Pat Gillick, Mariners Savior
Well, he owes us big time for the crap he pulled while he was Mariner GM, but this is a decent first step towards making it up to the Mariners. The Phillies have agreed to a deal with Adam Eaton for 3 years and $24 million.
This takes a local white kid off the market, which is always dangerous fruit where the Mariners are concerned, as well as establishing the market for mediocre starting pitchers at a much lower threshold than expected. Now, teams will have a little more leverage in their direction while trying to drive down the salaries of all the other mediocre back-end starters on the market.
So, thank you Pat Gillick. It’s about time you did something to help the Mariners.
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I’m glad. With this and the sounds that L.A. will sign Schmidt, I wonder what our rotation is going to look like.
My fear is that Bavasi sees this, and “Oh, dear. I lost one of my pitching prospects” and panicks and decides “Well, better sign Meche! Whatever it takes….and get that Pineiro guy back here. He’s my #3 starter!”
I’m so happy I could sing. (And that proves it because I’m so horrible at singing I hurt my own ears.)
LA isn’t signing Schmidt. They inked Randy Wolf to a one year, $8 million deal today, taking them out of the market for any other FA starters.
It’s still 95% likely that Schmidt’s a Mariner next year.
Do you consider that a good thing, Dave?
Why do you have to ruin our fun every time Dave? Why not give us a couple of hours to savor this?
Do you consider that a good thing, Dave?
No, because I think we’re going to give him 5/60 with a no-trade clause. I’d take him for 3/30, but that’s my line in the sand.
Oh and I guess signing Ichiro, Edger to all of his contract extensions, Olerud and Boone while he was good didn’t “help” the Mariners.
You guys ever spend any time thinking about the desirability of the Seattle area to prospective free agents and whether or not the M’s need to pay premiums to get guys to come here? I’ve never seen that discussed directly.
That’s a lot less than I was expecting Eaton to go for. Perhaps it won’t cost as much to sign Schmidt as orginally thought?
or does Eaton have to give an injury discount?
Dave, what is your honest guess on what we will sign Schmidt for if you say its 95% we’ll sign him? I assume we won’t get a huge hometown discount but I would expect a bit of one. 4/48. What do you think?
A question from a friend:
Is there anyone left that the M’s could sign this off season?
Besides maybe Kei Igawa.
They inked Randy Wolf to a one year, $8 million deal today, taking them out of the market for any other FA starters.
That’s a little less than I expected Wolf to sign for, but is there really substance to reports that teams were offering Mr. Wolf an Esteban Loaiza-type $20M/3yr deal? I guess I just have trouble believing that teams would give three years to a starter averaging about 80 innings/year and coming off of a season where his ERA (clearly still considered valuable information by many clubs) was over 5.50.
Mat – Wolf was coming off of surgery last year. His numbers improved later in the year as he regained a bit of form and most reports I’ve seen expect his numbers to reflect more what he did at the end of the year. But he’s really only mid-rotation starter at best.
As for having to pay a premium to get free agents to come here, I just don’t understand why they think Seattle is such an outpost. How many celebrities do you hear of retiring to Cleveland or Detroit because of their beauty? Such a weird bias against our area. As if we have to row dugout canoes to get to a covered wagon that can take us to the airport. Sheesh.
Too bad the M’s didn’t throw more money at Millwood last year. I considered him the cream of the crop, and barely over 30. Sigh.
Also, Dave, what do you think about the Eaton deal from the Phils’ perspective? Too much money? Too many years? About right?
From where I sit, while he is certainly an injury risk, he did post pretty good numbers in ‘04 and ‘05. The GB rate looks less than desirable, especially given the Phils’ home park, but if he goes back to 7:3 K/G:BB/G, the GB rate wouldn’t seem to be a huge problem.
Oh God. The horror awaits.
There is also the Mariners’ self-defeating disregard for the rest of the market, that has them overbidding wildly for washouts that few other teams are interested in (like Washburn) because they “think they are worth it”.
Might make a trade more likely?
Makes Jason Schmidt more of a potential albatross?
I still like Eaton more than Lilly, Meche, or Padilla. They got him for 3 years, which is nice instead of guaranteeing 4.
Who’s “Edger” and why does he need extensions?
Wolf was coming off of surgery last year. His numbers improved later in the year as he regained a bit of form and most reports I’ve seen expect his numbers to reflect more what he did at the end of the year. But he’s really only mid-rotation starter at best.
Sure, I think that for a team with a pretty big budget like the Dodgers, a 1 year, $8M deal for Wolf is pretty reasonable. If nothing else, at least the length of the commitment is right. It’s the history of being injured that make me doubt the rumors of 3-year deals being offered to Wolf.
I’m in an optimistic mood today. Say the M’s sign Schmidt for a relatively reasonable 4/40. Where does that leave the M’s for their two remaining rotation options? Assuming a scrub fills the 5th rotation spot, that would leave one more pitcher, to be acquired either from free agency or trade. Unless of course, the FO wants another 30 Joel Pineiro starts next year.
1/8 for Wolf? Insert taking the Lord’s name in vain here.
At this point, 5/60 for Schmidt may not be the end of the world, considering that he probably has the leverage to ask for 5/75. In other words, he would only be a medium-sized albatross around the neck of the Mariners, not a Kirkland Signature family-sized model.
Never thought I could be this happy that Bavasi is sitting on his thumb.
Red Apple – I agree about Seattle – although a lot of people who’ve never been here believe the publicity about the weather.
I can’t agree about wanting that Millwood contract though; it only looks good compared to the Washburn albatross.
Never? The less Bill B does in the free agent market the more I like him.
I’m also very happy about Bavasi staying out of it. But at the same time, the team has a lot of work to do on that rotation, and honestly it would be a little bit of a disaster if we didn’t add at least one of the three pitchers we need this offseason. Whether it be from a trade, an international signing, or whatever.
$8 million a year, for only 3 years for a #4 starter that has better stuff than Washburn? Preposterous!
I am very happy Seattle couldn’t sign him. First good news of the winter. Hooray!
1/8 for Wolf? Insert taking the Lord’s name in vain here.
Why exactly? If Wolf doesn’t fix his walk rates, or stays injured, the Dodgers flushed $8M of a $100M payroll down the tube. That’s certainly not going to make you happy, but it’s also not the end of the world, and that’s the worst case scenario. If Wolf is healthy, he was a reasonably effective pitcher in ‘04 and ‘05, with an xFIP around 4.70, which isn’t too far from Jason Schmidt’s 4.63 xFIP from last year, and seems to be middle-of-the-pack as far as qualified starting pitchers in the NL last year. There really isn’t much risk in the contract, and there’s a moderate reward. It seems like a reasonable deal to me.
I like the look of these pitchers’ contracts. Perhaps the market for 3rd/4th starters is not going to be so overheated after all.
And how excited will teams be about a guy (Schmidt) who turns 33 in a month? Let reason prevail.
Combine Wolf’s 8 million with Pierre’s almost nine million and the dodgers have flushed 17 million of a hundred million dollar payroll down the toilet…
As for having to pay a premium to get free agents to come here, I just don’t understand why they think Seattle is such an outpost.
Ever flown back east? DFW is a 3.5 hour flight. Chicago is 4 hours. If you live in Florida, it’s a full day to get from Seattle to Miami.
Admittedly, this is a far better place to live than Atlanta or Detroit, but in either case, you can hop on a plane at 8am and be playing golf in Coral Gables by 1pm.
Screw that. I can get in my car at 8am, and be hacking up the mud on Jackson Park at 8.15am. In the mist and sleet.
It’s the way golf should be played. That’s why the Scots invented whiskey (and the Irish perfected it).
Ever flown back east? DFW is a 3.5 hour flight. Chicago is 4 hours. If you live in Florida, it’s a full day to get from Seattle to Miami.
Yes, I’ve flown back east. And I’d rather do that several times a year than spend half a season living in some…not so choice cities. All one’s preference, though.
Happy to see we got Adam Eaton back. *crosses fingers he stays healthy*
I don’t see how this helps our cause or establishes anything as far as back end starters go.
Eaton has managed to pitch more than 130 innings all of once in the last three years. If a mediocre SP that can’t stay healthy is worth 8 mil per then what’s a 200 IP mediocre SP going to command.
You better believe people will point to durability when talking up their clients, this deal just made everyone else’s contract demands go up imho.
I admit he totally too much money for someone who cannot stay healthy. he’s almost making Beckett money. are they even close to being the same pitcher.
Pretty good signing by Gillick here, I would expect Eaton to be a worthwile investment for them. Can we survive off two inhouse guys for 4 and 5? Woods and Baek? Or can J. Reed be swapped for an upgrade over those two:?
I thought going into the off-season that Eaton was viewed as the 2nd most desirable starting pitcher on the auction block. Much as Carlos Lee was the 2nd most desirable hitter.
Flawed? Yes! In SPADES. But in a thin market teams have been throwing money away like mad. I didn’t expect Eaton to get nine figures, but I thought a Washburn-like contract was out there for him. Frankly, I thought the M’s would offer him one.
Ergo, I am happy about this. Until I hear of the 5yr/$60M contract with Schmidt.
Ever flown back east? DFW is a 3.5 hour flight. Chicago is 4 hours. If you live in Florida, it’s a full day to get from Seattle to Miami.
I can’t imagine why anyone would want to live in Florida. I’d rather live in Pullman.
Seattle’s distance from most players’ homes is a bigger deal than you think.
Yes, and the long flights just to see your family are a factor.
I can’t imagine why anyone would want to live in Florida.
For some people, Florida’s peculiar laws about wage garnishment make it the only place to be after you’ve, say, run away from a string of failed car dealerships or other business interests.
After all, Jamie Moyer has some special clauses in his Phillies contract such that he can spend some extra off-days with his family in Seattle. I mean, the closest other MLB cities are a thousand miles away, right?
The time zone makes it a bigger pain, too.
Either way, the Phillies fan half of me is happy with the Eaton contract, anyway.
For some people, Florida’s peculiar laws about wage garnishment make it the only place to be after you’ve, say, run away from a string of failed car dealerships or other business interests.
Priceless! Very interesting aspect.
Florida also has very favorable tax laws for the rich.
Florida’s…the only place to be after you’ve, say, run away from a string of failed car dealerships or other business interests.
That oughta thrill Carl Hiassen and Jimmy Buffett…
In other Mariner-related signings, Scott Atchison is now the property of the San Francisco Giants, according to Baseball America.
Dave, this is the second time recently that you’ve referred to a player’s ethnicity in relation to the team’s potential interest in them. To what degree is that a factor? Have there been local talents of a non-white ethnic background that the team has mysteriously failed to pursue? Beyond local ties, do you feel that the team has failed to pursue non-white players disproportionately to whites? Disproportionately to other teams? Disproportionately to their percentage of overall major-league players?
Does Florida have an extradition treaty with the United States?
They don’t even have democratic elections in Florida.
For some people, Florida’s peculiar laws about wage garnishment make it the only place to be after you’ve, say, run away from a string of failed car dealerships or other business interests.
Or civil judgments relating to the murder of your ex-wife.
Flyng back East several times a year is a lot different than flying the most, for 81 games of a season, of any team. It would take a toll, both on your body and on your family time. At least playing in Colorado only takes a toll on your body.
There’s the factor of other commercial interests also. I mean, yeah, Jamie Moyer got that sweet deal endorsing Brown Bear car washes and All-Star auto glass, but really, in bigger markets there are some serious endorsement deals to be made.
Plus, there’s the whole thing about whether the team has a chance to win. I think THAT is really the most critical factor in whether good quality free agents want to sign here or not. They don’t think we do (personally, neither do I right now) and that matters to them.
–
That said, I’ll remind Dave that it was Pat Gillick who brought us Bob Engle, who begat Felix Hernandez among others. I do understand the whole ‘left the cupboard bare’ thing; I just think it’s a little overemphasized. Bavasi has re-stocked the minors, but he’s also traded away a lot of that re-stocking, and I’m thinking even our farm systems had more championships and/or playoff appearances during the Gillick time than the Bavasi time. I’m just unclear how we really measure GM success in these areas. I don’t think how personable the GM is (and Bavasi beats Gillick big-time on that) should count for much.
I won’t be impressed until I see who the M’s do sign. I don’t see the M’s being able to keep from signing at least one FA SP without trading some top talent away, which is counterproductive. They will probably sign 2 SP so I’ll save my reaction on that level for when I know the who?/how-long?/how-much? the team will be paying. I mean I remember saying “I’m glad the M’s didn’t sign Loaiza for that” only to turn around and say “I’d rather they signed the Loaiza contract.”
It is good that the back end starter pay doesn’t seem to be escalating as much as had been presumed by many. This bodes well for everyone, but it still seems like $8M is too much.
And Gillick…Help the Mariners?
He signed Felix Hernandez…
We’re talking about the same Gillick right? The one whose Mariners clubs averaged 98 wins and reached two American League Championship Series in four years?
I really enjoyed watching those clubs including the record tying 116 win club. Thank you Gillick for 116 wins!!!!!!!!!!
He must have done something to help the M’s…
Gillick…I thank him for Engle and therefore alot of the international scouting that has put some key players on this present roster! When Gillick came in the farm system was very thin and he left it to Bavasi with George Sherrill, Chris Snelling, Felix Hernandez, Bryan Lahair, Thomas Oldham, Jose Lopez, Adam Jones, Shin-Soo Choo, Troy Cate, Eddy Fernandez, Ron Garth, Craig James, Manelik Pimentel, Ryan Rowland-Smith, Travis Blackley, Ryan Feierabend, Michael Garciaparra, Joseph Woerman, Mike Wilson, Eric O’Flaherty, Cha Seung Baek, Luis Valbuena, Clint Nageotte and Rett Johnson among others. All this while losing top picks to signing FA’s including not drafting in the first 3 rounds of 2000, though they drafted in the first every other year he was here. Also drafting and not being able to sign players like Eduardo Martinez-Esteve and John Mayberry Jr.
Frank Mattox was named the Scouting Director in 1998 by Woody Woodward. I doubt that Gillick decided to keep Mattox in 2000, so it’s probable that Chuck Armstrong forced Gillick to keep Mattox. Prior to 2004 Mattox presided over 6 consecutive drafts for the M’s. If you want to blame Gillick for the M’s farm, go look at Mattox’s drafts. His best picks are probably Rich Harden in the 38th(team couldn’t sign), JJ Putz in the 6th, Willie Bloomquist in the 3rd(second draft attempt, THANKS FRANK!!!) or the Jones-Feierabend-O’Flaherty picks in 2003 when Gillick had more control of the draft, because Mattox had proven to suck for 5 previous horrible drafts. In 2004 Bob Fontaine Jr. became Scouting Director (appointed by Bavasi) and hasn’t improved the drafts much if at all. His only good looking pick so far (aside from no-brainer top 10 of the draft) is Mark Lowe in the 5th round of 2004. The M’s minor league system was ranked second and fourth best in the league by Baseball America in 2001 and 2002 and is currently ranked #11. Again Bob Engle and the International Scouting that Gillick focused on improving are a huge part of what keeps the M’s from being #14.
Pat Gillick was given a platinum visa card, bought a nice car, went out on the town, and had a good time impressing everyone who saw him. When the bill came, he took out another card, transferred the balance, and stopped getting oil changes. When the next bill came, he decided to ignore it and promptly drove the car into a tree.
Then, when the car was taken to Mr. Lincoln’s Garage for repairs and a mechanic named Bavasi was asked to fix it, Pat again declined to pay the bill, but he did stick around for a while and tell Bill what wrench to use.
The legacy of Pat Gillick in Seattle is that of a guy who lived on someone else’s dime and made others clean up his mess. He’s a douchebag who deserves every ounce of criticism that could be leveled at him.
I’d like to see someone actually add up the number of hours spent in planes for Seattle as compared to other teams. I would wager it’s a whole lot less than people think.
AL West teams only make two east coast swings per year, and the flight isn’t much longer (if at all) from Seattle than it is from California. That makes 4 flights across the country per year.
Once you’re on a road trip, the flights from town to town are the same length for all teams. It’s only the flight at the start and finish of each trip. The flight from Seattle to Oakland — or even Seattle to LA — really isn’t that long. And the Angels make that same flight every west coast trip when they come to Seattle. No difference.
Hey Dave…
I used facts to make my point. You tell a good story, but it’s all broad strokes, metaphor, inuendo and opinion.
Ralph, I think what folks are saying here is that for non-game-related trips, Seattle is far away. That is, it is far from where a lot of players have families that they’d like to see. And a lot of baseball players live in Florida, or other warmer climates where you can play baseball, during the offseason, so presumably that’s where their families stay most of the year. I’d tend to agree that for “business travel” the difference isn’t huge between Seattle and other teams.
I think some make the travel thing a bigger issue than it should be, but I think it definitely weighs in on FA decisions when the money is fairly close.
Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale
A tale of a fateful spree
That started in this East city
In which home runs often flee
The winter started getting rough
With concern about the cost
If not for the courage of the fearless Pat
The Phillies would be lost
The Phillies would be lost
Now the team’s aground on the shore of this
Predictable decline phase
With the GM
The owner too
The multimillionaires
And the scrubs
The MVP
The Eaton lad and Moyer Man
Here on Gillickan’s Isle!
I’ve seen figures for flight miles per teams, and it’s a surprisingly huge difference — something like 10,000 miles per year per player. It’s because there are no near teams to make for short trips. Next highest is Oakland and SF, then the Southern Cal teams, if I’m not mistaken. Even Colorado and Minnesota are a LOT closer to the rest of the leagues.
And partially because of facing our hated rival the Padres every year.
I’ve seen figures for flight miles per teams, and it’s a surprisingly huge difference — something like 10,000 miles per year per player.
What’s 10,000 miles, though? Flying the approximately 1,700 miles from Seattle to Minneapolis takes about 3.5 hours. Using that as a rough guide, 10,000 miles translates to about 20.6 hours. But that’s over the course of the whole season. Averaged over the entire season, it’s about an hour per week. So while that’s big enough that you could probably notice it, especially since it doesn’t get nicely averaged out in reality, I doubt it’s getting to the point that it really becomes a big problem.
10,000 miles equals about 20 hours.
That was hilarious, Jim. I love parodies.
I spent 10 months this year flying to a work assignment in NY every Sunday night on the red eye, rolling straight into the office Monday am, and flying home after work on Thursday night. Granted, 10 months is longer than a baseball season, but it got to be an incredible grind. (Believe it or not, there were at least a dozen other regulars on the redeye every week. Flying back Super Bowl Sunday night was like the Bataan Death March.) Flying to LA or SF are cake compared to the flights here.
And I generally like flying and travel of all kinds. My impression of your typical pro athlete, based on part on casual acquaintance with a handful, is that they do not. I don’t think it’s a major factor (I did it for my work), but given my druthers … well y’know how it is with druthers.
There’s the factor of other commercial interests also. I mean, yeah, Jamie Moyer got that sweet deal endorsing Brown Bear car washes and All-Star auto glass, but really, in bigger markets there are some serious endorsement deals to be made.
and he had to buy the Auto Glass shop to get the commercial gig
Hey Dave…I used facts to make my point. You tell a good story, but it’s all broad strokes, metaphor, inuendo and opinion.
possibly because he has already gone over (in great detail) the points you made…
I still mentioned several points of how Gillick helped the M’s, which the snarling inuendo at the top of the posts suggest he hasn’t. Merely by signing Felix, Ichiro and Lopez you’re talking about a big part of the team. If Dave would like to remove these players from the M’s roster, as well as Jones, Lahair, Garciaparra etc. I can understand him saying that Gillick did nothing for this club. However I think you’d haveto remove Bob Engle and therefore possibly players like Betancourt. Regardless of whether you think that Gillick did more harm than good for the Mariners, it is fact that he did good things for the M’s.
I can’t wait to see us sign Ron Villone to be our 4th starter.
I’m really starting to think there should be some required reading in the post archives and perhaps a quiz based on it before posting privileges are granted.
Or at least an agreement to not take potshots at the site authors until you’ve taken the time to review some previous discussions.
I’m not taking potshots at the author (and I think you directed that comment at Wishhiker anyway, though I don’t think it was necessarily deserved).
But in regards to Gillick…I just went thru Dave’s Future Forty, using the 2005 Ms media guide (I left my 2006 guide at work). There were 8 players in the forty that I couldn’t find in the 2005 guide, so I can only assume they’ve been acquired in Bavasi’s tenure at some point this past year. So I’ll credit those to Bavasi.
Doing so results in 17 of the future forty credited solidly to Gillick, and 23 to Bavasi. Of the 23 credited to Bavasi, some are arguably still a result of Gillick in the form of Bob Engle – who signed Betancourt, for example. Of the 17 credited to Gillick, we have Felix, Jose Lopez, Adam Jones, Chris Snelling, Eric O’Flaherty, Emiliano Fruto and Rene Rivera. That’s 7 out of the 9 in the top category.
I don’t think Gillick was god. I also don’t think he left the Ms organization in as bad shape as Dave implies. I think there’s a lot of middle ground between the two. And I think if every poster just agreed with the site authors all the time, we’d have some pretty dull discussions.
And I quote:
“I used facts to make my point. You tell a good story, but it’s all broad strokes, metaphor, inuendo and opinion.”
And IN THIS THREAD, how is that comment wrong?
Look, I adore Dave and mostly agree with him (though I even more often agree with DMZ and though clearly, I disagree with Dave on his depth of feeling about Gillick), but man…there’s a poll asking whether people want the authors to correct spelling and/or grammatical errors and half the respondents are saying no.
You on the other hand seem to think it should be a requirement to read any/all posts ever made on a topic prior to commenting. I guess that speaks to the wide variety of posters here and their opinions. (and no, I’m not slamming you. I understand the desire to defend site authors and/or any poster that you perceive to be in your camp, totally).
I’d simply like to see people make an attempt to find out whether an author (or previous poster, but nobody’s ever gone after my posts the way they go after Dave’s or DMZ’s) has made a case for having a viewpoint before asserting, particularly in a snide manner, that the author has no reasoned basis for holding an opinion.
Just as you seem to be claiming it’s unfair to expect posters “to read any/all posts ever made on a topic prior to commenting” (which is pretty hyperbolic and not my position at all, but that’s neither here nor there), it’s unfair to expect the authors to explain at great length their reasons for having a particular viewpoint every time they post it, regardless of how many times they’ve explained it before.
It’s like the thread about Princess Willie; certain posters were SO DETERMINED TO PROVE that poor Willie was being picked on just because the authors hold an irrational hatred for him with no basis in fact that an entire new post was required to explain, for about the 40th time (there’s my hyperbole!), why some of us feel the way we do about Bloomquist and how he’s used by the team.
Five minutes searching the site archives would’ve given anyone who took the time a pretty good summary of past discussions here about Willie, or about Gillick for that matter.
I’d like to see people be courteous enough to the entire community of the site to take the time to make that effort, rather than just posting from the hip and continuing to lower the signal-to-noise ratio here.
local “white” kid? Can you explain what color has to do with this?
I actually googled it via the search feature for about 45 min. and couldn’t find any specifically related postings by Dave. I did read a few postings which had valid points for either side and even though there are valid points I don’t agree exclusively with all the arguments that had good points. I personally blame Mattox and Pitcher fizzle for the lack of depth in the minors of recent years. I have seen in the past that people will point links to discussions long past that pertained to a present discussion and I blame no one for that not happening in this situation. I would not be surprised to find out that a few people googled it to put up a link and couldn’t find it themselves.
I realised my err in not saying “in this case” when I made the “you tell a good story” comment, but had I said that I’d stand behind the statement entirely. I believe that Dave has a lot of knowledge about baseball and specifically the M’s. He makes a lot of good points and has enlightened me a few times with information and theory. However anyone else who makes an argument that is not stat-based is shunned and told to use facts and check thier math, usually by multiple posters.
I do not have time to read the entire server archive and unless it is listed as required reading I cannot be expected to know all of what has been posted previously. Even if something has been posted previously and I read it, that does not mean I haveto agree with it.
local “white” kid? Can you explain what color has to do with this?
I think the point was that it shouldn’t have any relevance, but it does (or is believed to).
Considering the stars that have been embraced by Mariners fans over the years, I’m not too sure that the majority of the fans need a local “white” kid. That said, I’m sure there is a section that does. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that group marketed to, so to speak.
I guess I can see it both ways.
I said he showed no reasoned basis, not had no reasoned basis. If anyone could spend 5 minutes googling it wouldn’t it have taken less time to just show a link than write the story he did? Since I don’t know what the post was called and have no memory of any particuliar phrases that were posted I have no idea how to attempt to isolate a discussion I was not involved in while searching the archives. Anyone who does have a recollection is welcome to look for it for me, but after my fruitless forty minutes of search I’m of the opinion that it’s not my responsibility to know someone’s said something before.
“he’s a douchebag who deserves every ounce of criticism that could be leveled at him”?
Who started the snide. If you are an advocate for something and this is the reaction you get back…I think my comment was pretty straight forward and non-offensive in comparison.
76, try this link
http://ussmariner.com/index.php?p=1971
Any idiot can luck into building a winning team. Pointing out the winning seasons (with Unit, Junior, A-Rod, Edgar, Bone et al .in tow, not that they had anything to do with all that winning) to justify Gillick’s decision making… is like saying a pitcher’s good because he won 20 games last year.
It would sort of be fair to say “well, you’re overrating how bad Gillick was”, were it not for the fact that that last two places he left (Toronto and Baltimore) ALSO have done absolutely nothing since he left.
In fact, Seattle is looking to be Baltimore or Toronto West: great new stadium, plenty of financial resources, ineffective ownership, field management and GMs spending years floundering while the franchise implodes. It’s sort of understandable to see Gillick bail on that,but it doesn’t make him a sympathetic character, in my view.
Of course, a fair-minded person would also have to say that the last two places he left (Toronto and Baltimore) both won while he was there.
Any idiot may be able to luck into building a winning team, but this “idiot” has already done that three times.
I vote for winning and maintained franchise.
He mortgaged all those franchises’ futures to win for a few years in the present. Look how they ended up.
I’m sure he’ll do the same for the Phillies. Few good years, and then watch the org go belly up once he disappears.
He won for more than “a few years” in Toronto. Five division titles and two World Series for a franchise that had no record of success in the past (for obvious reasons).
He won in Baltimore for an owner who managed to not meddle in baseball for that blissful three-year period. The Orioles lost after he left not, IMO, because he left the cupboad bare, but because Peter Angelos decided that his departure meant that Angelos should take more control over player personnel decisions.
No one’s calling Gillick an idiot – just a self serving prick.
There are GM’s that don’t fall into that category?
Yes.
“Any idiot can luck into building a winning team.”
Should I be waiting for Bavasi to become an idiot, or get some luck?…
Gomez…should you give the credit to someone else just because people have an irrational belief?…wtf are you saying. Who else would be responsible for your team construction? BTW Gillick never had Unit, came in just in time to trade Junior away, had A-rod one season, lost him and the same season lost Bone to injury most of the season before he retired. So that leaves Edgar that he inherited of the players you mention to win 116 games. Buhner had an effect on about a dozen games that season. If you want to fault Gillick for something involving these names it should be not getting value in a trade for A-Rod. Then again how could he know Alex wouldn’t re-sign.
Corcoran…I spent an hour and 1/2 reading the link and read nothing that disproves anything I said about Gillick. Mostly the post is about Bavasi being Gillicks puppet and whether or not Bavasi is a good GM. In one point made of why it’s better to have stars and scrubs than “25 Honda Civics” (which is a really bad way to put it)
“*The scrubs can overperform their baseline projections.* John Olerud and Raul Ibanez are NOT going to overperform — but you budget Jeremy Reed and Jose Lopez and Bobby Madritsch and Bucky Jacobsen for modest performances — as a group you have every chance of them doing something nice.”
Well lets see how many of those have “overperformed”…You know, the only one of those names that’s played above and beyond anyone’s expectations is Ibanez.
“Gillick masked the poor-percentage-play facet of “25 Honda Civics” with an incredible run of hits on Rhodeses and Boones and Ichiros and Seles and Abbotts and McLemores and etc and etc — Gillick built that 116-win team *out of players rejected by other teams.*”
First, that’s just asinine, he got a high percentage play from this and how anyone can saw it was a mirage is beyond logic. If you win you win, it happenned and you’re fooling nobody by accepting the credit. *Rejected by other teams* means that he saw something others didn’t, this looks like a compliment to me. Secondly, this is the same poster as the previous comment that said these midrange players don’t overperform, just before they disproved it themself (Rhodes, Boone, etc.)…Saying Gillick didn’t perform at a higher level is like saying these players didn’t.
Why are you arguing here with some random commenter from the old thread?
Seriously. If you want to tell Corco you didn’t like his like, I get it, but you’re pulling stupid examples/thoughts by some random moron and using them as evidence of…. what?
I don’t get it.
Gillick is not responsible for Bavasi’s failings following him, nor his replacements anywhere he went. Gillick ran off an 11 year winning streak in Toronto and I call that sustained winning. We’re talking about 2000 games they won under him. That’s not a “good-for-a-couple-then-rebuild” stretch. 11 years he maintained the winning in Toronto. Obviously he knew how to keep the talent coming in even with his wierd draft ideas. He had his own draft expert in Toronto and was stuck with Mattox here.
Also from the link:
Very rarely does a GM have such a clean slate to deal with. Bavasi basically has a club that is at rock bottom:
-only 10 players signed to contracts
-no locks to return in the coaching staff
-a $95 million payroll
-tons of financial flexibility in an offseason with good depth of talent in free agency
-another $25 million coming off the books after 2005
I was giventhe link to research why my comments regarding Bavasi have already been disputed…If it can be used to dispute my comments why can I not comment to dispute it?
Also, no one’s arguing that Pat Gillick wasn’t a good GM 15 years ago in Toronto.
You’re beating a bunch of strawmen.
I searched through a 2 year old posting for an hour and a half because people think I should know what someone said 2 years ago, so if I haveto read it I’m damn well going to comment on it. These were the only things related to Gillick as a GM in the Posting I was referred to, so this is what I responded to.
Here’s the thing. Corco offered you a post, by Dave, on the transition from Gillick to Bavasi, and how Gillick left Bavasi holding the bag.
Now you’re arguing, here, with *commentors* in that thread who don’t have any idea what they’re talking about and were, even at the time, off their rocker.
I’m reasonably sure, as you should be, that Corco didn’t offer that post in the sense that you should read every comment and cross-apply them to the current discussion.
It’s like… if I said “hey, check out what we said about the Sexson signing at the time” as part of a discussion of back-loading contracts, and everyone decided that because commenter #121 thought that it was a great contract that we thought it was a great contract and you started ragging on us, now, for what commenter 121 thought then.
It’s pointless. It’s confusing. There’s no reason to do it.
Also, if I may — if you’re spending an hour and half trying to figure out why someone pointed you somewhere, that’s too long. Maybe they pointed you in the wrong direction. There’s no need to stare at the fireplace until meaning strikes you.
Gomez said:”he mortgaged all those franchises futures to win for a few years in the present”
Not Straw men…I was responding to Gomez
DMZ have you read all of this post, because I think the entire discussion and therefore explanation as to why I’m reading old posts and why I’m responding to them is encapsulated above…
No! I haven’t! That’s the problem here! Thanks, Wishhiker! Your insight has suddenly caused me to realize that I haven’t, indeed, read the discussion at all! What was I thinking? I’ll go back and do that immediately.
I’m supposed to know why Dave thinks Gillick burnt down buildings behind his mirage of a beautiful Seattle and ran out of town before anyone realised he’d destroyed the city. Dave didn’t feel the need to back his story with any facts, I called him on it, people said I should know what his opinion is and why, I said give me a link…
I was serious DMZ…why do you feel that I deserve hostility and sarcasm?
Sorry, can’t respond, I’m taking 1.5h to re-read this post.
Wow…Cameron doesn’t feel the need to back his stories with facts and Derek feels that hostility and sarcasm are a good way to communicate. I thought this was a great site for information and communication of all things baseball when I stumbled into it a couple years back, but I didn’t think at that time that some of the authors were acting like pompous, self-righteous children.
I had a Ford Tempo (87 GL, the one year/model that was actually a very good car). I took care of it religiously, for the first couple of years, and it drove great. Got to college and, well, not so much. (Though, to be fair, I did change the oil once between the 60k and 80k services.)
Amazingly, the thing drove great, despite the abuse, and I even took a celebratory picture (while drving) when it cracked 100k miles. (116 wins !!!)
It dropped dead at 102, leaving me to walk 3 miles every day to the bus in the dead of winter.
It’s your site and if you’re going to treat people like this I don’t want to be here…
It seems to me that you are acting like an ass towards me in a dirty attempt to get me to stoop to your level and say something of the like so that you can feel justified in deleting me. Why don’t you save everyone the hot air, be a complete asshole and just delete me, I have other email addresses and you won’t even know it’s me
10,000 extra miles works out to about 400 extra miles per week. I don’t know how fast an airplane flies, but I would say the extra 1 hour per week on the plane is pretty close. (MLB teams play two series per week. that’s two flights a week on the road, zero when at home. Season is 26 weeks long, so I simplified by dividing by 25.)
Right now the biggest problem seems to be the rehiring of Hargrove and Lincoln’s “Hot seat” statement. It gives the impression of a team in transition, not a team that will be competing for a ring anytime soon.
Still, money is more important than perception to free agents. Bavasi seems to be in an impossible situation this winter. His need for pitching is much higher than his budget constraints.
Totally Vidya…It’s unrealistic to see Bavasi pull out a good team next year without trading away a good chunk of the farm. Hopefully a part of being in the hotseat is that he can’t reach into the farm. I’d like to see a good deal done for Jason Jennings, but I don’t trust the present FO to distinguish between good deal and bad.
Wishhiker – look at the starting roster and payroll breakdown of the 2004 Mariners. That (sans Jolbert Cabrera) was the legacy Gillick left us.
I’m intrigued and would like to know more about this Gillick fellow and the apparent horrors he inflicted on my favorite team, the Seattle Mariners. Apparently, some of the authors on this site have previously critiqued Mr. Gillick’s performance in some detail. But, gosh, this post is really about Adam Eaton’s contract. Maybe instead of calling attention to myself and repeatedly posting comments asking why no one has answered my curiosity in the amount of detail I demand, I will follow the friendly suggestion in the comment guidelines and send an email to ussmariner@gmail.com. That nice David Cameron has always answered the questions in my emails promptly and politely in the past.
Uhm…the title of this post Is
“PAT GILLICK, MARINERS SAVIOUR”
leads me to believe it has something to do with Pat Gillick. That and the comment that led me to respond “So, thank you Pat Gillick. It’s about time you did something to help the Mariners”
Grizz it was not my idea that I should know what he previously posted.
I asked that if other posters thought I should know what he posted, maybe they could supply a link.
When I respond to something someone else says and there is response back and I respond to that it is not me posting off topic. I asked for Daves explanation in stats and facts, which is a perfectly reasonable response that I’ve seen posted 100’s of times BY THE AUTHORS and others. I was asked by other posters to know from his previous breakdowns why he believes what he does. I find that response absolutely unreasonable. I am willing to read previous posts, but having spent 40 minutes searching the archives myself and 1.5hrs reading a post I was linked to that had little to do with the topic I think it’s not my responsibility to know. My points which related to the discussion have not been disputed in much of any way and I take pride in that.
Gillick did indeed do good things for the Mariners!
I do not deny the success of the Blue Jays in the early 90’s. For a while, Gillick was likely on the right track philosophically.
But again, Gillick’s rep is not about the early 90’s, but about his entire career past and present. Look at how he left the Mariners and the Orioles. After that glory with the Jays, he built teams in BAL and SEA to win in the present, to hell with the future, and took off before he had his chance to pay the piper for a myopic approach to roster building.
Filibuster all your want, Wishhiker, but it happened, and his two world titles were 15 years ago.
Gillick launched the Mariners international scouting into elite status while watching the good pitching prospects the team had on the farm crumble to injury and ineffectiveness. He had little control over the draft until his final year as GM. With all the talk of him trying to get rid of first round picks they had first round picks every year he was here except his first, which he used wisely to fill multiple needs and lose the first 3 rounds rather than filling one each year and losing first rounders for each. The fact that Bavasi’s teams have done poorly enough that they get better first round picks is not a plus for Bavasi.
116 wins was 5 years ago
Is there a -reason- all our pitchers got injured? If Gillick was so good at seeing the innate talent of players that he can turn everyone’s castoffs (included noted losers Ichiro, Olerud, and Edgar), why the hell didn’t he trade Nageotte? Why dump Guillen? Why all these things? Why Cirillo? Why did nothing of note come out of our farm system between Raul Ibanez and… I don’t know, Jose Lopez?
You can praise Gillick all you want, but he did the organisation a lot more harm than good, and ran away just as the house was about to fall down.
I also disagree with you about first rounders, but hey, I’ll save that for later.
Now you’re just making stuff up, Wish. Gillick had little control over the draft until his last year? Why would you believe that?
The Orioles are not a crappy organization because of who Pat Gillick left in the lineup. They are crappy because he left, and because Angelos felt free to meddle with the new regime. Hence the one-year Frank Wren era and the chaos that followed.
The philosophy you speak of is exactly what Lou Piniella wanted. Matter of fact I wouldn’t be sure if “SEA to win in the present, to hell with the future, and took off before he had his chance to pay the piper for a myopic approach to roster building.” was about Lou or Pat without context. I believe that it was largely Piniella’s approval that brought in Gillick and built the roster during the stretch of history you speak of. They did well until Piniella left.
He wasn’t even allowed to choose his own guy and Gillicks drafts with people he brings in look alot better than the first 3 of 4 he supposedly presided over here. I agree I’m speculating here, but it’s not baseless.
Uhm…the title of this post Is “PAT GILLICK, MARINERS SAVIOUR”
“Of Mice and Men” is not really about rodents.
I agree I’m speculating here, but it’s not baseless.
Yes it is. It’s just not true.
Uhm…I just gave you my base and then you told me it was baseless.
I have looked over Mattox’s drafts from 1998-2003 and Drafts under Gillick with different Scouting Directors in Baltimore and Toronto and the Mariners drafts from 2000-2002 look more like Mattox’s horrible drafts of 1998 and 1999 than any presided over elsewhere by Gillick. That is true, is the recent basis for my opinion and was only researched by me because an informed individual pointed out the whispers of it in our conversation. I recently read more talk of Mattox’s responsibility on Mariners Revolution.
They brought in Bavasi to oversee the Minor League aspects of the team and let Gillick continue (with dissention from Bavasi) on Major league roster acquisition. The same happenned on the other end with Mattox having more MiL control than Gillick, the difference is that Mattox had no say at all on the Major league level and that worked better.
Regardless this is more in depth than it needs to be…Gillick wasn’t all bad for the M’s is all I was saying.
Let’s look at our drafts from 1999-2003.
I’ll go through and pick the players the team signed who have done anything interesting (i.e. not Rich Harden).
1999
Bloomquist, Nageotte, Putz, Sledge, Leone.
If someone tells me that they could tell that Putz would somehow develop the splitter from hell in 2006 from what he looked like in 1999, I’ll laugh at them. I like Sledge, but he wasn’t an M very long. 4 fringe players and one really good closer. Mmkay.
2000
Strong, Bubela, Ambres.
I really don’t know what to say. So I won’t.
2001
Michael Garciparra. Rene Rivera.
That’s a draft? And nobody’s killed themselves over it?
2002
Bohn, Lahair.
????….????…
2003
Jones, Feierabend.
Out of 5 years of drafting, we got: One top prospect, one closer essentially obtained by random chance, and a whole lot of mediocrity.
That’s some good drafting.
Exactly my point except you missed 1998
Matt Thornton, Scott Atchison
Thank you Frank Mattox
So… why was he still the scouting director?
Armstrong?
I just gave you my base and then you told me it was baseless.
Your base is created in your mind. There’s no evidence of anything there – it’s just “those drafts sucked, I bet that Gillick didn’t have control then.”
I recently read more talk of Mattox’s responsibility on Mariners Revolution.
There are good sources of information in the world, and then there are blogs like that.
They brought in Bavasi to oversee the Minor League aspects of the team and let Gillick continue (with dissention from Bavasi) on Major league roster acquisition.
That’s not true.
The same happenned on the other end with Mattox having more MiL control than Gillick, the difference is that Mattox had no say at all on the Major league level and that worked better.
That’s not true either.
Regardless this is more in depth than it needs to be…Gillick wasn’t all bad for the M’s is all I was saying.
No one’s saying he was all bad.
This sounds like it may come from the root of this teams inability to admit it’s mistakes and move on so I’d say somewhere between Armstrong and Lincoln, but that’s a guess.
Funny, isn’t it, that Bill Bavasi brought in Bob Fontaine to run his drafts for him to replace Frank Mattox. It’s almost as if he thought it was an important way to bring talent into his team, and he thought it important to put a guy with a proven track record there.
Whereas Pat Gillick left Frank Mattox there- almost as if he didn’t give a crap who got drafted during his tenure as GM.
Huh, go figure, people critiqued Gillick on that and the unproductivity of the farm system (exactly ZERO Mariner regular position players from the minors between A-Rod and Jose Lopez). I can’t imagine why, or why it would be related to an old Mariners team collapsing in 2004 and not getting back up afterwards.
It’s from the header of the Post I was sent back to that DAVE wrote that I got the information that Bavasi started out as Gillick puppet, so if it’s not true could you explain why you’ve changed your mind?
“No one’s saying he was all bad.”
Then I proved my point, because it started with:
“So, thank you Pat Gillick. It’s about time you did something to help the Mariners”
Which does not say exclusively, although it alludes to, Gillick not doing anything good for the Mariners. It’s possible that by “it’s about time” you meant something along the lines of “it’s been years since” however that’s far from a standard translation of the phrase.
I don’t see how someone as intelligent as you could have meant anything but “Thanks Gillick, this is the first thing you’ve ever done to help the Mariners.” That is simply the most direct translation for the paragraph.
You’re a very silly person, and we’re going to stop trying to reason with you now.
Bavasi started out as Gillick puppet, so if it’s not true could you explain why you’ve changed your mind?
I haven’t changed my mind. There’s a huge difference between what I wrote and what you wrote.
Which does not say exclusively, although it alludes to, Gillick not doing anything good for the Mariners.
No, it doesn’t. That’s a lousy interpretation of a statement obviously dripping in hyperbole. You’re the only one who took it that way.
*head in hands guy*