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	<title>Comments on: Game 132, Angels at Mariners</title>
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	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: BelaXadux</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-8/#comment-141207</link>
		<dc:creator>BelaXadux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141207</guid>
		<description>JAS, I&#039;m not implying that Doyle&#039;s batspeed is or will suffer from what he&#039;s doing if he&#039;s not putting weight down into the back leg.  I think that if he is keeping the weight off the back, left leg, it will be hard for him to _fully torque_ his hips, although I didn&#039;t say it that way in the earlier post.  Doyle does have good rotation, but he&#039;s generating a lot of that with his arms, rather like metz123 said.  Yes, Doyle&#039;s stance is very centered and focused on rotation.  Watch some of those other hitters when they really torque down and under that ball to pull it; see how much stress they put on the back leg, and how they have to rotate the knee on the back leg to do it:  this is what Doyle _isn&#039;t_ doing, as I see it, and probably a good thing that he&#039;s not.  But it&#039;s also why I wonder if he&#039;s going to be able to get under low pitches, especially inside, and drive them with authority.  Pitches up, yes; pitches down or away, I&#039;m not so sure.  

All that said though, it&#039;s clear that Doyle is a very advanced hitter, with highly consistent mechanics at the plate, who know exactly what he wants to do, and how.  He exudes confidence, and whether it&#039;s an Oz attitude or more him he clearly thinks it&#039;s the pitcher who&#039;s in trouble when Doyle has a bat in his hands---and he&#039;s right.  

Your description of Raul seem dead on.  He definitely &#039;sits on the back leg and swings up,&#039; really a very different approach than Doyle, or more accurately a more extreme version of hip rotation.  The interesting thing about Ibanez with that swing is how much contact he makes with that swing.  He seldom swings through a pitch, especially on the inside of the plate; he&#039;s very disciplined with it.  Doyle making good contact doesn&#039;t surprise me, but Raul making such good contact with a more extreme rotation is just hard work and talent coming together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JAS, I&#8217;m not implying that Doyle&#8217;s batspeed is or will suffer from what he&#8217;s doing if he&#8217;s not putting weight down into the back leg.  I think that if he is keeping the weight off the back, left leg, it will be hard for him to _fully torque_ his hips, although I didn&#8217;t say it that way in the earlier post.  Doyle does have good rotation, but he&#8217;s generating a lot of that with his arms, rather like metz123 said.  Yes, Doyle&#8217;s stance is very centered and focused on rotation.  Watch some of those other hitters when they really torque down and under that ball to pull it; see how much stress they put on the back leg, and how they have to rotate the knee on the back leg to do it:  this is what Doyle _isn&#8217;t_ doing, as I see it, and probably a good thing that he&#8217;s not.  But it&#8217;s also why I wonder if he&#8217;s going to be able to get under low pitches, especially inside, and drive them with authority.  Pitches up, yes; pitches down or away, I&#8217;m not so sure.  </p>
<p>All that said though, it&#8217;s clear that Doyle is a very advanced hitter, with highly consistent mechanics at the plate, who know exactly what he wants to do, and how.  He exudes confidence, and whether it&#8217;s an Oz attitude or more him he clearly thinks it&#8217;s the pitcher who&#8217;s in trouble when Doyle has a bat in his hands&#8212;and he&#8217;s right.  </p>
<p>Your description of Raul seem dead on.  He definitely &#8217;sits on the back leg and swings up,&#8217; really a very different approach than Doyle, or more accurately a more extreme version of hip rotation.  The interesting thing about Ibanez with that swing is how much contact he makes with that swing.  He seldom swings through a pitch, especially on the inside of the plate; he&#8217;s very disciplined with it.  Doyle making good contact doesn&#8217;t surprise me, but Raul making such good contact with a more extreme rotation is just hard work and talent coming together.</p>
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		<title>By: BelaXadux</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-8/#comment-141180</link>
		<dc:creator>BelaXadux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141180</guid>
		<description>Dave in Stanford-ville, if you say so.  I&#039;m pretty sure it was Heaverlo, but if we both saw a young Hal Baines for the White Sox hit it we must be talking about the same game.  The ball did go down the first base line.  I was on that side for once because my Dad likes to sit there.  Ugly incident, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave in Stanford-ville, if you say so.  I&#8217;m pretty sure it was Heaverlo, but if we both saw a young Hal Baines for the White Sox hit it we must be talking about the same game.  The ball did go down the first base line.  I was on that side for once because my Dad likes to sit there.  Ugly incident, though.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-8/#comment-141054</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141054</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;At the point of impact, you would be amazed at how similar most good hitters are.&lt;/i&gt;

In that respect, compare the picture of Doyle&#039;s swing (linked above) with this one of &lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=f3f30d0044714efd920aeb5a9d657fd6.red_sox_mariners_baseball_wajf106&amp;prov=ap&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ibanez hitting his grand slam&lt;/a&gt;  The Ibanez one is obviously taken slightly earlier in the swing (can&#039;t see the ball) but in terms of stance they look pretty darn similar to me.  Hip rotation makes sense; and if Doyle&#039;s leg can take running in the outfield I would think it&#039;s up to whatever&#039;s necessary to swing the bat with power.  Edgar could barely walk when he tore that ACL or whatever it was and he was still hitting with authority (I remember thinking he was clearly planing to hit HRs so that he didn&#039;t have to worry about running on the basepaths).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>At the point of impact, you would be amazed at how similar most good hitters are.</i></p>
<p>In that respect, compare the picture of Doyle&#8217;s swing (linked above) with this one of <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=f3f30d0044714efd920aeb5a9d657fd6.red_sox_mariners_baseball_wajf106&amp;prov=ap" rel="nofollow">Ibanez hitting his grand slam</a>  The Ibanez one is obviously taken slightly earlier in the swing (can&#8217;t see the ball) but in terms of stance they look pretty darn similar to me.  Hip rotation makes sense; and if Doyle&#8217;s leg can take running in the outfield I would think it&#8217;s up to whatever&#8217;s necessary to swing the bat with power.  Edgar could barely walk when he tore that ACL or whatever it was and he was still hitting with authority (I remember thinking he was clearly planing to hit HRs so that he didn&#8217;t have to worry about running on the basepaths).</p>
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		<title>By: Mere Tantalisers</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-8/#comment-141053</link>
		<dc:creator>Mere Tantalisers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141053</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the clarifications fellas. I never played ball in any formal capacity and am completely mystified by most of the commentary on players&#039; techniques, mostly because every &#039;event&#039; (ie swing) is so fast that unless one knows exactly what to look at, they look more or less the same. So yeah, thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarifications fellas. I never played ball in any formal capacity and am completely mystified by most of the commentary on players&#8217; techniques, mostly because every &#8216;event&#8217; (ie swing) is so fast that unless one knows exactly what to look at, they look more or less the same. So yeah, thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141040</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141040</guid>
		<description>Kirby Arnold mentions Swift:

&quot;The scene reminded longtime Mariners fans of a similar scare 16 seasons ago when pitcher Bill Swift was struck on the forehead by a line drive by the Minnesota Twins&#039; Gary Gaetti in the Kingdome. Swift spent a night in the hospital for tests and was released, then pitched six days later.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirby Arnold mentions Swift:</p>
<p>&#8220;The scene reminded longtime Mariners fans of a similar scare 16 seasons ago when pitcher Bill Swift was struck on the forehead by a line drive by the Minnesota Twins&#8217; Gary Gaetti in the Kingdome. Swift spent a night in the hospital for tests and was released, then pitched six days later.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141031</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141031</guid>
		<description>ok, someone needs to send Hickey the catcher ERA discussion, as today he brings the &lt;a href=&quot;http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/283125_mbok30.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;subject&lt;/a&gt; up again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, someone needs to send Hickey the catcher ERA discussion, as today he brings the <a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/283125_mbok30.html" rel="nofollow">subject</a> up again&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141030</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141030</guid>
		<description>I know Bagwell, at least, would even step backwards during his swing, again as a timing thing.  If most of a pitcher&#039;s velocity and a boxer&#039;s force comes from hip rotation, it makes sense a hitter&#039;s power would stem from the same source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know Bagwell, at least, would even step backwards during his swing, again as a timing thing.  If most of a pitcher&#8217;s velocity and a boxer&#8217;s force comes from hip rotation, it makes sense a hitter&#8217;s power would stem from the same source.</p>
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		<title>By: JAS</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141029</link>
		<dc:creator>JAS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141029</guid>
		<description>Weight shift in hitting is done only at the beginning of the swing, and only by some players.  Weight shift has no bearing on bat speed other than initial acceleration of the hands.  Weight shift, as universally used in MLB, is strictly a timing mechanism.  

What Bela thinks Raul is doing is actually defined as &quot;sitting&quot; on the back leg.  The axis of rotation goes straight down from the head through the back upper leg which is pointed straight at the ground.  The Ted Williams school of hitting says that the axis should actually lean back a little bit for more power, but biomechanical experiments have demonstrated this to be misleading.  Leaning back does not generate more power, but may help some players &quot;clear the hips&quot; so that rotational forces can apply torque to the bat.

Doyle is a rotational hitter; he just stays more balanced during the swing.  NO hitter uses legs to generate bat speed.  Bat speed is SOLELY a function of torso rotation accelerating the bat simultaneously with the arms and hands.

If you really watch Doyle swing - he slots his back elbow and keeps his hands &quot;inside&quot; the ball.  At the point of impact, you would be amazed at how similar most good hitters are.  

Some camps, notably Peavy&#039;s, teach top hand release.  Others, such as Mankin and Epstein, teach the &quot;sit on back leg&quot; and swing &quot;up&quot;.   They ALL teach rotational mechanics. Doyle is a rotational hitter.  His uppercut is actually a good thing, allowing the bat to stay in the plane of the pitch longer than those with a level swing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weight shift in hitting is done only at the beginning of the swing, and only by some players.  Weight shift has no bearing on bat speed other than initial acceleration of the hands.  Weight shift, as universally used in MLB, is strictly a timing mechanism.  </p>
<p>What Bela thinks Raul is doing is actually defined as &#8220;sitting&#8221; on the back leg.  The axis of rotation goes straight down from the head through the back upper leg which is pointed straight at the ground.  The Ted Williams school of hitting says that the axis should actually lean back a little bit for more power, but biomechanical experiments have demonstrated this to be misleading.  Leaning back does not generate more power, but may help some players &#8220;clear the hips&#8221; so that rotational forces can apply torque to the bat.</p>
<p>Doyle is a rotational hitter; he just stays more balanced during the swing.  NO hitter uses legs to generate bat speed.  Bat speed is SOLELY a function of torso rotation accelerating the bat simultaneously with the arms and hands.</p>
<p>If you really watch Doyle swing &#8211; he slots his back elbow and keeps his hands &#8220;inside&#8221; the ball.  At the point of impact, you would be amazed at how similar most good hitters are.  </p>
<p>Some camps, notably Peavy&#8217;s, teach top hand release.  Others, such as Mankin and Epstein, teach the &#8220;sit on back leg&#8221; and swing &#8220;up&#8221;.   They ALL teach rotational mechanics. Doyle is a rotational hitter.  His uppercut is actually a good thing, allowing the bat to stay in the plane of the pitch longer than those with a level swing.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141028</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141028</guid>
		<description>BTW for all you Doylephiles out there, his &lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6937/photos&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Yahoo Gallery&lt;/a&gt;  is growing (pretty soon all the pictures will actually be of him).  So yeah, he &lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=getty-57210061og015_redsox_marnrs_8_15_40_pm&amp;prov=getty&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;doesn&#039;t use his back leg&lt;/a&gt; -- at least not yet -- but that&#039;s not always necessary &lt;a href=&quot;http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=aca8d55ff67a4d7eb4242d358fc3b999.mariners_angels_baseball_ans108&amp;prov=ap&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;to  defeat&lt;/a&gt; an opposing pitcher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW for all you Doylephiles out there, his <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6937/photos" rel="nofollow">Yahoo Gallery</a>  is growing (pretty soon all the pictures will actually be of him).  So yeah, he <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=getty-57210061og015_redsox_marnrs_8_15_40_pm&amp;prov=getty" rel="nofollow">doesn&#8217;t use his back leg</a> &#8212; at least not yet &#8212; but that&#8217;s not always necessary <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=aca8d55ff67a4d7eb4242d358fc3b999.mariners_angels_baseball_ans108&amp;prov=ap" rel="nofollow">to  defeat</a> an opposing pitcher.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/comment-page-7/#comment-141027</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/game-132-angels-at-mariners/#comment-141027</guid>
		<description>About Doyle, the one thing that really impresses me (aside from his quick hands, and has anybody noticed how big is forearms are?) is how good his eye is, particularly on inside pitches.  A lot of batters will dance out of the way if a pitch comes inside, even though it&#039;s obvious (at least in retrospect) it wasn&#039;t going to hit them.  I&#039;ve never seen Doyle do that.  A couple of times he&#039;s almost casually lifted his arms to let the ball go underneath, sometimes closer than his elbows.  But he &lt;i&gt;knows&lt;/i&gt; those balls aren&#039;t going to hit him.  He either has incredible faith in his eyeballs, or the biggest balls on the field during his at bats aren&#039;t the ones getting tossed at the catcher.  You would kind of expect a guy with his injury history to be at least a little gunshy, but he&#039;s absolutely unfazed by those close pitches (and he&#039;s never tempted to swing at them either).  Of course we have yet to see someone throw him a pitch that would actually HBP him, so maybe he&#039;s just a tough aussie mofo who is willing to get on base by any means necessary, but to me it really looks like he knows exactly where those pitches are going and is completely unintimidatable.

Oh, and get well soon Raffie (but not soon enough for Hargrove to further abuse you).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About Doyle, the one thing that really impresses me (aside from his quick hands, and has anybody noticed how big is forearms are?) is how good his eye is, particularly on inside pitches.  A lot of batters will dance out of the way if a pitch comes inside, even though it&#8217;s obvious (at least in retrospect) it wasn&#8217;t going to hit them.  I&#8217;ve never seen Doyle do that.  A couple of times he&#8217;s almost casually lifted his arms to let the ball go underneath, sometimes closer than his elbows.  But he <i>knows</i> those balls aren&#8217;t going to hit him.  He either has incredible faith in his eyeballs, or the biggest balls on the field during his at bats aren&#8217;t the ones getting tossed at the catcher.  You would kind of expect a guy with his injury history to be at least a little gunshy, but he&#8217;s absolutely unfazed by those close pitches (and he&#8217;s never tempted to swing at them either).  Of course we have yet to see someone throw him a pitch that would actually HBP him, so maybe he&#8217;s just a tough aussie mofo who is willing to get on base by any means necessary, but to me it really looks like he knows exactly where those pitches are going and is completely unintimidatable.</p>
<p>Oh, and get well soon Raffie (but not soon enough for Hargrove to further abuse you).</p>
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