Game 88, Orioles at Mariners
Thank heavens, the game’s back on and — wait. RHP Daniel Cabrera v RHP Sele? Oooooohhhh.
Congratulations in advance to Rafael Palmeiro on some milestone hit. Boooooooooooooooo!
Bloomquist starts at short. So here’s a question– say you’re Mike Hargrove, and you believe in the hot hand, which is why you’ve been playing Bloomquist every day. How long of a break before you’d assume the hot hand was cold again? Would you try it? And how long does he have to be cold before you go back to not using him again?
And also, where’s Doyle? Fricking play him or let him get his hacks in at Tacoma.
On an unrelated note, Hargrove’s quote in the MLB.com (no link because of their stupid auto-play video clips) —
“I think a five-day break for the All-Star Game would be great. That way you could go home. This way, you spend two days traveling.” — Hargrove on the three-day All-Star break.
Please note how many players have kids in April. So something’s getting done. That’s all I’m going to say.
Comments
239 Responses to “Game 88, Orioles at Mariners”
Re. #157:
Nah, the whole Scott Spiezio for Bobby Higginson trade proposal was my idea . . . as it is, instead of having to deal with Spiezio’s anemic batting line (.053/.182/.105), I’d rather have Higginson and his elbow problems on the M’s 60-day disabled list; hell, if that were the case, then there would at least be a chance for *********** Doyle ******** to actually pinch-hit. Of course, if that were the case, then Mike Hargrove’s mental idiocy would force him to use Dave Hansen (.194/.270/.290) — who I figure isn’t really injured — as the M’s #1 pinch-hitter.
Also, regarding the RBI machine known as Willie Bloomquist, the M’s need to stop playing him before their luck runs out . . . now, with that said, statistics indicate that a person has approximately a 47% chance of doubling his or her money at a roulette table, as long as they place a bet on either red or black, during each spin, which would allow for a hot streak to possibly occur; however, with every hot streak, there is a very, very long cold spell. Yet, for what it’s worth, all of the numbers of the roulette table added together (i.e., 1 thru 36) equal 666, so maybe Bloomquist did, in fact, sell his soul to Lucifer.
Anyhow, my rationale in the thought of trading Spiezio for Higginson during Spring Training regarded the fact that Higginson’s contract ($8,850,000) expires at the end of this season, while Spiezio’s continues on past 2005 ($3,166,667), through 2006 ($3,166,667), and includes a buyout in 2007 ($250,000); it’s sucks that the deal didn’t happen, but oh well.
Furthermore, I was also behind sending Bret Boone ($9,000,000) to the New York Yankees for Chien-Mien Wang ($316,000) — as this was before their signing of Tony Womack — but that idea didn’t pick up any steam.
If there’s a 5th starter in the majors leagues with more of an attitude than Ryan Franklin, I’d like to know who it is.
Tomorrow’s P-I details that the M’s are going with Franklin as the 5th starter to open the second half, meaning he won’t start vs. the O’s in this series. The article says that it was done to get the team the best matchups but Franklin is pissed because it means he’ll have had 10 days in between starts.
He started the next to last game before the break so if they went in exact order he’d start Sunday. Instead he’s starting the game after that! It’s not like they’re skipping his turn even though they do have a day off on Monday… Perhaps Ryan is just pissed cause instead of pitching at Safeco he has to pitch at Skydome — against a team that shelled him the last time he faced them? Is he trying to get traded, released or what with these comments in the press? He says he’s only had 2 or 3 bad starts all year — I count six…
“I thought I would pitch (earlier),” Franklin said. “They’ve got their reasons. It does (expletive) me off. I’ve felt good all year. Other than two or three starts, I’ve pitched good all year.”
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/232748_mbok15.html
Re. #202:
Chien-Ming Wang {Sp. Error!}
Re #202
Bobby Higginson (logic error) — Since Higginson wouldn’t have been any more useful to the M’s than he’s been to the Tigers this year, what would the M’s have gained by this deal (other than having $5.5 mil less to spend in the ’05 budget)?
however, with every hot streak, there is a very, very long cold spell.
Er…not exactly.
If I flip a coin that is equally likely to come up H or T, and get HHHHHH, which is more likely to happen next?
HHHHHH
or
TTTTTT
Answer- they are BOTH equally likely.
Here’s the thing. Willie’s 27, and at an age where he might well be starting to peak. He could be turning into David Eckstein Lite, or Rich Amaral- a genuinely useful backup utility player instead of a 25th guy. If so- he’s JUST as likely to be as productive as Mike Morse would be for the remainder of the year (who wasn’t hitting much more impressively in Tacoma than Willie was in 2002), or (probably) Jose Lopez- maybe even Jeremy Reed (especially if Willie’s spotted against lefties for Reed).
So, it may well be putting him in the lineup is a push. I wouldn’t discount it.
Re. #206:
Ah, but in the case of roulette, the odds aren’t 50%, but rather roughly 47%.
Anyways, regarding Willie Bloomquist, the odds aren’t even near 47%, as the only instance that he has done as well as he has done during the past 8 games happened in September of 2002, and that lasted only 12 games (33 at-bats); thus, for anyone to expect him to continue his tear for much longer is not only inane, but also illogical.
Right- but even then, if I get six reds, six more reds are just as likely as six blacks.
And who says I expect him to be on a “tear”? A .666 OPS or so is a tear? I’m just saying he could be a useful player for a while- and might be a wash with the kids right now (not likely longterm- but Rich Amaral didn’t keep A-Rod out of the lineup when he was ready to play back in the day).
Offensively:
Rich Amaral (.276/.344/.351) > Willie Bloomquist (.264/.319/.345);
Defensively:
Rich Amaral (.978) > Willie Bloomquist (.966);
Baserunning:
Rich Amaral (74%)
Cont. of #209:
All in all, baserunning notwithstanding, Rich Amaral was, undoubtedly, a better player than Willie Bloomquist.
As it is, though, Bloomquist is an okay 25th-man/pinch-runner @ the cost of $385,000 for the year; however, the problem is that he is currently STARTING every day, which thereby hinders the growth and present-day production of guys like Jose Lopez, Mike Morse, and Jeremy Reed, as they are players who actually have the ability to possibly make a long-term impact for the franchise . . . moreover, come this off-season, Bloomquist could start earning anywhere from $1 million to $2 million per season via either arbitration or a contract extension, which would be a complete and utter waste of money and of a roster spot.
[deleted — good ’till the rude ending]
So Larry Stone, whom I expect to know better, argues in today’s Seattle Times that Rafael Palmeiro’s counting stats merit automatic inclusion in the Hall of Fame. If I were a HOF voter, I would say that’s not quite good enough. “Okay, the stats are part of the case,†I would say, “but twll me what it is specifically about this plater that makes him great.†And this is where the argument always seems to bog down. People either can’t get past the stats (he’s great)  or the fact that Palmeiro almost never lead the league in anything (he’s NOT great).
To me, the argument needs to do a LOT deeper.
I would submit that the argument over Palmeiro is much like one over Don Sutton several years ago. Sutton is truly the pitching equivalent of Palmeiro in that he almost never won 20 games, never won a Cy Young Award, never was “first†in anything. He just won consistently over an unusually long career.
Is that good enough?
What got lost there was a chance to talk about what made Don Sytton a great pitcher  what games he won during a pennant race, what key strikeouts he got in the playoffs, how he did against top-caliber opponents, what specific do-or-die moments he had. I want to know the same about Palmeiro.
Longevity is one aspect of a great career. I submit it isn’t an end unto itself.
Well said.
I have been saying for the last 3 years that counting stats don’t get him a free pass to the HOF.
He has never finished higher than fifth in MVP voting. In spite of the problems with the voters, this says a lot. The Sporting News rated him player of the year in 1999 – so perhaps MVP voters were wrong.
His playoff performance is nothing special – 244/308/451 in 82 AB.
He does one thing very well – hit home runs. Two things, he knows how to stay healthy. And both those have a lot of value.
In the end, the voters will forget about the stat inflation in power numbers of recent years and vote him in. But my HOF is for greatness – and he just misses the mark.
dw,
What are the answers to your trivia questions?
Who is this player? He isn’t in the HOF.
Black Ink: Batting – 11 (201) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 164 (66) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 43.7 (111) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 118.0 (114) (Likely HOFer > 100)
203: If Spiro gets himself traded, all I have to say is:
Na na na na Hey Hey Hey Go-oodbye
I think only one person on this thread mentioned Raffy’s fielding, which has been superior, even though he won a gold glove one year while dh-ing. Fielding is certainly something he has done well in addition to power hitting and longevity.
#203:
“They know I don’t like it, but there’s nothing I can do.”
Except whine to the press.
Yes, Spezio is a proven veteran. But if you keep playing the “proven vet”, you’ll never get the unproven rookie ANY proving–you’ll never see what he has. And with an offense starved team, it still makes no sense in the big picture to not play (we’re not even talking about starting) a minor leaguer who was tearing up the league. At some point, he’s got to be played to establish his level, right?
Uh, Rich Amaral came up at age 29- and played a LOT more time in the OF than Willie has, so comparing their fielding percentages at this point is completely bogus.
If you compare Rich Amaral’s minor league stats AT THE SAME AGE and Willie’s, they aren’t very different. Please note that Amaral started hitting well in AA at…age 27. Which is Willie’s age now. Gee, if only I had said “he could be turning into David Eckstein Lite, or Rich Amaral”. Oh, wait, I did.
And 25 points of OBP IS fairly important, in terms of career offensive productivity…
For those of you submitting yourself to the gritted teeth experience which is the post-game show on KOMO last night, I was the first caller on the line with Blowers and asked how you could pinch hit Speizio (after allowing for the fact that he’s a swell guy and good in the clubhouse), he of the .056 BA late in the game when you had Snelling, who has hit at every level sitting on the bench. Then I asked when the M’s were going to give up on Speizio, since they’d just DFA’d a guy hitting almost 200 points HIGHER than he was.
For those of you not listening (and frankly I don’t blame you), Blowers channeled Hargrove (“proven veteran, and he’s had some success before, and he seemed to have found his stroke in his recent rehab assignment at AAA”), then went on to talk about how Speizio had something in common with a lot of players who’ve come here as successes, struggled here, and then gone elsewhere and done well. I didn’t get a chance to respond to that point, but I *did* get to hear Shannon Dreher weigh in with: “I’d at least have liked to see Morse up there in that situation if you’re not going to start him.”
Talk about your breath of fresh air there at the end!
IE-IO
Spiezio.
This is not that hard.
Only 81 pitches in that Harden CG.
#220.
Thanks for the clarifying comment, DMZ. I was unsure on Dreher’s name, did I get that one right or wrong?
Re: BLYLEVEN’S HOF CHANCES (# 100)- Reminds me of something. I was living in Boston in the mid-’50s, and read a column that some local sportswriter had written, telling why TED WILLIAMS would never get a managerial job. (He hadn’t given sportswriters the respect they think they deserve; even insulted them by calling them “the knights of the keyboard.”)
The sportswriter told how sportswriters had previously withheld their support of BOB MEUSEL’s managerial ambitions, because he wasn’t humble enough.
[He was wrong on Williams, but it’s beginning to seem that BLYLEVEN might not overcome their pettiness.]
#213
dw,
What are the answers to your trivia questions?
#1
Black Ink: Batting – 28 (62) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 138 (108) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 47.0 (87) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 191.0 (40) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Sammy Sosa. His average Black Ink and slightly below average Gray Ink belie his monster peak surrounding by years of above-average play.
#2
Black Ink: Batting – 13 (174) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 153 (79) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 50.9 (68) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 128.0 (99) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Sam Rice, who was a RF for the Washington Senators in the 1920s and 1930s and finished with 2997 hits. He’s often been cited as a guy who doesn’t belong in the Hall because he only hit 34 HRs and was merely an adequate glove (though Griffith Stadium at the time was as big as Coors is now, only 5000 feet in elevation lower).
#3
Black Ink: Batting – 9 (234) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 105 (197) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 47.9 (85) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 100.0 (140) (Likely HOFer > 100)
The Crime Dog. The indicators show that he’s a very, very borderline candidate for the HoF. To compare him to Palmeiro is kinda silly, considering that while McGriff was very good for 5 years and good the rest of the time, Palmeiro was very good for ten years and good the rest of the time.
Who is this player? He isn’t in the HOF.
That would be The Hawk himself. A slightly better candidate than McGriff, but he’s just as borderline. Probably should get some props for being screwed over by collusion.
“the problem is that he is currently STARTING every day, which thereby hinders the growth and present-day production of guys like Jose Lopez, Mike Morse, and Jeremy Reed, as they are players who actually have the ability to possibly make a long-term impact for the franchise . . . moreover, come this off-season, Bloomquist could start earning anywhere from $1 million to $2 million per season via either arbitration or a contract extension, which would be a complete and utter waste of money and of a roster spot.”
Very good point, I agree. I think that Mike Morse and Jose Lopez are definately good pontential Major Leaguers. Jeremy Reed however is ALREADY a good if not great potential major leaguer, and I would love to see him with a solid roster spot. Chris Snelling also has the talent on par with Reed but coming off recent injury should he be throwin in, considering his apptitude at injurying himself? Everything has two sides. Don’t just listen to one side. I thought Melvin was garbage, Lou was great, Hargrove is great, but in the end all the manager does is write players names on a card. The players play the game, and the point of the game is to score more runs than the other team, everything else is secondary. “The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.”
Can someone explain this also??
Who is this player? He isn’t in the HOF.
Black Ink: Batting – 11 (201) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 164 (66) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 43.7 (111) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 118.0 (114) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Oh, and on Calabro, he stated he could have done this gig before but figured Waltz should do it, ’cause Waltz could do it better. You’ll notice he didn’t defer to Matt Morrison. (THANK GOD!!) or (Allah be praised!!),or (Whew!!) for you atheists.
1) Cut Calabro a break, he hasn’t done a game in 7 years, and frankly his other gig is a tad more exciting even WITH Craig Elho.
2) That, ladies and gentlemen, was an AWFUL exhibition of baseball. Sele got a few Ks but a number of hard-hit balls were caught. The M’s offense was limited to one solid single, one lucky broken-bat blooper by Willie the Ignitor, followed by a brief demonstration of Little League Baseball by the O’s. Never again did a runner cast a shadow upon 2nd Base.
3) I think Cabrera has shown what “effectively wild” means. Many a 97MPH fastball whizzing over a batter’s head, makes you think. Hitting the backstop on the fly is a nice touch too!
4) Franklin, despite being a whine-bag, has a point – Sele’s going to get 2 starts before Franklin gets to touch the resin bag? Maybe Nellie suggested he try the public complaint technique to get traded to the Yankees.
5) I vote Palmiero in because of career acheivement, sustained HIGH performance at the plate, and top-level defense at his position. You can’t just go on “famous” acts like a 66 HR season. Ray Knight led the Mets to the 86 WS, do we vote him in?
Oh Christ, couldn’t you have just deleted the rude ending? I dont wanna type that all out again. =/
Ah well, I will anyway.
Can I sue for libel?
So you don’t mention the baserunning percentage because it doesn’t suit your arguement. I would also argue that 12 points of batting average and 25 points of on base percentage don’t make a snail’s snot worth of difference in Major League Baseball. Only in the extreme long term could miniscule differences be measured.
How, exactly, is this such a horrid problem? Despite his torrid hitting out of the chute, there isnt a single person here who believes that Mike Morse is going to be a huge impact player for the Mariners in the long term. More then that, there are better shortstop prospects in the minors who are due to arrive here in a few years. Jose Lopez has been replaced one time by Bloomquist, so I seriously doubt Willie is holding him down. I would argue that Boone’s playtime this year has been more an impotence to Lopez’ development then Willie Farkin’ Bloomquist. As for Reed, he’s played enough to show us whether or not he’s going to be a part of the future. Some people have mentioned that we should trade him away for a power hitting CF. I am not one of them. But Reed has had more playtime this year then any of the other prospects. He’s fine.
So in short, Willie Bloomquist is not hurting anything by playing. Or if he is, it cannot be proven. It cannot be proven if he’s helping the team either in the long term. One thing’s for certain, Willie Bloomquist shouldn’t be getting this much ire. It’s not his fault he’s paying well right now and is put in the field in positions occupied by our prospects.
Well, the anti-Palmeiro argument’s here.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/050715
I see several problems with it:
– Only 4 All-Star appearances isn’t actually that shabby, in a league with Mo Vaughn, Mark McGwire, Tino Martinez, Fred McGriff and Frank Thomas all competing with Raffy directly for spots on the roster at various times.
-The “they have to be one of the dominant players of their era” argument was lost LONG, LONG ago, unless you want to tell me guys like Al Kaline, Tino Perez and Don Sutton were “dominant”. Heck, go look at the black ink and MVP awards Dave Winfield has…
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/winfida01.shtml
Basically, he has Raffy’s qualifications (3000 hits, a lot of HR’s, and being elite without dominating)- except he has more All-Star appearances.
Oh, so that’s it; He’s paying to play, and paying well. At least it’s nothing like compromising pictures. 😉
So in short, Willie Bloomquist is not hurting anything by playing.
He’s certainly not helping, though. While Morse isn’t expected to be a franchise player, he is going to be a good hitter and a slightly better than replacement level glove. But in order to be a good hitter, he needs to face hitting on a regular basis. If he’s sitting on ice for 5, 10 games at a time while Bloomquist regresses to his mean, then that’s not helping. Ditto Reed. Dave thinks he’s Mark Kotsay, while I lean towards Rusty Greer, but in either case he’s going to be a really good OF. But in order to learn, he needs to play. Ditto Lopez. He doesn’t play, he doesn’t learn.
It cannot be proven if he’s helping the team either in the long term.
Actually, it can be. Let’s say it takes a player x plate appearances to fully adjust to MLB pitching, at which point they’re hitting at 100% of their expected performance. If Bloomquist has 100 plate appearances that should have gone to Reed, then Reed will need x + 100 PAs to reach that 100% level. Now, the problem is we never know what x is because x is affected by a lot of variables besides playing time. But, if you assume it would take 600 PAs for Reed to adjust and start to extend his skills at the MLB level, and Bloomquist takes those 100 PAs away from him, then he’s going to need to make up those 100 PAs in some way, whether a psyche change (“I’m not going to let this pipsqueak push me out of the lineup”) or winter ball or some other method. But, in the end, you’re going to get an additional set of overperforming PAs from Reed in a period of time when he shouldn’t be underperforming… maybe in 2006, when we may actually contend.
If the M’s are toast, then Bloomquist should only be playing as a pinch-runner and as a day-off sub, not every single day. Eventually, he will regress and Morse/Reed/Lopez will get their playing time. But every PA he has is one PA Morse/Reed/Lopez could have had.
One thing’s for certain, Willie Bloomquist shouldn’t be getting this much ire.
I think that’s one thing everyone on this group agrees about. No one hates him as a person. But his continual presence in the field is a constant reminder of the unfortunate stubbornness of Mariners groupthink and the outddated concepts that the mythos surrounding him is built on. That’s why you get the visceral reaction from people on here. It’s not the player, it’s the idea of the player.
Assuming Willie rotates between 2B, SS and CF, there are (3*73) games left for them to play. Sharing those games 4 ways means they all can play 54-55 games each; assuming Willie plays every day between now and the end of the season (he won’t), Morse, Lopez and Reed would play 48-49 games each.
There are lots of rookies who only start out playing part-time, and it doesn’t kill their careers. I think this is a tempest in a teapot.
re 232
Um, yeah, byt when you mix in Doyle, and I perceive to be the non-systematic way the new players seem to be getting playing time, I think we’re getting into a bigger arena than a teapot.
175 — I translated 171 into Japanese with Google and back to make it clearer:
“Permit decision fixed there is the education which was employed the person in order to work management and does. At all a little knowledge namely what it is not dangerous, but you were wrong with the Willie Bloomquist, you play, it isn’t, rather than? what the losing trap ã‘ ã‚Œ don’t we become? rejoicing when, making a mistake with to obtain the learner and the hard player, many is the fact that you play, when? it is possible, it is what which tries the fact that it wins in the same way in this year other than many games? the large microphone namely you from the ease couldn’t it is and works, you you the web sight are better and ã› ã‚‹ thing can do him who is thought? your present of the hand which copes do.”
I think that pretty much sums it up for me.
Re: MATEO WALKING PALMEIRO (#s 121-127) – Let’s hear it for Raffy. Some players in that situation would swing at aanything to get that 3000th hit; he knew that the walk would help his team just as much.
BTW, in the much-maligned 1887 (the year that walks counted as hits) the scoring officials may actually have known what they were doing.
Um, yeah, byt when you mix in Doyle,
So you’re going to bench Winn (note that Willie hasn’t been playing LF much)? That sure helps his trade value.
Personally, I don’t think they should have brought Doyle up without a starting job for him, but I guess, based on what happened with Choo, the team thinks having rookies rot on the bench so Spiezio can K is just fine.
[deleted, see comment guidelines]
According to logic, we should hope Willie plays badly? For the sake of the future? Please disagree.
He hits doubles: 572, 17th all time. He led the league once, and finished in the top five four times.
He gets hits, period. You don’t get 3000 just through longevity. He topped .300 six times, and finished second and third in batting average.
He knocks in runs. 100 rbis ten times, including nine seasons in a row.
He’s eighth all-time in extra-base hits, with 1161. Come on, is that not an indicator of a great hitter? The guys surrounding him on that list are Gehrig, Frank Robinson, Yastrzemski, and Cobb.
He draws walks, too: in the top 10 eight times, 33rd all-time.
He led the league in runs scored one year, and was second in another; he’s 38th all-time.
He’s 17th all-time in Runs Created. The guys surrounding him on the list are Frank Robinson, Eddie Murray, Mickey Mantle, and George Brett.
He’s a great power hitter. But he’s an excellent all-around hitter, too, very far from one-dimensional. I believe — and I apologize if this offends anyone — that the case against him fundamentally depends upon the perception that he’s not a great player, against the evidence. We never recognized he was a great player when he was at his peak, so he wasn’t, and isn’t.