Game 11, Mariners at Red Sox
LHP Jamie Moyer, who hasn’t pitched well at Fenway Park in… I can’t remember the last time he had a really good start in Fenway, versus RHP Curt Schilling.
Fenway’s one of those parks I really figured they might move the rotation to try and skip Jamie. It’s not just the Red Sox fielding good offenses — he gets shellacked here. You might as well have Jeff Harris (were he here) go out and take one for the team or something.
The team’s 5-5! 5-5! Of course, they started off last year 5-5 too. But the guys we were hoping would have good seasons (Lopez & Co) are doing really well. Beltre’s hitting is still broken, which is driving me crazy, but whatever.
Moyer in Fenway. Yeaaaagh.
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I just can’t understand why they don’t see the need to protect Moyer from ballparks in which he has proven over a sustained period he cannot pitch effectively. This isn’t advanced performance analysis, or hardcore stat geekery, people.
Jaimie doesn’t pitch well at Fenway? Hmmm, maybe that’s why we only had to drop Darren Bragg to get him in the first place.
You can’t credibly compare the 1996 Jamie with the 2006 Jamie. Or even the 2003-05 Jamie.
What a trade THAT turned out to be! Almost makes up for some of the horrible trades we have made (almost)!
Apologies and the usual caveat to delete if this is too much of a derail, but since it’s mentioned in the main post:
I don’t want to be down on the guy, and it’s definitely still small sample size theater…but at what point do we decide that Beltre is too broken to fix? Have any of you who have seen him who know how to analyze a swing better than I do, seen anything to indicate that he’s turning things around?
I’m particularly curious as to whether anyone who watched him during the WBC and the good results he was having there are able to identify whether that was due to a differing level of competition or whether he was doing something right then that he isn’t now?
With the number of years and money that we owe the guy, it’s a differnet realm that just cutting bait like Spaz or Cirillo… I really hope that he turns into the superstar that he has the potential to be, but in the mean time I’d settle for him hitting .250+ with 20 knocks, and his glove out at 3rd for 140+ games…
Hard to say. Jeff Cirillo was given two years, Miguel Olivo about a combined full season. It’s directly proportionate to past success, I guess. My guess is they’re just stuck with Beltre, because, if he really has tanked, his contract makes him untradeable.
Jim, go to the M’s schedule and count off every fifth game after today. You will be pleasently surprised the number of times that the fifth game lands on the first or last day of a homestand. One game at Fenway is worth two in Arlington.
#2–just a note, Moyer was 7-1 and in demand by several teams at the deadline back in ‘96, and the Sox were thrilled at the time to get Bragg, a player that Duquette & Kevin Kennedy were sure was “a gritty, good-fielding, Lenny Dykstra-type outfielder” — “We had to improve our outfield defense in one of these deals,” said manager Kevin Kennedy, “and we definitely did so with Darren Bragg. He’s the guy we wanted all along and we fought hard for. There were other teams interested. We talked to Texas quite a bit, but the talent didn’t match up. Seattle was the best scenario for us.”
“The chance to go to a great city like Seattle and help a team in a pennant drive is what this job is all about,” said Moyer. “I hadn’t really heard Seattle as a possibility, but there were rumors, even though some of those start in a barroom somewhere.”
Not really, because the game at Fenway shouldn’t be a necessary cost.
re: Beltre… he’d have to hit .150-.200 for an entire half season for the team to even consider giving up on him. Granted, the Yankees let Giambi suck for an entire year (granted, he spent half the season on the shelf) to the tune of 208/342/379, kept him and he rebounded. Whether or not that’ll happen to Beltre, I think the precedent’s there for the organization to let him blow for an entire season, especially if he’s providing good D at 3B.
As for Moyer… yeah, I would’ve worked the rotation to pitch him yesterday in Cleveland, but then again that would entail having a 6th starter to get Felix his 4 days rest, and for reasons like this I wouldn’t have sent down Jeff Harris either.
#5– FWIW, Blowers just opined that Beltre needs to relax– in his mind, the only difference between the WBC version of AB and now isn’t stance or swing, it’s his approach and how aggressive he is right now…
With the day off Monday, we coulda slipped Moyer ahead of Felix last night, and then Moyer’d be set up for the first and last games of the coming homestand.
Oops, it’s a nine-game homestand. I guess he’ll get two starts anyway. But he’d miss Fenway.
Beltre’s problems are all upstairs. You’re going to be paying him whether you give up on him or not, so you might as well keep hoping that he gets over whatever ails his mind when he’s at the plate.
In other words, you don’t give up on him until after 2009.
Also, I’d just like to point out that its about 75 degrees with blue skies and no humidity here in North Carolina, and I’m sitting in back yard watching this on the laptop and enjoying the beautiful weather.
Take that, rainy land.
We’ll see how you like this when the humidity and the temperature are around 90 come August, Dave.
Actually, it’s supposed to be 91 on Sunday. That’s why I’m rubbing it in. Spring apparently lasts two days this year.
Yeah, my post probably wasn’t worded as it should’ve been, Dave.
With his contract, you can’t really “give up” on him per se; but at what point do we simply resign ourselves to having overpaid for nice defense at the hot corner and don’t count on much hitting from him?
I was really hopeful that he’d get some momentum from his performance in the WBC and be able to build some positive progress on that. If he gets a whiff of success, it SHOULD help him if the issues are all mental like you say (i.e. no holes in his swing or whatever), but that’s not happening so far, it doesn’t seem.
I still think he has a ton of potential to turn back into a great hitter (as long as you’re not expecting a repeat of his monster 2004). I just hope eventually we can put it back together, and I agree that people calling for his head aren’t thinking that position through.
But then Moyer would get stuck with two starts on the next roadtrip instead of one — and the extra start would be at New Comiskey, another hitter’s paradise.
Why is letting someone other than Moyer take one for the team better than letting Moyer take the hit? If you start a replacement level pitcher like Harris, aren’t you essentially giving the game away too? Either way, it counts as only one loss in the standings.
Under the current pitching schedule, Moyer is in line to make 12 home starts and only 6 road starts before the All-Star break. If the cost of keeping that schedule is one bad start at Fenway, that is a fair price to pay.
Yeah, well, it’s raining and miserable here in Omak, Washington…But at least I got the pruning done in time to watch the game.
LF: Manny Ramirez, CF: Dustan Mohr, RF: Wily Mo Pena
That’s an ugly defensive outfield if I’ve ever seen one.
22. Don’t know much about Mohr, but he made a nice little diving catch last night.
Man, these Red Sox just aren’t all that good. Lowell, Gonzalez, Bellhorn, Mohr… these are not good major league players. Pena has obvious flaws. Youkilis doesn’t have a lot of power. It’s basically Ortiz, Ramirez, Varitek, and blah.
Bellhorn = Loretta in that last post.
Here comes the DP
#24: This is the all new “pitching and defense” Red Sox.
As for Pena, the Sox are concentrating on what he can do well rather than on what he can’t do. It’s pretty standard Jamesian thinking.(And Trot needs a platoon partner since he is lost against LH pitching.)
Opening the game with a double and a walk makes me sad.
If Moyer gets out of this inning without a run scoring, I’ll have high hopes for this game. Otherwise…
#24: And if Crisp weren’t on the DL, Mohr would be in Pawtucket.
Wow. That’s as good a curve as Jamie’s got. Great location, had Big Papi totally fooled.
Sorry, more of a circle change.
Not bad, old man.
Hope springs eternal, yo.
Nicely pitched, Jamie.
Correction: Opening the game with a double and a walk and then getting out of it makes me very happy and relieved.
He just wanted to get into the soft underbelly of their 3-4-5 hitters.
Playing the flayball game in Fenway is VERRRRRRRRY dangerous. Unsustainably so.
FLYball. Aaaaaagggghhh.
Beltre Bain Theatre:
“Annie? Annie? … Who is this chick Annie? Get the broad out of your head! TIME!!!”
BRAIN. AAAAAggggh.
#38: If so, how does Schilling do it?
Theo actually showed him some stats before he signed off on the trade to convince him that Fenway was no longer a HR park. It favors doubles and triples. Since the construction of the luxury box club behind home plate in the 80’s, the jet stream went away.
Hit the ball to right field. Geez. Beltre just looks like total crap.
ESPN thinks all the pitches were a bit down and away on him.
Is this really a challenging problem to solve? It seems like this is something a major league player and a major league hitting coach should be able to work through, especially now that everyone knows to pitch him this way.
And Carl will give Schilling no credit for the K, since pitchers never get credit from Carl. So Carl must have wanted to K there.
Actually, the only two pitches he swung at were up and in (barely fouled off) and on the outside corner, belt high. The K came on a pitch in the strike zone, but as always, he refuses to do anything but try to pull the ball, and couldn’t get his bat around on it.
Regarding #24-25, I’m not sure how anyone who knows anything about baseball can say that Loretta is “not a good major league player.” And Lowell’s been hitting pretty well thus far — he was an offensive force only two years ago.
Interesting, i guess the gamecast pitch locator isn’t always accurate.
Everett Brain Theatre:
“Yuniesky? Yuniesky? Who is this guy Yuniesky? GET THE DUDE OUT OF YOUR HEAD!!!”
GREAT defense by Lopez there.
Couple of well-hit balls for guys who just aren’t all that good. and are not good major league players.
The Gamecast operator had to run to the john, so he did it when he could most confidenly predict the pitching pattern to a Seattle batter – low and away to AB
I think Schilling will do better with a small strike zone than Moyer will.
Man, I always get so confused about which shortstop Alex Gonzalez is playing where anymore.
#54: Kevin Millar dubbed this one “Sea Bass” when they played together on the Marlins.
Valle just mentioned something Dave said at the feed – Willy Mo hits them long and far in BP. I’ll try to get to the next Boston game at Safeco very early to see him.
Actually, I guess Dave talked more about how WMP screws himself into the ground TRYING to hit them.
Hey 47, you know who else was an offensive force only two years ago?
Remember, the “offensive force two years” ago logic was used to justify the Aurilia and Spiezio signings.
And two years ago Beltre jacked 48 balls out of the park….
58. Sometimes it works out, though. Just look at Jim Thome.
Aurillia and Spiezio didn’t come with Josh Beckett attached. Beckett makes Lowell a good deal.
Youklis, the Greek God of Foul Balls.
Wow, that was one excellent at-bat. Youkilis basically made it impossible for Moyer to throw him a strike.
Jesus, 50 pitches through 1 and 2/3rds? I’m tired of feeling fortunate to get 5 innings out of an M’s starter.
Moyer needs a low pitch count inning or two, or the bullpen is in for a loooooong night…
Moyer figures if he can get up to 100 pitches quickly, they’ll take him out and he won’t get a loss at Fenway.
so, relying on Rizzs, just how cloooose were those pitches that missed?
#67: Pretty close, but I think it’s the same zone for Schilling. I don’t think Tschida’s going to appreciate Moyer’s walking off the mound before he gets the called K.
consistancy is nice, but the corners are more important to a Moyer than a Schilling
Moyer was the last pitcher I’d have expected to pull that walk-off stunt. I think part of his success is kissing up to the umps. But I suppose, if the zone is so tight that he can’t possibly pitch his game, he may go to a confrontational approach.
I didn’t see it, so I don’t know how fast he was off the mound, but speedy on & speedy off has always been a hallmark of his pitching
DON’T BAREHAND THE BALL CURT!
Is it sad that when I saw the trivia answer was Foxx, McGwire, and Palmeiro I thought, “Double-X and double steroids?”
I thought the exact same thing
For whatever it’s worth:
Seattle Offense, First Three Innings (by opposing pitcher):
4/3 Colon: 0/9, 4 K (loss)
4/4 Lackey: 8/16, HR, HBP, 2K (win)
4/5 Weaver: 6/14, 2 2B, W, HBP, SB, K (win)
4/6 Loaiza: 7/15, 2 3B, HR, 2 W, 2 SB, K (win)
4/7 Blanton: 1/9, 2 K (loss)
4/8 Zito: 1/10, 2B, 2 K (loss)
4/9 Harden: 0/9, 4 K (loss)
4/11 Lee: 0/9, W, 5 K (loss)
4/12 Byrd: 5/14, 2 2B, 3B, 3 W, 3 K (win)
4/13 J.Johnson: 1/10, SB, 3 K (win)
4/14 Schilling: 1/9, 3 K (TBD)
Seasonal performance, 1st 3 innings: 30/124, .242/.288/.379
Since 4/7, 1st 3 innings: 9/70, .129/.164/.200
W-L Record with 0 or 1 hits, 1st 3 innings: 1-5 (plus tonight)
W-L Record with 5 or more hits, 1st 3 innings: 4-0
W-L Record with 2 to 4 hits, 1st 3 innings: 0-0
So it’s all or nothing, and tonight looks like one of the nothings.
Did niehaus just say “that was magical year two years ago, 1984, when the red sox removed the curse…”
That was a nice play by Youkilis and Schilling.
(It was a “nothing” for early offense, I should specify– we’ll see how the game as a whole turns out.)
Don’t slide into first! ARGH!! Ibanez is supposed to be a saavy veteran, not some over-enthusiastic pony-leaguer.
#76: Sadly, yes, he did.
Dave’s fastball is a little short these days.
Niehaus’s budding senility is not fun to observe.
More hard-hit balls for guys who just aren’t all that good and are not good major league players.
What does that make Moyer?
He’s still a ways away from the last 10 years of Harry Caray.
81. He’s just an old man who makes old man slips. He’s got a long way to go before he’s senile (you should meet my grandparents…)
Pena is Boston’s Beltre.
83 – exactly, here’s to hoping that he never slips like that
I guess moyer works better with guys on 2nd and 3rd
85, yes, I was thinking that. But Tschida wasn’t giving Moyer that call earlier.
Moyer is to pitching as Niehaus is to announcing
He just makes old man slips…
Moyer just makes old man meatballs….
So have we actually had a lead early in a game this year?
89. Oh, come on. I’d still take Niehaus’ call over any other announcer in the world. He knows how to get his audience excited.
That was a pretty ugly passed ball, Jo.
I wasn’t saying Niehaus _is_ senile in terms of your average senior citizen. But relative to the world of baseball announcers…
I love how the Fenway crowd starts a chant of “Lets Go Red Sox” without the scoreboard’s telling them to.
Wild pitch, apparently.
#93: Two words: Vin Scully. He’s the gold standard. (Jon Miller is the silver standard.)
Sawx fans will chart Let’s Go Red Sox at any ballpark. I’m not even sure Boston needs to be there.
But relative to the world of baseball announcers…
Have you heard McCarver lately?
Jon Miller has been stumbling a bit lately, too.
#98: True. Also “Yankees [Stink].”
But Safeco fans are usually sheep. No incitement, no excitement.
Wow! Fun!
Jon Miller used to be the silver standard Then he started working with Joe Morgan. And when they get in the booth together they are too focused on themselves and old stories to bother with the game in front of them. Silver standard is still Ernie Harwell. Second best of all time behind Vin.
Nice play by Beltre, there. I thought he dropped the ball, but on the replay I could see tht he just reacted faster than humanly possible.
#102: I meant Miller on Giants’ radio, not the ESPN games.
Ah, Jon Miller. My second all-time fave after Niehaus. How that man keeps from smacking Joe Morgan upside the head everytime he says “slidepiece”, I’ll never know.
#104: Fair call, he’s pretty good then, though even for that I prefer the Astro’s guy whose name I’ve forgotten and Gary Thorne over Miller.
He’s the gold standard.
Scully, Harwell, Brickhouse, Jack Buck. Jon Miller is just a bit below them.
First year in Denver the Rockies had Charlie Jones doing PBP. Gawd, that was terrible.
85 pitches for Moyer after 4; 45 for Schilling. I wonder if Moyer makes it through 6.
#98, 100– hmmm.
Boston, franchise est. 1907.
Seattle, franchise est. 1977.
I preferred Buck over Brickhouse, but not by much. Both were fantastic. Though for pure unintentional comedy Coleman down in San Diego takes the cake.
“[B]eltre…just reacted faster than humanly possible.”
I think you may have pin-pointed his problem at the plate.
Gary Thorne, to me, is a hockey announcer. He does a good job with baseball, but I’d rather have him scream “OH HE HIT THE POST!!!”
I’ve heard old tapes of Dizzy Dean calling games. Just a different time, different language. Those things are gold to linguistics majors.
47: Thanks. I was going to make a similar comment. I was advocating to bring Loretta to Seattle back when we still had Cora and Loretta was stuck platooning in Milwaukee.
#109: 1901, but before that they were Braves fans.
#112: Yeah, and to Sports Media majors.
Every time I hear Scully calling the ‘86 World Series or Buck calling the ‘91 WS it just makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little more when I hear McCarver or Morgan open their mouths.
No TV on Monday and no doubt Extra Innings will be blacked out in Seattle anyway. Meanwhile, Boston fans get 162 games in HD on NESN. Grrr.
#116: 86 World Series is now available on DVD.
So far this season, MLB.tv hasn’t asked me to verify my location, so I can probably watch Monday’s game there.
when will Hargrove let Jo hit after Sexson…an rbi on a groundout is the best Rex can muster…shudder
Just yesterday Lowell went home in a similar situation against the Blue Jays. They got the runner at home but started a big inning for Toronto.
#119: Don’t they use your credit card billing address for that?
I remember Gary Thorne calling a Paul O’Neil home run in the 1995 Division Series. He was so excited for the Yankees that I’ll never forget – or forgive him.
Johjima’s at bat is very much like Youkilis’ (except for that last pitch, while I was typing).
120: Better still, just swap out Everett for Petagine.
Last season they asked for an extra billing address for confirmation every time I tried to access a live game. It never worked.
Manny is in a serious slump.
So, I just woke up from a nap, how are we looking? IS it a good game at 2-1 or are we getting lucky its not a blowout?
Yes, let’s all recap the game entirely for anyone who comes by and wasn’t paying attention.
Well, crap, here comes the rain. And we’re only one out from this game being official.
WALK SOME PEOPLE JAMIE!
Nobody tell Todd about the monkey streakers, okay? It’s his fault for sleeping.
128. We’ve been pretty lucky, but, hey, I don’t care.
Not asking for a recap DMZ, just asking for the overall tone of the game. That’s one thing that play by plays and box score’s won’t say.
Dammit, I like monkeys
Another hard-hit ball from Lowell.
So, we can’t legally get Monday’s mlb.com game in Seattle?
Miller, Kruk, Kuip and Dave Flemming are an absolute delight to hear on the Giants radio broadcasts. Not a weak link among the four. Unlike the M’s, which is Niehaus and three tinfoil links.
Man, they must have to repaint that left field corner after every couple of games.
131: That was you?
Hey, I just figured that we’d be getting blown out by now. Yes, my faith is shaken when Moyer is pitching in Fenway.
#140 – Luckily, seeing that we had a 67-year-old hurler penciled in for the start, the Red Sox ran Johnny Pesky, Mike Greenwell, Carlton Fisk, and Ellis Burks out there. Needless to say, the M’s have so far walked a knife-edge between a close game and a blowout.
141: But they forgot to start Dewey in right.
OK, here’s the recap:
Jake McMinn of Somerville, MA, is on a date tonight at the game, hoping to get lucky with one Chandra Buckley. So far tonight, Chandra has had five beers and professed her desire to “totally do” Kevin Youkilis four times — while mispronouncing Youkilis’ last name three times. She’s called Wily Mo “Wiley Moo.” She’s currently puking her guts out in the ladies room on the 3rd base side.
Jake is hoping the rain ends this date very, very soon.
And that’s your recap.
He’s on the bench lookin to Pip Wily Mo.
Pip Wily Mo.
No, I think that’s Chandra’s second choice of she can’t get to Youks.
dammit Ichi!
Johjima needs to take lessons from Tek: how to catch a pitch on the corner.
Letting a little spit-up breath ruin a good date is typical for some guy from Boston.
147- I want Jo to get a lesson on catching the ball period.
So far I have no issues with Johjima’s defense. Where is this negativity coming from?
He appears to stab at the pitch in the lower part of the zone, potentially taking away some strikes and potential passed balls.
#150: The A’s announcers called him out for “stabbing” at borderline pitches and causing his pitchers called strikes.
#150- That’s what I’m trying to figure out. He must be a Miguel Olivo fan or something.
I mean common Joh is 3 times better than anyone of the 7 schumcks we sent to start behind the dish last year.
Didn’t the guy win a bunch of the NPB equivalent of Gold Glove awards?
#153: No argument, but there’s still arguably room for improvement in some facets of the game. Did you think Schilling’s called strike 2 was over the plate? Rizzs and Valle didn’t, but Tek caught it very artfully.
He has missed two balls already this year that went between his legs without touching the ground.
Where did Moyer, aka “Strike-out machine” come from?
#154: NPB Gold Gloves mean less than Jeter’s. Hideki Matsui won one, and he’s awful. So did Petagine, and he shouldn’t even own a glove.
I tend to think those borderline calls are given more because of the pitcher than because of how the catcher “frames” the pitch. Catchers try to frame _every_ pitch, and umpires from the lowest levels learn to pretty much ignore it.
I don’t buy this as a legit complaint against Johjima’s catching abilities.
155- Hell no, that was a purely fabricated strike because of Tek yanking it into the strike zone. And to think Tek was the future behind the dish for the M’s in a galaxy far far away..
#159: Yes, but umpires expect the frame, not a stab. And yes, Schilling (and Moyer) will get calls that Jeff Harris will not. But Fenway’s a Questec park, if I recall correctly. So the plate umpire will get graded on this game.
Jamie Moyer strikes out the side??? 8 Ks with this strike zone??? WTF? Go James.
We need two runs followed by the 40 days and 40 nights deal *right now*.
#163: Which would result in the runs being taken off the board and a Red Sox win.
Moyer is unconcious. I have no idea how he salvaged this start.
Hitting it to Wily Mo is actually a pretty good strategy for the M’s. He gave up a HR off his glove a couple of days ago when he backed into the bullpen wall.
Well, at least Beltre seemed to realize that they’re just throwing him fastballs on the outside corner and actually tried to hit it the other way for once. Maybe one of these times he’ll actually get ahold of one.
#167: If Schilling had a slider, he could have thrown it in the dirt and Beltre would have swung at it.
beltre got it into the outfield! bust out the champagne!
Beltre has come out positively Cirilloian this season.
More small sample size goodness: Michael Garciaparra is hitting .333 at Double-A.
Look out, Yuni.
Manny now has “old player skills.”
Soriano should have faced Tek. Tek is a better hitter from the right side of the plate.
1 pitch, 2 outs.
Now that’s efficency.
Schilling is emptying the tank this inning.
So, in the 9th, I figure we get Petagine, Ichiro, Lopez against Papelbon.
176. Hopefully we get more than just those three…
Soriano right now is pitching better than King Felix.
should we be channeling Dave’s Papelbon evaluation of earlier this year?
Does anybody have any idea on if/when the mariners would move Rafi into the rotation?
I vote yes.
And now, here comes the pitcher “every team has one of”, John Papelbon.
Nobody special.
At all.
That was nasty.
How dare Petagine be imperfect.
No need to channel it.
I think Dave’s evaluation has been hanging in Papelbon’s locker since spring training.
Good to have a thread to remind me why Red Sox fans are my least favorite in baseball.
Papelbon is missing his location, badly. That’s why it’s good to throw 95.
LOPEZ is hot. Like, sexy.
I dunno. Even bad Papelbon looks pretty good.
Considering it was Moyer at Fenway, the fact that the M’s lost by just 1 (and only allowed 2) is actually pretty impressive.
And finding a RH reliever who can throw 95 for an inning, now that’s rare…
/end sarcasm.
#189: No question, he’s way better than bad Foulke.
The Red Sox have now won four games in which they scored fewer than three runs. I don’t think they did that three times all last year.
Since they won their Series, the Red Sox fans have turned from adorable, poetic drunks into annoying, arrogant drunks.
Red Sox fans until 2004:Shane McGowan with the Pogues::Red Sox fans after 2004:Shane McGowan after the Pogues fired him
#191: You realize he’d be in the rotation if they had their druthers, right?
Yeah, but then Shane MacGowan formed the Smoking Popes … one of the best band names ever.
He also wouldn’t be as good there. But we’ve had this discussion before, and I have no desire to try to stop the kool-aid drinkers from repeating what they’ve been told.
#194 no free room in that rotation, what with the quality starts they’ve been getting from wells, clement, and wakefield.
There goes petagine’s perfect season.
#196: Agreed, his ERA would be non-zero if he were in the rotation. But he’d be better than either Wells or Clement.
Smoking Popes weren’t McGowan’s band. He formed Shane McGowan and the Popes. The Smoking Popes were the bridge between the pop-punk of the 70s /80s and Green Day.
They did have a great name, tho.
#193. Perfect analogy.
You realize he’d be in the rotation if they had their druthers, right?
Who’s stopping them? Aren’t “they” in charge of the team? It’s not like the Red Sox have no holes in their team that they couldn’t stand to trade a pitcher to get a position player in order to open up a spot in the rotation for Papelbon, if they were really so high on the Papelbon kool-aid.
#202: There a several million things stopping them, which are the dollars they are paying to each starter. No one wanted to take Clement or Wells during the spring trading season or they would probably be gone. Except that… Foulke pretty much stunk all of last year, and this minimum wage kid has both the stones and the stuff to pitch in one run games out of the pen. For the Sox, this is good, but 200+ IP from the guy would be better.
Beltre and Everett: the new bottom of the order.
There a several million things stopping them, which are the dollars they are paying to each starter.
Two words: sunk cost.
#205: The question was asked why the Red Sox didn’t make a trade to open up a rotation spot for Papelbon. The money means the players in question are tough to trade. The cost is not sunk for your trading partner. And in terms of what they’d be taking back in trade, the Sox are pretty deep in position players right now. (Which is good for them, since they are short a starting centerfielder and rightfielder right now.) There are 3 guys on the 40-man roster who could play 1B at the major league level in addition to the extra outfielders.
But given the need out of the pen this year, it’s pretty clear that Papelbon is helping his team.
Okay LB, you said:
For the Sox, this is good, but 200+ IP from the guy would be better.
If they truly thought this was the case, they would put Papelbon in the rotation, regardless of what those starters are getting paid.
As it is, I imagine the Red Sox front office has a copy of this year’s PECOTA projections, which say that Wells and Clement will be better than Papelbon this year. So I really doubt they are that high on getting Papelbon into the rotation. If they were, they would’ve done something about it.
He also wouldn’t be as good there. But we’ve had this discussion before, and I have no desire to try to stop the kool-aid drinkers from repeating what they’ve been told.
Sir! Yes Sir!
Yes, I’m sure they have PECOTA, ZiPS, and proprietery projections for every player in baseball in the Sox front office.
In fact, I think the statheads and even (gasp) the scouts in the Red Sox front office know their players better than I do and better than the projections from last year’s 39 IP (in MLB) and 28 IP (in AAA) do.
Interesting irrelevant reading: The Strange Case of Jody Gerut
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060413&content_id=57587&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp
Gerut has always been a bit of an enigma. This is just, weird.
#210: It sounds a little like the Dotel situation last year:
Doctors: You’re okay; you can pitch.
Dotel: I want the TJ surgery now, please.
Not that weird. As I read it, Jody thought he could beat a demotion with a trip to the DL.
“Good to have a thread remind me why Red Sox fans are my least favorite in baseball.”
Generalize much? I give you credit for admitting to one bias.
Since when does preference = bias?
Mint chocolate chip is my least favorite ice cream. Am I biased against it?
#202
My take is that they like having lots of SP depth. They also tend to hold younger players back until they can make a fairly seemless transition. Kevin Youkilis has been shipped to Boston and back 100 times before getting a chance. Dustin Pedroia probably could have handled the starting job this year but they sent him back down to polish his game. Why not let Papelbon start in the pen? Also, he probably is the 6th best SP on the team at this point in time. Doesn’t mean they don’t believe he isn’t worthy of a shot.
“Two words: sunk cost.”
That’s only valid if you have an equal replacement for Papelbon in the pen. They don’t. They do have a substitute for Papelbon in the 2006 roation…
#216: Theo seems to like depth wherever he can get it. It’s why he had Petagine stashed in Pawtucket last year and why this year Stern, Mohr and Pena are backing up the starters in the outfield and why JT Snow and Hee Seop Choi are backing Youkilis up at 1st.
Not having depth in the bullpen last year cost him the division title. A mediocre closer instead of a sucking Foulke would have meant at least one more game won.
“Jamie was great,” Carl Everett said. “Was Schilling great, too? I never credit pitchers. I make my living off pitchers. But Jamie was great, and he got squeezed a lot, too.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002931435_mari15.html
Does Carl not realize that Jamie is a pitcher?
Carl is more broken than Adrian, both mentally and baseball-wise.
And Carl giving credit to Jamie is doubly hypocritical, because Carl doesn’t believe in dinosaurs either.
219- Well according to that quote you posted, he does realize that Moyer is a pitcher..
Dave,
I’m sorry. But this time you have gone too far.
Mint Chocolate Chip is a favorite ice cream flavor to thousands. Nay, Millions. It has been a beloved staple for many cultures, so by disparaging the flavor, one can only assume you have a similar disdain for the peoples that relish it.
I, for one, am outraged by your wanton disregard for their feelings.
Mint Chocolate Chip Ice Cream, in its wondrous variety, ranges from that pale green right through light melon, all the way to New Jersey Radioactive Waste Neon Green. It is a veritable rainbow of greenness, symbolizing peace, love an harmony for all.
Well, you can do what you want with us. But I’m not going to sit here and listen to you bad-mouth, the United States of America. Gentlemen!
USS Mariner is a wonderful site, but it has taken a major, possibly irrevocable, hit in my esteem. I shall now be forced to take my ice-cream-buying dollar elsewhere. So there!
Our boy Randy Winn and his noodle arm are starting in RF for SFO tonight.