Shakeup
Dave · September 13, 2006 at 5:42 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Dan Rohn and Ron Hassey have left the team, effective immediately.
These aren’t the first firings, and they won’t be the last. Expect a fairly significant purge of the coaching staff throughout the organization.
#142 If you go by winning percentage, the all-time worst was Marty Martinez, whose winning percentage was .000. I actually don’t think Darrell Johnson was the 2nd worst all-time Mariner manager, even if the winning percentage doesn’t support my claim. I’d replace him with Del Crandell, and most likely re-swizzle the list a bit. Its hard to see how any manager for a newly constituted MLB club can do well.
Um, going from “below .500 but not terrible†to “contending for your division†just isn’t that hard- so why set the goal for 2007 so low? With the Mariners alone, it’s happened twice in recent memory: 1995 and 2000. I could come up with a bunch of other examples without really working very hard.
And ya know what the funny part is? Both of those years, Chuck Armstong was in Mariner management… and in 2000, Howard Lincoln was the CEO. In fact, both of them presided over the longest run of sustained success the franchise has had (2000-2003). So I don’t get the “OH NOES WE’RE TEH D00M3D†part if there are severe shakeups in the organization. That also strikes me as an overreaction, as there’s evidence that directly contradicts the idea that Lincoln + Armstrong = franchise death.
Good, relevant points, particularly the latter.
I still think Armstrong and Lincoln have flaws in their baseball management styles (and aren’t as good as they think they are), but it’s been empirically shown that they can preside over contending teams.
I still think Armstrong and Lincoln have flaws in their baseball management styles (and aren’t as good as they think they are), but it’s been empirically shown that they can preside over contending teams.
Ding.
But I would also think that 2004-2006 have also shown them they aren’t as good as they thought they were. Even if you go by the standards of comparing 2000-2001 to today in financial terms (which is usually the criticism, that Lincoln only cares about the bottom line), there are less beans to count today than there were in 2000-2001, because attendance is down dramatically.
#152: Sure, and if you like using history as your guide, Jeff Cirillo has proven he can hit. We ought to give him a four year contract. Maybe that Bret Boone fella would be a good pickup too.
The baseball world’s changed in the last few years. Billy Beane’s been running rings around the M’s lately at 70¢ on the dollar.
Um, going from “below .500 but not terrible†to “contending for your division†just isn’t that hard- so why set the goal for 2007 so low?
Because 85 seems like the outer limits of what this team can do in 2007 with Bavasi/Hargrove or Bavasi/Filler Manager. And 85 is contending in this division.
And ya know what the funny part is? Both of those years, Chuck Armstong was in Mariner management… and in 2000, Howard Lincoln was the CEO. In fact, both of them presided over the longest run of sustained success the franchise has had (2000-2003). So I don’t get the “OH NOES WE’RE TEH D00M3D†part if there are severe shakeups in the organization. That also strikes me as an overreaction, as there’s evidence that directly contradicts the idea that Lincoln + Armstrong = franchise death.
1998 and 2004. The M’s went from contenders to sub-.500 in one year. There’s just as much evidence that Lincoln and Armstrong sent this team off the cliff.
The baseball world’s changed in the last few years. Billy Beane’s been running rings around the M’s lately at 70¢ on the dollar.
But not anymore, really. Their minor league system is depleted, and he didn’t pull the trigger on a Zito deal, so he’s counting on the Yankees giving him a draft pick. Meanwhile, the smart and rich teams have caught up to him with identifying decent player-personnel.
Right now, the A’s are only in the lead because a decent bullpen, a couple of above-average starting pitchers, and a retread named Frank Thomas. Crosby is looking like a bust. Chavez hasn’t been that much better than Beltre. And Marco Scutaro has had more ABs this year than WFB.
This may be the worst team he’s fielded in years, and it really looks like the A’s aren’t going to win the division pennant next year with what they have. Right now, even with the albatross contracts, I’d rather be the M’s than the A’s.
Isn’t it maybe a tad early to be making win total predictions for 2007 – considering we have no idea what players will be on the roster? The FO has got to view this offseason as one of the most critical in team history.
Because 85 seems like the outer limits of what this team can do in 2007 with Bavasi/Hargrove or Bavasi/Filler Manager.
If Bavasi can’t do what Woody Woodward or Pat Gillick did, why is that a persuasive argument for keeping him, aside from the “Senior management so incompetent they’ll hire Cam Bonifay, given the chance” argument (which belies the fact that given the chance, they hired Woodward, Gillick and Bavasi, not Bonifay)? Either he’s good enough to build a contender from a flawed team that has some interesting talent, like many, many other GMs have managed to do, given adequate money and opportunity to make the right choices- or he isn’t. This isn’t the Soviet Union, and we don’t need a Five Year Plan.
And 85 is contending in this division.
Know how many times a team’s won this division with a .525 or worse winning percentage (the 1994 strike year aside)? Zero. You have to win 90 to have any shot. If your goal is to have the 2007 Mariners emulate the San Diego Padres in 2005, you’re setting your goals too low.
What about Ron Fairly? He can remind the players that if they hit the ball just a few feet farther, it will be a home run!
142
Why was Cottier considered so bad on your list? I mean he’s gotta get bonus points for the all time non-Lou meltdown when Winfield practically took a full swing and the ump said he checked. He was throwin’ all kinds of stuff on the field, lol.
Anyone remember that? Were talking REAL old school if you do
Re #132: I was afraid of that. I hope there aren’t too many, or — any major mistakes in there?
Dave said:
Pretty much everyone who won’t be back next year knows it by now… I don’t think you’re going to see a “take more pitches” philosophy instilled. Bavasi likes aggressive hitters…
Reading between the lines, Bavasi is back next year.
Which is fine with me, but I’ll be sure to tell the sales person who calls about renewing my season tickets that I’m going to wait until I hear who replaces Hargrove before re-upping for 07.
162
Bavasi must really be enamored with REALLY low obp’s and short games…sigh
He probably thinks that patient hitters invite pitchers’ counts.
#156: But not anymore, really. Their minor league system is depleted…
I’ve been hearing about Oakland’s eminent demise when Giambi went to NYY and then again when they weren’t going to be able to afford to pay the big three to keep the rotation together.
Yet somehow, Beane has always been able to muddle through.
I hope you’ll excuse my skepticism.
My main feeling with all of this, is to feel bad for Rohn. It seemed like he was a good soldier, and paid his dues with the organization, only to be kicked out the door like a bum getting tossed out of a fancy restaurant.
Yet somehow, Beane has always been able to muddle through.
“Muddling through” is probably not a bad characterization, given that despite all their regular-season success, the A’s have yet to win a playoff series this millennium, are in the bottom five in attendance figures for all of MLB, and are generally boring to watch. (Yes, I know, the last part is subjective.)
#167: Credit abysmally bad base running with the A’s losses in 2001 (Giambi who did not slide, the famous Jeter play) and 2003 (Byrnes shoving Varitek instead of touching home plate, and Tejada stopping between third and home expecting to be awarded a run on an interference call).
In 2002, the A’s should have skipped Zito’s final regular season start and given him 2 starts in the ALDS against the Twins, who were dismal at hitting left-handed pitching that year. But Zito’s manager thought it better to add another “W” to his regular season totals and shore up his Cy Young chances.
As for attendance, I’ve been to a few games at the Coliseum. If you had to watch baseball in that excuse for a ballpark, you might not be lining up to buy tickets either.
As for boring, I’d love to watch the M’s bore me that way. The excitement of sub-.500 baseball year after year is just too much for me to take.
As for attendance, I’ve been to a few games at the Coliseum. If you had to watch baseball in that excuse for a ballpark, you might not be lining up to buy tickets either.
I have never been inside the Coliseum, but I find it hard to believe that it’s any worse than the Kingdome–and people were lining up there when the M’s were a playoff contender.
The Coliseum’s nowhere near as bad as the Kingdome was. I kind of like it, to tell the truth. I spent many a happy afternoon there watching my mid-eighties M’s get the crap pounded out of them by Mark McGwire et al. when I was living in the Bay Area. Of course, that’s before the Raiders came back and ruined it, but still. Faux-retro isn’t everything.
Re Dave (#79) “Why isn’t it natural to just say “wow, I don’t have any idea why this happened, and without further information, I’m not going to jump to any conclusionsâ€?”
Would that it were so, about human beings, in ANY situation. Or were you thinking we’d just go completely against our nature for this one topic?
Re; Scraps (#74), I agree. It’s not about whether Rohn leaving the org now is good or bad for Rohn. Maybe it does give him a 2 week jump on finding another job. (oh yeah, cuz loads of teams are looking NOW, in this 2 week period, for their next managers). Maybe it gives him a well-deserved vacation. But one thing we know it does is makes him have to carry with him, into his next job interview, the fact that he was fired. Publicly. 2 weeks before the end of a season. With no fuzzy ‘he did a great job but this just wasn’t the position for him’ comments like Hassey got. And apparently completely by surprise based on his quotes.
Which, rightly or wrongly, gives the impression that a) Rohn did something horribly bad, and b) the Ms front office felt it was bad enough that they had to do this now, publicly and by surprise, instead of letting him coast it out for 2 weeks. If he didn’t do something horribly wrong that, if left unchecked for 2 more weeks would have caused financial or public relations ruin to the team, then, well, then it just gives the impression that the Ms don’t value loyalty or service in an organization when it comes to coaches.
“Good seats” in Oakland, front row seats, are about a mile and a half from the foul lines. Across the bay the Giants have a wonderful new ballpark with excellent sight lines.
Imagine if the pre-Safeco M’s had to compete with an MLB team with a fan-friendly ballpark in Bellevue. When they were in the Kingdome, as bad as the Kingdome was, they were the only game in town.
For what it’s worth —
It was noted that Dan Rohn was wearing his uniform in the dugout during games, which is apparently a violation of MLB policy. Having seen Dan over the years in Tacoma, I can understand why he may have wanted a more “hands on” role than the “administrative coach” position would have allowed.
With the Rainiers, Dan was very much a “hands on” manager — coaching third base, very involved in the game, and his players. Given his personality and inclinations, it is hard for me to imagine Dan Rohn in a suit, out of the dugout, game after game.
Despite the obvious sting, Dan handled the firing with a lot of class.
Here’s wishing him the best of luck, wherever he ends up — probably the best manager that the Tacoma Rainers have had, a tried and true baseball man, and a class act.
My only question is why was Dan Rohn “fired” while Ron Hassey was given the option of staying until the end or leaving now? Why does it sound more like Rohn wasn’t given the choice?
#174: Yep.
For those of us old enough to remember Watergate:
“Today, in one of the most difficult decisions of my presidency, I accepted the resignations of two of my closest associates in the White House — Bob Haldeman, John Ehrlichman — two of the finest public servants it has been my privilege to know.
“The counsel to the president, John Dean, has also resigned.”
– RN 4/30/73
Maybe it does give him a 2 week jump on finding another job. (oh yeah, cuz loads of teams are looking NOW, in this 2 week period, for their next managers).
With the minor league season over (except for the playoffs), organizations are certainly looking now for their next minor league managers and staff.
As for major league coaching jobs, organizations will fill most of their vacancies by the third or fourth week of October. Organizations that will have major league coaching jobs open are certainly identifying candidates now, even if the coaches currently holding those positions will not know that they will need to look for new jobs until the first week of October.
Larry Stone says that Hargrove’s job is safe for next year, and that Rohn was fired at Hargrove’s insistence over personality (and coaching decision) clashes with Hargrove. Here’s the link:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/6097214p-5344126c.html
Now, if you’re gonna can the guy in the offseason, why would you fire someone likely to be an internal candidate to replace him? Dave? Anyone?
#177: You’re quoting Larry Larue at the TNT, not Larry Stone. Larue says this about Rohn’s firing:
“the decision on Rohn, who was in a newly created administrative coaching position, was more about a clash of personalities. Sources said Rohn disagreed with Hargrove’s managing and, worse, talked to other coaches and players about it. When that got back to Hargrove, Rohn’s departure was a matter of time, sources said.”
Articles in the P-I (Baseball Notes) and Times (Geoff Baker) both also indicate that Hargrove is staying on, and that one indication of this is that he and Bavasi have creating a list and are starting THEIR search for a new bench coach.
And Art Thiel has an article that many of us would also agree with, that this is akin to finding a problem with your car and thinking that removing the hood ornament will fix it.
So…I like Rohn better knowing he had the audacity (and baseball intelligence) to disagree with Hargrove’s decisions. And it doesn’t surprise me that he didn’t have the patience or political correctness to just suck it up, stay silent. I watch that kind of BS behavior every day, ALL day at my current job and I can’t seem to exercise patience or political correctness in that situation either.
And, we’ve heard here, all year long that Hargrove would be out soon, and on this thread that these firings didn’t mean he was staying. Yet now there are 3 newspaper articles and an already-begun search for a new bench coach that would strongly indicate that he’s coming back next year. Truly, if there were ANY thoughts in the Ms organization that Hargrove would not be back next year, there is no way they’d be thinking ahead to who is going to be his bench coach next year.
While I’ve no doubt that Dave’s inside info is accurate 99.99% of the time, I’ve got to believe that in this case – even Dave is deluded by wishful thinking when he assures us that Hargrove is gone…any day now. (or, maybe he should just warn those inside sources at the Ms that he talks to, the ones who think Hargrove SHOULD be gone, that they better not get caught saying it or they’re toast).
Why Rohn would have been a good choice for manager = “Sources said Rohn disagreed with Hargrove’s managing and, worse, talked to other coaches and players about it.”
Dave, if you are still reading this post, what percent are you confident that Hargrove won’t be back next year. Its really looking more and more likely that he will be to me.
178–We gave Melvin an extension before we fired him. The M’s don’t like to leak decisions like that to the public…
There’s a difference between extending a guy, and letting him hire a new guy. In the first case, you’re only screwing with one guy, in the second, you’re screwing with two. But hey, the Ms have shown they’re a classy organization like that.
I wonder if Wilson would like to manage? I am sure that he would be good at that and has some better smarts than the Grover.
So…I like Rohn better knowing he had the audacity (and baseball intelligence) to disagree with Hargrove’s decisions. And it doesn’t surprise me that he didn’t have the patience or political correctness to just suck it up, stay silent. I watch that kind of BS behavior every day, ALL day at my current job and I can’t seem to exercise patience or political correctness in that situation either
What? As much as Dan Rohn was right in that Hargrove’s decision making and managing were both horrible, to be sowing seeds of dissention by talking about it openly with the other coaches (Hargrove’s coaches) is just ridiculously stupid. There are people you talk to when you don’t agree with how someone else is handling things / doing things. You don’t bitch about it around the water cooler and not expect some reprecussions when it gets back to the Boss.
If it’s true that’s what Rohn was doing, he deserved to be fired.
And another story asserting that’s what Rohn was doing. By Larry Stone, who a) the authors here like and trust, and b) also believes Hargrove will be back – because Bavasi is solidly in his corner.
Larry Stone article from Sunday
Of course, who knew that Rohn was to blame for the losses this season, all that undermining he was doing. I wonder how he had time to do that LAST season when Hargrove was losing and the players hated him then as well? Cart? Meet horse.
You know what? Beane is all smoke and mirrors. Sorry, until he wins more than a division race or the AL Wild Card, I will show him some respect. Name a post season where the A’s owned anybody in Beane’s time there? Funniest yet, Stoneman is the complete 180 of Beane and he seems to do okay every year (except this one).
I’d say I have faith that next year will be better. I say this because Hargrove won’t be back if Hassey leaving is any indication of things to come.