Random Mariner mid-week news
DMZ · April 19, 2006 at 8:32 am · Filed Under Mariners
Guardado hurts inside. You’ll hurt inside if you read Steve Kelley’s column on Beltre. In the PI’s notebook, there’s the same Eddie-type story, but you also get Gil Meche’s decreased velocity, Hargrove on Beltre.
Oh, and Hargrove says it’s not a center-field platoon.
On ESPN.com, Nate Silver puts King Felix #8 on his list of baseball’s most valuable players.
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Someone needs to bring a dictionary to Hargrove and open it up to the page that describes platoon. Maybe he is employing the word in its military sense, where a centerfield “platoon” would inlcude army infantrymen played by the likes of Tom Berenger and Charlie Sheen. On the plus side, Berenger could serve as an emergency catcher, and Sheen could pitch a little relief. And he could not be worse than Woods was last night.
At least woods was throwing the eliminator and not the see-ya-later.
Speaking before Tuesday’s game at Safeco Field, Guardado recalled how on the plane flight home from Boston, he’d periodically yell out an expletive in the middle of his card game.
Wow. I guess the two of clubs kept ending up in Tourette Guardado’s hand. You couldn’t trump your mother with that.
I’m not liking Hargrove’s new ’stick with the guy who can’t throw strikes’ approach to middle relief.
Grover hasn’t given up on his guys, and feels Willie brings energy to the team.
btw, what’s the deal with the italics in the Kelley piece?
They say if try hard enough you can still hear the ghost of Matt Thorton at night at Safeco Field, “Ball Four, take your base”….Last night his name was Jake Woods!
FYI: Thorton is tied for second on the team with 4 walks. The leader of the team is Freddy with 10. Difference Thorton has 5 IP, Freddy has 15 IP….
#5, I think he’s going for a sad literariness. I know I cried.
The TNT noted that Hargrove will give Borchard a start later in the week — at DH to rest Everett. If I was either Lawton or Petagine I would sneak out of Safeco early, say in the 7th inning (its not as if they will actually play), and let the air out of tires on Grover’s car.
Or do a little brake work.
I believe three of Thornton’s walks were intentional.
In the dugout, Grover’s starting to get that paranoid Brian-Cashman look from a few years ago. It’s hard to pick up on with his limp expression, but it’s there, it’s there, and for good reason!
Has Silver seen Felix pitch lately?
Maybe Silver only saw innings 3-5 of last night’s game.
No Beltre on the list!?
“David Bell was built for Safeco’s wide power alleys.” — Kelley.
If you say so.
15…I really was a little stunned. Is Kelly seriously contending the Bell was/is the answer? Is he kidding? Even last year by Beltre, dissappointing though it may have been, was better than most years by Bell. Am I nuts?
Even using the dreadful HR-RBI measures, Bell only looks good in comparison to the guys we’ve had since.
Even Corey Koskie would have been a better choice, and no one’s suggesting we should have gone after Corey Koskie.
Kelley knows as much about baseball as I know about fluid mechanics.
The difference is that I know I don’t know anything about fluid mechanics.
I’m surprised there wasn’t some trivial Sonics topic he couldn’t squeeze a column out of.
Why do they even let him write about the Mariners?
Why do they even let him write?
Imagine him writing a children’s story.
“There was an island and it had treasure on it. It was called Treasure Island. And on this island, pirates had buried treasure. The island was in the middle of the water. And the treasure was found there.
“There were pirates looking for treasure. They sailed looking for Treasure Island, hoping to find treasure there. They did not sail to the Treasure Peninsula, because they were looking for an island. They did not sail to the Treasure Coast of Florida, despite the presence of a stripper named Candy that I met while covering the Super Bowl. While I found what I was looking for in her, this was not the treasure they were looking for, because it was on an island.”
etc. etc. etc.
oh, and by the way, I’m sure you’ll all like to know that Dick Fain has “turned the danger light on” for the Mariners….
Finny was a natural athlete, with grace and a preternatural sense of whatever playing field he stepped on to, and seemed to absorb the rules of any new game with the thirst of a dry sponge.
Finny has died. The only game he wasn’t able to play was the one society set up for him, with its flexible and inflexible rules, its biased referees, and shifting playing field.
Finny was killed. But Gene didn’t kill Finny. We all killed Finny.
– A Separate Peace, by Steve Kelley
That you even referred to them as fluid mechanics largely proves your point. Since fluids are rarely static, you’re really talking about fluid dynamics.
So, here’s what you need to know. As long you remember that water is non-compressible, and can describe the difference between turbulent and laminar flow, you can hold your own in a conversation with other laymen. If an actual engineer enters the conversation, you’re sunk, but otherwise you can sound knowledgeable for about 15 minutes.
ok. I have to stop listening to KJR. They are now all pissy about keeping Felix on a pitch count, and ‘babying him’…
I don’t understand why Grover is so reluctant to call what he’s doing a platoon. I like platoons.
Toronto has two platoons just in their outfield. They’re open about it. So far, in 55 plate appearances, their strict L-R platoon in LF has produced an EqA of about .410. Platoons can be good things.
But Grover’s isn’t. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t want to call in a platoon – so people won’t check to see if it’s working.
DW let me help you out — this is how Kelly would write that:
##
There was an island and it had treasure on it.
It was called Treasure Island.
And on this island, pirates had buried treasure.
The island was in the middle of the water.
And the treasure was found there.
##
reminds me of high school when I would tweak the line spacing on papers to get them up to 5 pages.
I always had trouble keeping my papers short enough. There’s always more random information you can stuff into a paper such that it sounds relevant.
There’s currently a film showing that illustrates this point well: Thank You for Smoking
The problem with Grover’s non-platoon platoon is that he is using the wrong players. It should be Borchard-Reed if he is going to use one at all. He admitted that having Bloomquist play center on Monday prohibited him from pinch-hitting for both Willie and Yubet. Everyone here knows the easy solution to this problem, why does Grover not recognize it? Has he developed a Bob Melvin-like crush on Willie?
But Borchard’s a lousy hitter from the right side. We only have lefties who can play CF.
I’m guessing the reason Hargrove would give for not starting Borchard in place of Reed against LHP is that Borchard hits better left-handed. Though that raises the question of why Bloomquist is the only right-handed hitter on the bench. It’s not only poor managing, it’s poor roster construction.
#29 — True. But, if you do want to run a platoon, Borchard, in my opinion, is a better choice that Willie. I would prefer to see Reed start against lefties at least half the time.
Derek needs to jounce Kelley’s limb.
Yeah, the article on Beltre causes hurt inside. So since Felix has now been labeled most-valuable-property #8, let’s ask: What’s wrong with his last three starts? Last night his GB-FB ratio was 2-4. Yeah, he struck out nine, but used too damn many pitches to do it. And there’s that pesky matter of the 2 HR.
I only got to sit and watch the fifth inning, where Felix was lights-out. He got out of the inning on eight pitches and made Mark Teixeira look silly. He looked like the dominant Felix we’ve all come to love. What was different in the rest of the game?
#30 — It is not necessarily poor roster construction. How many pure lefties in the regular lineup need pinching-hitting? Ichiro and Ibanez don’t,or at least they will not be lifted for pinch-hitters. Everett switch-hits (if that is what you want to call it). Reed is the only lefty regular who Grover thinks would require a pinch-hitter. So a lack of right-handed pop on the bench is not big concern. Besides, look at Rivera’s current OPS. He is one hell of righty pinch-hitting option.
Another strike against Grover in my books.
I’d rather pinch-hit for Everett than Reed. Does Everett even have a hit against a lefty, yet?
I have to say, I’d rather read a Steve Kelley column than listen to Dave Henderson broadcast. The column only takes a few seconds to skim over and snort at (clearly, Mike Schmidt is the real 3B we need), but Hendu is always there, lurking in the background, ready to spurt out another gem right when you’ve got a mouthful of food.
Last night was the worst I’d ever heard him, going on at tremendous length on at least three separate occasions about how great it is to make an out, how Willie’s trying to make an out here, how everybody in the clubhouse is looking for the out, how much congratulation they’re all going to dish out after the out, how important it is to make an out… And of course Willie makes the out and one run comes in when we’re down by five. Nancy HATES it when I swear at the television.
Maybe Kelley is being sarcastic…
Just kidding.
I must have missed that huge power spike in Bell’s numbers when they moved across the street to Safeco.
To me, the remarkable thing about Hendu’s Ode to Outs was Rizzs’s incredulous reaction to it. He suggested that perhaps the batter is up there trying to hit the ball hard, and didn’t accept Hendu’s repeated insistence that the batter’s goal in that situation should be to make an out.
It was a good moment for Rizzs.
the 1999 split for Bell is particularly nice–
10 HR in the Dome (+ 4 on the road)
2 HR after the move to Safeco (+ 4 on the road)
Except that Rizzs was joining in the general slobber-fest over Willie. He’s a sparkplug, dontcha know.
The 3rd base position is quickly turning into what happened to the M’s in left field from the mid-90s on… revolving door. Except this revolving door is a $100 million one.
more playing with numbers– that fabulous 2001 year for David Bell at the made-for-him Safeco?
Home
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB AVG OBP SLG OPS
66 226 29 58 16 0 7 27 9 32 1 .257 .289 .420 .709
Away
69 244 33 64 12 0 8 37 19 27 1 .262 .316 .410 .726
You forgot the columns for “grit” and “playing the game the right way.”
You forgot the columns for “grit†and “playing the game the right way.â€
And “energy”.
I have to say, I’d rather read a Steve Kelley column than listen to Dave Henderson broadcast
This is definitely true for me as well, but only in the sense that I’d rather be tortured by the French instead of the Germans because I prefer their food.
Meanwhile, would giving Beltre a big ol’ handful of Xanax before the game run afoul of MLB restrictions?
Props to Steve: love his colorful use of empty language tarted up with those sensual italics. Which is to say, I love Kelley just as long as he doesn’t come back to Portland.
But enough of this merry banter and on to waxing wroth, not about ranking Felix 8th, but Pujols 1st. No huge argument, but why isn’t it even close when comparing him to Alex? If Alex gets hot sometime later in the year and Pujols gets cold at the same time, then will it be close? Was it close before the season began? The two certainly had comparable years and I (and probably most of us) would argue that being a near Gold Glove quality third baseman is more valuable to a team than being a near Gold Glove quality first baseman.
#46- Well, in this case, I think it has to do with age, that Pujols is already this good at age 26. That whole list was about ranking guys to build your team around…
Platoon is a great movie.
The two certainly had comparable years and I (and probably most of us) would argue that being a near Gold Glove quality third baseman is more valuable to a team than being a near Gold Glove quality first baseman.
That doesn’t seem like a very obvious conclusion to me. Both third basemen and first baseman field hard hit grounders to a corner. There are more right-handed batters in the league than left-handed batters, so there are probably more fielding opportunities in that sense for third basemen.
However, in addition to that, first basemen have to participate in almost every play in the infield, receiving throws from all the infielders, and have to help with holding runners on first base. It takes a wider set of skills to be a great third baseman, but in terms of just value, I think that defense at first is comparable to defense at third. (Plus, in terms of a replacement-level argument, replacement-level defense at first base is probably not as good as replacement-level defense at third base, so Pujols could pretty easily represent a bigger upgrade over replacement level than A-Rod does.)
I agree, about the age thing, and also Platoon.
So, the geniuses at KJR think that if a young M’s pitcher is struggling with control, the solution is to work them harder?
Brilliant. Maybe they can add to that by putting Willie in the lineup every day…
in terms of just value, I think that defense at first is comparable to defense at third.
Ehhhh, there’s a reason that big fat guys that can’t move are put at 1B all the time, but rarely or never at 3B.
And the platoon comments are endlessly amusing to me. Maybe Hargrove thinks that if he refuses to ever, ever call it a “platoon” then Reed’s fragile ego won’t be hurt, even if Reed never starts against a lefty.
I just don’t see how the esteemed Mr Silver could have made such a glaring ommission: Our Own Willie Bloomquist. I mean, just last night Hendu was raving about how he was a “run producer” that “just produces runs.” He did mention that he doesn’t actually hit for any sort of average, nor does he actually have many RBI, and that in fact he actually just barely outperforms my three year old brother(well, maybe not that last one) but he is a “run producer.” The fact that this little oration went on during the flight of Wee Willie’s foul out to the first-baseman just illustrates how great of producer he really is. A man that can draw such glowing praise in the midst of such dismal performance really does have a unique skill-set. And as such, he should most definitely be in all sorts of top-50 lists.
Ehhhh, there’s a reason that big fat guys that can’t move are put at 1B all the time, but rarely or never at 3B.
Because you don’t need a ton of range to catch balls when you’re supposed to be holding your foot on a base? Like I said, playing third base requires a wider set of skills, but that doesn’t make it more valuable.
While I would agree that many teams undervalue good defense at first, I wouldn’t say that it is comparable with defense at third.
To name just one thing, they can get away with deficiences on half the battle in catch and throw – the throwing. The throwing ability needed for third is much higher than first. And I think, as far as throws go, we can agree that catching a ball thrown across the diamond is easier than throwing a ball accurately and quickly across the diamond.
” Like I said, playing third base requires a wider set of skills, but that doesn’t make it more valuable.”
Sure it does, because it means that the talent to do it is more scarce.
Maybe Kelley’s right when he says that the Mariners are looking for the next David Bell. That would be consistent with the search algorithm that turns up hits for Everett and Washburn.
Isn’t the main reason that Pujols himself no longer plays third base, the fact that the Cardinals signed Scott Rolen?
If arod was on any other team he would be a shortstop. I think his value as a shortstop is a lot higher then it is at third since you don’t find a lot of SS that can hit 40homers and play gold glove defense.
I agree that A-rod’s value as a SS is higher than as a 3B. So how long do the Yankees leave Jeter at SS with A-rod at third? I remember there were rumors this offseason about moving Jeter to the outfield, but Torre shot them down pretty quick.
Plus, he’s a vastly better shortstop than Jeter.
John Dewan’s fielding book makes that pretty clear. Jeter’s dreadful.
#51–So, the geniuses at KJR think that if a young M’s pitcher is struggling with control, the solution is to work them harder? Brilliant. Maybe they can add to that by putting Willie in the lineup every day
coincidently, Willie was on later, as the star of Wednesdays With Willie. I think Willie has a great future in the coaching ranks, based on his fine early grasp of coach-speak.
Let’s stop using that term “Gold glove defense”. It’s so bloody random. Doesn’t Barry Bonds have like 8 of them? Has he ever in his career been among best defensive outfielders in the National League?
Evan @ #23
FYI – Fluid Mechanics is the more general term that includes both subjects of Fluid Statics and Fluid Dynamics. Fluid Dynamics is definitely the more complicated subject of the two.
Also, incompressible is the accepted term instead of non-compressible. Technically, water (or any other fluid) is not incompressible but under most real-world conditions water can be treated as such with negligible consequences on computated values.
I really don’t know a lot about fluid mechanics; I must be one of those people that can sound like they know what they are talking about!
John in L.A. said April 19th, 2006 at 1:21 pm:
While I would agree that many teams undervalue good defense at first, I wouldn’t say that it is comparable with defense at third.
To name just one thing, they can get away with deficiences on half the battle in catch and throw – the throwing. The throwing ability needed for third is much higher than first. [snip]
See: Jason Giambi, 1B, NYYankees, throwing to any other base. LOL…
Sure it does, because it means that the talent to do it is more scarce.
Value and scarcity are not the same thing. Perhaps a statistic will help explain my position a bit. Total chances and innings played for 2005:
Pujols – 1708 chances, 1359.2 innings
Rodriguez – 415 chances, 1385.2 innings
Even if Pujols isn’t that much better than the next best first baseman on a rate basis, over the course of a season, he’s going to handle the ball about 4 times as often as Rodriguez is.
It almost helps Pujols’ case that so many oafs are thrown out there on first base. That sets the bar lower, so that it’s easier for Pujols to represent an upgrade over league average.
To name just one thing, they can get away with deficiences on half the battle in catch and throw – the throwing. The throwing ability needed for third is much higher than first. And I think, as far as throws go, we can agree that catching a ball thrown across the diamond is easier than throwing a ball accurately and quickly across the diamond.
This all has to do with how easy it is to be competent at fielding first versus being competent at fielding third. But even though it is easier to be competent at fielding first base, that doesn’t mean that there can’t be a variance in abilities at first base. And because of the sheer volume of chances at first base, the variance doesn’t have to be as great for a first baseman’s value (defensive runs above average or something) to be comparable to a third baseman’s value.
This whole conversation is why I’ve joined Tangotiger’s side on the issue of evaluating a player’s defensive value.
Position does not matter.
When we get into trying to prove that Albert Pujols defense is more valuable to the Cardinals because of his superiority to other first baseman in comparison to A-Rod and third baseman, we miss the massive point that Rodriguez has a skill that Pujols does not. Whether you believe that all of baseball is wrong, and that better defensive players should be played at first instead of third is irrelevant.
Alex Rodriguez’s quickness, hands, and arm strength make him a far superior defense talent than Pujols. That’s reflected in his manager’s decision to play him at the position that everyone in baseball agrees is the tougher position to field.
This isn’t a value debate. This is a skill debate. Pujols is playing first because he lacks the skill to play defense, at any position, at a comparable level to Alex Rodriguez.
That makes A-Rod the more valuable defensive player. Period.
How do we compare defense, then? Does shortstop get spotted +40 runs so that a Jeter is still better than an outstanding defensive first baseman?
That seems to make sense, but I’m curious then how you pick the number of runs you spot different positions.
Once upon a time Pujols actually had the skillset to play 3rd. That was before the elbow trouble, foot injuries, and Scott Rolen.
Comparing him to A-Rod is asinine anyway because A-Rod should be a starting shortstop somewhere. (Maybe he would be better compard to Dave Wright or Miguel Cabrera).
Anyway, when you get down to it it’s pretty obvious that A-Rod can play short and 3rd well and Pujols cannot. It’s a debate over the quality of the chances not the quantity.
69
Wow, 40 runs, (that’s how many wins again)? I once read an article where a scout claimed that J.T. Snow saved the Giants 10 games a year with his glove. Now that would be amazing.
I dunno. Since there’s less ground to cover at 1st and fewer throws, I have a hard time imagining that he’d be better than a guy like Helton or Lee.
For anyone interested, MLB just released the offical 2006 draft order…. M’s pick at #5, #49, #81, #111 and #141 through the first 5 rounds…too bad we can’t trade picks…
http://mlb.mlb.com/pressbox/downloads/y2006/draft_order_06.pdf
OK, A-Rod obviously has skills that Pujols doesn’t. But different positions require different skills — A-Rod might not have the skills to play catcher (though I wouldn’t bet against him). The question the “position doesn’t matter” view doesn’t answer is the value of different skills.
It’s kind of like the question of how you value “scrappiness” versus the actual ability to hit or field a position. Hendu, for instance, seems to think that “scrappiness” is a skill with value on a par with the ability to hit.
I think the defensive metrics are still so much in their infancy that you have to temper all of this with some good old fashioned ‘baseball sense’. Ha! That will get me flamed I’m sure, but what I mean is it’s pretty obvious that a great defensive short stop helps the team more than, say Mark McGuire (gold glove 1B). The thing is you have anomalous cases like John Olerud who I belive was superior at recieving badly thrown balls at first and saved tons of runs that way.
It would be very difficult quantify the ammount of runs a 3B saves over a 1B without taking obscure things like that into consideration. Can you really spot the shortstop 40 runs based on his chances and ignore the fact that the 1B will be recieving throws on nearly every infield play and all the moves to first base?
My personal feeling is that very few firstbasemen have the skill that Olerud had so that is more of a special case, but there’s just so many variables in defense that it’s hard to quantify a solid metric. (at least as far as I understand things which may not be very far)
How do we compare defense, then? Does shortstop get spotted +40 runs so that a Jeter is still better than an outstanding defensive first baseman?
That seems to make sense, but I’m curious then how you pick the number of runs you spot different positions.
I don’t know, honestly. But I’m convinced that runs above/below position averages or some phantom replacement level is not going to work for judging defensive ability.
Which is part of why I’m a fan of evaluating a player’s skillset rather than a player’s performance record. You can use the performance record to decide what kind of offensve skills he has, but defensively, we’re still in the judge-by-skills mode.
While being a sparkplug on the bases is useless without the ability to get on base (except of course when used as a pinch runner), I am loving this discussion of position value.
Regarding the outfield, I’d assume that Centerfield is the most valuable, followed by Right, and then Left. Of course, this is not necessarily static, as a field with a larger Left-field area than right field area may place more value on Left. But then the ability to throw is more highly valued in Right field. It seems to me that Center has the need to cover ground, and optimally would also have a good throwing arm.
I’m just thinking back to the discussion of the Mariners optimum outfield alignment, with Ichiro in Center, Reed in Left, and Ibanez in Right. Ibanez has the worst arm of the three, but not abysmal overall, but he cover MUCH less ground than the other two. His being in left in Safeco just seems dumb. But I digress.
This whole defensive value discussion is interesting. That’s all.
Another thing to remember, Mat, is that of those Pujols chances, most of them are him standing on the bag, putting his glove out and catching the ball. A-Rod has to chase almost every single one of his chances.
66 and 67 – I’m not sure why Pujol’s improvement over other first basemen is relevant… because if you had A-Rod playing first he would be even better than Pujols, I’m guessing. Sure there are some different requirements, but I think it’s more than fair to say that playing gold glove caliber defense at third is more impressive than doing so at first.
Now, if you wanted to say that Pujols is a better first baseman than A-Rod is a third baseman, then that’s a different argument.
I don’t mean this to dismiss first base defense (I greatly miss Olerud’s underrated glove out there, for instance).
That makes A-Rod the more valuable defensive player. Period.
Sure, I’m willing to concede this, for these specific players. However, going back to the beginning of the discussion, my point was that it’s not obvious that a good third baseman is more valuable to his team than a good first baseman. Take two hypothetical third basemen, who are of roughly total value. Handsy McHands has limited range, but fields everything he gets to cleanly, and makes accurate throws every time. Flashy McFlash gets to a lot of balls, but mishandles a lot of them, or throws them away. And forget about range vs. surehandedness debates, and adjust the difference in each talent so they are roughly equal in value overall.
Now, say Scott Rolen joins that team. If you move Mr. McHands to first base, he’s likely going to be a better first baseman than Mr. McFlash, since having sure hands is definitely a more important skill for a first baseman than having great range. So now that I’ve found a position that McHands can play better, is he now a more valuable defensive player than McFlash? And do we judge a player’s defensive value by where he’s the best or by where he plays the most often?
And regardless of that issue, at some level, it seems like it would be a good idea to determine how many runs a first baseman is worth compared to how many runs a third baseman is worth. Maybe it wouldn’t have anything to do with how much money you would offer free agent players, but wouldn’t it at least be interesting to know really well how many runs above an average first baseman Pujols is compared to how many runs above an average third baseman Rolen is?
Basically, it seems to me if you take this position on defense that you’ve opened a whole extra can of worms that both makes it exponentially harder to judge defense, and puts you in a game where you have to guess how well a player will field a position that we’ve never seen him field.
Another thing to remember, Mat, is that of those Pujols chances, most of them are him standing on the bag, putting his glove out and catching the ball. A-Rod has to chase almost every single one of his chances.
Sure, I’m quite aware of this, and as I mentioned above just now, I didn’t mean to get into a specific argument about A-Rod vs. Pujols, I just meant to point out that it’s not painfully obvious to me that a good third baseman is worth more than a good first baseman.
But even though most of the chances are easy enough plays that I could stand out there and do it, there are the plays on the margins that some guys can catch and others can’t. There aren’t 1200 of those tough catches per game, but there doesn’t have to be, there only has to be enough to make up for the difference between hard hit balls towards first base and hard hit balls towards third base.
At this point my comment regarding the post seems off topic. I just wanted to chime in with regard to the David Bell – Adrian Beltre comments.
I think what Kelley may aptly be describing is that the Mariners had a sort of “grass is greener” mentality with regard to David Bell and that it has cost them and us greatly. That we have suffered because of getting rid of David Bell is certainly true. We could have had the same or better production the past 4 years for a lot less money.
What the writer lays out but is too chicken to say is that we should be expecting Beltre to rise to his talent level… which is about on par with David Bell.
So you think that Beltre’s talent level is the same as David Bell’s? Wow.
Don’t forget that a 1st baseman is naturally limited in range due to holding runners on much more frequently that 3rd baseman. Consider also, that saving errant throws is a valuble asset to the team.
At some point you have to say 2004 was an aberration for him. The people I know from L.A. sure don’t miss him and really weren’t disappointed that they let him go. Every year but one he puts up David Bell numbers just without the bat-throwing dramatics, er, grittiness… plus *expectation.*
And at some point you have to say that people who say that aren’t looking at his stats.
Beltre OPS David Bell OPS
2001 0.721 2001 0.718
2002 0.729 2002 0.762
2003 0.714 2003 0.579
2004 1.017 ! 2004 0.821
2005 0.716 2005 0.671
2006 0.421 2006 0.696
So Bell’s first reall year was 1999, the same as Beltre. That year Bell was 26 (the age Beltre was last year) and Beltre was 20. They put up a nearly identical OPS (.763 for Bell and .780 for Beltre). That’s pretty damned amazing. Beltre’s OPS at 26 was .716 so a little lower than Bells, but his average from 1996 to 2005 is 787.4285714 whereas Bells is 715.8571429 (yay excell!)
If you want to do the Bryan Price thing and trow out a number and exclude Beltre’s ‘carreer’ year his average is 749.1666667 which is still better than Bell’s. If you take out Bell’s best year his OPS average drops to 698.3333333.
Considering Beltre also plays vastly superior defense and was a better hitter than Bell while 6 years younger I think it’s pretty clear you have a much higher talent level.
Also, over Bell’s time in Philly the park factors were slight pitcher-neutral-hitter’s, while Beltre toiled in Dodger Stadium.
But really… come on
2001: wash
2002: Bell by 40
2003: Beltre by 135
2004: skip if you think it’s a fluke
2005: Beltre by 45
Beltre’s way better.
Beltre RBI!!!
User @ 64
See? It’s not that hard.
Everything I know about fluid dynamics I learned from my father, who studied Engineering in the ’60s, so my terminology is bound to be out of date. But again, it takes someone with actual knowledge to notice that.
1B and DEFENSE – This off-posted article dramatically illustrates the difference a good defensive First Baseman can make:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/schwarz_alan/1377032.html