Of Pitching Coaches and Permissions
Jeff · October 17, 2005 at 6:14 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Meet pitching coach number one. Former Mariner. Re-united with previous boss. Apparently has pixelated face.
Meet pitching coach number two. Potential Hall of Famer. May be united with The Boss. Apparently this is Bizarro World after all.
File this under the “too much to hope for” department, but if the Braves will give the Yankees permission to talk to Leo Mazzone, why shouldn’t the Mariners ask for the same? What do they have to lose?
Talking point: “Leo, if you can do for Gil Meche what you did for Jaret Wright, how can they possibly keep you out of Cooperstown?”
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51 Responses to “Of Pitching Coaches and Permissions”
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Wouldn’t Atlanta be absolutely crazy to let that happen?
I’d go into next season with a lot of optimism if we keep around some guys with potential (Pineiro, Meche), sign a few arms (Daisuke or Millwood, and a back rotation guy), and I can’t think of a better mentor for young Hernandez, for both handling his talent and keeping him healthy.
I love Mazzone.
Yes. But don’t you think they’re absolutely crazy to give the Yankees permission to talk to him, as they apparently have done?
rumoring also says that Leo’s ‘best friend’ Sam Perlozzo may ask to speak with him as well…
back in July Klapisch wrote the Yanks were sending out feelers:
With three starting pitchers on the disabled list and another, Kevin Brown, already counting the days to retirement, the Yankees finally have accepted that the path to the postseason will be through sheer-force offense. But the Bombers are dreaming of a second renaissance of pitching in 2006, which, according to their grandiose wish list, includes a new philosophy and a new guru – Leo Mazzone.
According to a person close to the Braves’ legendary coach, Mazzone has been informally and indirectly contacted by members of the Yankees’ hierarchy, asking if he’d be interested in succeeding Mel Stottlemyre. Mazzone has told the friend he would come to the Bronx “in a minute” for the right offer.
Of course, the list of obstacles to hiring Mazzone is long and daunting, starting with the fact he’s under contract in Atlanta. Careful not to encroach on baseball’s no-tampering edict, the Yankees’ trial balloon was floated so discreetly that factions of the organization, including executives in New York, were unaware of it.
[snip]
So, the question is, just how eager is Mazzone to leave? Better question: How motivated are the Braves to keep him? Mazzone has been through a courtship before. In 2002, the Mets were on the verge of hiring him to serve under Lou Piniella. But just as Sweet Lou’s path to Shea was blocked, the Braves moved to snuff out the Mets’ hopes, extending Mazzone’s contract and fattening his salary to an estimated $400,000 a year.
As a former Junior Mariner, I seem to recall former Yankee Stottlemyre being the M’s pitching coach back in the 1970s or so. Any thoughts on whether HE should be brought back? P.S. I’d LOVE IT if we could get Mazzone.
#5 — not as pitching coach; he was a roving instructor from ‘77-81
Why on earth would Mazzone want to inherit this pitching staff? Short of blackmail I highly doubt he could be convinced to move across the country to join a club that may, in fact, hurt his hall hopes. Besides, I think much of Mazzone’s supposed brilliance has everything to do with the under appreciated worth of defense. It puzzles me that no one mentions Jones, Giles and Furcal when talking about how many pitchers have had career years with the Braves. It would be interesting to see how an average pitcher’s defense independent ERA improves under Mazzone’s watch. If it does.
OT– boy, as soon as Eckstein got himself on, you could see that one coming.
Really? You could see a 700 foot home run coming?
Did anyone find anywhere how long that shot was by Pujols?
It will be interesting to see if Houston can come back after that HR sucked all the air out of them. You have to think of Donnie Moore giving up the game in the 1986 ALCS when the Angels had the Red Sox (and Dave Henderson) down to the last strike, and that did not end well for the Angels or for Moore (who committed suicide less than three years later).
The Astros still have Oswalt and Clemens. They’re a long way from dead. I really want to see that pitching crew line up against the White Sox (and see the pale hose have a shot at hitting some shots into those box seats). I just think it sucks when teams clinch a series slot in an away game.
Meanwhile, back OT: it will be interesting to do an attrition war followup on the M’s and the Diamondbacks a few years hence…
LB, I think that sort of theory only works when looking back. So the Cards won tonight in dramatic fashion, but if they lose game six no one will remember how game five ended. I kind of doubt there is any kind of collateral damage from a heartbreaking loss; Houston has as good a chance of winning game 6 as they would if the game ended someway other than Pujols jettisoning a satellite.
#14: I agree that if the Astros win either of the next two games, all will be forgiven and forgotten.
I have to disagree with you about collateral damage. The champagne was on ice. The plastic was over the players’ lockers. The crowd was standing and screaming. Players were on the top step of the dugout, ready to charge the field and celebrate. And then with one swing, the ballpark became a morgue. (Or, for AL fans, Tropicana Field.)
Getting the first two outs in the ninth and then getting one strike away from the World Series on the next batter has got to be a devastating way to lose a ball game. In the case of the Angels in 1986, they had a 3 run lead going into the 9th inning, up 3 games to 1 in the ALCS. Then Don Baylor and Dave Henderson launched a pair of satellites of their own. The Angels’ faces then looked like the Astros’ tonight. The Angels packed up their luggage and flew off to Boston to try to win either Game 6 or 7. They scored 2 runs in the top of the 1st inning of game 6 which were promptly matched by the Red Sox in their half. And then for the rest of the series, the Angels never took another lead.
I would agree that Houston had an excellent chance of winning game 6 or game 7 if they could somehow score some runs, which has really not been Houston’s forte this year.
I’d offer Mazzone the 9 million Bavasi was supposed to spend on a free agent pitcher last winter.
That David Eckstein. He sure is scrappy and gritty–and almost as good
as Willie Blooquist!
10 – on SportsCenter this morning they said it was 412 feet. Looked like 512 to me.
#9– I have awesome powers of prognostication. Just not for the Mariners. Or Lotto.
Baltimore has also asked to talk to Mazzone
oh, and renowned empath Bob Finnigan tells us that Ichiro! is sad and lonely.
oh, and renowned empath Bob Finnigan tells us that Ichiro! is sad and lonely.
This would have been a great Onion article.
Mazzone’s one for the ages, but isn’t Jamie Moyer a no-brainer for the M’s pitching coach job?
I would think that the number of teams that wouldn’t want to talk to Mazzone would be awfully short.
If Mazzone is making in the $400K/year range as mentioned above, would it really be that much of a strain on the budget to offer him $600K/year or so over 5-6 years? He’s the only pitching coach in the world I would give such an offer, though. It would be a gamble, but the potential payoff is that he keeps the pitching staff healthy and effective.
Oh, and why would he want to come to Seattle? The same reasons a pitcher would want to come here–a huge park and an above average defense. That and a guy named Felix Hernandez.
#22
No, it’s not that simple. First, as far as we know he has not expressed interest in the job. We don’t know if he can coach other pitchers and if he got the job and stunk at it, how on earth would the Ms rid themselves of him?
Bad move, IMHO.
on SportsCenter this morning they said it was 412 feet. Looked like 512 to me.
Those official HR distance estimates are crap. They’re using a crude system that’s more than 50 years old, and it’s idiotic.
All I need to know know about Pujols’s homerun was the shot of Andy Pettitte in the dugout watching it happen. His lips could clearly be seen to say “Oh my god.”
Pujols is simply awesome. I was only half watching the game while busy framing up a room in my unfinished basement. I was listening when Eckstein got on base and I was not all that suprised as he is a determined man. I was listening a little closer as Edmunds walked. I was thinking WTF is the deal with Lidge? Then Big Albert literally takes over the box. That man is huge and his wingspan is bordering on unfair. I stood there in front of the TV with a 2×6x10 in my hands because I didn’t dare turn away. One knew the instant he hit that ball it was gone. That is why we play the games. Lidge had been lights out to the Cards all regular season however when it counts, good teams and good players step up the pressure and do amazing things.
I get the benefit of not having a favorite team in team in the running. I get to watch simply for the joy of the game. I don’t care who wins and I don’t have anything tied to a team yet I could still feel the heartache of Houston. Man I love play-off baseball.
20 and 21. Wonder if Finnigan wrote this in response to McGrath’s suggestion a couple of weeks ago about trading Ichiro.
Leo as a Mariner? A great dream, and I think he would be beneficial to Felix and Moyer, and maybe he can straighten out Pineiro. My guess is he won’t come here. Now if the Mariners really aren’t interested in talking to Stottlemyre, as I’ve heard, that would be disappointing, especially if they can’t get Mazzone here. Oh, and good luck to Bryan Price down in Arizona.
Albert Pujols: Coming up clutch in what is supposedly known as “Clutch City.” Houston’s best chance to still win this series comes tomorrow with Oswalt on the mound, I think. Initially, I thought Houston had a great chance to pull the upset, which they still do. But if this series goes the distance, I wouldn’t be surprised if St. Louis won Game 7 3-1, or something like that. Not that Clemens would suck in Game 7; I just think the Cardinals have all the momentum and even the Rocket’s pitching might not be enough to stem it.
Why? And last I checked Moyer expects to be pitching next season, not coaching. I understand the sentimental approach which is the same one that suggests Edgar as hitting coach.
If Moyer wants an organizational job after he retires (and I don’t think he will), he could be a roving pitching instructor or pitching coach for Everett to see how he does. As Russ said, just because he’s an effective pitcher doesn’t mean he can teach it. FWIW, he hasn’t helped any of the other Mariners starters over the past three years.
It seems to me that there are more succesful hitting/pitching coaches that were marginal major leaguers than those who were stars. Sorry if I sound harsh; I just get tired of hearing the mindset that “popular, retiring player” should immediately be handed a job at the major league level without having done anything to earn it.
Things like this drive me crazy because you can see what the Mariners could do to get better, but you know they won’t do it. Just like they didn’t even talk to Vladimir Gurerro, they will simply assume they have no chance at Mazzone and not bother.
God it would be glorious if we got him though. Just thinking about it makes my pants tight!
Those who can do; those who can’t teach.
Maybe that’s not meant to be disparaging.
just thinking about it makes my pants tight!
Okay, eeewwww.
Daily News:
Mazzone has been at manager Bobby Cox’s side since 1990. He has one year remaining on his contract with Atlanta. The Yankees are in position to offer Mazzone a raise from his current salary – believed to be in the neighborhood of $225,000 per season – but aren’t expected to approach Mel Stottlemyre’s salary, which was around twice that.
[just to be accurate, he is not under contract and two years ago he got a 'significant raise' that took his salary above $200,000]
Atlanta Journal Constitution:
The New York Yankees called Braves general manager John Schuerholz last week and received permission to speak with pitching coach Leo Mazzone, according to a person with knowledge of the request.
[snip]
The 57-year-old Mazzone, who has been manager Bobby Cox’s pitching coach for the Braves’ entire run of 14 consecutive division titles, is not signed beyond this season. Braves coaches all work under one-year contracts, which expire next month. The only difference in Mazzone’s situation and that of other Braves coaches is that his salary already was set for next season, if he’s back. Mazzone’s agent, Todd Thrasher, said, “He loves Bobby Cox. Much like a father, he loves Bobby Cox. As far as loyalty, he’s been [with the Braves organization] since 1979. But I can’t comment on anything regarding his contract or rumors; they fly every year.”
NY Times:
Mazzone, 57, is under contract through next season, but the Yankees could entice him with more money and a new challenge. There would seem to be little left for Mazzone to prove in Atlanta, where he has helped nine different pitchers win 20 games in a season. Mazzone is not the only name on the Yankees’ wish list. They have also become enamored with Don Cooper, the Chicago White Sox’s pitching coach, and the Yankees will probably pursue him if they do not reach an agreement with Mazzone before the end of the World Series.
Newsday:
Mazzone is atop the Yankees’ wish list of pitching coaches, even though he has worked for the Braves since 1979 and has never shown much inclination to leave. But one person who recently spoke with Mazzone believes he will leave Atlanta if the Yankees offer him a big raise, which is something George Steinbrenner is inclined to do. The Washington Post reported in yesterday’s editions that the Yankees have a “small window” to speak with Mazzone. Mazzone’s agent, Todd Thrasher, declined comment last night, but he said last week that Mazzone planned to go on vacation this week. Mazzone’s contract expires sometime next month, Thrasher said.
[I wonder if that was the same 'friend' who supposedly told Klapisch in July that Mazzone would 'leave in a heartbeat', much to Mazzone's disgust]
#28, I couldn’t agree more. I don’t know what it is about Seattle that engenders this kind of mindset but it’s borderline irritating at times.
I remember Wilson’s last game and the next day, local fat idiot Softy is on KJR talking about how he’s waiting for the day when Dan Wilson is the next manager of the Ms.
Finnegan again
Reads minds like book but tells us
Yamauchi knows all
Ive read where Kerfeld is up for the pitching coach job in Florida again.He lives up here and brought the mariners Harris,Mads and Sherril and has managed quite a few years and been the pitching coach during some of those stops.Why not him?He seems to know talent are is there hard fellings from him leaving the mariners?
Mazzone would be worth $1 million a year, IMHO. He gives an organization a huge advantage over the competition – certainly he’s worth as much as Pokey Reese, no?
Of course, he’d never leave Atlanta for the M’s, but I’d say there’s an outside shot he goes to NY. Which would be disastrous for the rest of the league.
Om…wasn’t this the same blog that had a lengthy discussion about whether BP was a good, bad, or average pitching coach and boiled that discussion down to ‘well, we don’t really know cuz we don’t really have any good methods to measure how much of the staff success/failure can really be attributed to the major league pitching coach’?
And wasn’t this the same blog that DMZ did a huge pile of work for when he looked at the attrition wars, finding (among other things) that for all the success Atlanta has had with their pitching staff, their attrition rate is right behind ours (Ms 28 injuries for 32%, Braves at 27 injuries for 30%)?
I’m just saying…that if you’re looking to avoid injury AND have success, maybe it’s the As organizational METHODS of handling their pitchers up/down the system that should be emulated as opposed to just hiring a pitching coach (no matter how good his ‘not able to prove by empirical evidence’ credentials)…
bennyyoung said:”Ive read where Kerfeld is up for the pitching coach job in Florida again.He lives up here and brought the mariners Harris,Mads and Sherril and has managed quite a few years and been the pitching coach during some of those stops.Why not him?He seems to know talent are is there hard fellings from him leaving the mariners?”
where did you read that? I haven’t seen his name at all– all I’ve seen are discussions of the managerial candidates, and Mark Wiley’s name– the Sun Sentinel, Miami Herald & the Palm Beach post all say Wiley is likely still in the mix as pitching coach, no matter who is hired. oh, and there was comments in the NY paper that if Girardi got the job, he might take Stottlemyre with him…
I found Ichiro’s comments as reported in the Finnigan piece rather intersting, actually. “This year ['05] was worse than last year,” was one remark—and I utterly agree with him, and thought so myself all year long. “There are tons and tons of things to work on,” regarding a longer comment on how the team played. His thoughts on finishing last two years in a row: “I can’t say that openly.”
The Ms played like _DOGS_ all year long. Miserable execution. Mismatched offensive styles that didn’t make for rallies. Starting pitching weak as wet tissue paper, didn’t intimidate anyone, EVER. En blog here, there’s a tendencey to say, It’s going in the right direction. And it’s true, a handful of young guys have come up through the system which give something to build around. . . . Not enough of them, yet, though. The team no longer knows how to execute, and I’d expect that to infuriate a guy like Ichi as much as the fact of losing. Jeff’s [?] summaries of the Ms short of their expected W-L record by, what, six games by years end: that’s a CHASM, but a distance that entirely fits the way I say this team play. And the issues aren’t all with ‘bad players who will be gone next year.’ Many of the problems lie with personnel we can expect to return as things seem to stand, now.
That article also said that Ichiro will be paying a visit of respect to Hiroshi Yamauchi, to thank Mr. Y for the opportunity to play here, and to report on what he and the team can improve on; this is clearer in the article. What’s Ichi going to discuss?: “I’ll tell him the truth, I won’t lie to him.” Gawd, I hope he does tell the truth than none dares, over here. It would be interesting to believe that what Ichiro has to discuss with Yamauchi has deeper implications than what Lincoln might say to Mr. Y, or Bavasi might say to Lincoln. I’d like to believe that, too. Yamauchi technically is no longer the owner, and even when he was in principal he was careful to exert minimal direct influence. But I don’t believe that he has no influence now; he has as much as he cares to have if you understand who really owns what.
. . . This was an interesting article, and not because it talks about Ichiro’s ’state of mind’ at all; his actual stated opinions of the team and the team environment, even if veiled, were pretty scathing.
remember that Finnigan was quoting from Ichiro talking to the Japanese media, so take the 2nd/3rd hand translations into account.
That article makes me angry. Bavasi and Hargrove seem incapable of providing a positive environment, or even really caring that their star player is unhappy. It seems pretty clear to me that the main reason Ichiro is unhappy is because the team plays like shit too. I really hope they take this to heart and try to get things on the right track next year.
or that they don’t want to assume that because Finny thinks Ichiro must be unhappy, they should comment on what a very private person might (or might not) be feeling?
And… Joe Girardi gets the Florida Managerial job. His credentials: 15 years catcher, 1 year in the broadcast booth, 1 year as a bench coach with the Yankees. Hmmm…. I think even Bob Melvin had a better resume prior to his stint in Seattle. Is there a mandate that all MLB managers will eventually be former catchers?
with Tampa Bay also trying like crazy to get him, and reportedly the Cubs keeping him in mind if Dusty takes off…
Newsday is reporting the Mazzone talks with NY have broken off, but that he is still going to talk to Baltimore…
Is there a mandate that all MLB managers will eventually be former catchers?
Speaking of former catchers, on Vancouver radio yesterday morning one of the sports guys told a story about Dan Wilson. In the 1995 ALCS, he didn’t bother to chase a wild pitch because he knew he couldn’t prevent Kenny Lofton from taking third on the play. Lofton decided to keep going and scored as a result.
After the game, there was a huge crowd of reporters around Wilson in the clubhouse, and this radio guy knew he couldn’t get anywhere near him to get a statement about the game. So instead he went and talked to everyone else he thought might have something to say. But when all was done and Wilson finally got left alone, the radio guy went up to Wilson and said “I know you’re probably sick of talking about this…” and Wilson cut him off. “No,” said Wilson, “it’s okay. I know it’s your job. Ask away.” And so the radio guy will always remember Wilson fondly for hanging around to answer all the questions after a game in which he was clearly the goat.
Wilson has himself a great reputation. How long before someone offers him a managerial gig?
If Dan Wilson ever wants to manage, he’ll have the opportunity to do so. Same with Edgar as a hitting coach or moyer as a pitching coach. I know there are some marnier fans who fancy all three on the staff.
Atlanta Journal Constitution sez Leo is all but gone to the O’s
sigh. typing while watching tv. that link would be:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/1005/20mazzone.html
So the TNT has an article today that really p*sses me off.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/5269414p-4782613c.html
Slaton & Chaves deserve more than this. I mean, this is the kind of crap that happens all the time at MY job, to prove that management may SAY they’ll promote from within or want people to have opportunities to grow within their organization, but their actions tell a completely different story. Sometimes it’s accidental, and maybe it is in the case of the Ms not being straight with Slaton & Chaves, but honestly, it’s not THAT hard to treat people with respect and given this article, and if there’s even the tiniest grain of truth in Finnegan’s article about Ichiro’s treatment under Bavasi/Hargrove….(yeah, I know having the slightest grain of truth in a Finnegan article is a stretch)….well, I’m starting to see a disturbing trend that will impact our ability to sign/retain good coaches OR players. You gotta treat your people right, cuz it’s really a pretty small industry and word gets around real fast if you don’t.
New post on this o’er yonder