More moves
Dave · August 20, 2006 at 5:38 am · Filed Under Mariners
Not official, but will be soon:
Cha Seung Baek up, takes Moyer’s rotation spot.
Mark Lowe to the DL – he probably won’t pitch again this year, precautionary move.
Sean Green up.
The M’s just don’t want to take any chances with Lowe’s arm, so they’re going to shut him down and save him for next year.
I felt that might be coming with Lowe. And while it would be fun to watch him if he was right, given that the year is sunk it makes sense. With Lose shut down, and Soriano soon to follow, the pen won’t be Grover’s security blanket anymore.
“the pen won’t be Grover’s security blanket anymore.”
Good news! More losses. Dave, time to examine draft picks?
After Baek’s performance he deserves the chance. As for Lowe, He should be ‘shut down.’ Grover will continue to use him like that. Time to think about Soriano too. Should probably put both on 60 day so that they can then can promote this year’s Atchinson/Harris/Bubela type.
It is sad we have to shut a pitcher down because the manager doesnt know how to use him? Well maybe you change managers and for that matter the GM also he is the one who hired him.
um, not quite what Dave said there…
I love watching Mark Lowe pitch. If I have to go without that for the next 6 weeks or so just so I can watch it for the next several years, I am ok with that.
So they’re shutting Lowe down but not Soriano? Curious.
I thought the same thing.
Soriano should follow soon. Hopefully. Hell, shut down Felix too.
Tough to argue with those moves.
Cruceta pitched (very well) yesterday. I have to think that he will be up before too much longer.
I agree it makes sense to shut down Felix now. However the only logical reason for it is to keep Grover from breaking him. Because they They can’t really admit that and not fire Grover so they will just take their chances.
I know there are Bavasi defenders here but, if Felix gets injured, the front office will be equally at fault with Grover. In short the refusal to can Grover means they have to accept the blame for his actions.
A bullpen minus Lowe (and either with an injured Soriano or missing him) and a rotation of Felix with inconsistent command, Bad Meche, Washburn and Replacement Level Pitchers Du Jour has the potential to make the rest of the year really, REALLY ugly, when you combine it with Hargrove. Like Baltimore’s 4-24 collapse in 2002 ugly-we might be looking at a 3rd consecutive 90 loss year (right now, if the M’s go one game over .500 the rest of the way, they end up 76-86, so 90 losses is definitely possible), something we haven’t seen since in 25 years.
Good, shut down Lowe and Soriano. Keep them as far away from hargrove as possible.
I would argue against shutting Felix down now, but I certainly wouldn’t let him go over 200IP. I’d give him 8 more starts.
I know there are Bavasi defenders here but, if Felix gets injured, the front office will be equally at fault with Grover. In short the refusal to can Grover means they have to accept the blame for his actions.
If Felix blows out his shoulder or elbow, then yes, I think we’d all be at the front gates with torches and pitchforks asking for the entire FO.
But there’s no real reason to shut him down before mid-September. He’s still well short of 200IP and is showing no discomfort. And Hargrove knows that if he leaves Felix out there for 140+ pitches the Sounders will be playing soccer with his head the next day.
Felix needs to learn how to pitch against real hitters, and he’s not going to do that sitting on his ass in Venezuela playing dominoes with Hugo Chavez throughout September.
And with Lowe, you have to wonder how much of this is Hargrove and how much of it is Lowe really trying hard. Lowe threw 18 1/3 innings in 15 games with the big club this year, and he only threw on consecutive days once. OTOH, he threw 67 pitches combined on August 2 and 5, then got shut down because of discomfort.
I’m not defending Hargrove at all, but it does seem like Lowe was overthrowing when he was given the opportunity to appear.
Its not so much the games these guys pitch in.Its all the times they are up and dont get in games that also counts.These wear pitchers out just as much as getting in games.Ive read this many times from relievers saying a manager who gets guys up and doesnt use them are the ones who kill arms and careers.That could be the case here ive noticed soriano and lowe and sherrils velocity have all been down lately.
Even if you don’t shut Felix down…why not just give him an 85 pitch limit every outing.
After all, doesn’t the research indicate that it is pitching long into games, allowing fatigue to set in and affect pitching motion, that leads to injury? 85 pitches should allow him to finish the year, so that his weekly mental preparation doesn’t take a hit, but would minimize the chance of injury from overwork.
“…has the potential to make the rest of the year really, REALLY ugly….” And we would be able to distinguish that from the season as it has been so far– how, exactly? I mean, it can’t really get any worse than the current road trip, can it? Certainly not in terms of games won or, uh, not. Yeah, the individual performances can go south, so that the infield starts playing like the Royals or something. But it’s not like the bats are going to go more silent than they are, and it’s not like the W-L record does anything at this point but improve the draft position and the odds Hargrove will be looking for work. On the other hand, we have a few new faces on the club to watch. Be positive: the rebuilding has started (there are just a few rotted leftovers like Hargrove hanging around, waiting to be demolished). Think of it as extended Spring Training.
I do wish the club practiced demand-based pricing for its walkup tickets, however. I might actually go to a couple of games if the seats had spring training prices.
And Hargrove knows that if he leaves Felix out there for 140+ pitches the Sounders will be playing soccer with his head the next day.
There is really no record of the front office ‘correcting’ Grover over anything so far. Admittedly, it is not the sort of thing they would discuss with the press, but the available data indicates that they have taken a hands off approach to his managing.
I generally support this theory of leadership – let people do their jobs – but the inevitable flip side is you have to hold them accountable. It seems clear that Grover has underperformed against expectations and has possibly harmed the future interests of the club by overusing Soriano and Lowe.
The facts is Grover leaves his young pitchers in for too long while at the same time not playing his young position players enough. That is precisely the wrong managerial approach for the M’s right now. For example the team needs to see more of Doyle now and less of Soriano. Grover’s demonstrated inclination is the reverse.
If Grover should be the manager of any major league team (which I doubt) it should be for an established veteran team with a ‘win now’ imperative – not for a team that needs to rebuild with youth.
Bavasi and the rest of the front office are not responsible for the ‘play for one run’ approach of Grover or the senseless use of the Ignitor as a leadoff hitter, for example. They are responsible for choosing and keeping the wrong manager.
I just hope it doesn’t get worse.
Hargrove knows that if he leaves Felix out there for 140+ pitches the Sounders will be playing soccer with his head the next day.
And if that happens, Bavasi’s head should be used for punting practice at the Seahawks training facility.
Speaking of shutdowns, the Reds just put Eddie Guardado on the 15-day disabled list with left elbow tendinitis.
19-
Well, you have a point, but up until August 1 this looked like a team that had made substantial progress.
Now… well, they are a team that looks like it could lose 90. Ouch.
Okay. So what about Soriano now.
This pen is going to be rough getting if we elect to shut down Soriano too. I mean, I only have confidence in Putz and Sherill after that. Yeesh.
September will be an ugly, ugly month.
Bavasi and the rest of the front office are not responsible for the ‘play for one run’ approach of Grover or the senseless use of the Ignitor as a leadoff hitter, for example. They are responsible for choosing and keeping the wrong manager.
Who’s in the second year of a three year deal. You or I would have canned Hargrove’s ass early this year, but I wonder how many major league teams would have done that….
September will be an ugly, ugly month.
Just view it as a kind of pre-spring training camp.
60 day dl a bunch of them and have tryouts in september.This also means playing jones and snelling daily so what if we lose 95 we have done that the last 2 years playing with a 95 million dollar pay role.
If we were how far back we were to begin the year, I’m sure Hargrove would be gone.
We were never really all that far back to justify it. I mean, that Kansas City series a while back, that was borderline, and we ended up sweeping. It’s just an example of how this team can beat bad teams but not good teams, but it kept the record good enough for Grover to stay around.
Generally decisions like this will revolve around the team’s record, not actual managerial philosophies, which is bullshit. That said, he won’t be back next year. Neither will Meche, Pineiro, and I for one hope, Mateo. Hopefully we’ll find a manager that knows what Willie’s value is, and that’s not starting.
But actually, the more we lose, the better draft pick we get next year. So… I don’t mind taking the fall.
This team has so much more potential than the record has shown lately or overall this year. They just need to start making the right adjustments.
Its not so much the games these guys pitch in.Its all the times they are up and dont get in games that also counts.These wear pitchers out just as much as getting in games.Ive read this many times from relievers saying a manager who gets guys up and doesnt use them are the ones who kill arms and careers.That could be the case here ive noticed soriano and lowe and sherrils velocity have all been down lately.
You are more right than you know. Soriano and even Sherrill really should be shut down for the rest of the year. Especially Soriano. I have it on good faith that his health is of major, major concern.
I think they ought to put Hargrove on the DL and call up Dan Rohn to replace him, at least for the rest of the year. Can “Too stupid to find socks” be a good enough reason for the DL?
While they are at it, Jeff Harris is back from injury and pitching very well at Tacoma. We deserves to be back up at the major league level so he can prove what he can do for the Mariners. If he doesn’t hack it, let him go to another club. I know he will do a great job!
#28 This is three years of non adjustments at 95 million per year.How long to we have to wait?
Hargrove is a dead man walking; even he knows that.
The timing of his execution is in the hands of some junior marketing exec’s 2007 ticket sales plan. The FO needs “events”, and plenty of them, to beg the fan base to buy tickets. Canning Hargrove is just a future event for which the junior marketing exec trying to optimize scheduling.
…marketing exec *is* trying to …
sorry.
Actually, they’re just planning to shut fown Mark Lowe until his hair grows back. He was doing just fine until the haircut!
On the pre-game they said Ichiro asked to start in center, so Snelling gets a start in RF again today. Now that’s 2/3rds of a great outfield.
On the pre-game they said Ichiro asked to start in center, so Snelling gets a start in RF again today. Now that’s 2/3rds of a great outfield.
WHAAAATT??????
Hm. Erm….
WHAT BIZARRO WORLD AM I IN????? And HOW did I get in it?? (Cause I want to find the exit and make sure I don’t get chucked out again!?
#32 — Hargrove was a dead man walking in May. However the team may a little headway and that saved his job. That is what has gotten him so far in the year.
Holy crap, Ichiro is in center field today. Doyle in right.
A week or so ago I speculated on whether the M’s would put on a finishing sprint and finish once again with over 90 losses. It is no longer speculation….it is a sure thing.
I am curious about the Moyer trade….why would he agree to go this year to the Phillies, when he could have gone last year to the Astros, and pitched in the World Series? Does anyone know anything about the two guys the M’s got from the Phillies?
The only exciting thing the M’s have done is put Ichiro in Center, and Doyle in Right…..Right On! Now shouldn’t Jones be playing somewhere every day….like in Tacoma?
Oops….sorry for the posting #39, asking about the Moyer trade….I missed the previous thread and all of the discussion….my bad.
I agree with shutting Lowe down, but Soriano looks like a much higher priority to me. Why in the world is he still pitching???