Game 150, Mariners at Blue Jays
Dave · September 19, 2005 at 3:31 pm · Filed Under Mariners
The M’s take on the Blue Jays in the field formerly known as Skydome.
Just for fun, here’s the Blue Jays records by year since J.P. Ricciardi took over:
2002: 78-84
2003: 86-76
2004: 67-94
2005: 73-75
Comments
197 Responses to “Game 150, Mariners at Blue Jays”
I’m fine with Beltre-Yuni-Lopez-Sexson in the infield next year. Really. I am. No complaints if they break camp that way.
146: If there’s a position to be weak on defense at, it’s LF.
147: The Ms need another slugger, who cares what side he bats on? Besides, do you see a LH MOTO bat in FA?
I wasn’t talking about a platoon in left, just split time because of Doyle’s fragility.
Whew.
Yay! Santiago makes a play! Mariners Win!
JMB—I agree, which leaves catcher and outfield as the improvement areas.
I honestly haven’t looked at the FA list, so no, I don’t see a lefty.
A win. what an odd feeling. thanks to eddie for making sure i am never comfortable in a mariners’ win.
150: Who are they going to get on offense in FA? Who? That’s my point. There’s almost nothing out there that is an upgrade over what we have and it’s all going to cost money. That money is better spent on SP and/or saving up for a big splash signing.
Derek has talked about this — they’re kind of stuck. You’re right, GB, there’s catcher, LF/DH to improve at. And catchers are hard to come by.
re:149
Thanks. I had successfully drank Spezio away. Do you think he might live next door to Boone and they just double up laughing on the 1st and the 15th when they meet at the mailbox?
150: Who are they going to get on offense in FA? Who? That’s my point.
OK, I’ll agree with that. I’d rather have Millwood or Burnett than Konerko. And I’d certainly rather overpay for those guys than for Konerko.
158–The FO will be caught between their desire to save money and their perceived need to DO SOMETHING. So yes, we’ll probably get another Aurela/Spezio type signing, make do with the pitching that’s laying around the shop with maybe a couple of over-the-hill journeymen like Sele. 2006 will be one long instant replay.
I’m switching over to Indians at White Sox now. Tribe up 3-0, end of 4.
Agreed JMB. I just said if you are going to look at anybody for offense, that’s the guy you should look at. Unless you want to roll the dice with Brian Giles. I don’t unless you can get him for a 2 year deal.
Your option at CA is Ramon Hernandez. Likely not worth the money over Torrealba.
162: How about throwing a crapload of money Bobby Cox’s way.
I keep wondering if this is the year to overpay anyone on the free agent market. I think Reed will need another year to develop as much power as we need in center. Likewise with Lopez and Yuni in regards to plate discipline. By the end of 2006 we’ll know what we have in Bazardo, Foppert, Soriano, etc. I just can’t piece together a team in my brain that will compete with Oakland or Anaheim. Maybe that says more about the limitations of my brain than the M’s current personnel and available free agent market.
Ouch, 4-4.
Yeah, and without a homer, too
Giles on a short deal, hitting second, would be awesome. And msb would flip!
It’s all about pitching guys. Rank on our offense all you want (justified), but look at Anaheim. Look at the OPS of the people in their lineup. It’s horrendous. Oakland’s never a known quantity, Texas has no pitching.
I think it’s a safe bet to say the offense will be better in 2006 even if we trot out this same lineup (sans Morse as DH). Only Sexson and Raul are performing up to expectations.
The Ms bullpen should again be near the top in the league. It ALL comes down to the rotation. You have 3 spots sown up with Felix, Pineiro, Moyer, et al. They need two SP and one of them MUST be TOTR. The other can be MOTR, and that likely gets us to ~85 or so wins.
I’d be happy with Giles on a short deal. I’m betting he guns for a 4 year deal though. I wouldn’t want to exceed 2 guanrenteed with option for third.
170–We have two separate arguments going on. You’re right about what they NEED to do. I’m talking about what they WILL do.
I hate the yankees. Especially when their s**t players come through.
172: I find it pointless to argue about what they WILL do. Here’s why:
-We can’t actually know it until it happens.
-It’s often depressing to think about it.
-We’re often wrong.
Who saw us signing Beltre and Sexson last offseason? Considering that Spiezio/Aurilla were mostly Gillick’s influence, I actually like what I’ve seen from Bavasi so far (sans Hargrove).
The best thing they can do is dump Hargrove and Price and the rest of the stiffs, call up Rohn and find a new staff to support him.
The best thing they can do is dump Hargrove and Price and the rest of the stiffs, call up Rohn and find a new staff to support him.
Why? Compare and contrast with the recent roundtabloe on Price.
Dumping Hargrove would be a good idea as long as they didn’t go pick up Valentine/Bowa/retread. I like giving Rohn a shot. Could he possibly be worse than what we’ve had since Lou left?
Is Rohn really an improvement though? I know he’s won a couple PCL Manager of the Year awards, but from what I saw of him I wasn’t impressed. Lots of bunting in weird spots (one particular one that sticks out is having Justin Leone bunt a runner over to third early in the game), and some completely crazy bullpen management. I’m not sure if some of this is the result of playing with a revolving door roster, but I just really wasn’t impressed with what I saw.
Eddie Blows … games that is. He is the Randy Winn of pitching. Half a season great the other half mediocre.The M’s don’t need a closer like that at 6 mil.
This is way late, but in no way is Torii Hunter a free agent at the end of the season. He still has 2 more years on his 4 year contract. He’ll be owed $10.75M next year and $12M the year after. It’s been rumored that he’s on the trading block, but he’s still under contract.
Plus, it would be in the M’s interest to spend that $23M on pitching and keep Reed in CF.
JMB, glad to hear you’re on the Giles bandwagon. Couldn’t agree more!
It is not “all about” pitching.
The top three teams in the AL in defensive efficiency: Oakland, Chicago, Cleveland. (The Mariners are 4th.)
The top three teams in the AL in EQA (offense): New York, Boston, Cleveland. (The Mariners are next to last.)
If it’s all about pitching, why are the Red Sox 10th in the AL in ERA (and the Yankees 8th)? (The Mariners are 7th, aided by their ballpark.)
The Mariners are excellent at fielding, and suck rocks at hitting and pitching. They need to fix both. It’s not clear that pitching is any more of a crisis than hitting.
Also, Anaheim’s offense isn’t horrendous, it’s mediocre: eighth in the AL. It’s a damned sight better than Seattle’s.
On Konerko:
From a BP article earlier in the year:
“Konerko’s splits reveal that he’s anything but a cornerstone hitter. Over the last three full seasons, Konerko has hit .263/.323/.440 away from U.S. Cellular, quietly one of the best hitters’ parks in the league. Those are not adequate numbers from a first baseman. Furthermore, against right-handers on the road, he hit .235/.295/.375 in 2004 and .196/.267/.301 in 2003. That’s a level of performance that’s comfortably below replacement level in what comes to almost 40 percent of the team’s games. Konerko’s level of productivity as a White Sox is mostly illusory, and team brass should keep that in mind when they decide whether to bring him back for next season.”
Giles: .329 EQA
Konerko: .303
Giles: Left-Handed
Konerko: Right-Handed
Giles: above-.900 OPS in a pitchers’ park
Konerko: below-.900 OPS in a hitters’ park
Konerko has age. Giles has everything else, including a position besides DH. He’s the one offensive FA addition I’d be happy with the Ms adding, provided he gets 3 years or less.
Richie is the hero tonight, but any thoughts about trying to reprise the Sexson trade the Brewers pulled off two years ago. That trade netted the Brewers a ton of good talent.
I bring it up because I really hope the Ms continue to get younger and better. Sexson’s value will never be higher.
The Indians, for example, might be willing to part with Michael Aubrey 1B and Adam Miller who is one of the top pitching prospects in the game.
Los Angeles is another team with good prospects including pitcher Chad Billingsley, Greg Miller, and Edwin Jackson
Again, I’m not saying the Ms should trade Sexson. What I am saying is that his value will never be higher, and the likelihood of the Ms becoming contenders over the next two years when Sexson’s skill will be at its height, is small.
(I’ll say again, I don’t want to start trade speculation or suggest wild ass trade ideas. Just want to introduce the notion that the Ms are still a couple of years away at best. We have one very valuable veteran. The Brewers showed two years ago, and the As last year, that trading vets for a raft of good to great young talent has every chance of paying near term dividends.)
Any other ideas on hot young prospects? The Devil Rays, who would never take Sexson’s contract, and won’t factor in this discussion, ARE a team with some great young talent. They could be fun to watch next year if they make the right moves this winter.
Kelly M,
good idea.
call me crazy, but I still think the M’s are only 2 good pitchers, a good bat and a few minors coming up from being a wild card hopeful.
Your idea of getting a 2-3 for one with Sexson at this peak could be a major step towards that. I think the M’s could climb their way back in 3 years and by that time who knows what Sexson’s value would be.
From a PR point of view it is a tough sell. BUT a whole team with guys under 27 (except for Moyer and a few others) that would be an interesting team to watch.
182. I was refering to being competitive within our division, which is all I care about. And again, I said it’s reasonable to assume the offense will be better with the same guys in the lineup. Thanks for ignoring that part and focusing on what I was talking about for next year even when I said the offense this year has been terrible.
The Mariners would be very hard pressed to have a top of the league offense because of the Safe. The best route is get to the top in pitching and defense and hope for a league average offense.
I said look at the people in Anaheim’s lineup. Do they look any better than our lineup? I don’t care what’s gotten us to this point, I’m looking ahead.
Considering how much the Sexson trade came back to bite Arizona in the ass, I doubt any other GM feels up to it. Good idea though.
The Mariners would be very hard pressed to have a top of the league offense because of the Safe.
You mean like 2000 and 2001, where they had a good offense playing at the Safe?
Look, if you have a good offense in a pitcher’s park, guess what? Your offensive players are likely superior to the other team’s players, regardless of what park you are playing in.
I wouldn’t want to trade a known quantity like Sexson for prospects unless it was unbelievably amazing deal. Especially considering the weakness of our offense.
At this point, I want us to concentrate on getting good players. Offense or pitching is somewhat irrelevant. Both of them suck right now.
One argument to make for concentrating on pitching is that the group of Beltre, Lopez, Betancourt, Morse and Reed are almost certainly going to be better next year than last year, as they are all on the right side of the 27-28 peak- so you’ll get some built-in improvement from that alone- whereas the ptching side (outside of Felix) is much more bleak.
I’m with EC — pursue both pitching and offense, ’cause you need both, and see where you can better the better talent/value. First priority should be pitching, though, and I think Millwood is your #1 target.
Brian Giles will be 35 in January. I am always wary of signing a player that old, and this is no exception . . . but unlike someone like (say) Jeff Cirillo, Giles has yet to show any real signs of decline. He’s hitting .303/.427/.491 this year; his career averages are .299/.413/.543. PETCO is a pretty severe pitcher’s park (where 1.000+ favors the hitter, PETCO’s park factors are currently .820 for runs, .772 for HR, and .921 for hits; Safeco’s comparable numbers this season are all close, even slightly better for hitters — .854, .793, .926; it played that way last year as well). Yes, Giles is hitting for less HR power, but that is at least partially explained by the park and his gap power is as good as ever (36 doubles with two weeks left in the season; his career high is 37; 7 triples thus far ties his career high). His averages away from home (where he’s .268/.380/.423) are pretty awesome — .336/.468/.556 for this season. He hits both RHP and LHP well (this season, .284/.398/.426 vs. LHP, .312/.440/.522 vs. RHP). Outside of age and switching leagues, there are no indicators that the decline is imminent, and his offense is perfect for Safeco. I agree with whoever said 2 years + an option year of some sort, but in Giles’ case I am willing to take a risk on an aging player.
As for trading Richie, I agree with whomever said they would be hesitant to do that. HOWEVER, if that trade netted you the same kind of haul Milwaukee got, you’d have to consider it — especially if you could turn around and snare somebody like Lyle Overbay from the Brewers (they’re going to have to make room for Prince Fielder eventually and Overbay is arb-eligible) or Delgado from Florida if they are willing to pick up some of his salary. Maybe even Mike Sweeney, from KC. That offense would hit fewer home runs, but would significantly upgrade its OBP and hit lots of balls into the gap. Since you need a DH, really, you don’t have to trade Richie to justify trading for guys like this, it just gives you the freedom to get rid of Richie if the right deal comes along. Though not a 1B, Geoff Jenkins is always on the block in Milwaukee because he makes more money than the Brewers can afford ($7.5M next year, and $7M in 2007, which will be his age 33 year). He’s always hurt, but might be interesting.
Matsui is intriguing. He has a very strange contract, that calls for the Yankees to outright waive him if an extension isn’t completed by November 15 (and outright release him to free agency if he clears waivers). Whatever team claims him gets an arb-eligible guy you probably have to sign to a bigger, longer-term deal or risk him going back to Japan, but . . . right now there are only four teams in MLB with worse records than the M’s: they “lead” Tampa Bay by 2-1/2, Pittsburgh by 3, Colorado by 3-1/2, and KC by a lot. The point is, 3 of those four are close enough to pass the M’s (and are playing better baseball right now), and none of them have the resources to sign a guy like Matsui, nor would he likely have interest in playing in any of those places. In all likelihood, if Matsui doesn’t sign an extension, Seattle might actually get the guy on waivers. He would be as good in LF as Giles, and he’s younger (turns 32 next June).
Here are some lesser talents who will be available this offseason who might be attractive as signings anywhere from the flier-NRI kind to mid-level: Juan Encarnacion, Kevin Millar, Erubiel Durazo, Brad Fullmer….
I’m not going to hold my breath on Gilesy. If he leaves SD, I bet there are too many NL teams in line for him… as far as cost, this from the SD Trib-Union:
“And what will it take to re-sign the 34-year-old outfielder who is eligible for free agency at the end of the season? A good guess is around $35 million for three seasons. Not that Padres General Manager Kevin Towers and Giles’ agent, Joe Bick, talked money recently when they met over lunch in Pittsburgh. According to the Giles camp, much of the time was spent determining whether Giles wants to remain a Padre. “I do,” said Giles. “But I also know what I am worth.””
MSB – I know Giles prefers the NL, but heading into your age 35 year and wanting a 3-year deal, it would behoove him to think about going to a league where he can DH now and then.
The price sounds a little high to me, but not wildly so. If that worked out to $13M, $11.5M, and $9.5M, with the third year an option the club could buy out for $2M or less, he’d probably be worth it.
well, we can hope 🙂
Pete wrtoe: In all likelihood, if Matsui doesn’t sign an extension, Seattle might actually get the guy on waivers. He would be as good in LF as Giles, and he’s younger (turns 32 next June)
the problem with that is Matsui reportedly is all set to sign the extension the Yankees have been anxiously holding out to him since last spring training….
Yeah, I know it is unlikely that Matsui won’t sign, but until he does, he belongs on this list….