-
Buy the book
The Cheater's Guide to Baseball
"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
Larry Stone Goes Yard
Larry Stone pulled off the writer’s version of a longball with today’s piece, “Bavasi trudges on in search of a win”. It’s articles like this that illuminate why he’s on an entirely different level than the rest of the sports writers in this city. Some of the interesting blurbs:
Bavasi won’t get into a conversation about Hargrove’s status or job performance, except to say that he has “shown great patience in a bad situation, which is not an easy thing to do. We’re dealing with a lot of young kids that are overmatched, I guess, and some veterans that apparently are not performing up to their abilities.”
Apparently.
“It’s difficult to swallow,” Bavasi said. “I’ve seen teams do this, but they usually have less ability, in my opinion. There’s some serious underachieving going on.”
Bill Bavasi doesn’t like talking to reporters, and he’s one of the best in the game at saying nothing of interest when a microphone is in front of him. Stone’s ability to get a quote like this that is legitimately intriguing is just good reporting.
That was evidenced by Saturday’s trade of Jamie Moyer, which was an emotional punch to the gut for fans already steaming over the mounting losses — but also the right thing to do for the organization…
It was also the right thing — and highly overdue — for Ichiro to move to center field, giving the club the perfect opportunity to give the ever-enticing Chris Snelling a long look in right.
More proof that Larry Stone understands the dynamics of how to build a baseball team. He avoids the easy article that everyone else is writing about how the team sold off a local legend for two no-name prospects and calls the trade what it was - the right thing to do. He also manages to get Bavasi to mention that the Ichiro-as-CF move is going to stick for a while, which is just fantastic news.
This might not seem the right time to put forward this thought, but I truly believe the Mariners are closer to contention right now than they were last August. All it will take this winter is daring, vision, a prudent game plan, and a little bit of providence (such as winning the bidding for Japanese ace Daisuke Matsuzaka).
Coming off an 0-11 road trip against the division, Stone avoids the sky-is-falling column that would have been so easy to write, and instead finishes the article with a reminder of the reality that this team is actually headed in the right direction. Stone’s exactly right - this team is closer to contention now than they were a year ago, and there’s no reason to be writing off 2007 right now.
We’ve said a lot of good things about Larry Stone on the blog the past few years. It’s columns like today’s that explain why. He’s very, very good at what he does, and we’re lucky to have him covering the Mariners.
Comments
-
USSM uses and recommends
A very good column indeed. I agree with him on basically every point: trading Moyer is OK, you might as well trade Meche, Ichiro to center means outfield flexibility (Ibanez to DH or 1B), the team needs Snelling to help their pathetic OBP, and so on.
Speaking of Meche, the Mets might be in pretty desperate need for a starter depending on what happens with Glavine. I wonder if he cleared waivers. David Wells did, so maybe the Mets will go there instead.
As a fan, I HATE seeing Moyer leave - but I can understand Bavasi’s thinking quite easily enough to go along with it. Bavasi is a tough, tough love for me, though. I was not at all, at all in favor of his taking over this team, but have had to give him credit more often than not.
I liked, even on the darkest days, Beltre and Sexton, and I was thrilled that our guy Joh came over and has been a success.
It’s just that we are STILL miserable losers! That ISN’T RIGHT! And I want proof from somewhere that the factor that has us in last place instead of first, Mike “The Snatcher from the Jaws of Victory” Hargove, is not his, to me. beyond even the slightest hope of forgivable, choice.
“We coulda been a contendah!”
Oh, and I so love reading a sports column like this, and feeling a tremor in my usually unshakeable (and humorously overstated) disgust with the fraud that is most “sports journalism.”
This post was made at 3:31am in Dave’s world. That’s hardcore.
Great article too.
Ichiro in CF opens up many doors for the M’s. Man, I hope he’s game for a full time move there.
[sorry, not in the mood]
4: Yeah, booing players sure makes them play better. Ask A-Rod.
So what if we can’t get anything for Sexson in the offseason? Do we get rid of him for the sake of doing so?
Here’s hoping that Snelling doesn’t trip and pull a hamstring as he walks through that open door. His RF audition is one of the few compelling reasons to watch games.
As for underachieving veterans… On balance, I believe many of the key players on this team will complete the season with statistical performances that are within expectation, albeit the lower reaches. What *kills* are the peaks and valleys: the miserable first two months of the season, solid June against less competitive teams, contention during the month of July, and then this horrible August.
And the losses within the division… What can Bavasi (or his replacement) do to create a team next year that’s more competitive with the A’s, Angels, and Rangers? Can the Mariners build a team to beat AL West teams in the same way the Yankees might structure a roster to beat the Red Sox or a likely playoff opponent?
Man it seems like just either a) signing Zito or b) him leaving the division would equal a dozen more wins for us. Or just sign a dozen Bloomquist clones to play on the days we face him.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that Mr Stone speaks with honesty, clarity, and confidence. Reading this is like a breath of fresh Seattle air after a spring or summer rain storm which we have not seen for what seems like forever. Just as long as it has been since an M’s victory.
If Bavasi is so concerned about a v then he should look no further than his manager.Either he does not see that the manager is responsible here and the players failure to live up to expectations is secondary or he is being professionally polite to not condemn his manager in public. I am disheartened and scared by Bavasi’s words that ” he has shown great patience in a bad situation”.
Bavasi is showing great patience in a very bad situation and he needs to have more than patience. Every fan in Seattle knows what has to be done. Bavasi doesn’t do it because he hired the man and , of course it would be admitting he failed as well as the manager. This year a firing is more needed than the previous firing two years ago. (whose name eludes me at 4am).
If you want a v ,Mr Bavasi, you are going to have to get it yourself by doing what has to be done. The boo birds will be out tonite in Seattle, as they should be.
Who are the vetrans who are under achieving?Beltre?Career 270 hitter 20 hr 80 rbi guy seems to be right on pace.Sexson career 247 hitter 30 hr 105 rbi seems to be on pace other then batting avg?Itch isnt hitting 350 the guy is human no one hits 350 every year.Im missing the vetrans larry was talking about.Moyer he pitched alot better then his record after getting the worst run support in the AL.I think the players that have been brought in are doing what they have allways done in there careers.Maybe we over valued them when we signed them and nobody wants to face those facts.I am making my call today that after 3 last place finishes in a row the mariners extend Bavasi for 2 years.That was hard for me to say and if it happens we will have 5 last places in a row and my drinking problem will get worse.
if the banned subject list still exists, could we add to it, prefacing any statement about Doyle with a lament about his body?
Stone shows up on KJR every tuesday aft.; it will be interesting to see if the eternal Mariner pessimist Groz asks him about this column.
Well. clearly Beltre and Sexson have improved, but they were so bad in the first 2 months that they put the team in a hole. But I think you can look at the pitching rotation’s veterans and easily spot the disappointments Bavasi refers to. Piniero is getting over 6 million this year. Washburn. Meche. Those guys aren’t rookies. And they are hurting us *badly* on the field as well as financially.
Hmm…
The team was in the hole but in beginning of August they were in the thick of things and not for this 11 game slide, they would still be in the hunt. The entire team except for one or two players has collapsed and there is only one person I can see as responsible.
So if Pineiro has been removed from the starting rotation…what are the team’s plans for him? He hasn’t been sent down. I also haven’t heard about him going to the bullpen. What are they doing with him the rest of the season?
If Bavasi is so concerned about a v then he should look no further than his manager.Either he does not see that the manager is responsible here and the players failure to live up to expectations is secondary or he is being professionally polite to not condemn his manager in public. I am disheartened and scared by Bavasi’s words that ” he has shown great patience in a bad situation”.
Why? That IS being professionally polite.
I don’t understand it when fans get their panties in a bunch when a GM or manager uses plain, everyday courtesy in their statements to the press. It’s simple, common sense and decency not to stick the knife in someone’s back–are we so bereft of courtesy and decency that we don’t understand it when someone DOES have a shred of it?
I don’t understand it when fans get their panties in a bunch when a GM or manager uses plain, everyday courtesy in their statements to the press. It’s simple, common sense and decency not to stick the knife in someone’s back–are we so bereft of courtesy and decency that we don’t understand it when someone DOES have a shred of it?
I think it’s because they expect managers and GMs to be just as opinionated as they are — and willing to opine whenever someone puts a microphone in their face.
We don’t expect the PR people for corporations to slag off their company. We shouldn’t expect the same from a GM and a manager.
I am disheartened and scared by Bavasi’s words that ”he has shown great patience in a bad situation”.
Would you like it if your boss, in public, said “Chris White just isn’t getting the job done - he’s not even trying very hard, and his team’s just given up on him. Really, there’s no point in even going on with Mr. White at this point, or taking him seriously.”
Bavasi (and don’t think I didn’t notice, you got it right today!) is just doing what any boss in a public situation does - being polite. What he says in private, nobody knows.
Another thing.
If three out of Hargrove’s last four teams did a face plant in August/September, I think you can make a case that the collapse has a great deal to do with Hargrove.
The flip side is that it makes it a lot harder to judge what Bavasi has done, as it makes it hard to tease out what was his and what was from the horrendous job Hargrove did. You might say that Bavasi was unable to assemble the overwhelming array of talent that Grover had in Cleveland–but NOBODY would be able to do that in the span of time available.
I wonder whether Stone, who I agree is the best of the writers’ bunch around here, secretly reads USSM, as opposed to “getting it” unassisted.
I agree that Bavasi should not trash his manager in the press, since that does no one any good. It’s not like flogging Hargrove will make him any better at bullpen management. So, along those lines, the next (courteous) thing out of Bavasi’s mouth should be something like this:
“Mike, thanks for the effort but, it just isn’t working out. Good luck in your next job.”
So what if we can’t get anything for Sexson in the offseason? Do we get rid of him for the sake of doing so?
No*. David*, no.
Isn’t this kind of beside the point? I could care less whether Bavasi is polite or is great at waxing smooth in his public statements. What I care about is his performance and substantive decisions. I read #9 as simply saying that it’s unbelievable Bavasi hasn’t moved Hargrove; he’s had many opportunites throughout this dismal year. Perception and symbols matter in public-facing organizations, and the perception, at least for this fan, is that even after a horrid 11 game losing streak nobody at the leadership level is willing to make a tough decision.
Or just sign a dozen Bloomquist clones to play on the days we face him.
The only quibble I have with that plan is that, you know, Bloomquist sucks.
#10, To ad to #12’s answer to your question about who has underachieved on the M’s this year.
Julio Mateo and Carl Everett. So the M’s have had Mateo, Everett, Piniero, Washburn, and to some extent, Meche underachieve. Now I’m not saying Bavasi isn’t responsible for signing some of those players but that does answer your question doesn’t it?
I wonder whether Stone, who I agree is the best of the writers’ bunch around here, secretly reads USSM, as opposed to “getting it” unassisted.
why secretly? he ‘got it’ before USSM was up and running.
re: Bavasi, I assume the last word (as far as moving Mike goes) is with the ownership group & Howard. We have no way of knowing whether Bavasi has tried more than once to get someone new in…
20, It’s OK to give other people credit for intelligence once in a while. Many people are capable of understanding things like : ‘Chris Snelling good’ and ‘Jaime Moyer trade good’ all on their own.
As regards the question what veterans have underperformed and what rookies appear overmatched during the recent loosing streak I suggest looking into the monthly splits for August. To drop a few names Ichiro, Lopez, Ibanez and Benouardo haven’t had good months. Sexson, Beltre and Johjima on the other hand have been fine.
My guess is that Bavasi was complaining mostly about players underacheiving during the losing streak, not the season as a whole.
I am really excited about Ichiro in CF. Best news I have heard in awhile. I think he is going to be re-energized by the move and we are going to see some unbelievable plays out there. Even better, it means Snelling in right and NO WFB.
Zip a dee doo da!
Has Meche been traded?
On the Seattle Mariners site his picture isn’t up anymore nad the pitcher is tbd?????
#20: Maybe this site secretly reads Stone’s columns…
It appears Baek will start today and I am assuming Grover is just pushing Meche back a day.
According to the Mariners site — “Meche was the scheduled starter for this game, but the Mariners decided until before gametime to commit to a pitcher for the series opener against the Yankees.”
Could be trade rumblings, could just be thoughts about pushing Meche back one day and starting Baek tonight.
As for veterans, Sexson’s play has picked up but he’s been replacement level (or below) all season. At quick glance, Ibanez hasn’t done much since the break. Pineiro, yuck!
It should be interesting to watch how Moyer fares tonight in Chicago. The Phils have set it up so Moyer pitches 11 times down the stretch, nine of those will be on the road. I guess they don’t want him pitching in that sand box in Philadelphia…although Chicago isn’t any better (unless the wind is blowing in).
#25 Mateo is was 4-8 with a 4 era the last 2 years that got signed to a questionable 2 year deal? Piniero was 13-22 the last 2 years with a 5 era?Washburn 19-16 with a 4 era and carl everett only a fool bought that fools gold.This guy all of us here knew was trouble and not real good but 4.5 million just went flush.#18 so we just allow him to keep losing and come up with spin doctor answers to try and cover it up?Sometimes in this world people need to get ripped weather its in the paper are not.My guess the reason he hasnt ripped hargrove because it was another one of his mistakes signings that he has to pay 2 million to next year to stay at home.Just my feeling but when does bavasi get held accountable everyone wants hargrove gone because he does everything in public how about the guy signing the players?
Uh, people?
Ichiro’s hitting .276 since the break with an OPS at 624.
I count that as “underachieving”, when your All-Star RF is doing a Willie Bloomquist impression…
Re: “We’ve said a lot of good things about Larry Stone on the blog the past few years. It’s columns like today’s that explain why. He’s very, very good at what he does, and we’re lucky to have him covering the Mariners.”
Right-o. He’s a little too good for Seattle; so enjoy him while he’s here. He’ll be gone soon.
Regular plaing time for Doyle?!? Hell yeah!
Grwat article, right on the mark Stoney!
24 - 50% of Bloomquist’s career HRs are off of Barry Zito. Wille owns him!
Speaking of local commentary…
Dave Cameron makes a PI appearance.
I also agree with Dave- there’s a lot to be hopeful about.
The piece is here, BTW.
I wonder whether Stone, who I agree is the best of the writers’ bunch around here, secretly reads USSM, as opposed to “getting it” unassisted.
Larry Stone got it long before USSM existed. We take no credit for his intelligence - he’d be a scholar of the game whether we were ever born or not.
However, it’s no big secret that pretty much every member of the local media reads the blog. Our little corner of the world isn’t quite so small anymore.
Could be trade rumblings, could just be thoughts about pushing Meche back one day and starting Baek tonight.
Baek tonight, Meche tentatively scheduled for tomorrow, and a big question mark for Thursday. Felix is probably getting skipped, so they could use Washburn on normal rest, but then they’d have to bring Felix back on Saturday, so they wouldn’t really be skipping his turn as much as just pushing him back a few days.
You may see Cruceta start Thursday. The decision hasn’t been made yet.
#10 and #35, although I agree with you in principle, would it be to much to ask that you try to use proper spelling and grammar AND check your facts before you post. In post #10 you state that Mr. Sexon is a career .247 hitter. Well, unless ESPN is wrong he is hitting .266 for his career as of yesterday. I admit, I am not the best English student but man, your post’s are really hard to read.
So wait, does that now make Felix the actual #1 starter (rather than #1 pitching in the #5/#3 slots)?
I’m unclear as to how this move will save him a start, tho.
If they use Felix on Saturday, his subsequent start would fall on Thursday the 31st, an off day. Besides, as long as they don’t use Pineiro as a reliever (probably depends on how much the Bullpen is taxed over the next days), they can pull him out of their hats for a start.
Will Meche performance against the Yankees be more closely watched by scouts than normal? Will an above average start create a market for Meche/
now this is what you want to hear with our pitching rotation (from Scott Miller):
“Thinking of taking in a New York Yankees game in the near future? If you do nothing else, for God’s sake, bring along a sleeping bag! And several bottles of water. And a book. And make sure your cell phone battery is fully charged. Because you’re going to be there awhile.
The Yankees, who finished their slaughter of Boston with a 2-1 tap dance on the Red Sox grave Monday, have taken their tried-and-true formula of grinding out at-bats and forcing opposing pitchers into high pitch counts and they’ve turbo-charged it this year. First they added Johnny Damon. Then Bobby Abreu. Their first four hitters — Damon, Derek Jeter, Abreu and Jason Giambi — are more patient than a mother of 12. This might be the statistic of the year: In Friday’s doubleheader, Damon and Abreu combined to see 98 pitches. Ninety-eight! Two guys!”
Hargrove is the number 1 manager on the hot seat according to FOX sports. He need to be fired now!!
check out my link
Arizona Fall League Rosters are out. The M’s are sending a better crop than usual, though everything is subject to change and usually does.
Eric O’Flaherty, Stephen Kahn, and Craig James are the pitchers, with Matt Tuiasasopo, Michael Garciaparra, and Mike Wilson as the hitters. Let’s hope Tui can actually hit the ball in the AFL. He needs something to forget the nightmare that has been his time in San Antonio.
Regarding the last of the 3 Larry Stone quote blocks, I hope the Mariners brain trust realizes after the past 3 years’ futility, they will have to offer quite an in-cent-$ive for Ichiro to stay, and Daisuke Matsuzaka to sign with this franchise. Talk, and promises, is cheap. They may actually be forced to DO something, like the obvious — get rid of the field manager.
As for the Yankees and the upcoming series, Meche will wilt like an underwatered lily after a few innings of their patient ABs. Joy, joy… This is one series I hope a brawl breaks out. Anything to relieve the tedium.
I wonder when the first Japanese Manager will come to the bigs.
I wonder when the first Japanese Manager will come to the bigs.
Does Bobby Valentine count?
#51– oooh ooooh oooh, can someone tackle Alex?! He always gets so entertainingly pissy when something hurts*
Larue in the TNT and Danny O’Neil in the Times both have similar columns today.
*disclaimer — I used to laugh at his wussiness when he was an M, too. If Alex wants to come back, I’ll take him, wussiness and all.
Dave, I’m not all that familiar with the M’s philosophy on the AFL. Are these prospects you mentioned in #50 farther along in there development then the players the M’s have sent in the past?
Dave, I know that the AFL is essentially meaningless, but is there a reason the M’s are not sending Clement to get in some extra work after he missed half the season due to injuries? Or do the M’s want to rest him as part of his recovery?
I’ve been a fan of Larry Stone for quite some time, but this just might be his best yet (which is saying something).
I do have to wonder, though, as a former subscriber to the Vancouver Sun, why Vancouver’s sportswriters (and newspapers in general) run rings around Seattle’s. You’d think Seattle could compete a little better than that.
RE: my #51: (Meche (not) pitching tonight) My bad. I should have finished reading the thread before posting. It’s actually a GOOD thing if they put Baek in there. Yankee fan gossip sez the Yanks have a lot of trouble adjusting to pitchers they’ve never seen before (i.e., their scouts haven’t examined inside and out).
RE: 14. The team was in the hole but in [the] beginning of August they were in the thick of things and [if] not for this 11 game slide, they would still be in the hunt. The entire team except for one or two players has collapsed and there is only one person I can see as responsible.
Indeed, it’s a rare baseball player who won’t lose his focus if he perceives his manager is not managing scoring opportunities and player skills adequately.
RE: Beniitec’s link in #13: I also linked to the article entitled “Moyer Reflects on M’s, Seattle”. Just as I expected, he’ll be back — just not in an M’s uniform.
And I think he was bending over backward in diplomacy when he said when asked his opinion on why the Mariners have struggled this season:
They aren’t ALL young and inexperienced. The youngsters should be learning, especially how to “leave it all on the field”, from the veterans, but they ALL need direction from the field manager.
#49 It’s seems as if even the national media is getting it, why don’t the higher ups? He was even able to site the fact that Monday was an off-day and perfect situation to place Rohn in an interim situation before the homestand, for a season end evaluation.
It just gets frustrating when everyone andtheir grandma cansee the obvious and yet nothing is done to rectify a wrong.
Dave, I’m not all that familiar with the M’s philosophy on the AFL. Are these prospects you mentioned in #50 farther along in there development then the players the M’s have sent in the past?
The last few years, the M’s have joined in the crowd of most organizations and sent organizational roster filler pitchers to keep the workloads down on pitchers with actual futures. O’Flaherty and Kahn are two of the better pitching prospects the M’s have sent in a few years.
Dave, I know that the AFL is essentially meaningless, but is there a reason the M’s are not sending Clement to get in some extra work after he missed half the season due to injuries? Or do the M’s want to rest him as part of his recovery?
There could be a variety of reasons. Perhaps they wanted to send Clement, but other teams wanted to send their catchers as well? Perhaps they felt he needed the time off. Perhaps he’s going to play in another Winter League?
I’m not sure what the reason is, but I’m pretty sure they have one.
I’d bet it has to do with his knee. I had a meniscus surgery in Feburary and my knee still hurts like a sommbitch.
Judging from my experience I’d bet they want to give his knees a rest and let him rehab more, but that’s just speculation.
I know the M’s supposedly have a “catching guru” (I can’t remember his name, but he was working with Olivo closely, which may make him ineligible for “guru” status”).
Maybe they want to work with Clement on his defense one-on-one in the off-season, while still being able to monitor his knee closely. From what I understand, his bat isn’t a concern.
Thanks Dave.
62: Roger Hansen, I believe.
Thingray, you are thinking of Roger Hansen, and I think he has worked with Clement already.
Sexson is currently 25th out of 30 MLB first basemen with more than 250 PA in VORP. That’s drastic underperformance.
Beltre is 22nd out of 31 MLB third basemen ditto. That’s underperformance.
Carl Everett has been beat to death, and is gone, but he fits this category (worst DH in the league by a wide margin).
Ichiro is still as high as third among a weak crop of RF, but he’s been dropping off quite a bit for a while now — well under .800 OPS from this position is sad.
Pitchers: Piniero, Meche, Moyer: underperforming. Washburn, middling. Those are underperforming veterans. I’d listen to offers on all of them. Bring on the future!
Yeah, because you always get great value from veterans with big contracts who are underperforming. I mean, who wouldn’t want a .225 hitting first baseman who is owed something like $30 million over the next two years? I’m sure teams are lining up to trade away their best players for that!
Who said anything about “their best players”?
Roger Hansen. That was exactly who I was thinking of. Thank you!
Dave, do you think that this year is an anomaly for Sexson, or what we can expect out of him for the next two years? Beltre seems to have settled in at about what I figured we would get when we signed him. I don’t think any of us really expected him to put up the numbers he did in his contract year.
Steve T, not all underperforming is the same. Some of these players can be expected to put up better numbers in the future (Ichiro, Beltre, Sexson) and some cannot (Pineiro, Meche, Moyer). That makes a big difference in how willing you are to dump them.
scheduling info– Larry Stone should be on KJR around 2:05, and for what it’s worth, in their all-time web gems series, ESPN gets around to the Mariners in a week, Aug. 30th.
Any guesses as to what plays will be featured? I would have to guess that Buhner going over the wall in Baltimore would be on there, as well as Griffey’s catch where he broke his wrist.
Lenny Randle blowing a ball foul up the 3rd base line…. CLASSIC!
#71 - Ichiro gunning down Terrance Long at third from deep right field in 2001 with an absolute laser throw has to be on there.
It is a classic, but would you call it a “web gem”? No glove was used!
It’s a defensive play - aka: web gem.
The Lenny Randle play, not Ichiro’s throw (which introduced him to the big leagues IMO).
Yeah, your right, how about Omar’s one handed grab and throw to finish Bosiooooooooo’s No no!
Maybe the Mike Cameron catch where Randy Winn is yelling for him to “get back!”.
So who has been the worse Mariner: The WFB aka Ignitor or The Rule 5 Guy aka Luis Ugeuto??
#71 - Griffey steals Jesse Barfield’s 200th HR in 1990
Vizquel putout at end of Bosio no-no 1993(?)
So who has been the worse Mariner: The WFB aka Ignitor or The Rule 5 Guy aka Luis Ugeuto??
WFB is a bench utility scrub and would be on any other team in baseball not named “Yankees.”
Ugueto should never have been on a 25-man roster in his career.
I agree DW..just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were. Ugueto seriously handicapped Lou’s bench in 2002.
Just put three griffey highlights in there, say the catch where he broke his wrist, the one in detroit… there’s probably another one that stands out, but those two for sure. The Omar play was pretty sweet, although I’m sure they could find a better play from him in a less important situation. I hope they don’t do Buhner’s catch though, it wasn’t that impressive imo, just a product of a short wall.
It will be interesting to see what they pick. I can think of dozens that could qualify. We’ve been pretty lucky to have some great defenders play for the M’s when you think about it.
There was a Bret Boone play in late 2002 or 2003 against the Rangers..I think the game that the lights went out..not sure I’m correct or not.
bleagh. John Sterling is up clogging air-time before the Hot Stone League.
Maybe they could sort of cheat, and just do one slot for like four or five of Griffey’s catches
Seriously, someone needs to put them all together on youtube or something, it was so fun watching him out there
Oh I mean the D-Rays:
“Pineiro fell behind by two runs in the second inning and by three in the third. It might have been worse if not for a remarkable play by Boone. With a runner on first base, two outs and the Devil Rays already leading by three runs, Baldelli hit a hard grounder past the pitcher’s mound. Boone sprinted to his right, made a diving stop of the ball and somehow did a no-look, backhanded flip to Rey Sanchez for the inning-ending forceout.”
I lost my KJR feed on the internet and I need to pick my 7 month old daughter up from daycare.
#88 - I remember that play! One of the best plays I’ve seen by a second baseman. I sometimes forget what a good fielder Boone was before his decline.
On the Bloomquist/Ugueto question, it depends on how you look at it. Clearly Bloomquist is a better player than Ugueto, but on the other hand he has hurt the M’s a lot more by being used more. Basically Ugueto was a designated pinch-runner in 2002 (he only got 23 ABs all season, in 63 games, most of those in blow outs). So he wasted a bench spot for the M’s, especially since they already had a designated pinch-runner in Gipson. Bloomquist may actually deserve a bench spot, but he has wasted a whole lot of at-bats that he shouldn’t have had.
I bet the Ichiro wall climb thing will make it on the web gems. You know the one I mean.
The hanging/twisting catch at the wall that they use on the all the promos?
wow. anyone else listening to stone on kjr? groz cites the article stone wrote and doesn’t even realize that stone wrote it!
Funny thing is; that catch was as dramatic as it was because Ichiro climbed up the wall early, the ball then twisted back behind him. Had he simply retreated to the wall and jumped it would have been an easy play. It was actually misplayed.
#95 - AMEN! I’m not the only person who noticed that! I actually thought Raul’s catch earlier this year where he ran full speed up the wall and brought one back was a better play.
Groz has been on vacation….
He also thinks Moyer’s trade is a puzzling deal at a puzzling time– a couple of guys out of A-Ball didn’t get you anything again. Larry does not. (Groz seems to think there was more of a market for Moyer than there was, and that his value would be higher– he mentioned waiting to see what happens with the Mets & Boston … I believe it has already been said that Boston called and then decided they weren’t interested after all) Groz said, if that was all the value you would get, then why even bother to deal him?
Larry was more surprised what an emotional effect it has had on fans, and he also thinks Groz is discounting the prospects. The article mentioned in #94 was referenced, and Groz wondered if Bill was really distancing himself from the manager as his quotes might indicate? Larry says Bill isn’t throwing anyone under the bus, he is just really frustrated and really hates to talk about it — Larry sees it more as protecting the manager, and putting it on the players….
Ichiro climbing the wall is an obvious pick. I alCameron drifting left and then suddenly diving to his right for that knuckling liner.
I wish I could get ESPN. Stupid Canadian government.
Hey, nice edit, Evan.
Lenny Randle’s blowing on the ball symbolizes so much about the history of the franchise, at least the first fifteen and last three years of it. It’s an all-time contribution to baseball lore along with another from that era: the Mendoza Line.
You’re right, but I don’t think either one of those counts as a “web gem”.
I’m sure Griffey’s robbery of Barfield will be there, in part because it allowed the eastern media to “validate” his star. What a play. Ichiro’s gundown of Long has to be under consideration as well.
It was actually misplayed.
I don’t think it was misplayed. I think he played it wisely - by jumping as high as he did - just in case the ball was hit higher.
See, the judgment (about how high to go up the wall) had to be made a second or two before he jumped. If the ball was higher than he judged it to be, then he would have made the play.
He actually gave himself a cushion in case.
In any case, I had a great father-son moment. At the game, my dad was sitting next to me. We were both really impressed by that catch. He turns to me and says: “I saw Clemente for years and Clemente could not have made that catch.” That bond that baseball provides is something special to me.
hey! Roberto could do anything he wanted.
WTH~! No Ibanez catch can be as good as any Ichiro catch. Ichiro’s fundamentals - break, route, positioning, thinking ahead - are so good, he makes many hard catches look routine.
His fundamentals are as good as anybody - back to Van Slyke, Brett Butler, Cesar Geronimo, Van Slyke. We’re looking at the best since Clemente, IMO. Let’s not take that for granted.
I was at that game too — I turned to my girlfriend and said: “Hey, he misplayed that!”
A little different take on an unusual moment. I just thought climbing the wall was altogether unnecessary. It’s all about perspective I guess. In any event, your “moment” was nicer than mine.
105 — what about Van Slyke?
If you judge the ball correctly, you don’t have to leave a “cushion” to catch it. He just timed his jump incorrectly.
It was a great athletic play, but he didn’t even need to climb the wall,IMO.
On the other hand, I’ve watched WFB climb the wall in right center trying to reach a ball in left center, so I’m not complaining!
Wrong! Trading Moyer may have been the sensible thing to do, but it wasn’t the “right” thing to do. It’s like trading Grandpa for a new stove. Just distasteful and classless, and makes me not like the Mariners very much.
And I’m not trying to compare Raul to Ichiro in ANY way. But IMO the hanging/twisting catch by Ichiro was a great recovery, and not a web gem.
#109 - trading Moyer would be like trading Grandpa’s antique stove for a new stove. Let’s compare apples to apples at least.
Wrong! Trading Moyer may have been the sensible thing to do, but it wasn’t the “right” thing to do.
I prefer moves dictated by the head, not the heart.
-110
I would love to have heard what was going through Ichiro’s head as the ball arced back behind him:
“Oooooooo No! If I just twist back a little bit moreeeee….Got it! Whew! That would have looked terrible!”
107 - Oops. Only one Van Slyke. He was very good.
108 - fair enough. I’m probably his biggest sycophant so I could be wrong.
It just struck me that one measure of Ichiro’s greatness is what we - M’s fans generally - expect from him. Many ask for more power, some say he should dive headfirst for balls, others complain that he doesn’t steal enough. What I think these expectations mean is that we have, in our minds, this notion that he can do almost anything.
Does anyone really complain that this or that player needs to have complete mastery of a wide skill set like we ask of Ichiro? I think what Joe and Jane Fan want, above the results Ichiro produces, above what he expects from himself, is perfection.
Wrong! Trading Moyer may have been the sensible thing to do, but it wasn’t the “right” thing to do. It’s like trading Grandpa for a new stove. Just distasteful and classless, and makes me not like the Mariners very much.
By far, the funniest thing I’ve read all week. I {heart} logical fallacies.
Wrong! Trading Moyer may have been the sensible thing to do, but it wasn’t the “right” thing to do. It’s like trading Grandpa for a new stove. Just distasteful and classless, and makes me not like the Mariners very much.
ok. so, getting a much-admired player & man into a situation where he might finally have a rare chance for postseason play again, in what might be his last year of ball, is “distasteful and classless”?
#114 - I’ll agree with you on that. I think the average fan thinks Ichiro can hit .400, steal 60 bases, and hit 35 home runs.
The extraordinary can almost become routine and expected with some players. Cameron and Griffey were that way in center, Omar and Yuni at SS, Olerud at 1st, etc..
I’m just having a little fun strong silence — that catch does look great as a two second snippet on tv, which is about all anyone has seen.
As far as what I’d like from Ichiro that he doesn’t bring to the table — power and walks would be a good start. Really, anything besides a bunch of singles. But that’s just me.
All I ask of Ichiro is he stick it out in Center Field. But my fear is Willie will be given a clean bill of health for tonight and will be manning centerfield once again.
Ichiro staying in CF would be the best news I’ve heard in a long time, if it actually happens.
If it does, is Adam Jones then sent back to Tacoma?
Ichiro plays center tonight and probably for the rest of the year. Jones is going back to Tacoma tomorrow - TJ Bohn will be with the team shortly.
Seth, what is the greater obligation a baseball team has to the community: to win, to entertain, or to sign and retain wholesome and admirable players?
Thank you Dave! You just made my day!
Tacoma has what…a week left? Is Jones back up in September?
Great news Dave!
I think we’ll see Ichiro be human once and again. Again, keep the expectations reasonable. Yet, after 20 games or so, he’ll be roaming CF for a long time. It’s like the guy Gehrig replaced….what’s his name? (hint: his last name is a homonym for a Dickens character.)
You and legions of critics, especially in the stat community.
It’s just a bunch of singles, but it’s a bigger bunch of singles than anyone’s ever done before, and it makes him a very valuable player — a valuable player of such a different kind that a lot of smart people can’t even see it. Sure, it would be even better if he had walks and power, but that’s not who he is, and who he is ought to be plenty good enough for us.
Dave,
What should we see from Bohn? What is reasonable in terms of playing time and plate ability?
Is Tacoma in the PCL playoff hunt?
Bohn is a good defensive player and he can run the bases. He has gap power and can hit a fastball. That’s about it, though. He’s a 25th man in the majors.
Tacoma is 5 games back, so no chance for the playoffs I’m guessing.
Still, any time Jones gets in AAA seems like a good idea to me.
a valuable player of such a different kind…
Good point, scraps. For me, he’s like one of those traveling museums because I feel like I’m watching a player from the Dead Ball era.
I rarely watch Sportscenter anymore as I can’t stand the hosts, but the few times I’ve seen the Web Gems segment, it always seems that a bunch of the plays are misplayed balls that the player managed to get to just in time. I think that’s the unofficial definition of a web gem.
At no point did I say Ichiro wasn’t valuable. Just that he has no power and seems averse to leaving the bat on his shoulder. I was responding to what I’d like him to do that he doesn’t do now.
Of the AL players with enough plate appearances to qualify; Ichiro ranks 72nd out of 77 in Isolated Power, and 57th out of 77 in BB %. Ick.
If you go to baseball reference (dot) com you’ll see that most of Ichiro’s comps are indeed from the deadball era. To some extent you *are* watching a player from the deadball era.
Complaining about Ichiro’s walk and power rates is the same thing as complaining about Roy Halladay’s strikeout rates - for most players, it’s a valid criticism, but when a guy does other things so much better than everyone else, it becomes null and void.
Walks and extra base hits aren’t valuable in themselves - they’re tools to scoring runs. Runs are what matter. And Ichiro, through his massive hoard of singles, ability to whack the ball in Safeco Field, and his terrific defense, creates and saves a lot of runs.
He just does it differently than everyone else. Just like Roy Halladay does it differently than Johan Santana.
Yeah, ESPN web gems/plays of the week/etc. are really stupid for the most part. Its all just plays where the player dived for the ball, regardless of whether he took a good route to it, got there quickly, actually needed to dive, etc. And they ignore a whole lot of plays that really are impressive but are done much more smoothly. ESPN really dumbs down the sport. So, hurray for Canada, I say.
I know. My point was, why itch about what he doesn’t do well? Especially when it’s probably a side-effect of what he does do well, and if he improved in walks and power it might well reduce him to a lesser player by suppressing possibly his greatest strength: his unparalleled ability to react and put the ball in play.
I hadn’t seen Dave’s reply when I replied; I don’t mean to drive the point into the ground.
Ichiro would have drove it past the shortstop. ;
Dude who Lou Gehrig replaced? Wasn’t it Wally Pipp?
Seth wrote:
We don’t know that Jamie didn’t ask to be traded, and if so, that is exactly what a tasteful and classy organization would do — accommodate a player who has given as much as Moyer has an opportunity he wants.
I think it is more than possible that the Mariners either told Jamie he wasn’t in their plans next year, or wouldn’t commit, and he was looking for that. Coupled with a frustrating season, that would be enough to want to get out of Dodge. Itis also possible (though I think less likely) that Jamie could come back next year, ala Kenny Rogers a few years back. Assuming the truth of one scenario (the Mariners screwed Moyer for a couple of meaningless A-ball semi-prospects) — and an unlikely and mostly inaccurate scenario at that — over other plausible scenarios is kind of pointless.
I’d like to see some results someday.
141- From what I understand, Moyer had to sign an extension as part of the deal of the trade. So He’ll be a Philly at least to the end of next year.
It’s about time they got Jones some playing time. Here’s hoping his confidence isn’t completely destroyed.
143-It’s a mutual option.
Moyer signed a mutual option contract which means he can do whatever he wants. Stay with Philly OR become a free agent. Philly can bag out of it also. What the agreement does is lock both sides in on $$ if Moyer wants to stay with Philly and Philly wants him back.
#143– if Philly wants him too.
and it is kind of hard to screw someone by trading him, if you can’t trade him without getting his permission
Seth, this excerpt from the Moyer article in the PI tells you how Bavasi approached Moyer about the deal. Seems a fairly classy way to do it to me.
“Mariners fans won’t soon forget Moyer, 43, who won a franchise-record 145 games after arriving from Boston in 1996. But with free agency looming and the Mariners’ season sunk, the left-hander was receptive when Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi came to him Friday with a message: Phillies GM Pat Gillick wanted to talk trade, and if Moyer was interested, Bavasi would put them in touch.
”
Link Moyer Article
Ahh I only knew that he had to sign one, didn’t know the terms.
So far as I can tell, the complaints about the Moyer trade aren’t really about it being unfair to Moyer; they’re about it being unfair to the fans. There are people who’ve never stopped criticising Moyer, after all, for refusing the trade to Houston last year: as though he were obliged to do whatever was best for the team including being traded away from the team.
I’m afraid that public anger about this trade will just confirm whatever part of the front office feels that what’s most important is fielding a fan-friendly product.
130: yeah, 5 games back, but we play Salt Lake (the division leader) for 4 games next week. So if we can stay close or pick up some ground, our destiny could be in our own hands. (and at this point, I’m wondering whether I’ll recognize any players on the roster by then).
Re: Web Gems
Anyone up for the Stan Javier catch in RF (2001?) where he leaped over the wall, the ball came squirting out of the glove and he caught it while falling to the warning track? I wouldn’t mind seeing that play again.