Best Mariner ever deathmatch kick-off
Top ten advance to actual elimination polling. Feel free to debate criteria, make a case, stump for a guy, or suggest sadly overlooked alternates. This list was based on leaders in counting stats and outstanding season achievements (so Charlton’s on there as the saves leader). There’s no criteria by design: if you want to vote for Dan Wilson because you think he best exemplifies the qualities you want to see in a Mariner, so be it. If you want to vote for Harold Reynolds because he’s the sharpest-dressed, that’s fine too. I’m intersted to see how this sorts out.
You can vote for as many players as you want in this first round
Let the debate begin!
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Not to taint the pool, but I think the serious candidates jump right out: AD (who gets huge points for service in the dark days), Griffey, Randy, Edgar, Moyer, Alex. I’m sure I’d be voting for Ichiro if this poll was held in a couple years.
And to me, as great as Edgar was for so long, Griffey’s decade for the 90’s was one of the all time great 10 year spans. Or so it seems to me. Who turned six in 1990 and wasn’t overly objective throughout.
If you ask this question in, say, twenty years I wonder how the answer will change? Unless he gets injured, I suspect ARod is going to end up the most impressive in overall numbers (unless you give Ichiro his NPB numbers). He and RJ are pretty much the only ones on the list who are certainly headed towards the hall.
I assume you’re intentionally not including people like Varitek and Ortiz who once belonged to the M’s but didn’t appear in uniform for the big club. Because actually, if you want to pick players that exemplify the Mariners, it’s the all the good ones who got premptively traded, and all the draft picks who never were, that most make this team what it was and is.
It doesn’t surprise me whatsoever that Edgar is currently leading the pack tho. Edgar’s prowess on the field and his beloved nature off the field coupled with the lifelong Mariner status has to give him a serious boost over anybody else.
The best all around player was Griffey though, no question in my mind. Alex may be the best shortstop that ever lived, and that says a lot, but Griffey played better defense. Alex isn’t bad at D, but Griffey was just better in a much more important defensive position.
I don’t understand the poll results, or something isn’t tracking right. The leaders only have 10-20%, but you can vote for as many candidates as you want. That would mean for each of Griffey, A-Rod, Edgar and Johnson, 80%+ of voters don’t think they deserve CONSIDERATION as the best ever.
Are people just voting for one player? Is the system not counting properly?
Griffey gets into the hall based purely on what he did before his string of injuries.
Unrelated: [deleted, ot]
Just for fun, here’s everybody’s WARP as a Mariner:
griffey 105.2
edgar 104.7
randy 64.3
buhner 60.1
moyer 57.7
arod 55.1
wilson 45.1
davis 42.3
garcia 42.3
ichiro 41.0
boone 39.4
reynolds 37.3
moore 32.5
langston 31.5
hanson 27.9
beattie 24.9
nelson 19.0
schooler 16.5
sasaki 14.5
charlton 12.8
I’d like to be able to vote for people to be removed from this list as well. Nelson bailed on the Mariners before he was traded to the Yanks and Boone was a jerk off the field.
As much as Alvin Davis deserves credit for holding the fort, it’s hard to rank him, Moyer, Buhner, or any of the others above Griffey/Randy/Edgar. Alex is the most productive of the bunch but isn’t really a Mariner. And Ichiro will be up with the Big Three in a couple years, if not now.
Regardless of all that, though, the real turning point in Mariner history wasn’t 1995, it was Spring Training 1989. That is how ten-year-old fans get hooked for life.
This is just umbelievable that Griffey doesn’t have 90 percent of the vote….Comparing Edgar to Grifey is quite lame….From his first game in the dome to his last, Griff provided an elctricty to Seattle that it has never seen before or after
I’d say that peak Rodriguez is at least as good as peak Griffey on defense (and at a more key defensive position) and is arguably the better hitter. However, I’d vote for Griffey because he was with the Mariners much longer (hence twice as much VORP while in Seattle). But I’m still trying to convince myself to vote for Martinez because I like him better.
Yeah, but Boone had one of the top Mariner performances ever in 2001.
Best single seasons for M’s position players, by VORP:
119.9 A-Rod, 1996
111.1 A-Rod, 2000
102.4 Edgar, 1995
99.8 Junior, 1997
95.9 A-Rod, 1998
95.1 Junior, 1993
87.8 Junior, 1996
87.2 Edgar, 2000
87.2 Edgar, 1997
86.7 Edgar, 1996
85.8 Junior, 1998
85.3 Boone, 2001
80.9 Ichiro, 2004
The big three really do stand out.
Oh, and in compiling that list, I discovered I wish I’d voted for Alvin Davis.
I’m really shocked that
a) including that poll toasts all the formatting and
b) how concentrated the results are. I’d anticipated cutting down to ten, but even a cut of “insignificant” would bring it down to seven at this point
On the skewed results: because of the multi-voting, the polling’s a little confusing up. Edgar isn’t on 16% of the ballots, but it appears he’s getting 16% of the total votes cast. I believe (but can’t check) that he’s pretty much on every ballot so far, along with Griffey (and Alex/Ichiro, to slightly lesser extents)
Who would include Charlton or Nelson as the “best Mariner ever?”
In this list, or in voting? I assume the first, because no one’s voted for them.
From the post: “This list was based on leaders in counting stats and outstanding season achievements (so Charlton’s on there as the saves leader).”
Personally, I would have so totally voted for Bill “cuffs” Caudill (sp) simply for having the best nickname ever.
You can vote more than once. That should be fixed.
b) how concentrated the results are. I’d anticipated cutting down to ten, but even a cut of “insignificant†would bring it down to seven at this point
Actually, it doesn’t surprise me that much. I voted for the big five (Junior, Edgar, Randy, A-Rod, Ichiro), and if I had it to do over again would probably only pick the first three of those, and expect that it would be hard for many fans to see it otherwise. When you’ve had ten years of Junior and Randy, and fifteen of Edgar, it’s hard to make a serious argument for anyone else as “Greatest Mariner Ever.” The only questions are (1) whether Griffey’s and Johnson’s advantage in dominance outweighs Edgar’s advantages in longevity and good attitude prior to departure, and (2) if you go with ten-year dominance, which of those guys you prefer.
If the question were “whom would you consider as one of the greatest?”, I could see that getting a broader scattering in the vote tallies.
(Oh, and re. Alvin Davis: My personal Dark-Ages favorite was Ruppert Jones. ROOOOPPP!! ROOOPPP!!)
It looks like I have two options, w/r/t voting more than once:
- close the poll and re-open it when I find someplace that doesn’t have this flaw
- shrug and chill, since this first one totally doesn’t matter
I’m going for #2.
That said — if anyone knows a good way to set up random polls for the future, drop me a line.
Personally, Derek, I would prefer a weighted poll, where we could rank one Mariner #1, then another Mariner #2, and so on and so forth. In my opinion, there are three battles here: Griffey and Edgar grappling over #1, Unit and ARod fighting over #3, and Moyer, Boonie, Alvin and Ichiro! duking it out for the other four positions. Langston and Bone fill out my Top 10. Among those three sub-groups, I couldn’t tell you exactly how they should all be slotted. I’m leaning towards Junior at #1, but I could by swayed by a strong case for Edgar.
If this was for “Best Player To Play For The Mariners At Some Point In His Career,” I think we’d have to add Rickey Henderson to the list. He did play in one of the best games, the 19-inning game in 2000 that Cameron (who, incidentally, seems to be a Mariner in spirit even now) ended with a home run and Jose Mesa somehow managed not to lose in the 17th & 18th or so.
One other thing: if we could somehow count single-GAME vorp’s, maybe that’s another reason to add Cameron to the mix for the #10 spot. Four homers on May 2, 2002.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark_jayson/1377704.html
I’d like to see a poll of the *worst* Mariner ever. Now that would be interesting.
Oh, that’s coming.
I wish Cameron were on the list.
A-Rod seems a cut above Griffey to me, but I know it wasn’t viewed that way when they were both here. I think that’s ’cause Griffey was there first, and was always the team’s Reggie Jackson, whether Alex outhit him or not.
Of course this makes no sense, but I wish I could vote for Julio Cruz for sentiment’s sake.
RE. #18
“Cuffs” Caudill is good, and I nominate Bob “Scrap Iron” Stinson if there’s a Best Nickname contest.
I think VORPs and WARPs are great and all but how about a little consideration for the Mariner who left an indelible mark on the game and our vernacular that will live long past any of the accomplishments of your Ichiro’s and A-Rod’s. That player is Mario Mendoza. Respect.
Surely that’s an “inedible” mark?
No Joey Cora? Where’s the crying love?
Well with every HOF destined Mariner likely going in wearing a different uniform (except Junior, although it’d be hilarious if he went in as a Red) we need to celebrate any long lasting Mariner Achievement we can.
As far as Lil’ Joey, I think we all know what place crying has in baseball.
Mike Parrot!
Gorman “Those are Buzzards circling above my head ’cause my arm is dead meat” Thomas.
Re: Cameron’s 4 HR game – check out the play-by-play over at Retrosheet.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B05020CHA2002.htm
It’s cool how many records the team set in the game.
Rick “I swear I don’t know where that tack came from” Honeycutt!
Are we defining the best player to put on a Mariners uniform, or the best Mariner?
Regarding ‘best player’ A-Rod has a great chance to finish among the top ten players in the history of MLB, and is clearly the best player signed and developed by the organization. OTOH he showed zero loyalty, left at the first opportunity, and likely doesn’t even remember that the ever played here except for marketing purposes.
Kenny would top this list if he’d stayed healthy, because even while he left acrimoniously, he was still an outstanding, home-grown talent without whom the teams rise to respectability in the ’90s would have been unthinkable. But his tailing off in performance for physical reasons knocks his stock down a tad.
Randy Johnson wasn’t signed here, didn’t shine at once, was a ‘challenging’ teammate, and stuck it to the org on the way out the door. He as a dominating force for a few, key years here, but arguably his seasons in AZ were better. He’ll finish with gaudy career numbers, and his World Series performance for the ‘Backs will put him in the Hall, but it’s difficult to see him as _this_ team’s best ever talent. He gave us a couple of great, great seasons, that’s all.
Edgar is, to me, the clear best Mariner. His numbers are borderline HOF, and if he’d gotten to play for someone other than Grizzly Williams when he came up he might have cumulated enough to get in. He was an outstanding hitter with one approach, then in late career was an outstanding hittier with another approach when the team needed and asked him to make the adjustment. He was arguably the key player because the _best performing_ player in the Ms (too few) postseason performances, and played through every winning season this organization’s ever had. He played here his entire career, too. When it’s down to final voting, I’ll still be calling his number because he’s the guy whom, thirty years later, you look back and still remember as ‘our team’s key guy.’
Where’s the love for Julio Cruz???
I added a few other players just to make the vote more interesting.
Edgar and especially Randy have to get bonus points for carrying the team down the 95 stretch; without that, this debate would be on ussdevilrays.com.
This is easy for me: Griffey.
If it came down to an arguement about who is the best player to ever play for the M’s, it would come down to A-Rod versus Junior. That would be an interesing debate.
I just don’t think of A-Rod as a Mariner. If he would have re-signed with the M’s for at least a few years before bailing, then prehaps it would be different.
Also, Griffey has to get some props for being the face of the organization during a bad time. When A-Rod was putting up huge numbers for the M’s, he was surrounded by other great players. A lot of those years, he wasn’t even clearly the best player on the team. With Griffey, he just meant more to the club, and was that soul of the team for many years.
Easy decision.
I don’t give much of a damn about loyalty, which in my opinion is a concept that only means something when a player had a choice in the first place. Where is the obligation to be loyal to an organization you never chose? Once you’ve been a free agent, then loyalty starts mattering.
A-Rod left, but he gave his best while he was here, even when he knew there was a good chance he would go. He didn’t bitch ike Griffey, or tank like Johnson. I’ll give him respect for that. And it doesn’t impress me to say he left “at the first opportunity” when the first opportunity was an offer that more than doubled our offer. How much is loyalty supposed to be worth, anyway?
If the question is, performance plus character plus face of the Mariners, then it’s Edgar, hands down.
Y’know, I really couldn’t help but give Mike Schooler a little love. Seems to me they always played “School’s out forever” when he came in to close a rare Mariner win.
I don’t see why Ichiro shouldn’t get votes, DMZ. A-Rod and Ichiro have both had 5 productive seasons as a Mariner.
I also don’t know about A-Rod being the best ever at his position. Honus Wagner’s kinda slipped into the Days of Yore, but he was a great, great player. .327/.391/.466 makes you think Derek Jeter- until you realize the league average player slugged .350 during Wagner’s career. Wagner completely pimp-slapped his league, year in, year out as an offensive player, in every category that was important in pre-lively ball (AVG, SLG, OBP, SB, RBI, XBH) in a way that A-Rod hasn’t (granted, A-Rod has the tougher league).
That’s the spirit #42!
Ichiro v Alex in five years:
Of those five years, Alex’s rank in all-time Mariner offensive contribution in a season, using VORP: 1,2,5, 22,23
Ichiro: 13, 24, 46, 47, 60
That’s why.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the poll is about what these players did as Mariners… because if it was “anybody who ever was a Mariner” then Ricky Henderson, for example, would have to be on it.
I already voted, but if I did it again after contemplation, I would only vote for Edgar and Griffey- I think those two are head, if not shoulders, above the rest. And I would give the top spot to Edgar edging out Griffey. (Despite F-Rod’s proclamation that that makes me “quite lame” – I’ll live with that.)
Lenny Randle! Watching him try to blow a ball foul was PRICELESS! Tommy Pacoriek for the funny nose glasses….
Re: Alex Rodriguez vs. Honus Wagner
Their translated stats (accounting for park factors and playing in different eras) from the Davenport Translation cards at Baseball Prospectus look like this:
Rodriguez: .306/.389/.596
Wagner: .312/.381/.566
In other words, it seems that, rate-wise, their offensive games are so similar, the difference almost certainly comes down to how well each played defense. It’s going to be awfully tough to make those comparisons, though, since I don’t know of anyone who’s actually seen Honus Wagner and Alex Rodriguez play defense. But up to this point in his career, A-Rod is definitely in the discussion of best SS ever.
But, if Alex Rodriguez never moves back to shortstop, it’s not even close in terms of career value, because Wagner played about 600 more games at SS than Rodriguez has. (Unless, like EC mentions, you remember that Wagner’s league wasn’t as tough, and you penalize Wagner pretty severely for that.)
I can’t help but give this one to Randy Johnson. Think back to the Mariner’s of yore and how much better their record was when he was pitching versus the rest of the season. I know that the numbers were so gaudy that they would not have made the playoffs if you replaced Randy with a replacement level pitcher.
Who did they trot out to beat the Angels in ‘95? The same guy the Diamond backs trotted out to win the world series.
Among offensive players, Edgar and Griffey are a tie for me. Griffey had dominant defense and was an offensive force, but I am confident that Edgar’s approach at the plate rubbed off on his team mates and made them all better; plus his longevity, yada, yada, yada.
I’m probably in the minority here, but I give this one to Randy. And it’s a personal bias I have toward great pitchers and how much I believe they improve a team’s chances over great hitters.
Hans Wagner led the league in slugging SIX TIMES. He led the league in OPS EIGHT times. There is no significant category in which he didn’t totally own the league in the pre-Cobb era, as a shortstop. No other shortstop was even remotely comparable to him for a CENTURY. Alex, for all I love him as a player, and for all I think his move to third is unfair, came after Cal Ripken, and would never have been a SS if he’d come up before Ripken.
For what it’s worth, reports of Wagner’s defense were stellar. In particular, many observers report that he could dig balls out of the ground with such alacrity that he would frequently fling a cloud of pebbles down to first along with the ball. Obviously personal accounts should be taken with many pebbles of salt, but he did play in the era of gloves like a handful of hot dogs, and pictures confirm that he was a physical freak, with long, long arms.
Also keep in mind that Wagner played 1887 games at short (and almost 900 games elsewhere), whereas ARod is about 600 games short at short — with presumably a thousand or so left to go.
If the Yankees had left him at short, I would be thinking seriously about ARod as the best ever at the position, but the fact is they did not. Wagner stands alone. I think Honus Wagner is the best player who ever lived, easily in the inner circle with Ruth and Cobb.
Edgar Martinez is another of my flawed heroes, my favorite Mariner ever, possibly the best hitter the M’s have ever had but clearly not the best player. He didn’t play defense. The most charitable point of view would be that he didn’t play BAD defense and thus hurt his team (like, say, Frank Thomas with the White Sox), but still–Griffey is still clearly far in front of him. I would be comfortable with a Randy vote too, though his early years were so erratic, and his best years, like ARod, were elsewhere.
Griffey.
“Hans Wagner led the league in slugging SIX TIMES. He led the league in OPS EIGHT times.”
From 1900 to 1920, the population of the US went from 76 million to 106 million people. Back then, only white guys were allowed to play. Now, the population of the US is about 295 million, and not only can Americans of all backgrounds play in MLB, but there are significant contingents of players from the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Cuba, Japan, etc. Also, during most of Wagner’s career, from what I can tell, the NL only had 8 teams. That means he had about 57% as many players to beat out to lead the league in something.
So, basically, back in Wagner’s day it was easier to lead the league in something. Wagner’s still great, but I think looking at the leaderboards from way back when will mislead you as to exactly how great he was when you’re comparing him to players of today.
Who is Hans Wagner? Is he any relation to Thai Cobb?
Give me a club of 8 Rich Amarals and I’ll show you the AL pennant.
I’m torn between Bill Stein and Larry Milbourne.
As has been mentioned, there shouldn’t be too many candidates for the best Mariner ever. Even Alvin Davis, our first Mariner to win a league award (ROY) doesn’t compare favorably to Edgar, Griffey, RJ, or A-Rod.
Even though Edgar has a league award named after him, since he is the only one of that group who is retired, it doesn’t really separate him from the group. I think he falls just short. Pitchers are a different animal, so I’d not consider RJ (though he wins most valuable pitcher without debate). Griffey and A-Rod are really close, with Griffey getting more weight for length of service. I think I have to go with Alex to partially makeup for when A-Rod got edged out of the MVP in part because both Seattle writers voted for Griffey (Alex overplayed the humble part, deferring to Griffey as the better player.).
Since a worst ever is coming, can you break this (and that one) out by position? or manager, GM, owner?