Game 98, Red Sox at Mariners
Dave · July 23, 2006 at 1:30 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Jon Lester vs Jarrod Washburn.
Lester’s local and has a good arm, but he’s not throwing strikes regularly since showing up in the majors, so the M’s would do well to work the count and get to the Sox bullpen early.
No Carl Everett today – huzzah!
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Beltre!
So I just turned on the tv and i missed the beltre double. Where did he hit it to and would it have gone it in a ‘normal’ park?
To the 388 sign. Yes.
It would have been a HR. It hit the top of the fence and bounced back in.
You know what’s awesome? I kept waiting, resigned, for Everett to come to bat and end that inning, and he kept not coming and the inning kept on going… then I finally remembered that he wasn’t in the game… I wish I could watch an inning without dread more often.
damn. I for some reason love Beltre in spite of his struggles. I would love to see him up his slugging pct while continuing to hit for a better average.
Yeah, that ball was crushed. I thought it was gone off the bat, but it just hung up a little. Has anyone else noticed Beltre hitting a ton of doubles lately?
In his last 9 games, Beltre’s now at .351/.415/.568. That’s 13 for 37, 6 doubles, 1 triple, 4 walks, 7 strikeouts.
Guess it’s not just interleague play.
6, yeah, I’m completely irrational on the subject.
unfortunately his season OPS is still that of a Boeing jetliner, but it’s going up quick.
this is a huge game….rubber game against the BoSox with like 9 million fans in the stands….
I have a bet, made after April, that Beltre would come around enough to finish the season higher than his career OPS. No small achievement after that April.
I think I might yet win that.
Ahhh, classic Bloomquist.
Pensive, I rewound the TIVO. The hit was called right, it looked like. It hit right in the middle of the wall. Couldn’t see it hit anything else.
well 41 pitches in 2 innings…lester should be done after 5 innings
Willie strikes out too much.
I love the way Ortiz spits then claps his hands before gripping the bat. That little action from a guy like him would intimidate the crap out of me.
god this lineup has no mercy built in it….
The way to pitch to Manny is to hit him in the wallet and take your chances with the next guy
Or like that
Is there anyone more annoying than a Red Sox fan from somewhere other than Boston? Listen to the crap we have to put up with when they come to town. I’ve had enough of their fair weather fans and all the publicity they get.
The Rex Sox are the same as the Yankees, why don’t people understand that?
You wanna talk about gritty, take a look at Ramirez — he looks like he’s been rolled in a special blend of herbs, spices and dirt when he plays.
Yeah, U of Oregon fans in Eugene against U Dub.
# 14- John, Thankyou.
As a lifetime OSU Beaver fan, I’d OF COURSE have to agree with 23!
washburn has issues….
Crud, I knew Washburn would give it all back.
Washburn’s not your ideal pitcher for the Red Sox I’m thinking.
23: All fans must seem like “fair weather” fans when your team has three wins in two seasons.
Something that appears to have a chance at hurting us is Richie’s CONTINUED inability this year to come through with a simple fly ball to advance the runners with less than two outs. (If he gets one in and the other to third, Perez likely gets us our 4th run).
This year with a runner on third and less than two outs:
6-24 with FIFTEEN strikeouts…ouch
The bandwagon fandom might be very similar, but as a team, players and management alike, nothing about them grates on me the way the Yankees do. Really, everything about the way the Yankees construct their rosters and cut their hair and speak to the media is a million times worse. I’m kind of rooting for Papelbon and Lester to fall on their faces, but I kind of have a soft spot for the Red Sox still.
Always an adventure with Washburn. Going to have to have a few more innings like the first I guess.
Raul! You go, fix those lefty-splits!
Does anyone else have the same disdain for Safeco’s dimensions when we have multiple balls hit the top of the wall?
Dats what I’m talking ’bout homie!
Kids, kids, remember, the Sox hate the Yankees as much as we do.
Perez!
PEREZ!!!!
WOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Hmm…Maybe we should play Perez more. Just a thought.
One great thing about the BoSox:
They ain’t the Skankees. And their “Alex’s” don’t make 25 mill
WOW! Perez shows Sexson how its done against lefties in BOTH of his at bats!!! Thanks for FINALLY giving him regular PT Grover.
Take that Carl Everett!
Why is C Rex here again?
Hopefully Mike Hargrove can remember who Perez is now.
as per Sexson, ..well having a crappy year and still hitting 30 dingers and driving in 100 runs is a consolation I think
WTF?
Perez? who is Perez? Why isnt carl playing?
Chicks dig the long ball.
No, DAT’s WHAT I’m talking ’bout homie!
Also two things we win here were 4 games back. Also so much for not getting hometown jitters for Lester.
44
All the more reason he shouldn’t have so much trouble getting a guy in from third with less than two outs. Dave Kingman could hit at the Mendoza line with those power numbers. But he wasn’t always the #4 hitter in his career, nor was he being paid twice as much as other starters at his position.
Hargrove, please please please have been watching that.
GET WASHBURN OUT NOW!
Possibly the best offensive weapon we have is Perez against lefties. Up there, anyway.
If Carl sees one more at bat against a lefty, I am going to call Hargrove a bad name.
If Beltre is back a half a step that’s an easy play for him. Because he was up close though, it’s a double off his glove.
Yeah, Sexson is basically a crappier version of Jay Buhner, playing an easier position and making, what, double or triple what Buhner made?
I’m not saying I don’t like Richie, but he’s far, far overpaid and overrated.
When Varitek hit the double that tied the ballgame, I was screaming for a god damned changeup. Now he throws one to Kapler and strikes him out. Hmm…
Washburn really needs to throw more changeups. He doesn’t have the velocity, movement, or stuff to strike people out with high fastballs.
John, my old drill sargeant was fond of maggot, for example
Wasbhurn has “Mike Morgan” disease. He pitches great when we get him no runs, but struggles when he DOES get runs…for whatever reason.
Morgan had a horrific w/l record as a starter, but usually had a really solid ERA. Geez…I think he must have pitched for about a million years.
Too bad the Red Sox have no left-handed relievers. Thats basically an invitation for Hargrove to put in Everett.
Re 55:
Huh? How is Sexson “crappier” then The Bone? Yeah, he sucks this year, but like… y’know… historically and stuff.
My criticism regarding Richie is referring to THIS year fwiw
Thank you!
thank god Washburn is so clutch with runners on
#58. Another Mike, Mike MOORE, used to make me feel the same way.
Washburn has 84 pitches. Is it possible that someone other than “Gas Can” Mateo will relieve?
just realized…Jones is due for a dinger….
I think we’ll be seeing Mateo.
65. You mean Julio “Camel Face” Mateo?
“Get me Calvin Maduro!”
I just hope he never has to face Ortiz.
Sexson has hit for a little better average over his carreer and hit 40 dingers (give or take) three times. That looks an awfuo lot likt Buhner’s career numbers. He plays the easiest position on the field and really isn’t all that great at it, aside from being tall, and makes a TON of money.
Mike Moore also had some poor run support. But he seemed less predictable when he would blow up. Morgan ALWAYS seemed to pitch well when he had two runs or less.
Maybe Jones can steal a base now…seems like a good situation to try
8 pitches last at bat….7 more this at bat….. he’s a younger version of hargrove….
Can someone from a journalism or literary background help me here…
When Dave Niehaus says “Alfonso Soriano is a hot commodity”, is it even possible that he is using the word commodity correctly? I thought a commodity is something that is produced in large enough quantities with no differentiation so that it can be traded and sold at a generic price set by the market.
A hot commodity would be one that is being traded and sold in high volumes. In other words, in regards to Soriano, there are a ton of high strikeout, low walk, big homer, corner outfielders being traded around the league in recent days. Hmmmm, doesn’t seem to fit.
68, I’m glad you’re talking about how ugly you think Mateo is again, because I missed that game thread and didn’t get to say that I think you’re absolutely crazy for thinking he’s uglier than Tavarez.
Yeah, Jones.
My criticism regarding Richie is referring to THIS year fwiw
Which is fine, because he sucks this year compared to his history. But he is not a historically bad player. Overpaid? Maybe. Overrated? No, he’s got crazy power and takes enough walks that he gets on base a ton. He’ll post a good OPS almost every year, save this one, and he’ll strike out a shitload. Depending on your point of view on strikeouts, that could be a good thing or a bad thing.
So far if the Mariners win they’ll have won against two of the best pitchers in baseball.
gosh darn it this is a BIG game….
YES Jones.
further validation of the slocumb trade… varitek has a puss arm..
If Beltre can get TWO hits with RISP, it won’t be possible to lose this game.
He… just to put things in perspective, even with Jones starting 0 for 11 and coming into this game hitting 5 for 23, he is within 30 points of OPS of Bloomquist.
So far if the Mariners win they’ll have won against two of the best pitchers in baseball.
Huh?
Crap…never mind
82
Wasn’t he that close to Bloomy’s OPS when he made his debut?
83. They also won against Fransico Liriano.
Really slow game.
Doesn’t Pena crush lefties? Sorta glad he isn’t in their line up today.
85 – Heh. Bloomquist’s walk, by the way, made it .031 difference.
#77: if? You should have your membership fees to USSM reimbursed and your membership revoked…
we’re inching toward time for the best young bullpen in the history of the majors to take over…
83. They also won against Fransico Liriano.
They also beat Brad Penny, Brandon Webb, Randy Johnson…
Perhaps you meant “two of the best rookie pitchers in baseball.” I don’t rank Lester up there with those other names and he’s certainly not on Felix level.
According to Fairly, if you can keep Ortiz and Manny in the ballpark you have a better chance of winning.
Fairly: a Daniel come to baseball judgment, for sure.
92 – “According to Fairly, if you can keep Ortiz and Manny in the ballpark you have a better chance of winning.”
I disagree completely. Our best chance of winning is if we could have kept Ortiz and Manny from ever getting IN the ballpark.
Nice job Willie.
Agh. Damnation!
Ooh, I must be feeling better about the M’s somehow. My profanity’s coming back.
I miss Lopez.
I hate Washburn.
91
Since I’m assuming he wasn’t referring to Etherton and Loaiza, I also noticed we beat Buehrle too. And that was before he became a launching pad…but he was another all star we managed to hand a loss on.
obviously thats a hose job… everyone knows that catchers can’t run
What happened with Willie?
We seriously couldn’t turn two on a catcher from the ride side?
99
…HANG a loss on
That should have been turned.
100. Except for Jason Kendall.
I thought Lopez was supposed to return Saturday and play today. Was there a change, or did I get that wrong?
105
Kendall better be able to run, since he hits hr’s about as often as Willie
Jeremy Reed who?
Hee hee hee… rookies.
Adam Jones caught that and put his head down and started jogging towards the dugout. Raul must have said something to him because he looked up quickly and threw it back in.
Fairly notes that it’s interesting out that of Washburn’s 16 HR allowed this year, 12 of them are to right handed batters.
Right handed batters have had 375 AB against Washburn this year vs. 86 by lefthanders.
While the HR numbers mean nothing, it is interesting that lefthanders are hitting considerably better this year off Washburn than lefties. Which is exactly opposite his splits the last 3 years.
coco crisp overmatched by washburn….thats scary
Nice recovery by the kid though — doesn’t he look good?
I find it interesting that a guy who just learned the position and is still getting intensive training doesn’t use two hands to catch the ball.
‘nice recovery’ referring to the Adam Jones moment described in 109.
Listen up kids, Rickey R is going to tell us all about Lester being a local, coached by the groundskeeper, stuff you’ve never heard before
Wow, Raul really has Lester figured out. He just missed that pitch that could have easily been another double at least.
My favorite Fairly line, and I’ve heard him say this on at least 3 different occassions. When someone hits a line drive off the wall:
“Boy Dave, I’ll tell ya, if that ball had been a little bit higher, it might have had a chance to be a home run.”
Also heard him say once when a runner stole second.
“Boy, Dave, I’ll tell ya, if that throw had just been a little bit straighter, and been on the first base side of the bag, it might have had a chance to get him.”
Bizarro World. Washburn has 6 Ks in 5 IP today. If he could do that more often, he’d be almost worth the money.
We get the idea Rick. EVERY team friggin’ wanted Lester…sigh
101 – He didn’t cleanly get the ball out of his glove to get the ball to Richie. Just a monetary blip, but enough to spoil the double play. the announcers were saying he mad a mistake in catching the throw from Beltre in the webbing.
I knew it, Grovers Bobby Ayala is up and ready to blow this game wide open
“monetary blip”
Considering Willie’s stupid contract, I think this was intentional.
Julio goddamn Hargrove
A decent Fairly discussion cannot happen without the thoughts of captain obvious, the usual nickname for Fairly in my house.
“Gee, in a 5-4 game, the Mariners sure could use some insurance runs, right Dave?”
Oh goddamn it. Julio Mateo…
Ah shit
122 – Heh. Good lord. My subconscious has taken over my keyboard.
Has Hargrove not seen enough of Mateo standing on the mound with his hands on his hips after giving up another game?
Hooray for Washburn. Another 5 and 1/3 innings. What an Ace. I’m so glad we spent so much money on him.
I wonder how baseball would change if they required pitchers to go 6 innings for the win instead of 5.
Mateo in
Red Sox exhale
Uh oh.
I’m not a numbers guy, can someone who is give me a decent stat on the damage Mateo does? His ERA is 5ish but those are only his mistakes, he allows all inherited to score. How do you track that?
I think this game is a big one for the Mariners. A win puts them four games back and they take two of three from a good team. Why would Hargrove put in Julio “Gas Can” Mateo when there are better options in the ‘pen?
No worries… Mateo won’t stay in long enough to definitively give up the game. I mean, we could score several runs in the last few innings.
I think that converstion on the mound wasn’t about Washburn trying to get Hargrove to leave him in… he was begging Hargrove to bring in anyone but Mateo.
“Sherrill?”
“No.”
“Lowe?”
“Nope.”
“C’mon… Woods?”
“Nah.”
“Putz?”
“Hahahahahaha… No.”
here he comes to save the day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
look up in the sky, its a bird, its a plane, no its another flyball induced by Mateo!!!!!!!!!
Ouch. OK, that wasn’t Mateo’s fault.
at least ortiz and manram aren’t prone to hitting flyballs… :-p
Oh, lordy.
Ichiro, help him out.
It’s a hit in the box score…I blame Mateo.
ok…i’ll wait till after the game to buy the M’s jersey….
Tell me they’ll bring in Sherrill to face Ortiz at least, if it comes to that.
C’mon. Just two outs. Please?
What!? Among the best bullpen ERA’s?
How about inherited runners that scored?
FUCK
I wonder how the sale of Mateo jerseys are doing.
Who oculd have seen that coming? I mean, what are the odds that Mateo would give up a lead?
With a tie score, we’ll never see one of the good arms from the pen.
Sherrill’s not allowed to pitch before the 7th inning in Hargrove’s world.
gosh damn it….. Jeremy Reed. Whose Jeremy Reed?
Buena suerte, Julio.
Mateo sucks.
Man. There are a lot of loud Sox fans in the stadium.
This isn’t looking good.
well in Mateo’s defense, no one could’ve seen this coming…..
No Sherril to face Ortiz? What the hell is the point of using Sherril as a LOOGY, Hargrove?
151, yeah, I know. Ugh.
The Gas can. The gasinator. What color is the sky in Grovers world anyway???
goddamnit what the hell was sherrill warming up for anyway?
148
I’m sure its equally proportionate to the sale of liter fluid around Safeco Field
Is Mateo the only guy in the ‘pen today…AGAIN?
If he brought Sherrill in here, he’d lose Mateo for the 7th.
this inning has been less than ideal thus far….
its time to trade Mateo for Dunn… we can throw in hargrove
And another great outing by Mateo.
Why even have ONE lefty in the pen…much less TWO, if you’re gonna let Ortiz hit with the go ahead run on 2nd at this point in the game?
At any rate:
We have a lead
Mateo waddles in
We lose the lead
Ho hum…
That’s one of the few mistakes you’ll see Jojima make taking a throw at home. He’s been perfect at blocking the plate in any other time before this.
I wonder if it’s just a matter that the other Mariner position players know how much Mateo sucks, so they don’t bother.
Haha – Hendu was saying too many nice things about Ortiz and Manny, so Rizzs had to throw in a shameless Edgar reference to meet his homer quota.
sherrill was warming up so the Ms could tell the fanbase it was trying… :-p
Mateo’s ERA before this game, with RiSP was 10.66 –
With 20 hits, 13 walks and 6 strikeouts in 12.2 innings worth.
Even I. Who can not puncuate or spell quickly enough to post. Wonders why if I know putting in Mateo is raising the WHITE flag the manager can not. Ok, Hargrove pulls Sherrill after pitchng to one left-handed batter, but leaves in Mateo. This is the game on the line situation.
Seriously, is this it for Hargrove, at last? How many more games can we lose because of absurd bullpen management. Is Soriano not available? What is wrong with 1.2 of Raffy, 1 of Lowe (hardly through any pitches yesterday) and then Putz? It really isn’t that hard, is it?
It’s like watching my dog eat grass. She is going to throw up, it’s just when
cheer up people…all is not lost…. Everett is still available off of the bench…..
C’mon – give Hargrove a break. He is trying something new. Last week he would only bring in Mateo to lose games in extra innings. Now he’s thinking creatively.
The “Red Sox Nation” fans are giving Lester an ovation, thus proving they are on par with Yankee Fan for being retards.
Jones had a not so good inning
172, it’s funny because it’s true.
176: He can always make up for it with his bat.
I must say, that commercial is much less creepy than most commercials for ED.
I don’t know what to think anymore. But it might be the three days of 90F+ heat fusing my synapses.
There had better be a good reason why Soriano wasn’t used there, like his shoulder blew up again or Hargrove challenged him to a fight.
Hargrove. Must. Go. Now.
Mateo joins Everett as another automatic out; when he comes in from the bullpen, the game falls out of reach.
Eleven11, nice analogy in 172.
OF COURSE Gonzalez baaaaarely makes the catch. Par for the effin’ course once the Mateo curse if thrust up on us
Does hargrove open his own fan mail? What if something “happened” to him?
rag on Redsox nation all you want but attendance was 42K last night…
Hargrove does not receive fan mail.
I like Adam Jones.
186
He will real soon…from the AL East teams
You think Hargrove gets fan mail???
Jeremy Reed? Whose Jeremy Reed?
I wonder when it’s going to occur to Washburn that he has at least 5 more wins if he can get to the 7th and let the real pitchers we have handle it from there?
Isn’t Ichiro due for a dinger?
Jeremy Reed? Whose Jeremy Reed?
Grammar Police. Up against the wall and spread ‘em.
It’s time for Ichiro to bust out that BP power
Jones now has a better OPS than Bloomquist. And he passes Everett with his next hit.
Why is WFB batting here?
191
Remember when he got into the 8th, and with Soriano not available, Grover let him hang out to dry (bases loaded no outs)
Gosh knows WFB is due for a dinger….
I can’t believe we have gotten ourselves to the place where Willie is left in to bat in this situation. Just ridiculous.
Against a righty, no less. Absurd.
Hmmm, if Jones and Ichiro double steal here, then maybe they’ll intentionally walk Bloomquist.
#193…I can’t fight Mozilla’s spellchecker…it is master to all……
Step into one Willie, it’s the only way you can be a “hero”.
Time to make your money, Adrian.
If I’m a GM and my reliever walks Bloomquist, BAM, pink slip.
that was a gritty at bat….
Im fine with Willie walking. If he’d do that more often he might be useful.
I predict an 0-2 count in Beltre’s near future.
He walked Willie!!!!
time for a little historical anomalization……..
It looks like willie has added walks to his repitoire
Please refer to post #81
207
yup
An intentional ball going to the backstop and scoring a run is probably more likely than Bloomquist coming through here.
Yeah, I’m magic. It’s the same thing every time he starts trying too hard. Take a strike, swing at crap, and blamo, 0-2.
Too bad it was followed by that K.
or not….
Willie is batting because Beltre is the only “second baseman” in the Mariners dugout.
I must say, that commercial is much less creepy than most commercials for ED.
“I’m Mike Hargrove. Sometimes, with my wife and I, a special moment, well, it doesn’t become the right moment. The little guy doesn’t get up throwing in the bullpen, if you know what I mean. And at moments like that, I take Coldshoweris.
“Other drugs for ED give you long-lasting erections that help make it the right moment. I don’t like that, because that’s not what the rules of the game are, and the little guy should only be used in a save situation. Coldshoweris, on the other hand, decreases the size of the member for up to 48 hours, and it induces Tourette’s-like symptoms that drive your lover away from you faster than Julio Mateo can whip his head around watching one of his floating changeups dial 9.
“If you’re like me, you want to do things your way. Coldshoweris is for you.”
Coldshoweris is not for everyone. Side effects may include loss of job, having Japanese people use metaphors comparing you to a tree, and a compulsion to keep going back to the well one too many times. Consult your doctor if you experience nausea, discomfort, or a desire to play a punchless, mediocre-gloved utility guy over a guy who can actually hit. Women should read special side effect warnings concerning enlarged prostate, prostate cancer, or the sudden appearance of a prostate in women.
Nice Richie type of at bat there Yo Adrian!
Too bad. He might have FINALLY gotten over the coveted .200 mark with RISP this year. As it is he plumments to the less coveted .160 mark with RISP and two outs.
Effin’ pathetic whether you’re making 15 mill or the minimum imho
the last couple of innings have been painful
Um, IdahoIvader, you saw the first inning, right?
Crap, seen that at bat before
Whaaaa…..
Mateo still in?
Hey, for the money they’re paying Adrian 1 for 3 with a double off the wall with RISP just isn’t good enough. He should be going 4 for 3 with RISP.
Throwing a foul ball back. That’s why the rest of America doesn’t take Seattle sports seriously. But hey, we’re learning.
OK, Raul, no lefties in the pen, work your magic. Watch Mateo pick up the win, ugh. Of course, I’d be thrilled, but…ugh.
It just occurred to me. Given the “I was total shit with the M’s but once traded become a useful player again” syndrome, Gas Can Mateo has good trade value right now.
Quick, call Cincinnati.
226: In that case, Mateo just lowered his trade value with that perfect inning.
Beltre is sooooooo not the problem with this team right now. I would put the following well before Beltre’s small data sample issues with 2 outs and RISP:
1) The worst performance by a manager I have ever seen in 35 years watching baseball (though I have to admit I was in California during both the Maury Wills and Jim Snyder years).
2) A DH that you can’t hide in your lineup, so, what the heck, hit him 6th anyway.
3) A terrrrible cleanup hitter (who, again, the manager will NOT move down in the order).
4) A lousy bench that is made even more lousy by the comically bad managing of it.
Funny how even 2-4 kind of come back to the man in charge, eh?
220 & 223
Just for the record I WAS INDEED counting his rare hit with RISP in the first inning. Case in point, here are his up to the minute stats that I predicted:
RISP: .196 (still sub .300slg)
RISP 2 outs: .160 (8 for 50)
BTW, that first inning hit hardly makes a pathetic 3 pitch K with the sacks jammed to end an important rally ok, does it? That last one was in the dirt, well out of the zone (like most 0-2 pitches) for goodness sakes.
Sorry I’m too hard on your guy
By the way, since June 1 (a period of 175 AB), Beltre is hitting 297/363/526.
231
He must be deadly with no one on or a guy on first. Because those ghastly RISP stats speak for themselves.
Don’t they?
231
I almost forgot. When was Adrian’s last hr?
Black and White, eh IdahoInvader?
233: Dodger Stadium.
By way of comparison, since June 1 Everett is hitting a robust 172/226/285. If you can look at that and think Beltre is the guy to put your energy into griping about, go for it.
Wow, Perez takes a cut, doesn’t he?
dont mess with ritchie…
Wow, Everett still on the bench, strange. DFA forthcoming?
236: With that logic, the only person we can complain about is Everett. That’s dumb.
II: it would be a rare guy whose career performance with RISP was dramatically different than his overall performance…
Johjima is due for a dinger isnt he?
240: Not saying that, but day after day of the same ridiculous rant from a particular person about a guy who’s hitting as well as he has is tiresome, given the other glaring problems with this team.
GOD DAMN MANNY SUCKS! THANK YOU YOU LOVABLE DEFENSIVE LIABILITY!
Manny is such a hack in left. It’s comic.
COMMUNISM!
Kenji!
I am growing to really love Yuni. Not in a sexual way, of course.
Zombie Nation!
I’ll drink to that.
getting ready to buy jersey….getting ready…..
I feel so much better.
Can someone tell me why Betancourt is hitting 8th and WFB hitting 2nd? It works out today, but I’d think you would want Betancourt up in the order.
236
If Everett had k’s on three pitches with the sacks jammed, then I obviously WOULD be bitchin’ about him.
It ain’t personal with me. I just call ‘em like I see ‘em. Fwiw I have complained PLENTY about Crazy Carl. He’s worse than Adrian all the way around.
If you can show me how RISP averages are irrelevant to scoring runs and thus winning, then I’m all ears.
243: I know what you’re saying, but IdahoInvader was arguing that Beltre isn’t earning his contract, and you responded by saying “Look at how poorly Everett is doing.” That doesn’t make sense.
Didn’t Yuni risk his life to flee communism?
c’mon jones…. park one in the cheap seats….
Don’t mind Idaho, he believes in “clutch”. He’d trade A-Rod for Eckstein, because Alex doesn’t have it.
Did anyone read the Hardball Times piece on Thursday about chances to improve the AL teams through trades?
Mariners rank “most improveable,” because of our good friend Carl. But how about Betancourt landing on the honorable mention list. What is that guy thinking?
That’s what makes this all so disheartening, isn’t it? This team is actually playing pretty darn well, but they keep getting sabatoged by their manager. Sure would be nice to be up 7-5 right now instead of tied because of Hargrove.
Didn’t Yuni risk his life to flee communism?
Don’t ruin my Betancourt loving. =)
243
I’ll make you a deal if this is so bothersome for you.
I’ll quit reminding people like you of how lousy he’s been with RISP if people like you quit defending him about it.
Ok?
Manny being Manny *hohoho*.
#252: clearly slick-fielding guys bat 8th and gritty guys bat 2nd…
geesh…it’s common baseball knowledge…
Manny literally booted that ball. How is that not an error?
257
Yeah, way to keep things in context, lol
Jesus, man, he gave us the lead today and drove in two runs with RiSP. Good grief.
You started this yesterday with “he can’t hit with runners on” and when that was pointed out to be false, you went and found out what stats you could use instead.
To quote Dave earlier in the thread:
“In his last 9 games, Beltre’s now at .351/.415/.568. That’s 13 for 37, 6 doubles, 1 triple, 4 walks, 7 strikeouts.”
He’s not the problem right now. And using stats that largely rest on his miserable April when he was in the 5 and 6 hole, doesn’t really convince.
Hendu’s theory on the flawed fielding statistics of the Sox indicates that he’s picking up on that good ol’ Rizz homerism quite nicely. He’s got a bright future with this club.
If Lowe is available today, why wasn’t he trotted out 2 innings ago?
well you can’t fault a baby rookie for that….
It’s Lowe. I guess it is official, Raffy isn’t available. I have only been watching the game spordadically, have they said anything about it Soriano on the air?
II: The reason RISP numbers are irrelevant is that they are (IMHO) largely based on luck. If not, they would be consistently higher or lower than a given batter’s overall numbers from year to year and they’re not. They fluctuate randomly for any given hitter from year to hear, which is a matter of their small sample size.
If Beltre was, as you contend, lacking in some sort of “clutchness” ability, how do you explain the fact that last year his OPS with no one on was 672, with men on 769, and with RISP 804? Last year (a year in which he obviously stunk most of the year) he possessed “clutchness” and this year he has hit better but forgotten his “clutchness”? It makes no sense.
John in L.A., I like Beltre almost as much as you do, but I think while the existence of clutch is very much debatable, the existence of chokers is not debatable to me. It obviously doesn’t tell the whole story with A-Rod, but they exist. Beltre may or may not be one, but he seems a little fragile mentally to me.
How were Idaho Invader’s comments different from comments 207 and 214? Bender saw it coming, we can all agree we’ve seen Beltre trying too hard, pressing, etc. Why shouldn’t we believe that, for now, he’s more vulnerable to that under pressure?
Lowe is doing well, but it seems like we’re seeing an awful lot of him. Does anyone know how frequently he was being used before he was brought up?
II: Having read your post 261 I’ll take your deal. I’ve had my say and will say no more.
6th inning: Beltre = *moan* Now, if the fences were in a bit, his 1st inning hit would have been a three-run dinger. But the three pitch non-AB in the 6th is what ulcerates my duodenum whenever I hear his name. He’s not useless, really he’s _not_, but he’s no one you can count on or build around. And batting him 3rd *hahhahhah* (who are those men in white approaching with soothing words?).
272 – See 271.
I’ll quit reminding people like you of how lousy he’s been with RISP if people like you quit defending him about it.
I find your faith in small sample sizes disturbing. I find your blind belief in “clutch” disturbing. And I think that your “reminding” people of what you believe to be Adrian’s deficiency is bordering upon an obsessive compulsive disorder.
So here’s a deal: Learn something about statistical analysis, and we promise to stop questioning you on everything. K? K.
They surely aren’t shy about using him.
I don’t mind it as long as he keeps it going.
Can somebody dierect me to that “other” Gameday (not the ESPN one)? The real Gameday’s not agreeing with my computer.
# 74: (Yeah, I’m a little late to the thread) It always drives me crazy how “commodity” is routinely used in baseball by pretty much every broadcaster (not just Niehaus) to mean “especially valuable, unique,” which of course is the exact opposite of the word’s actual meaning.
After the revolution, all baseball people will be re-educated as to the proper usage of “commodity.”
266
So you were ok with that at bat with the bases loaded?
THREE pitches, last one in the dirt?
You’re right he’s not the main issue right now. But you are delusional if you think going 8-60 with RISP and two outs and .196 with RISP ALL YEAR is only due to “miserable April.”
Is he really a dependable player to drive in runs? Is he earning his money in your opinion overall this year?
Why is it so hard to remember his last hr?
I’m just worried that Lowe looks like real talent and I don’t want his arm to fall off or his L-word to tear, if you know what I mean.
271, very good point and well said. I maintain, though, that failing to hit with runners in scoring position is not a particularly great measure of choking. I think it’s a huge red-herring in a lot of these discussions.
274
Sorry, I didn’t see that until now
Agreed
Lowe is looking damn good.
(By the way I just saw the best all-time Mariner in the cafe here at work today)
Re: 285
Glenallen Hill?
282: Lesbian?
Appropriate Lowe’s first walk is given up to the Greek God. Youklis just does not give away at bats, does he?
I heart Mark Lowe.
286
Hill had one of the all time classic Mariner plays in Tampa Bay:
Remember when he literally did a summersalt as he tripped going for a routine fly ball?
Glenallen Hill wasn’t the best ballplayer on the planet. But with that flat swing of his could he generate some serious line drive power.
Say what you want about Beltre at the dish, but I can’t remember a M’s 3B with that kind of leather.
Regarding Beltre there, I don’t care about RiSP, or even so much that he made an out; what I care about was the crappy, sucker-level AB by AB. _That’s_ the issue: he doesn’t bat smart, and can be pitched to. Other teams should feel pretty confident in getting him out. In his defense, he was facing a hard-throwing RHP in the sixth, but still we’ve seen that AB dozens of times in a year and a half.
Also the Boston 6th is the classic example of how NOT to utilize the bullpen. Guys on, the visitors best bats coming up, the Ms with a lead; who gets the call, a dominating arm to defend the lead, or a contact pitcher who’s been getting torched lately?? Now, this wasn’t just Grover, most managers make the same decision and ’save’ their best arms for late—but it’s stupid. The game’s crisis was right there, and a mediocre arm was asked to stand in harm’s way. What do we have Soriano _and_ Lowe for if not for one of them to stuff that rally??
281 – Again with the Strawmans. Just go back and read all the responses to you yesterday.
You are the only one arguing whether or not Beltre is earning his contract or anything of the sort.
You made a false assertion yesterday, were called out on it, and instead of moving on you went on a tangental mission, that really isn’t that well supported.
Only Perez has driven in more runs in this game, and half the line-up has failed with RiSP. So why fixate on one at bat from one guy who has been one of our best lately?
Not a single person here is saying Beltre is awesome or has lived up to his contract. Ok? No one.
I’m very worried about Soriano. No one has heard anything?
285: You saw Gorman Thomas in the cafe where you work today? That’s really cool!
Is Soriano in the bullpen?
293- the way managers use relief pitchers now drives me crazy too. Hell, I’d say bring in Putz. Maybe he won’t catch a save, but go with your best when you need outs most. I sometimes think managers own their closers on their fantasy team.
279 — The “Gameday” at mlb.com is pretty good.
Hahaha.
Neihaus: “Been a while since Willie has last had a home run. Of course, he doesn’t play much.”
292, David Bell’s career .980 fielding percentage isn’t to bad over at the hot corner.
HOLY CRAP!
THERE IS A BELTRE HR!!!!!
OMG
Beltre’s last home run!
HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would very much like to say something here but I have to abide by my deal.
I cannot believe what I just saw.
Beltre! That was awesome.
hope soriano didn’t get traded. the times reported teams have been asking about him. http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR
I love Manny Ramirez.
ADRIAN!!!
Idaho called, they want their Invader back.
wow WOW! clutch baby!
YESSSSS
Damn that was clutch.
Maybe the dweebs in the booth will now shutup about Buhners inside-the-park job.
Nahhhhh.
Dave must not be able to see at all. He said “fly away” on that ball by Beltre, but then after watching the replay said it went off the base of the wall.
Beltre almost hit two out today. Damn Safeco
I don’t fucking believe this!
Ichiro yes. AB!!?!?!
WFB needs to hit a grand slam next.
That should be an error on Manny, unfortunately. I wish it could be an inside-the-park HR.
And you know what?: Adrian will be designated this game’s ‘hero’ even though Crisp and Manny the Entertainer together had everything to do with a run being scored on _that_ one. Baseball: it’s a funny, funny game.
307
LOL..Nah, you’re allowed! Let me say that although some wouldn’t like the word “clutch” I’d say, despite no one on, that indeed was a clutch hit of epic proportions…and great hustle
That was awesome! Like I promised: Its not personal…I just try to call them like I see them. And likely will win the game. He deserves me taking back what I said regarding his last at bat.
ON MLB’s gameday, they say that ball hit on the grass before the warning track, which goes against Niehaus’s call of it off the base of the wall.
Those you blessed with TV, which is correct?
299: That’s the one I’m trying to use, and usually it is indeed good, but right now it shows Johjima grounding out to end the third, so I’m in the market for a new “Gameday”.
He hammered the shit out of that ball. I guess the baseball gods decided he deserved a HR after all.
Wow…that was amazing!
322- C’mon, Bela. He starts the game with a 2 run double, then the go ahead inside the park home run in 8th… don’t you think he deserves a little hero credit?
Any other park and they would have been two homers… so he did his best with what he had.
If it wasn’t for the fact that that would be a HR in many parks, I would say that shouldn’t be scored a HR, since there was all kinds of strangely bad defense on that play. Crisp misjudged the ball both by depth and was five feet to the side of where it hit the wall. Then the ball bounces off of Manny and he points to the ball again, like Crisp is his designated thrower or something. Then the Red Sox totally botch the whole cut-off man thing and trying to get the ball into home.
It turned out great for AB, and for hitting the ball that far, I say he deserves a HR, but what pathetic defense.
Anyone know what Putz’s theme music is? I think it might be the Cro-Mags.
323
That should say “and that hit likely will win the game.”
324 – Neither from my POV. It hit the top of the wall and bounced back in. That’s when it hit the grass on the warning track.
So is that a hit with a RISP? I mean… Adrian did score all the way from home to home…. SO he scored on his hit… therefore… he was a runner in scoring position…. right?
That ball hit near the top of the wall.
325: Sorry; I thought you were having trouble with ESPN’s site. Anyway both yahoo and sportsline.com have rudimentary game tracking.
Dave Niehaus cannot see the field anymore. Listen to him broadcast five games; it’s quite clear. Totally embarassing, but.
Now hit them in the puss with the Putz. He ain’t no palooka no more.
Something has to be wrong with Soriano. Until the game was untied Hargrove was going to leave Lowe in to pitch the 9th. No way he doesn’t use Soriano there if he’s available.
Soriano now hasn’t pitched in 4 days.
Why wouldn’t you use Sherrill to pitch to Ortiz here and then get Putz?
And the DISGUSTING KOMO adcast cuts off the start of the critical 9th inning _again_. I absolutely loathe this station, but they’ve bought my team’s time.
these next two hitters may very well determine the fate of the m’s season.
332
Not gonna bite…sorry
!SANSHIN!
OK, that’s why.
Nice K there J.J.!
Listen to the crowd! Baseball’s fun again!
Oh, and I agree that the defense was ridiculous… makes up for a couple of Jones’ moves today.
And, to be honest, Beltre probably shouldn’t have been heading for home. That’s the kind of thing that has been killing them all season.
But man he was running like a man possessed, can’t fault his effort… and that’s two monster hits in this game.
So good on him, he can be a bit of a hero today.
I love Putz. He makes the ninth inning fun again. Liek Kaz when he was on his game.
wow. epic shit.
Who would’ve thought at this time LAST year, Putz would be this devestatingly dependable…as the CLOSER no less?
JJ haet Manny being Manny.
“He did his best with what he had.” Yes, absolutely, and that’s to his credit. Adrian most definitely tries his hardest every play and every AB, and that’s what I like about him most. The holes in his game are huge, and I’d prefer that the org and his manager valued him at a more appropriate level, and compensated for those weaknesses as much as possible. We still have Carl Everett on this team because he was a ‘hero’ a couple of times early in the year with walk-off jobs. And Adrian hit the ball well there in the 8th, but the Boston’s defense gave the run away. Oh well.
Great split from JJ to snuff Manny the Huge.
That Manny K just looked like J.J. being J.J.
One more out…
…
Jason being Jason …
Damn, Varitek hit that shit a mile away.
346
Please tell me I didn’t jinx him for saying that
Manny too, what a machine.
Strike three on Manny was worse than the strike three on Beltre in the sixth.
…
Oh my god.
That was NOT J.J. being J.J.
i will now light myself on fire.
Damn….
Oh Gawd, don’t get too predictable with the pitching pattern, huh guys??
No more ‘hero’ for AB.
Sheeit.
334: Yea, sportsline.com was the one I was trying to find. Thanks.
Okay, on the bright side, Hargrove can’t put Mateo in the game now, right?
well, if the m’s don’t score here, we’ll really know if something’s up with soriano
364
Thank goodness, eh?
We just need one. Come on boys, yopu can do it!
Yes, that _was_ JJ being JJ unfortunately. If he falls in love with the mustard down the pipe, other hitters with ability can tag him and have in the past. The big difference this year is that mixing in the split intelligently doesn’t allow the batters to sit on dead red.
I’ve had the feeling since I got up and turned on the game that this one was going to be won by the team that bats last. Let’s see.
Dang…that 0-1 pitch was right down the pipe, belt high!
That HAD to be a mistake
SEXSON!
Give our M’s credit:
They sure never like to do things the easy way
But we’ll friggin’ take it!!!!!!
WHAT A GAME!!!
SEXSON!!!!! WOW WHAT A CRAZY GAME!
WELL THAT FIXES THAT SHIT!
I love Mike Timlin.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!! WALK-OFFF BY THE TEAM THAT BATS LAST!!!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!
greatest. game. ever. at least since ‘95.
RICHIE WITH THE WALK-OFF!
Ok, I can dig that! w00t!
What a game
Go home, folks!
Walk off HR from SEXSON! Who would have thought that.
Good night everybody! RICHIE WALKS OFF!!!!
Time to watch baseball tonight!
What a game.
368
I don’t know how to pronounce your handle, but you sure made a lot of sense today in ALL of your posts…especially that last one!
He has lots of lousy at bats. No one disputes that. What we dispute — as you know, I think — is that every time he has a lousy at bat, you moan like that’s all he does, even in a week where he’s hitting well, even in a game when he’s hitting well. Then when people roll their eyes at your tiresome little obsession, you start with your straw men arguments like the one I’ve quoted here.
Hitters fail most of the time. If all you want to do is moan about someone, you’ll get chances just about every game. If that’s your idea of fun. For the rest of us, it’s like hearing a ten-year-old at the ballpark shout “you suck!” all game.
Nice. Gotta love that.
Oh yeah!!! Let’s all go buy M’s jerseys!!!
_MIKE TIMLIN_ HAHAHAHAHA!!I. Oh, he’s an OK dude, but that somehow takes the smallest bit of bitterness out of the ‘97 Trade Massacres. He was the only guy of any value at all that the Ms acquired for trading away two position starters and a starting pitcher, so we’re OWED a win down the road somewhere, if not from him then off him. Sheesh, what a finish.
. . . And Papelbon is left sitting in the pen with the game on the line. Yep, that’s how this game is managed, smart or not. Not.
I will say that Richie played his XXXl ass off this entire series, so I’m happy to have him be the Designated Hero.
Golly
Well, when considering this game earlier today, this was pretty much how I had it would play out…
gonna buy a jersey, gonna buy a jersey, gonna buy a jersey….
“What do you think of mediocrity now?”
#348: the holes in his game aren’t huge…. hyperbole for fun is well fun but hyperbole during an argument is just, well, the worst thing that could possibly be done on the face of the earth….
386
I see what you’re saying, but there’s only been two threads all year that I remember quoting is RISP stats. Today’s and the one I think two days ago. Hardly an obsession.
I gave him credit when he did well too.
Remember, there’s nothing wrong with high expectations for a FA signing of his stature. The M’s weren’t paying close to Jeter money to get David Bell. But hopefully his good hitting spell will last the rest of the year and we’ll see some more power.
We’re all on the same side. If I’ve been too hard on his performance this year in your opinion, then I apologize. Maybe I’ve expected too much from Adrian when the season began.
Time will tell.
Yes, that _was_ JJ being JJ unfortunately.
I think that when someone has given up 1 HR in 45+ IP, and then he gives up a HR, that counts as uncharacteristic. Call me crazy.
Do you think Bill James has done the defensive analysis on the tradeoff in runs lost between Manny playing LF/DH vs. Ortiz playing 1B/DH?
‘Bell’-a Sha’-dushk.’ “Pall-casting Shadow-seizer,” with the -ux ending a bit of a grammatical fudge ’cause I like how it sounds. A variant on the name of the Eclipse major deity in an ancient tradition whose language and mythology I’ve been reconstructing in recent years. I work nights, and in that sense (and others) it fits. Got a solar eclipse [Eclipse major] on my screen saver at work.
I make sense sometimes, though I’m here for fun and to shoot my mouth off so when I don’t do my homework I can make an ass of myself sometimes. If I’m paying attention, sometimes I get a few things right, though.
A game we’ll remember and the Bosox will forget, but good fun. All is forgiven until the first pitch tomorrow. : )
It feels like some sort of karmic payback to M’s fans that they get to see the other team’s manager lose the game in the last at-bat without getting his best relief pitcher into the game.
Mariano Rivera gave up a homer yesterday too.
It’s only baseball.
Keep on rockin’ the free world JJ. You’re money, kid.
It’s especially perplexing Francona didn’t bring in Papelbon because Papelbon’s a guy who has always been a starter. he could easily come in and pitch 2 or 3 innings in a tie game.
Regarding Soriano, it seems either (a) he is sick/injured/unavailable, (b) he is about to be traded, or (c) he’s being rested so he can go long after they pull Joel Monday with a quick hook. Does anyone know which of this alternatives it is (or have any more theories)?
With Grover/Bavasi, there are ENDLESS possibilities no doubt
Mat, this year he _hasn’t_ given up many, yes, but careerwise he’s been vulnerable. Exactly because he throws it down the middle. In another year of fastball/split and low, low HR rates, we can say that _that_ performance is typical of him. I think that’s his future as long as they keep mixing up the fastball and split so there’s no predictable pattern. But looking at his time in the Bigs as a whole, he’s thrown some big gopher balls, and this instance says one still must keep that weakness in the back of ones mind. I’m not criticizing you, but I don’t forget his history. —And for all that, Putz gets the W! Baseball: A funny, funny game.
huge game….the Ms just took 2 of 3 from a world series contender… two in a row matter of fact….
Toronto,,,,,,be afraid…..be very afraid….
#403: ya, it’s pretty clear Putz hasn’t turned a corner…history is vital in this case
Beltre: Whether the glass is half empty or half full, it’s mighty expensive Bordeaux every time you pour. But I will also say that while I respect effort greatly, I respect intelligence and the ability to adapt the most. I’m always left missing the latter responses to watching Beltre play. That is my emotional response, and one day where he bangs a couple of balls doesn’t take that away because _every day_, regardless of what he does, I see the same friggin’ things. To cheer for the good, I’m not willing to forget the un-good, it’s all one package. Return to Sender (but come back and visit, Adrian, hey?).
I would guess Soriano is hurt. Not that something is torn, but he’s probably feeling some pain somewhere in his arm. Not a good sign, he shouldn’t try to pitch through it…they should shut him down for awhile if that is the case.
And after the 6th inning I turned the game off because I was so annoyed. Bad move. Sounded like a fun game.
I’m not down on Putz at all, BTW. He’s had a phenomenal year, and his pitch combination now is awesome. I wanted to see him throw the split—it’s the perfect pitch for his high heat—since Prize tried to teach it to him, but the new grip makes the wolrd of difference. Sometimes the other guy just beats you. . . . Mostly when you make a mistake pitch, which is what that was. The HR off JJ only tied the game, though, that’s the thing I take away from it.
Curious as to the Soriano situation as well, sincerely hoping that they are just reserving him to step into the rotation. However, it is a bit suspicious that Lowe has been thrust into such a role as he has and Soriano has not been anywhere to be seen in the last few days. If this was not the time around the deadline I don’t think it would raise many eyebrows, however, it is and brows are being raised. Lets just hope a) if he is traded it is a quality deal because he has worlds of value or b) he is being put in reserve to start for Pineiro because HE may be traded or c) he is in fact just sick or something to that effect and he will be back shortly.. Very suspicious though.
We doubt Hargrove all the time, but why wasn’t Papelbon brought in?
Oh well. : )
The Soriano situation is curious. He could certainly make a huge difference to other teams in the race.
Good question, but its not like Timlin hasn’t been a rock most of his career and anything like Mateo THIS year.
Timlin was 5-0 with a 2.29era entering this game. He was used in the role he’s usually been in. Its different when a loser like Mateo, who hasn’t had a long career and who’s been terrible this year, gets used unnecessarily when the closer could be put in.
on another note, I can only hope Wily Mo Pena wasn’t in the lineup today because the BoSox are sending him to Seattle for Meche and they are still working out some minor details….
Interesting #’s
——–W–L–RS–RA
Oakland 51 47 438 439
Seattle 47 51 467 465
When the Ms go into ‘non-announcement’ mode, my sense of the past is that it ususally involves a personnel move. I find it hard, quite hard, to believe that they would trade Rafael Soriano unless it was to bring back a truly major acquisition. It sounds on the face of it more to me that Pineiro or Meche are being actively discussed, with Rafe being stretched out to start on the QT since said deal-potential is delicate and not closed. Lowe’s arrival clearly allows the Ms to move someone from the pen into the rotation if an existing starter is dealt, and the more logical choice is Soriano since he’s been up all year, sustained his performance level well, and was brilliant through June. Furthermore, Lowe has been being used exactly in Soriano’s role since the break, so that suggests that Soriano is the one changing something imminently, roles or addresses. I smell ‘trade’ in this somewhere.
Would I move Rafael Soriano for the equivalent of Josh Beckett last year, or Dontrelle Willis this year, or a Grady Sizemore type when he was in Montreal’s org? Hell yes. But if it’s Soriano on the move, the deal had better be of comparable level. Rafe has a great package, so any player coming back has to be an established, upper tier talent, no maybes. But I’d far rather see Joel of Gil dealt, since neither figures to be here next year.
welcome on board wily mo….
terry, say it ain’t so!!??
“I find it hard, quite hard to believe that they would trade Rafael Soriano unless it was to bring back a truly major acquisition” Well, youwould think so but the reason I am against all but clearing off dead wood trades is that Bavasis’ track record here sucks. He would trade him for two light hitting toolsy short stops and an injured but high potential pitcher.
lets see barry zito against a lineup with Perez and Pena in it… we can have two DH’s right?
well i can dream anyway….
Wily Mo for Soriano would be a terrible terrible trade.
Bavasi’s trades haven’t been that bad.
Winn for nothing. Garcia for nothing, Look, my view is that if the M’s look internally, they can make a decent club. Production from Sexson and Beltre solve many issues. Cut or trade C Rex, Trade Mateo, get Doyle up here, get another IF UT guy, send Dobbs back down and get Shoo up here for another OF Ut guy. Tell Grover that he gets no more pitchers, he has enough, and go for it. Grover we are stuck with so no reason to hash that. Jeez, it’s hard to type after the first victory martini!!!!
Oh, I forgot Guillen for nothing
The concepts behind the Garcia and Winn and Villone trades were sound, and in both cases the packages were about as much as could be optained. In the case of Foppert and Bazardo, we took back risk to get potential, and it was the risk that won. The fact that none of these deals paid off could be ascribed to bad luck. If things had been reasonable, the Ms would have netted one significant talent from the three deals, maybe. I _don’t_ call it bad luck, because I just don’t think Bill Bavasi has a good feel for performance; he sees tools, but doesn’t see skills nearly as well, to me. The deal that really defines Bill B. for me is the one that wasn’t, Reed to Boston. He made the wrong call on the player he kept, and that is _sooooooo_ much like how I see him. So no, I don’t really have much confidence in him as a trader. Of course, if he dealt Soriano for Dontrelle Willis, all is forgiven.
Rafael Soriano is entirely different: he’s young, cheap, under club control, highly talented, good enough for late innings relief, but a pretty fair shot as a starter. Entirely different package. But I don’t want him dealt. It’s more likely Joel Pinada for ‘nother package like we’ve seen before, saving a couple of million to protect the owners’ fat, slack, bottom line in this soft-market year.
[what the heck does that even mean]
That had to feel soooo good for Richie. If there’s one thing that _is_ different about the ‘06 Ms, they stay in more games and keep clawing away. There’s more life. Adding Betancourt and Lopez, and getting a deadly pen set up with Eddie now excused from attendance, that’ll put some zip in a club, and these guys, though they can be sloppy, do keep kicking on the door of a win. ‘Course if they had the big bat they’re missing, they could just turn the knob and walk through, but.
Why is Bazardo considered a bust? He’s 22 years old. In AA he’s started 18 games. He’s 5-3. His ERA is 3.20. 95 2/3 IPs, 55 K, 34 BB, 7 HR. Hardly the stuff of legends, but he still seems to have time.
Foppert is injured, but, again, all of 26. These trades were not made for instant returns.
Of course, Nathanel Mateo seems to be useless.
Bazardo’s K rate has plunged at exactly the point he shoud be taking off, with no compensatory positives. Dave here has positied that the organization believes he’s got arm problems, and his results suggest that. Good pitchers in San Antone should have an ERA of about 2.70 or so. He’s not throwing now at a level that will get him to the majors.
Foppert: Still injured, missing almost all of a year for the second time; velocity down; he’s 26. He’s not even a prospect, and barely a suspect at this point. Again, he and Bazardo both _may_ yet pay off, but likely not even next year, and other guys in the organization are flying by them: Lowe, Rohrbauigh, Feierabend, Cruceta frankly. Cruceta right now is doing what Bazardo would have to do to stay in the picture.
John Hickey on the P-I blog:
The Mariners tried to keep it quiet while the Red Sox were in town, but Rafael Soriano’s shoulder was acting up again.
Manager Mike Hargrove said the reliever doesn’t have an injury as such, but this is the second time in about a month when the Mariners have opted to give Soriano some time off to rest the shoulder.
”He should be fine for the Blue Jays,” Hargrove said. ”We think it’s just a little sore, and we don’t want it to become a big deal.”
Can we secretly send a note to Grover, in Mateo’s handwriting, saying how hurt and sore HIS shoulder is?
I’m not sure how you can say we traded Garcia for nothing. The consensus around baseball was that Ken Williams got fleeced. Looks like the deal didn’t pay off, but that’s just going to happen sometimes.
#429 — Then is was nice of Jamie and the offense to get into a quick eight run hole on Friday, thereby negating the need to bring in a quality reliever and allowing for the use of Woods and Fruto.
i’d trade MECHE for wily mo….
At the time, I liked the Garcia deal. We had no catching depth. We needed a quality, near-MLB ready position player, and we didn’t want Garcia’s salary, didn’t look like he would re-sign here anyway.
That’s really all you can do is evaluate is what you think of a deal at the time. Eventually, the truth will be told, but nobody can look into the future and you can always see the past.
So Betancourt has quietly become a .300 hitter, impressive
12 game hitting streak for Betancourt, too
Talking down Putz for giving up a HR is ludicrous. If you can re-cast his entire season based on a single pitch, you are a sage far too talented for this humble exchange of opinion.
Putz dominated two of the best hitters in baseball prior to that HR. Sometimes the hitters win. They just do. Live with it.
What about a Soriano for Soriano trade?
“That had to feel soooo good for Richie.”
See, why can’t you feel that way for Beltre? Your reaction when it looked like he was going to be the hero was quite the opposite.
And yet Sexson has an even lower OPS than Beltre.
And that, in a nutshell, is why, although I take your analysis and insight very appreciatively, on this one issue, I don’t think you see clearly.
I only defend Beltre on issues where I think it is possible to defend him… and lately there have been more and more of those.
It’s a strange phenomenum I have mentioned before… people always seem to think Bloomquist, for example, is doing better than he is, even people who don’t like him, and people always seem to think that Beltre is doing even worse than he is.
I suppose much of that is due to his godawful April, got fixed in people’s minds.
Who thinks Bloomquist is good at anything other than stealing bases?
Who thinks Bloomquist is good at anything other than stealing bases?
Off the blogs? Quite a few people. Most particularly, Mike Hargrove.
438: Yeah, I’m going to give up one of the more awesome young pitchers in the game with the potential to start for a half season of Alfonso Soriano. No way in hell do I make that trade.
I wonder if the Red Sox have ever considered playing circus music when Manny Ramirez is in the outfield. His outfield hijinks today were hilarious.
#443: Uh, that “HR” was on Coco far more than Manny. Coco went to the fence and jumped (presumably to try to rob a HR) and the ball bounced off the fence five feet to his left. Then Manny tried to barehand the ball and throw it in (which he does in Fenway all the time, mind you) and, yes, booted the ball back toward the fence. Coco then overthrew two cutoff men. If he hits either one of them, Beltre does not come chugging aroung third.
But Manny has funky hair and won’t talk to the press, so you’re probably right, he’s a clown.
Don’t forget Manny’s sliding kick save of the ball hit by Johjima. Manny probably thought he was in the World Cup for a second.
Who thinks Bloomquist is good at anything other than stealing bases?
He doesn’t appear to have much value in stealing bases any longer, to be honest…
John, you keep pushing at my response to Beltre, and that’s understandable since you’ve watched Adrian for years, he’s basically a good joe, and you root for him.
So I’ll put it in a nutshell on Adrian so you know what it is you don’t like when I post up: a) he doesn’t play at all smart, and fundamentally I don’t respect that. He plays HARD but he doesn’t play smart. That’s my perspective; no one has to share it, but it’s a perspective rooted in observed, factual behaviors. Over 40 years I’ve seen numerous gutsy, competitive, hypertalented athletes disappoint on their physical potential and their context’s need for them to meet rather than fail to meet that potential, and every time I watch Adrian with a bat in his hands or running the bases I see another one. I root for him totally when he’s wearing leather, if that makes you feel any better. b) Adrian is being paid to carry the team based on one season he had just before he came here. He can’t and wont carry the team, and I don’t see it as likely that he’ll ever repeat that year. One could blame management for that, or blame no one for that. As time goes on, I become more and more suspicious of that year. I’m sure that that will strike you as unfair, and in significant part it _is_ unfair. It’s how I feel. If he’d never had that year, and management had signed him to the same contract, I’d blame them, not him, so there’d be no b).
I’d rather have a smart player who was worth the dough who could carry the team, and every time Adrian goes out and has a three-predictable-bad-guess AB with critical runners on base I’m reminded of what I don’t like. His ‘hit’ in the 8th that ‘would have been out of most parks’ should have been caught in _this_ park, so basically feeling good about him for a result that is someone else’s mistake . . . doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Unless one wants to feel good about him, or make excuses for him, and since you do, by all means go right ahead.
Regarding Putz and the HR, now I wasn’t slagging the mate at all, but let’s see this for what it is: Sometimes the hitter just beats you, but a lot more hitters beat you if you chuck the pellet right down the middle of the friggin’ plate, even at 98. Up to this year, and even once in April, Putz has had a history of going to too many consecutive fastballs over the plate until a hitter tagged him for a four-bagger. It’s something to keep in mind with him, very definitely. The main reasaon he _isn’t_ doing this now, as far as I can tell, is that Johjima in particular is mixing the split better in his pitch calling, from what was said in several game situations earlier this year.
Furthermore, a good part of what has made Putz so good this year is that his _location_ of the fastball has been, to me, much more consistent, and much better considered. He seems to be able now, as never before, to reliably throw the fastball on the outside corner to RH hitters; he regularly gets called strikes there to both RH and LFers. He also pretty consistently ‘challenges’ the hitter, especially really good, dangerous hitters, with the ‘rising fastball’ that ends up around the letters. Even if hitters swing at these pitches, they can’t get the head of the bat on the ball on a good swing plane, and they yield long but manageable flyball outs. Now, I was listening on the radio so I don’t know where JJ threw the fastball that Varitek took deep. If someone can tell me Jason did a Vladimiracle and hit a pulled a non-strike that hard, high and far, I will totally praise his name and line, and say that JJ had nothing to do with the outcome. But it’s got to be pretty much a certainty as far as guessing that a hit with that outcome was from a pitch in the fat part of the plate. That’s called ‘a mistake,’ and is of the kind the JJ makes if left to his own devices historically. I love the guy, don’t take it any other way, but it doesn’t make me blind to his pitching tendencies. And certainly smart, smart hitters like Jason Varitek pay close attention to those tendencies.
“Unless one wants to feel good about him, or make excuses for him, and since you do, by all means go right ahead.”
I missed the part where I sing Beltre’s hitting praises and laud his ability to live up to his contract.
Like I said, I defend what is defendable.
I think I project Beltre pretty realistically. I have bet that he will end the season at a .780 OPS or higher.
That is not good, but pretty remarkable after his start.
At the beginning of May, I believe we had this discussion and you pretty much thought April was what we were going to get and dismissed my suggestion that he would improve. SInce then he has.
So now we have a guy that has put up a .900 OPS for two months while playing outstanding defense at a key position.
And a guy that almost certainly would be putting up much better numbers than that if he wasn’t playing at SafeCo as it is currently designed. Witness his home/road splits.
Is that really worth the animosity? Really? When he’s outplaying Sexson who you seem to want to give a free pass?
So is MY position distorting reality or is it the position that wants to point to his failure in one at bat in a game where he drove in three runs, twice giving his team the lead?
“His ‘hit’ in the 8th that ‘would have been out of most parks’ should have been caught in _this_ park, so basically feeling good about him for a result that is someone else’s mistake . . . doesn’t make a lot of sense.”
Another good example of the distorted lens… “should have been caught”?? It bounced off the top of the wall. Not giving him credit for that hit is beyond ridiculous. Should it have been a double? But caught? C’mon.
If you don’t want to credit him for that piece of hitting, Bela, it isn’t me that is dealing with a skewed perception.
I know Beltre’s flaws, I discuss them endlessly. I know how much he fails here… but you don’t know when he doesn’t.
#422 – Those trades weren’t for nothing. Apparently you don’t get that trades involve risk for both sides. At the time of the deals, they weren’t bad.
Only time will truly tell. I’m no Bavasi fan, but he’s made some pretty decent trades. Now if only he can figure out who to sign during free agent season and we’d be good to go.
The pitch to Varitek was a slider on the inside half.
#448 (and #451): Now, I was listening on the radio so I don’t know where JJ threw the fastball that Varitek took deep.
As dirk said, it was a slider, and I cannot imagine what scouting report the M’s had that said you should throw an offspeed pitch to Tek. All you had to do was watch Washburn K the guy on high hard stuff early in the game to know that was a good plan and that they should stick with it. Tek is a 34 year old catcher. His bat is slowing down.
#445: Don’t forget Manny’s sliding kick save of the ball hit by Johjima. Manny probably thought he was in the World Cup for a second.
Sure, and Mr. Adam Jones had an awful sixth inning in the outfield, too. Do you think the M’s could borrow that tape of circus music to play for him?
Manny Ramirez is going to the Hall of Fame, and very likely on the first ballot. Clown, indeed.
re: 453.
You a Red Sox fan or something? You’re a little oversensitive about Manny’s “defense,” aren’t you?
Funny you should ask. Actually, I’m an M’s season ticketholder since before Safeco opened. How are those credentials for you?
You may be a Mariners’ ticketholder, but you act like a Red Sox fanboy.