Ichiro’s tree comments
I haven’t posted this because I really don’t know what to say. I still think it’s 50-50 whether Ichiro’s putting one over on the reporter in his recent comments on the team.
The part that’s caused all the head scratching is this bit:
“If there is a problem, we need to notice what creates the problem,” Ichiro said in Japanese, through his translator. “The problem usually isn’t just on the cover. You need to look much deeper. For example, if we’re talking about a tree and the tree has a problem, you need to look at the root. But you cannot see the root. The mistake is to keep watering the fruit. That’s not going to solve anything.”
Folks, I honestly have no idea what he’s trying to point to as the root cause. I’d guess management, but then that’s not really the root of a tree, is it — that’s the organization. Is it the city? Is it us?
Ichiro, if it’s us, we can change. Let’s talk.
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No man… you’re not thinking like the tree man! Okay, the root, is us man! It’s the collective union of souless minions of mediocrity who are only driven by our capitalistic needs man! We only want to do and not to be! Y’know what I mean, man?!
It’s like, we got to find the root in ourselves! And when we do, we gotta make sure it aint seeping into some corporate contaminated groundwater, y’know? Or our fruits… man our fruits are just gonna fall off man!
I think it’s pretty clear that someone needs to water Hargrove. Or something. Man, I don’t know.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that Ichiro is just so much smarter than I am that I can’t understand what he says.
Obviously management.
Coaches yelling at the players isn’t going to help anything.
It’s not whether Ichiro is smarter or not. (Of course he is smart, but this is not the point.) What Ichiro said is very typical Japanese. Japanese people usually don’t just point to a person and say “it’s your fault.” They suggest it, in a way that sounds very vague to western people.
I believe what he means is management (e.g. Hargrove or Bavasi), not the fans. Ichiro loves his fans.
Looks like Ichiro is speaking metaphorically. Lets break it down:
~“The problem usually isn’t just on the cover. You need to look much deeper.”
He’s saying its difficult to see and you have to look deeper to see the problem. Basically, you have to look hard.
~”For example, if we’re talking about a tree and the tree has a problem, you need to look at the root. But you cannot see the root. The mistake is to keep watering the fruit. That’s not going to solve anything.â€
Anyone know what groups of fruit trees are called? A grove.
So, here is what we get out of that; we have to look hard in a grove to see the problem. Hmmm, let’s break it down. A grove….look hard. Look hard….a grove. Hard a grove….hard grove. Hard grove! Sound like someone familiar to anyone else?
Yes Trent, hard grove is where Ichiro is saying the problem is. But there is more. Ichiro is speaking on many levels all at once. He also said you must look at the roots. Where are roots? Underground. Down under ground. Down under. What else is down under? Australia. He’s saying the team should bring up Doyle.
Fire Hargrove and call up Doyle.
But that’s not the end.
He also said you must look at the root, but you cannot see the root. And yet, the root still exists. Just as you cannot see the dinosaurs, but they still, er, used to, exist. To simply look at the fruit of the saurian tree (birds) but deny the existence of the root (dinosaurs), is to be unwise. He is also saying the team must DFA Everett.
Fire Hargrove, call up Doyle, DFA Everett.
And I think he’s also saying free beer for the first two innings, but I might be mistaken about that one.
5 and 6 are on to something, man! It’s the Suzuki Code!
If we’re talking about watering, perhaps it’s the grounds crew he’s refering to…
Seriously though. Think of the tree… the branchs are the players… See that little one, that’s willie’s branch. And some kids are using bret boone’s branch for stick ball…
I think perhaps if we don’t try to take it so deep, perhaps he’s just suggesting that the teams problems are deeper that what’s on the surface. I’d say Hargrove is surface, and so is Bavasi… The Ownership group, is what provides the cash (nutrients\roots) and generally goes unmentioned.
Perhaps I’m projecting a bit, but I also believe the answer to Ichiro’s riddle to be “Grover must go”.
The manager’s job is to put his team in the best position to succeed in a given situation. That’s why they’re the root – you really only notice the spectacularly bad ones (like, say, Hargrove). Also, no amount of changing the roster around (”watering the fruit”) is going to be able to compensate for a manager that’s incapable of maximizing the skills of his players – you could swap A-Rod and Pujols for Beltre and Sexson and this team would STILL underperform.
That or he’s saying that no matter how fresh and delicious the salmon, he’s never been a big fan of the Ichiro Roll because he doesn’t like asparagus. Could go either way, really.
Ahhhh…
Da-Ichi-Code.
“Da-Ichi Code”: Churchill, I love it!
Here’s the deal: if an organization has a bad talent acquisition strategy, you only get wizened fruit, and too little of it. Pruning a little here, grafting a little there, nurturing that wizened fruit means you have shiny wizened fruit, and too little of it. The root strategy is bad. In this case, because the root strategists are . . . unfruitful. To me, Ichiro is saying the FO are stupid farmers who need to be replaced ’cause they can’t grow beans. He can’t say that openly, of course.
Or something. The subtext is, as always, that grubby media hacks should hella stop asking Ichii stupid questions like, “So, what’s _wrong_ with the team, Big Guy (lean into the microphone and make my deadline headline for me, please)?” They should use their own eyes and ears and report what the see.
He’s obviously desperate for a Matsuzaka signing.
To me, Ichiro is saying the FO are stupid farmers who need to be replaced ’cause they can’t grow beans.
Wait wait wait… so you’re saying that Ichiro wants the FO to be manned by Juan Valdez?
If Honest Juan has good connections in the DR, yes, ’cause our Venezuela outfit is already the best in the game.
Maybe Ichiro is saying that Bavasi and/or Hargrove is as dumb as a house plant?
I think the root in question is the attitude and work ethic of his team mates. He is saying that until they have a winning attitude, there is no point looking at the standings. The last sentence of the article, about Lopez, leads me to this conclusion:
Lopez’s development is a prime example of development from the roots up, something Ichiro, the leadoff man and club leader would like to see more with the Mariners.
Well, I read that last sentence as “Don’t for crissakes sign anymore one-armed DHs, or corner outfielders who can’t read the curve but are shoved out into centerfield for 50 ABs—DEVELOP SOME COMPETENT PLAYERS WHO CAN _HIT_!”
Here’s an idea: Ichiro for GM!
Wouldn’t it be cool to see the type of players that Ichiro would sign as a free agent or trade for?
I have a feeling that Ichrio wouldn’t be budget-sensitive, and would be quite ruthless with guys who don’t cut it. Just my sense. —I’ll take him right now, and thank you.
[error/sentence ratio]
I think he planted a little bonsai tree out in right field, and he’s getting a little pissed that it’s not growing. The grounds crew knows all about grass, but they keep screwing up his tree.
Or he was just giving an example to back up the question from the reporter. Although he had a problem with our manager last year. Why wouldn’t he still have a problem now?
Be the ball, Danny. Be the ball.
I think he’s talking about the trees planted out behind the batter’s eye. Maybe they have turned brown? Does he think this is why fans are staying away?
Our tree is replacement-level.
Maybe Ichiro is trying to point out something that hasn’t been mentioned yet…
I was at a couple games in Oakland and the behavior of one of the players had me wondering if the game had his full attention. It led me to wonder if the team is just worn out from partying all night. I haven’t heard of any reports, or seen anything first hand but maybe the part about “watering the fruit” really means that the team is spending too much time at the watering hole and the water is really alcohol.
You know, this phrase “The problem usually isn’t just on the cover” worries me– if Ken Barron can’t find the word for (I assume) ’surface’, what else in the elegant tree analogy has he missed?
hmm, I wonder if Ichiro knows how long it takes for little green tomatoes to ripen in Seattle…..
I don’t think Ichiro is smarter than me, but he’s probably got a better sense of humor. He probably is laughing his butt off about how every word of his tree example is making headlines.
My take on what he said:
“Look, to get this team turned around, you can’t do it just by adding little pieces here and there. It’s not about designating guys, bringing up guys, or waiting for others to perform. It’s not that simple. If you are only looking at that level, you aren’t going deep enough. We need to change our mindset to be winners, from top to bottom. The front office needs to approach each year by believing winning the whole damn thing is more important than just being competitive. The manager needs to instill some discipline in the players and get everybody to function as a unit. The players need to stop playing cards and focus on the game, every night, ’cause at times it is like we aren’t showing up out there. Why doesn’t everybody come and stretch with me. Let’s enter a total winner, focused, error-free Zen zone together. When we are all off doing our own thing we are too easily side-tracked. Get the right frame of mind, and winning becomes an organizational mindset that will influence every decision we make from signings to legging out infield grounders.”
Well maybe I read a bit more into it than is really there, but if I were Ichiro, that’d be what I was saying. You don’t get excited about a brief period of turnaround. You see the promise and strive to actually be a great organization. Players will play above their abilities and winning a bad division will be stop number one on the way to the whole enchilada.
I don’t think Ichiro is actually placing the blame on anyone, but rather acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that the team need look outside the box for answers. Maybe the fix isn’t moving Beltre to 2nd in the lineup or Lopez to 3rd, but moving Johjima higher in the order. Maybe the fix isn’t trading for a lefty hitting DH, but to replace your current DH altogether. Ichiro does not know the problem, he only knows that a problem exists and it is not his place to solve said problem(s).
Dude, y’all need to go out and rent, “Being There.” Seriously. Water the garden.
I think Ichiro’s toying with the media and enjoying the result immensely. He’s basically held up a mirror with this comment: Everyone sees their own image in it.
This sort of indirect critique is pretty common in Japan. You simply don’t slag your field manager, teammates or upper management the way you see some players do in the US.
I think Ichiro’s toying with the media and enjoying the result immensely.
Second that. Ichiro’s a smart dude who doesn’t like to talk to the press. It’s not as good as Eric Cantona’s “seagulls following the trawler” comment, but it’s nice and oblique and keeps people spinning for a while without actually saying anything.
Someone should tell Ichiro that of the many things that can go wrong with a tree, problems within or around the roots are responsible for only a small portion.
“There is no tree…”
The roots need water
Hitters hitting long home runs
Will cure Mariners
The meaning of these comments must be a poll question.
My vote will be for meaningless joke.
Although there is a lot to be said for a vague allegation of wrongdoing that forces the guilty to flee when no one pursues.
If a tree falls in the forest, will the fans stop going to the forest?
Metaphors from other languages are interesting sometimes.
If Ichiro was American I would tend to think he was talking about the farm system, particularly with the Lopez reference… and criticizing signings like Everett. To most of us I think the farm system would feel more like roots than management, which we tend to think of as “top”, not bottom.
But it’s very possible that to him the bottom or base of everything is management.
I still wouldn’t think he was talking about Hargrove, not deep enough. It would seem he was talking about everything above that, above Bavasi even.
“I don’t think Ichiro is smarter than me…”
Careful, man. That’s begging to be the next poll question.
But it’s very possible that to him the bottom or base of everything is management.
I still wouldn’t think he was talking about Hargrove, not deep enough. It would seem he was talking about everything above that, above Bavasi even.
Yuppers.
The usual off-topic delete at will caveat applies, but my boss tells me that KJR just announced that the M’s are calling up Adam Jones and Greg Dobbs, and I don’t see a topic for it yet other than the existing Jones thread.
Could Dobby the Bench Elf coming up mean the end of Carl?
I think John in LA (38) is onto it.
If I remember right from my admittedly shallow understanding of Japanese business culture, isn’t management viewed as the base of an organization, instead of the top (as it is here)? Culturally, this analagy sounds about as close to an indictment of Hargrove/Bavasi as you’ll see from Ichiro.
In “American”, his comments about watering the fruit might come close to “rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic”.
Now, it’s hard to say whom of Hargrove/Bavasi he would blame more. I’d like to think it’s Hargrove, since I believe he’s the biggest problem. Plus, the idea of Lopez being a positive step, might refer to Hargrove’s initial reluctance to play hime (ie, the spring training “competition”.)
In Japanese business, management provides the base from which the workers can succeed. When a business fails, the leader resigns in shame, rather than taking the multi-gazillion dollar parachute (as in the US).
Yay, Ichiro.
Dobbs?!??!? DOBBS!?!?!?!
Oh well, one more 40 man spot has to be opened up tomorrow for Dobbs, so maybe we will also see DFA of Everett and the recall of Snelling.
well, the Times is reporting it: “Infielder Greg Dobbs and outfielder Adam Jones have been called up to play for the Mariners, starting with Friday’s game at Toronto. To make room on the 25-man roster, the team optioned outfielder Shin-Soo Choo to Tacoma and outrighted catcher Luis Oliveros to Class A Inland Empire.”
btw, “The Rainiers are back in action this Thursday, July 13th at PGE Park to face the Portland Beavers. The game will be broadcast on Fox Sports Northwest beginning at 7:00 p.m. “
dang it.
here
Somewhere, Carl Everett is darkly muttering: “Who you calling a fruit?”
Ichiro’s comments are a looking glass, but this part isn’t too unclear.
That’s aimed pretty clearly at the top of the FO tree.
Unless the FO decides to win instead of “be competitive”, Ichiro is feeling free to get off the bus when his current obligation to Mr. Yaumauchi expires.
or, conversely, that the existing team need to take care of business and not look to the outside or the F.O. for help. He is a multitude, that Ichiro!
We ditched Roberto Petagine so we could have a backup C on Sunday and Greg Dobbs for the rest of the year.
Aaaaargh.
#48: Oh well, if the Dobber gets 2 at bats a month, how much damage could he do?
Ichiro’s next comments: “Wax on … wax off ….”
Dobbs!?!
off topic, but is there one singular official statement regarding the adam jones call-up anywhere? there’s none on mariners.org, the pi, the times, anywhere.
i realize his agent said he was flying to toronto today when someone on the board decided to write him yesterday.
but still, it’s kind of weird, if nothing else. where’s the ‘official’ enthusiasm?
could there be a finer definition in the world of a AAAA player than greg dobbs?
Its almost comical how good our bench looked at the beginning of the year compared to now.
From the Times:
Dobbs, 28, has played in 81 games for Tacoma this season, compiling a .299 average with 53 runs, 15 doubles, two triples, seven home runs and 46 RBI. He has a .293 average with runners in scoring position and a .354 average with runners on base and two outs.
Yay! Now we have a Clutch Bat® off the bench!
#52? see #43
Ichiro is just planning for his future. He wants to take over Yogi’s role in the Aflac commercials when he retires, so he’s laying the groundwork now.
speaking of player movements, Kearns was finally moved (apparently getting Eddie wasn’t enough): “The Cincinnati Reds overhauled their rickety bullpen Thursday, getting Gary Majewski and Bill Bray in an eight-player deal that sent outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to the Washington Nationals. The Reds acquired shortstop Royce Clayton, infielder Brendan Harris and pitcher Daryl Thompson from the last-place Nationals.”
30 – So you’re saying that Ichiro is a mentally-handicapped gardener who only knows what he’s learned from TV?
And that he’ll soon be running for president of the United States?
Kewl.
speaking of player movements, Kearns was finally moved (apparently getting Eddie wasn’t enough): “The Cincinnati Reds overhauled their rickety bullpen Thursday, getting Gary Majewski and Bill Bray in an eight-player deal that sent outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to the Washington Nationals. The Reds acquired shortstop Royce Clayton, infielder Brendan Harris and pitcher Daryl Thompson from the last-place Nationals.â€
You can’t be serious. There’s no way this trade happened. Nobody can be this stupid. Damn! I fonly Julio Mateo was having a good year we could have acquired two star players.
59: As entertaining as that notion is, no. Ichiro’s the smart one. It’s just that his comments are holding up a mirror. Everyone sees their own opinion in it.
#60– so what 4 players were you planning on sending to the Reds along with Mateo?
Dobbs’ numbers in Tacoma are actually pretty good (299/366/428). And 13 steals, surprisingly. What I don’t understand is what role he fills on the team. I guess he takes over the Petagine role of the extra left handed bat who never gets into a game. The “bench” is now Rivera, Bloomquist, Dobbs and the unused half of the Everett/Perez platoon.
62
Whoever I spun Lopez off for!
Jones/Dobbs thread up….
I’m a little late here, but I think I have something to offer. I live in Taiwan (duh), and Taiwan is pretty close to Japan in terms of culture. In fact, Taiwan was a colony of Japan for 50 years (1895-1945). I work in a Taiwanese corporate structure. Ichiro’s comments, in my environment, would be taken as criticisms of the management– with enough ambiguity left over to keep himself out of trouble. Ichiro took pains not to name anyone; thus, no one would lose face. Nonetheless, everyone would be clear something seriously is wrong with the management according to this senior employee– and I doubt Ichiro, without senior status, would make even such an ambiguous but nonetheless certain criticism.
I don’t live in Taiwan, but I agree with Nick. While Ichiro’s comments aren’t specifically directed at anyone, they’re clearly directed at management in general.
#48, e-coward: (aarrghhh) squared. Bavasi clearly wants the team to ‘get younger’ and look to next year, methinks, but yeah. Lawton and Petagine could actually have helped if the team had a manager who used his bench, but they were both jettisoned in ninny-moves to absolutely no improvement for the 25-man. I’ve got to say, I’ll be glad when Bill Bavasi is gone. He’s a helluva nice guy, but watching his pointless roster churn for three years is like swallowing a fistful of Valium. Someone’s dialing 911 on me now, I’m so asleep.
If the Nats actually pulled off that steal-deal (haven’t looked), Bowden must have borrowed a few zillion braincells from someone else he’s never used. Kearns and F. Lopez for assorted junk.
I definetly think Ichiro’s comments were criticisms of management, as I alluded in my first post in thread. It’s very difficult to read what he said any _other_ way, to me.
I’m going on vacation for a few days, so that’ll take a load off the server Derek. : )
This US organization (with the support of a Japanese financier) courted and won the services of this great Japanese athelete. To react like a bunch of rubes when he speaks like a Japanese athelete is to lose an opportunity to learn something.
The sport that we love, and the Japanese love, and the Dominicans love and so many people around the world love may afford us all an opportunity to look at things differently. Ichiro’s parable, whose richness is intermittently suggested throughout the current string of comments, means exactly what it appears to mean.
This was a pretty funny thread.
Seriously, I think 16 had it right. Sounds to me like he’s talking about the clubhouse. I don’t think Ichiro would put blame on the management. I think he would put blame on the people playing the game.
Maybe the message is aimed directly at Mr Yamauchi.
Why speak in a Japanese rhetorical style if not to address an audience in Japan?
And as the only personnel decision Mr Yamauchi really cares about is his personal choice of Howard Lincoln to run the show, maybe Ichiro is suggesting that’s where the problem is.
Fire Lincoln.
It would be a pretty good way of changing the management culture of the ballclub.
Lincoln’s a figurehead owner-type guy. You really can’t fire him, or Armstrong for that matter, unless you want to make an argument for the city taking over the team, which might not be any better.
Lincoln’s a figurehead owner-type guy. You really can’t fire him, or Armstrong for that matter, unless you want to make an argument for the city taking over the team, which might not be any better.
Are you saying that this is an inherently dysfunctional organization?