionable moves, but those, to me, were egregious.
I hope Wiki is OK…
or
We’re on the phone with Benito Santiago’s agent as we speak.
When Ichiro says “Dude” in that “batters’ box” Mariners’ commercial, it cracks me up.
Wiki will be in my prayers tonight.
Man, i’m so glad we signed hansen. Nobody else on this team could have looked at 5 straight pitches to end the game quite like he just did.
Me, too; how did everybody like that freaking strike zone tonight?! That thing went from ankles to shoulders and about four feet wide…
“Oh Lord, you are a good and gracious Lord, be with thy Wiki tonight,” Greg Focker, dinner at the Burns house.
Slay the wicked; save the Wiki.
Re 20, yeah, the game ender to Hansen was about 10 inches off the dirt.
Has it really gotten this bad? It’s Wiki Gonzalez you guys! For the longest time, I was the only saying that he should be on the M’s; however, my reasoning was based on the fact that he should be given a chance to earn his paycheck. C’mon! It’s jus’ Wiki.
Oh yeah, in other news, what ’bout Rule V? Hah!
Why is it every time a pitching matchup doesn’t work, it’s “why did you do that Grover?!”. Yet when a pitching matchup does work, nobody says anything?
Mateo was unavailable. Would you have preferred Thornton? Or Nelson? Pretty sure Sherril wasn’t officially available yet. I think every pitcher has been used quite a bit lately. The options were fairly limited as to who could come in and pitch. The idea was to turn him around from a lefty to a righty. It didn’t work. He took a good pitch and went down and got it. It was a decent piece of hitting and a bit of luck.
Why do I have to explain these moves? Some of them should be fairly obvious.
Name ’em. I got time.
Since someone reminded us of the Gary Sheffield comments about Ichiro only hitting singles / base hits all the time, I have a newfound respect for the cleverness of that commercial.
Oh yeah, it is nice to see Ron Villone feel the pain of having his ERA blasted due to another pitchers ineptitude; Villone has been the master of allowing other pitcher’s allowed baserunners to score all season.
re 26
Not that I think Villone’s a good pitcher, but doesn’t this tendency indicate Villone’s inadequacies as a LOOGY? (Though, I have to agree with the Typical Fan, how much lattiude did Hargrove have? Competent pitchers who do their job give managers a lot more flexibility….)
Typicalidiot –
1 – Franklin was not, at that point, looking sharp at all.
2 – Prefered over Villone against that particular batter? Leave Shiggy in… THEN bring in Villone
3 – I realize you’re not sitting here next to me… but it is unfair to assume that I came to the conclusion Villone was bad there AFTER the fact. I did not. If chat had been up, you would have seen it first.
The lefty/righty thing is an issue for me because I have spent too long seeing it overvalued. It IS a valuable tool… but not THE valuable tool. And when you have an individual batting .667 against your pitcher (higher now) perhaps it can be considered more than just luck.
Having attended six innings of the game tonight, I have two comments:
1. Ryan Franklin is the luckiest pitcher on the planet. He also needs to STOP TAKING A MINUTE PER PITCH. Throw the freakin’ ball, idiot. Why did we leave after inning six? It was nearly 9:30, and the daughter was turning into a pumpkin. 2.5 hours to play six innings of baseball, thanks to Mr. 110 pitches over six innings.
2. The fans of the other 29 teams in baseball should all show up in Boston for an intervention. It’s time for Red Sox fans to put down the bottle and get clean and sober, now that their one excuse for drinking has finally been vanquished. Even the Red Sox kids were up six alcoholic beverages by the time we left.
#25:
Hargrove should have taken Franklin out before the sixth. I said this before Ramirez hit the home run. He also should have left Hasegawa in to face Bellhorn. I said this before Everything bad happened. It wasn’t because the moves didn’t work in hindsight, it was because his moves were obviously bad. Franklin was not hitting the corners; his strikes were all in the middle of the plate, and everything else was a ball. It was only a matter of time before someone took him deep, especially as he got tired. And Hasegawa was pitching fine and has been phenomenal all year. Why take him out? Why switch Bellhorn over to batting righthanded, where he has a higher average and much higher OPS in his career? Hindsight has nothing to do with it. They were just bad moves. Kind like having Nelson face Womack in NY last week, even though lefties are batting .333 against him. Or in the next game, having Thornton pitch another inning after blowing a three run lead.
He looked fine to me. The 110 pitch thing was blown out of proportion. That many pitches and only 2 walks, 6 strikeouts, and 1 run (on a solo homerun afterthefact) is someone who at least has pretty sharp command of something. Not sure why Franklin was throwing so many balls, but I counted quite a few at bats that were “continued” because the umpire just refused to call strike three. Ortiz’ at bat in the first inning comes to mind. Then he punches out Oritz later… /sigh.
Who says Shiggy would have done better? Maybe Shiggy promptly gives up a 2 run bomb. Maybe he strikes out every batter til the end of the game. Maybe the sun explodes.
More importantly, what made you think Villone couldn’t do it? Because he didn’t?
Well then that makes you a psychic I guess. I had no problem with the move. Most people who dont like Ron Villone, and there are quite a few who frequent these boards, probably were twitching a bit just like you were when he was brought in. But nobody has any clue, ever, what someone is going to do in a ballgame. Villone could have done things different. He didn’t. Shiggy could have done things different. He didn’t. Putz could have done things different. He didn’t.
Even if you say you did have a gutcheck about it beforehand, who cares? Hargrove made a decision. Just like Francona makes a decision to actually use John Halama. Managers are going to make errors, but they’re only errors after the fact, not before hand.
In this case the righty/lefty wasn’t the situation, it was choosing which side of the plate you wanted the batter on. It is harder to pull homeruns to leftfield then rightfield at SafeCo (In theory). The matchup had nothing to do with Mueller’s BA vs. Villone. And let’s not split hairs: Mueller’s hit was on a breaking ball that he pulled just barely fair. He was on his front foot, off balance, and somehow still managed to get the job done. That’s both good hitting and luck. You can say that because he’s batting .667 (or whatever) against Villone that it was pre-destined, but I’m not willing to accept that. Mueller dropped a ball where nobody was. That’s the end of that. Beaning Ortiz was more Ortiz’s fault then Villone’s, but that’s the way things go when you pitch up-and-in.
As for Putz, you’re not questioning that move. Neither was I. In fact, after I saw Putz blow Manny away, I was on the edge of my seat. I dont think I’ve EVER seen JJ throw that hard or with that much confidence. He was fearless. Nixon… you just have to tip your cap to that. 98 MPH is not easy to hit…
Two thoughts from tonight’s game:
1. Maybe Putz shouldn’t have thrown like 8 straight fastballs until he gave up the salami. Feels like 1 off speed pitch to Trot might have changed the whole game.
2. Is anyone else developing an irrational hatred (or irritation at least) toward Red Sox fans?
No one could touch it at that point, why change it? 98 mph is pretty tough to hit by itself. Really all Nixon had to do was make contact and the natural laws of physics would apply from there. Tough way to lose, especially for JJ.
Actually I thought it was funny when the Bosox Nation was starting to do that “lefts go Redsox” chant, and then you could hear the Mariners Faithful “booing” trying to drown them out. Both times Manny K’d really brought some energy to the Mariners Faithful.
People say M’s fans are some of the worst in baseball because we don’t get all excited everytime the ball is thrown, like Yankee Fans or Boston Fans. I say bullox to that. Mariners fans are students of the game and pay attention to everything. When something amazing does happen, we’re there. Until then, I think that those two fanbases just do what they do because it’s expected of them.
Where’s Pat Borders? Wouldn’t he be good to get Olivio to actually play correctly? need to see him poking Olivio in the chest telling him he’s better than what he is doing (ala Freddy).
Typical Idiot…
Come on, man. We all know there is no absolute certainty of prediction. It is, however, perfectly reasonable to make judgements about who is a good idea and a bad idea to bring in.
You know that. Let’s keep this reasonable and friendly, ok?
Jim B. said:
When a guy is throwing gas like Putz was, I think he threw the right pitch. He challenged the batter with a high fastball at 98 mph, and Nixon beat him. However, Putz threw his best stuff. Why get beat throwing something else?
On another note, I think I am beginning to understand why Hargrove has dug his heels in regarding the 12-man pitching staff. How many innings have our starters averaged over the last week and a half? 4? Maybe 5? That’s a lot of innings for the bullpen. Ideally I would like to see 11, maybe 10, pitchers on the roster, but I would also like to see our starters make it into the seventh every once in a while. If our starters are going to continue to perform like they have been, Hargrove may need to consider a 13-man staff…
In common with some of the other comments, I also felt that it was a mistake to let Franklin stay in the game for the 6th inning, despite the fact that he was working on a shutout.
The moment I saw him get up off the bench at the start of the 6th, I figured there was trouble ahead. He wasn’t fooling the batters any more, and it was likely to end badly.
The fact that Villone then proceeded to load the bases doesn’t change anything – I still would have told Frankie to head to the showers after the 5th.
Call me TIF. Leaving off the “Fan” kinda kills it, but typing all that out is kind of annoying so… there ya go. No, Im not a girl, but that’s the acronym. What’s a guy to do? 😉
The problem is that an idea itself doesn’t resolve anything one way or another, it’s what happens that does. It may not have been a good idea to bring in Villone. But that’s a matter of opinion. Hargrove thought it was a good idea. Villone probably did too. But their situation is different from ours.
Could Shiggy have gone farther and successfully? Probably. But I think Hargrove was thinking ahead and behind. Shiggy threw yesterday (if I recall) and the day before(?) and may throw tomorrow. If, with Mateo going to the rotation, that means that more arms have to be used to cover that vacancy (until Sherril gets into the games that is) then maybe that’s what Grover was thinking. The plan probably made sense to him, but we’ll probably never know what that plan was. I was speculating on what the motivations were to bring in Villone. Hell, I have no idea why he was brought in. Hargrove and probably Bryan Price had a plan though, and it didn’t work. Im sure there was more to it then whatever we’re thinking tho.
The problem is I’m trying to argue from a standpoint where I have little ground to back up on. I don’t really know what Hargrove was thinking, I just didn’t disagree with the move then and don’t now. I’m not sure why you did, but that’s that. So if it seems like I’m being unreasonable and friendly, you have to understand that I don’t do well with argumentum ad ignorantiam, and that’s kind of the position I’m in right now. I’m speculating, which is something I always argue against.
TIF,
“Why is it every time a pitching matchup doesn’t work, it’s “why did you do that Grover?!â€Â. Yet when a pitching matchup does work, nobody says anything?”
Because we pay him for them to work. It is the expectation and should not be exceptional in the least. When a Major League Manager makes poor decisions, it is a failure on his part and is certainly of note. When such failures accumulate it does not reflect well on him and others are right to comment. Great managers rarely experience such lapses. Sloppy ones, on the other hand…
That’s bunk. And for two good reasons:
1). You’re working on the assumption that everything that happens is the manager’s responsibility and that the player and his actions have nothing to do with it.
2). You’re working on another assumption that “bad decisions” have been piling up on Grover. On the contrary. Bad decisions made by Grover have actually been fewer then you think. As I have been debating with John in LA here about, decisions are only viably judged in hindsight, but until they’ve actually been made and actions have resulted can anybody even judge in the first place. Any judging before that is premature based on nothing but speculation. Even statistical analysis, though a wonderful tool for calculating probabilities, cannot predict for certain what will happen in a game.
In any event, I think Hargrove is getting a lot of undue judgement from a lot of people. The same people who up until recently bought into the whole Wiki Gonzalez is the “laziest player in baseballâ„¢” BS.
Like I said before, bringing in Villone was mathematically and logically the bad decision. Bellhorn is a better hitter against lefties, hasegawa’s numbers are better overall, and Villone pitched last night. The manager cannot completely control the game, but there is a right move and a wrong move in each situation, and he made the wrong one, regardless of the outcome.
Wow fans were up late last night and early morning. Hope everyone gets enough sleep to return for today’s 1pm start.
Went to bed after the salami. I mean can this team find any more ways to lose? At a certain point this has to stop and they have to win a few games in a row. Crap.
I’ll quickly weigh in on the Villone thing-I didn’t like the move at the time for no other reason than I thought the way Shiggy was pitching didn’t merit taking him out. After reading the numbers (ie .667) that makes it an even worse move. TIF, you make good points about the manager getting too much blame. However, I agree with #41. The numbers, etc. make it a bad decision by Hargrove. All the manager can do is make the most logical decision at the time, and if the players don’t perform, what can you do? However, he did not make that move last night when he put in took out Shiggy.
Sexson is on pace for 50 HR, 143 RBI, 120 R, 101 BB.
Weighing in on the manager critique. Growing up playing ball, I’ve heard “players win games, managers lose games,” a million times. Maybe there’s somethig to it.
Re: THE MATCH-UP (many #s)- (“So-and-so reallly owns him. He’s batting .500 (one for two) against him.”) These things are based on small samples, sometimes very tiny ones. One wonders if too much attention is paid to them.
BTW, about Putz throwing eight straight fastballs: Didn’t some of the relievers that were known for their heat sometimes throw twice that many? As some pitcher mentioned some time ago, “You have to remember that that’s a Major League hitter up there, and maybe you didn’t make a mistake at all.”
Why is it matchups are only relevant when it backs up someone’s arguement?
Let me try again: there is no such thing as a bad decision made before anything happens. If Villone does his job, you can’t call it a bad decision. You can call it an unwise one. You can call it a misinformed one. You can say it was made despite the odds. But whatever happens is what the results of the decision mean. It has nothing to do with anything before the change is made. All judgements on whether anything is “good” or “bad” or the “right” or “wrong” call are hindsight. All hindsight.
The fact of the matter is Villone didn’t do what he was supposed to do. This had nothing to do with Mueller’s batting average vs. Villone. This had nothing to do with Mueller’s batting average batting right or left. It had everything to do with Villone throwing a pitch, and Mueller getting a base hit. Then everything that afterward happens has nothing to do with Mueller either. Renteria’s basehit. Ortiz’ hit by pitch. None of those things have anything to do with Mueller or the odds of Villone getting him out or not.
The idea that you can claim it’s mathematically or logically fallacious to bring in Villone in that situation is asinine. Why? Because more happened there then just Villone and Mueller. But you make it sound like the entire inning was decided based on the change to bring in Villone vs. Mueller.
Let’s also not forget that there was a lot that happened after Villone left too. And as one last point, since when does logic play into baseball? You make it sound like baseball “makes sense” if you do things a particular way. That, in and of itself, is a logical fallacy.
That’s kind of funny, since the key USS Mariner writers constantly warn against taking small sample sizes to heart. Apparently the readership doesn’t pay attention.
And Putz didn’t apparently let it bother him too much, which is good. You have to forget such things and just go on. Hargrove made a good decision tonight to let Putz have the 8th inning as the “setup man”. Let’s Putz know that despite yesterday’s loss, they still have faith in him. He came in and promptly had a 1-2-3 inning topping 97mph on the gun. All but two pitches were fastballs.
We’ve had this “Can a decision be bad before the outcome” argument over and over here. You’re clearly of the opinion that only the outcome determines the wisdom of a decision, which is fine. Others disagree. There’s no reasno we need to flog this to death every time it comes up.
#46-
First off, Villione didn’t pitch to Mueller, Hasegawa did. Second of all, I said that the mistake was leaving Franklin in to long and then yanking Hasegawa after one hit. Hasegawa has just been a better pitcher this year than Villone has. Taking him out was a mistake because he replaced a batter pitcher with a worse one, without getting a favorable matchup. Whether or not Hasegawa would have gotten rocked or pitched perfectly is not the point. The point is that leaving him in would have been the wiser move, regardless of the outcome. Before Bellhorn got the double off Villone, I said it was the wrong decision. Even if he had retired the side and we had won, it still would have been an unwise decision.