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	<title>Comments on: Manny trade rumors, I lash out at the messenger</title>
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	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: scraps</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155182</link>
		<dc:creator>scraps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155182</guid>
		<description>The scout may not have been being literal, but he was still being a mockable idiot.  Ortiz will likely have a normal year for him next year -- because &quot;protection&quot; means much less than people think it does -- and no one will say anything; but if he happens to have an off year, of course the absence of Ramirez would confidently be blamed, because we make particular note of the things that seem to confirm the things we already believe to be true.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
In 1995, drove in 121 runs with only 123 hits, the highest hits-to-RBI ratio in major league history for a player with more than 100 RBI” That’s the definition of clutch, I do believe.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No disrespect to Buhner -- I loved having him on the Mariners -- but I think it&#039;s also what happens when you hit .262 but more than half your hits are for extra bases, and when you have Edgar putting up a .479 onbase average in front of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scout may not have been being literal, but he was still being a mockable idiot.  Ortiz will likely have a normal year for him next year &#8212; because &#8220;protection&#8221; means much less than people think it does &#8212; and no one will say anything; but if he happens to have an off year, of course the absence of Ramirez would confidently be blamed, because we make particular note of the things that seem to confirm the things we already believe to be true.</p>
<blockquote><p>
In 1995, drove in 121 runs with only 123 hits, the highest hits-to-RBI ratio in major league history for a player with more than 100 RBI” That’s the definition of clutch, I do believe.
</p></blockquote>
<p>No disrespect to Buhner &#8212; I loved having him on the Mariners &#8212; but I think it&#8217;s also what happens when you hit .262 but more than half your hits are for extra bases, and when you have Edgar putting up a .479 onbase average in front of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Murton</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155175</link>
		<dc:creator>Murton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155175</guid>
		<description>&quot;Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post’s title of “lashing out” should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.&quot;

No offense, but you lash out often and it&#039;s not always kooky excess.  Sorry if I was mistaken.  That you went into detail about the largest walk totals in history and the groupings of hitters involved, as though you were making an actual case against it, prevented me from being tipped off.  Again, sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post’s title of “lashing out” should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.&#8221;</p>
<p>No offense, but you lash out often and it&#8217;s not always kooky excess.  Sorry if I was mistaken.  That you went into detail about the largest walk totals in history and the groupings of hitters involved, as though you were making an actual case against it, prevented me from being tipped off.  Again, sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: JI</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155135</link>
		<dc:creator>JI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155135</guid>
		<description>What, I can&#039;t lash out at Buster too? Aww... :(

My favorite part happens to be where the source implies that J.D. Drew can&#039;t hit good pitching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, I can&#8217;t lash out at Buster too? Aww&#8230; <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My favorite part happens to be where the source implies that J.D. Drew can&#8217;t hit good pitching.</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155099</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155099</guid>
		<description>Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post&#039;s title of &quot;lashing out&quot; should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh huh. And maybe, just maybe, the multiple mentions of the foul mood and even the post&#8217;s title of &#8220;lashing out&#8221; should have tipped you off that that was clearly taking offense at the slightest provocation on account of said bad mood.</p>
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		<title>By: JI</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155098</link>
		<dc:creator>JI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155098</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That guy will draw about 200 walks next year without Manny hitting behind him&lt;/i&gt;

1. If Ortiz drew 200 walks, it would ho down as one of the all time great MLB seasons. He&#039;d be in the company of Mantle, Ruth, and Williams. I don&#039;t see why that&#039;s a bad thing.

2. Maybe, just maybe, the source in question wasn&#039;t speaking literally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That guy will draw about 200 walks next year without Manny hitting behind him</i></p>
<p>1. If Ortiz drew 200 walks, it would ho down as one of the all time great MLB seasons. He&#8217;d be in the company of Mantle, Ruth, and Williams. I don&#8217;t see why that&#8217;s a bad thing.</p>
<p>2. Maybe, just maybe, the source in question wasn&#8217;t speaking literally.</p>
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		<title>By: James T</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155097</link>
		<dc:creator>James T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155097</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t really see a good fit for the Red Sox with the Giants.  I sort of wonder if the Sox leaked that team&#039;s name to the press, or allowed the Giants to, in order to give a kick in the ass to Ned.  

The problem for the Sox is that while they&#039;d love to trade Manny and get prospects that would make htem a hell of a lot better in 2009 etc when Manny&#039;s gone they don&#039;t want to give up 2007.  It&#039;s Schilling&#039;s last year.  It&#039;s a year out of the prime of Ortiz.  They can deal with Manny&#039;s contract just fine.  And they&#039;ll be spending $140 million.  It&#039;s very hard for them to make a 90% effort for any particular season.  Almost everything except Ortiz went wrong last year and they still won 86 games.  I think, at one point in August, they had 3 starters, their closer, catcher, shortstop, left fielder and right fielder out at the same time with the centerfielder still trying to get over his thumb/hand injury and every reliever besides the closer turning to guano.  And they still won 86 games.  

It must be hard not to think that with middling luck and a few additions they could be a playoff team and maybe go all the way.  And, I think I read at Baseball America that the Sox spent more on their draft than any other team in 2006.  You could conclude that that&#039;s enough for the future and paying Manny for now is fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really see a good fit for the Red Sox with the Giants.  I sort of wonder if the Sox leaked that team&#8217;s name to the press, or allowed the Giants to, in order to give a kick in the ass to Ned.  </p>
<p>The problem for the Sox is that while they&#8217;d love to trade Manny and get prospects that would make htem a hell of a lot better in 2009 etc when Manny&#8217;s gone they don&#8217;t want to give up 2007.  It&#8217;s Schilling&#8217;s last year.  It&#8217;s a year out of the prime of Ortiz.  They can deal with Manny&#8217;s contract just fine.  And they&#8217;ll be spending $140 million.  It&#8217;s very hard for them to make a 90% effort for any particular season.  Almost everything except Ortiz went wrong last year and they still won 86 games.  I think, at one point in August, they had 3 starters, their closer, catcher, shortstop, left fielder and right fielder out at the same time with the centerfielder still trying to get over his thumb/hand injury and every reliever besides the closer turning to guano.  And they still won 86 games.  </p>
<p>It must be hard not to think that with middling luck and a few additions they could be a playoff team and maybe go all the way.  And, I think I read at Baseball America that the Sox spent more on their draft than any other team in 2006.  You could conclude that that&#8217;s enough for the future and paying Manny for now is fine.</p>
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		<title>By: Murton</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155087</link>
		<dc:creator>Murton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155087</guid>
		<description>I think the scout was being facetious.  I think he just meant Ortiz is going to walk a lot and he did at times when Manny was out of the lineups, sometimes 4 times a game.

And the whole clutch thing being owed to Manny&#039;s presence, I think there&#039;s something to that in that psychologically, Ortiz could feel protected, like he&#039;s going to get a pitch to hit and stays ready for it.  It certainly can&#039;t but help but the thing is, Ortiz&#039;s been getting big hits for the Red Sox even without Manny behind him.  He got them in 2003 when he batted fifth or sixth and when the Red Sox won the World Series, he got them when he hit cleanup behind Manny.  And also, I don&#039;t buy into the notion that pitchers, who late in the game are often guys with good pitches, just give in and challenge Ortiz because Manny&#039;s behind him in late game situations.  What&#039;s the point of fearing Manny when a hittable pitch to Ortiz could end the game and make all that fear moot?  I think Ortiz has come through many times because he&#039;s a good hitter with great bat speed who can hit good pitches, won&#039;t miss on many mistakes and has the ability to really focus mentally.  I, for one, am really unclutch because I press too much in those tight moments and I marvel at those who don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the scout was being facetious.  I think he just meant Ortiz is going to walk a lot and he did at times when Manny was out of the lineups, sometimes 4 times a game.</p>
<p>And the whole clutch thing being owed to Manny&#8217;s presence, I think there&#8217;s something to that in that psychologically, Ortiz could feel protected, like he&#8217;s going to get a pitch to hit and stays ready for it.  It certainly can&#8217;t but help but the thing is, Ortiz&#8217;s been getting big hits for the Red Sox even without Manny behind him.  He got them in 2003 when he batted fifth or sixth and when the Red Sox won the World Series, he got them when he hit cleanup behind Manny.  And also, I don&#8217;t buy into the notion that pitchers, who late in the game are often guys with good pitches, just give in and challenge Ortiz because Manny&#8217;s behind him in late game situations.  What&#8217;s the point of fearing Manny when a hittable pitch to Ortiz could end the game and make all that fear moot?  I think Ortiz has come through many times because he&#8217;s a good hitter with great bat speed who can hit good pitches, won&#8217;t miss on many mistakes and has the ability to really focus mentally.  I, for one, am really unclutch because I press too much in those tight moments and I marvel at those who don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155078</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ortiz might lose that &quot;great clutch hitter&quot; moniker without Manny behind him, though.  I have to think Ortiz gets better pitches in high leverage situations due primarily to Manny&#039;s presence behind him.

Sure, he won&#039;t walk 200 times, but he might walk an extra 40 times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ortiz might lose that &#8220;great clutch hitter&#8221; moniker without Manny behind him, though.  I have to think Ortiz gets better pitches in high leverage situations due primarily to Manny&#8217;s presence behind him.</p>
<p>Sure, he won&#8217;t walk 200 times, but he might walk an extra 40 times.</p>
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		<title>By: Wishhiker</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155073</link>
		<dc:creator>Wishhiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155073</guid>
		<description>Once finished fifth in AL MVP voting and winning one gold glove is not a HOFer. 

It&#039;s interesting to know that Buhner &quot;In 1995, drove in 121 runs with only 123 hits, the highest hits-to-RBI ratio in major league history for a player with more than 100 RBI&quot;  That&#039;s the definition of clutch, I do believe.  I fu@%ing miss Buhner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once finished fifth in AL MVP voting and winning one gold glove is not a HOFer. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to know that Buhner &#8220;In 1995, drove in 121 runs with only 123 hits, the highest hits-to-RBI ratio in major league history for a player with more than 100 RBI&#8221;  That&#8217;s the definition of clutch, I do believe.  I fu@%ing miss Buhner.</p>
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		<title>By: Wishhiker</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/comment-page-1/#comment-155066</link>
		<dc:creator>Wishhiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 01:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2006/11/27/manny-trade-rumors-i-lash-out-at-the-messenger/#comment-155066</guid>
		<description>This is just another reporter not researching before speaking.

It seems to me the most likely to get 200 BB next year (if anyone were to) based on last years stats would be Bonds who had 115 in 367 AB not Ortiz who had 119 in 558.  I realize that the idea started with Ortiz not missing as much time and no longer having Manny protect him.  2006 was a career year in almost every individual stat for Ortiz, including walks.  Ortiz has had 100 BB exactly twice in his career (13 times for Bonds).  In the 3 years Bonds had the most walks (listed in header highest walks to lowest) he had SLG&#039;s of .812, .799 and .863.  Ortiz&#039;s highest SLG. in a season is last years .636 which followed his improvement the 2 previous years (and only other years it&#039;s topped .600).  If Ortiz started the season hot next year, was sporting an .800+ SLG as late as July and didn&#039;t fade much he might have a shot.  Why should anyone beleive that Ortiz can improve his career high SLG by .164+?  Ruth and Bonds are the only players to ever top .800 SLG over a season and that&#039;s what I think it takes in order to achieve 200 BB.  Ruth didn&#039;t receive the intentional walks that Bonds did, it just wasn&#039;t such a part of the game yet.  I guess it&#039;s mostly up to the other AL Managers whether Ortiz will be feared enough to receive 100+ IBB, but with a .6-something SLG I don&#039;t see it happening.

Oddly though Ortiz&#039;s OBP, SLG, (BB and HR) have improved every year for the last 5 years (6 for SLG, HR)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just another reporter not researching before speaking.</p>
<p>It seems to me the most likely to get 200 BB next year (if anyone were to) based on last years stats would be Bonds who had 115 in 367 AB not Ortiz who had 119 in 558.  I realize that the idea started with Ortiz not missing as much time and no longer having Manny protect him.  2006 was a career year in almost every individual stat for Ortiz, including walks.  Ortiz has had 100 BB exactly twice in his career (13 times for Bonds).  In the 3 years Bonds had the most walks (listed in header highest walks to lowest) he had SLG&#8217;s of .812, .799 and .863.  Ortiz&#8217;s highest SLG. in a season is last years .636 which followed his improvement the 2 previous years (and only other years it&#8217;s topped .600).  If Ortiz started the season hot next year, was sporting an .800+ SLG as late as July and didn&#8217;t fade much he might have a shot.  Why should anyone beleive that Ortiz can improve his career high SLG by .164+?  Ruth and Bonds are the only players to ever top .800 SLG over a season and that&#8217;s what I think it takes in order to achieve 200 BB.  Ruth didn&#8217;t receive the intentional walks that Bonds did, it just wasn&#8217;t such a part of the game yet.  I guess it&#8217;s mostly up to the other AL Managers whether Ortiz will be feared enough to receive 100+ IBB, but with a .6-something SLG I don&#8217;t see it happening.</p>
<p>Oddly though Ortiz&#8217;s OBP, SLG, (BB and HR) have improved every year for the last 5 years (6 for SLG, HR)</p>
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