Thursday’s fun
Freddy Garcia traded to Philadelphia for Floyd and Gio Gonzalez.
Gil Meche, the pitching coach’s dream, signs with THE ROYALS for 5/$55. Supposedly. So Jason Schmidt gets 3/$47 and Meche 5/$55. I’m going to make a wild guess and bet Schmidt returns more on that investment than Meche does.
The last three years, the Royals have only seen him four times, and Meche’s line has been decent but not superficially stellar: 5.73 ERA, 2-1, 22 IP, 26 H, 2 HR, 8 BB, 15K. I… they’re the Royals. Whaddayagonnado.
Lilly to Cubs.
Pettite’s going to pitch somewhere.
Luis Gonzalez got $7m to play for the Dodgers.
“There’s probably [only] a handful of guys in baseball who permeate the clubhouse like he did with us,” Diamondbacks manager Bob Melvin told the Arizona Republic before Gonzalez signed with the Dodgers.
That’s an interesting choice of words.
Rule 5 (5! It’s 5!) draft was today. 19 players picked. Baseball America has a ridiculous amount of coverage including the wrap-up a blog and other good stuff.
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I dont really want to talk about this becuase I am still getting over those two boned heade trade bill made sorry.
woah, Looie, light a match.
well, you know, Freddy Garcia is a “veteran workhorse”
and this nugget: “With Rafael Soriano filling the Braves’ need for a setup man, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution believes talks with the Angels regarding a swap of Adam LaRoche for Chone Figgins and Casey Kotchman could be revisited.”
So if you don’t want to talk about it, why post?
Meanwhile, that sort of price for Freddy gives rise to the thought that it could always be worse. I was happy to see the back of Gillick in Seattle, but I’d far rather have Seattle Gillick than Philadelphia Gillick. At least in Seattle, as in Toronto and Baltimore, he managed to produce a winning team before wandering off with the cupboard bare; in Philadelphia, it’s really starting to look like he’ll wreck the foundation without ever putting up the building.
From espn.com: “The Gil Meche sweepstakes are over, and the Kansas City Royals are the winners.”
Winners???
My view: No one can, with integrity, defend Bavasi as a competent GM ever again. He has proven too many times that he simply does not understand how to build a competitive team.
Exhibit A: Trade of Carlos Guillen
Exhibit B: Signing of the SandFrog/Reese/Washburn
Exhibit C: Signing of Sexson (I will give a pass on Beltre)
Exhibit D: Trade of Soriano
Exhibit E: [Insert next move here]
Any chance the M’s make a play for Brad Penny?
Well………..I guess we can all agree that this is one time we all wished Bavasi has just stood pat and NOT made a move.
Unfortunately, he pulled the trigger on a terrible trade and got fleeced. Inexcusable and unexplainable.
I guess the good part is that we kept Putz….but who is our primary setup man now with Lowe on the shelf? Mateo? Huber?
Not only does Bavasi get fleeced, but now it looks like it could trigger the Braves to have the pieces to now deal LaRoche to our division rival Angels? Brilliant! Way to go Bill.
ESPN’s Steve Phillips is now reporting that Meche’s deal with the Royals is a five-year deal. Gosh, I really wish the M’s were in on that bonanza…
I’m sure that Gil is glad the Royals offered the most money and longest deal because he’d probably rather pitch there instead of the pressure of having to pitch for a team that might end up in a pennant race…
Regarding the above comment…..not only were the Royals “winners” but it was a “sweepstakes?”
At times, I am convinced that Bill Bavasi is still working for the Angels. With the way we pick up Angel cast-offs and now seem to want to help them complete their offseason moves, it just gets uglier. Sure it’s not actually true, but this offseason is a real drag. Only consolation, Bill’s head my roll earlier than expected if we have nothing to show for all the talk of improving our pitching.
Now that our supposedly “deep” bullpen has been eviscerated (no Soriano, no Lowe), maybe Bavasi will jump into the Eric Gagne bidding.
Is Lowe done?
If Meche was the 1st prize in the “sweepstakes” I would hate to know what 2nd price was.
Oh wait, it was swapping Soriano for Ramirez.
My $500 wager is that, over the course of their careers, Soriano the reliever/closer throws more innings than Ramirez the starter. Should be easy. Soriano only needs to average 50 IP over the next four years. The Ms will be lucky if Ramirez hits 125 IP next year before he breaks down or gets sent to the pen to become the second-best LOOGY behind Sherrill.
My kicker on the bet is that Soriano, as a reliever, rings up more Ks than Ramirez next year.
Gil must really like BBQ.
sigh, Jerry Crasnick sums it up.
“The initial reaction to the Rafael Soriano-Horacio Ramirez trade is that Atlanta got the better of its deal with Seattle. Ramirez, while 30-22 in four seasons with the Braves, is injury prone and about to make $3 million-plus next season. While Soriano has to come back from a line drive off the head, he showed a big-time arm in Seattle and has serious closer potential”
Trading Sexson to free up cash and then overpaying for Zito seems to be the only real possible consolation prize the M’s have left. Considering Bonehead Bill would probably get a 26 year old AA “prospect” in return for Sexson, that scenario really isn’t much of a consolation.
This…I…we…#%*&^@*Q(Bavasi&%*@(@)@_!(&$%&^Mariners!$?@?!
12-Looks like it. Jeff at Lookout Landing did a nice overview of the injury type a month or so ago. I can sum it up, his chance of a decent career is about as good as Bavasi extracting his head from his (naughty word) this week.
15 – That’s Crasnick being nice…
#16– and as the Mets ans Texas are also likely to overpay for Zito, what are the odds he picks Seattle to land?
Now that the deal from hell is official, I don’t know what to think.
Hopefully Bavasi starts landing guys like Thomson and Floyd so he doesn’t hamstring the next GM for 2008.
Unless we trade Broussard, what place could Floyd possibly have? And what about Doyle? If we don’t get a TOR, we may as well have kept Soriano. What good is filling the 4-5 slots in the rotation and giving up a REAL pitcher if we don’t get some sort of ace to compliment Ramirez/Baek and-or Woods?
Maybe if Bill had more hair to pull out he’d have realized sooner how stupid his moves really are.
#20- Bavasi said that the longer the Zito bidding drags on, the less inclined Seattle will be to take a run at him.
just a reminder, trades don’t have to happen by the end of the winter meetings. There is plenty of time to move Broussard or others.
#23– well, yeah. Not to mention that no one thinks Zito has any real interest in anyplace but NY.
From si.com’s John Heyman:
Lol. This one actually made me chuckle. I just envision Bavasi walking through the lobby, all the other GMs watching him walk by, and covering their mouths to stifle the laughter…
#23: And Bavasi’s reasoning is that waiting for Zito would prevent Seattle from making all these other great moves they have planned in order to improve the team this winter.
Bavasi. Please, just quick while you are behind. Please don’t ruin the M’s any more. Stay out of the trade market and just pick up some cheap one year fillers so our next GM can turn things around mid-season next year when you are fired.
#14: Really loves BBQ, really hates pitching in meaningful games. Perfect.
#5: Add to your impressive list some of the moves NOT made: hanging on to Boone, Olerud, etc until they had no value and had to be DFA’d, all of the “prospects” they made “untouchable,” refused to trade, and then watched break down. Now the inflated market for Meche this offseason suggests the M’s might have been able to get more than a bag of baseballs for him at the deadline.
I’m not letting Bavasi out of the fire — he is a clown — but he obvioulsy works for the Ringling Bros., Barnum & Bailey. We read every day about another philosophy of ownership, which everybody on this board knows will undermine efforts to win. Sometimes I think they would actually rather lose on their terms (with a buncha Local White Guys, say) than win on anyone else’s. BTW, ownership’s LWG fixation made them the most obvious stalking horses ever in the Schmidt negotiations. Twice. What frustrates me about WFB and Sexson is that they PLAY the way ownership manages.
Even Bavasi’s position this off-season — as a win-or-get-lost short-timer — must undermine his ability to get deals done. Again, not to take him off the hook, just to call out the ownership once more for meddling and for terrible decisions in re Bavasi and Hargrove. This is a slow motion train wreck that could have been avoided so many ways.
Sweepstakes….Winner..Meche. Wow.
The Jays are close to signing fellow Canadian Matt Stairs to sit on the bench. I sure hope that I dont see headlines with the words “sweepstakes, or winner” in any publication.
Anyone have an idea of what Ramirez would have fetched this year had he been a free agent?
I wonder if everyone at the winter meetings snickers when Bavasi walks by?
#29: Injury prone young pitcher, coming off an injury.
Sounds about like Eaton type money.
#24- And just general common sense: WHY would Zito pick Seattle?
#26- I have a bad feeling in my gut that Bavasi, in a futile attempt to save his job, will in fact ruin the M’s even more. As long as he doesn’t deal Clement and/or Jones… Ugh, that feeling in my gut just got worse.
#30: I think every GM at the winter meeting is running toward Bavasi to make sure he has their up-to-date direct line phone number just in case he wants to make any other deals.
Then they snicker as he walks away with their VIP business card in his hand.
Can’t believe even Gil Meche would want to play for KC. How much more money could they have offered than Toronto? Who would willingly play for the Royals when there’s interest with contending teams? I know it’s mostly about the money but wow, I guess Gil is even more comfortable with losing than we knew. That’s pathetic.
Bavasi says that he’ll make us better right away. Well, I feel better, but then he said that about C Rex and Washburn. Bet his phone is ringing off the hook now.
Oh well, it is Pearl Harbor day, somehow the timing of all this is just right…
From BP,
Yeah we got screwed. We get it.
#25 – like the lobby scene in Jerry Maguire after he sends out the “mission statement” and gets a standing ovation from the other agents.
My sentiments for Bavasi fit those of the two agents at the end of that scene for Jerry – (to paraphrase) “How long do you give him?” “Mmm. Until June.”
I thought Bavasi was trying to keep his job this winter? Is there any possible plan of action he has here? I’m not saying it would have been the greatest move, but if he signs Schmidt for 3 and $47-50M, or hell, give him four years, then all the Seattle media and casual fans are hyped about the move and the season.
#34 – He’ll be a lot closer to home in KC than Toronto, which may count for something for a mild-mannered country boy from Louisiana. Add that to more money or an additional year guaranteed, and maybe there’s a thought process in there somewhere.
Well in the release on the seattlemariners.com site Bill states he wants one more pitcher, even after we snagged the Richtlinie Fünf guy.
That Meche deal is staggering. First, who would pay Meche $45 million, and why would Meche think that extra $5 million was worth a guaranteed 15 loss season due to the lousy run support?
Going into the offeseason, I was expecting Ramirez to get non-tendered by the Braves. Apparently he’s healthy now, but $3 million+ seems like a lot for that guy. Especially when you consider that Rodrigo Lopez would’ve costed $4 million (plus Broussard).
Makes you wonder if Pineiro is “worth” $6 million.
40-Or Lex Legis V
#39: I’m not going to blame Bavasi for not signing Schmidt to a deal. Schmidt has done nothing but use Seattle to get better deals elsewhere each of his last two free agent years. He doesn’t want to pitch in Seattle.
However, missing out on Schmidt again, does not justify going out and getting yourself fleeced, by trading your best asset for a back end starter.
Well we have him now so lets all hope that a miracle happens and he wakes up one morning with über good stuff.
#40: Hello! John Thomson! Let’s pack that rotation with #4 and #5 starters. Yahooooooo!
Of course, now Bill will probably go out and overpay for a veteran right handed set-up pitcher to replace Soriano.
So now that we have this “extra cash” I say Atlanta returns us a favor and gives us LaRoche and Hudson for Sexson and cash.
What’s the fascination with Gavin Floyd? Just by looking at his numbers, it’s tough to see much to like about him. In 282 IP at AAA, he’s got about 6.4 K/9, 3.6 BB/9, and 0.77 HR/9. That might look like a decent HR rate, until you realize that the average for the International League is 0.76 HR/9. He seems to have a 40%-41% GB%, too, so it seems like we would expect him to have an average or so HR rate.
And while he hasn’t pitched enough in the majors to draw many conclusions, it seems more or less consistent with his numbers in the minors, and PECOTA was pretty close on his peripherals this year.
So Floyd doesn’t really miss bats, he doesn’t induce a lot of ground balls, and he doesn’t keep the ball in the strike zone very well. That sounds like a bad pitcher to me.
Floyd’s a big time underachiever. He used to throw 97 with a hammer curve, and had stuff that was routinely compared to Ben Sheets. But he’s never worked very hard to improve and he has no idea how to pitch. Now he’s 92-94 with an average curve.
He’s basically the Phillies version of Gil Meche. Which, I guess means in a few years that he’s going to be a very, very rich man.
Saying Soriano is our best asset is insane. The guy is great as a reliever. Everyone agrees. But, doesn’t everyone on this site talk about how easy it is to find relievers on the cheap?
Another that really vexes me is something that Dave said last night, which is that Soriano is a better starter than Ramirez. Really? How could you possibly know that? The Mariners obviously were never going to use Soriano in a starting role (they’ve had opportunity after opportunity to give him a shot), but kept him in the bullpen. Do you think maybe there’s a reason for this? That the coaching and medical staff who work with him every day can see that his arm is too frail to throw 100 pitches every five days.
Ramirez is okay. But he’s cheap and under club control for a while. If he were on the open market, he’d fetch 7-8 mill. This is a move born out of necessity. We need five starters. I’m not going to go ballistic over losing a guy who, at best, was going to give 80-90 innings and, at worst, would be injured most of the year. It’s not the end of the world, and it’s not close to the multitude of other horrendous moves made by other GMs this offseason.
#48 — Correct, that sounds like a Mariners pitcher to me.
But the WhiteSox got back Gio Gonzalez as well. Is his 7W-12L, 4.66ERA, 1.429 WHIP in AA something to get excited about? Haha
#50 – That’s not really the point, the point is that Soriano should have fetched a little more than a Horacio Ramirez, or at least have been part of a bigger package deal.
#50: He was our best “tradeable” asset this winter, because he was expendable and could bring great value in return (ie. see what other top setup guys/possible closers were brining in return). The problem which you are failing to see is that Soriano would have / could have give the 2007 Mariners 80-90 HIGH LEVERAGE innings, where as, Ramirez will give the M’s 180 or so league average innings in the rotation. The M’s could have picked up a Horicio Ramirez off the scrap heap for nothing more than a cheap contract and still maintained Soriano value to be traded in a deal that actually brought back value.
Obviously, most would say Felix is our teams best “asset” but he’s not going to get traded and shouldn’t.
There is nothing wrong with trading high value assets like Soriano, the problem comes from when you trade a high value asset and get a marginal value asset in return.
and that’s “league average” innings from Ramirez, if we are lucky.
If the Braves were willing to trade LaRoche for Gonzalez, certainly Soriano should have been worth more than he ended up being.
Over the last couple of days, I have read a lot of posts and rumors about Sexson getting moved. No one seems to really care. ESPN treated his name as a “salary dump”, he has been linked to rumors of Brad Penny, Rodrigo Lopez, and Carl Pavano.
Sexson scored points. A lot of them. Last year he was in a slump for the first half of the season, he still puts over 180 points on the board. If he were a free agent and the M’s signed him for 2/28, I would be pumped. I do not want to see him dealt for a guy like Rodrigo Lopez, or any other average-at-best pitcher they just want to fill out the rotation with.
Mariners offense looks really good right now. As long as the soph slump doesn’t hit Yuniesky or Jose Lopez too hard, they could have the best offense in the division. They really aren’t that far off from competing. Obviously they need SP, but if Sexson isn’t landing a top half of the rotation kind of starter, keep him!
Soriano isn’t just a reliever, he’s one of the best relievers, who has awesome stuff, even if it hasn’t been quite where it was before the surgery, which was totally-mind-boggling awesome.
It’s easy to say you’d walk away from an extra $5 million on the only ubercontract you’ll likely see in your career.
It’s hard to do.
KC may well be competitive by year 3 of Meche’s contract. Moore’s a shrewd operator.
OTOH, Meche may well be out of the rotation by year 3 of his contract.
Good times.
Moore’s a shrewd operator.
That’s what I thought, too, but his early track record suggests otherwise: Meche for 4/50 is horrible, trading Burgos for Bannister is terrible.
Anyone notice that MLB.com has updated the Meche signing to 5/55 not 4/45.
Word is the Royals might release Runelvys Hernandez now that Meche has been signed for $55M(!!!!!). I always kind of liked him — cheap, insurance to pick up? He’s better than Baek/Green, no? And probably H. Ramirez, to boot.
Sexson scores so many points! He scored 180 points!
5/55 for Meche? What? Really?
Mein gott!
Runelvys (Don’t Walkelvys) has always been one of my favourites.
MarinerDan,
You have always liked a fat piece of crap with no talent?
You have always liked a fat piece of crap with no talent?
I said I kind of liked him. I admit he has been lit up the last two years, but he was decent the two years prior to that. Plus, he had decent numbers in the minors. I think he is probably as good a bet to provide league average innings in Safeco over the next 2 years as Horatio Ramirez is and he wouldn’t have cost us Soriano! Bavasi is a moron!
Since they aren’t going to wait out for Zito why not make him an offer of something like 6 years $80-90 million? I don’t like saying it but he is really our only choice to make our pitching staff any better. Plus if he doesn’t take let somebody else give him a 8 year $110 million dollar contract.
6 years of Zito? No thanks.
Ummmmmm….here’s a thought. If other GM’s knew Soriano was available…..and he’s as great as Seattle fans think he is……why didn’t some other GM overwhelm Bavasi with an offer?
Maybe, other GMs are worried about the knock in the noggin, or the soreness that shut him down in the last half of this season.
I don’t like the trade, but it’s not like Soriano doesn’t have concerns of his own.
Word has it Joel Piñeiro might end up coming back. Or we might end up with Miguel Batista as our big sign.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/295019_mbok07.html?source=mypi
I don’t think “black humor” quite describes my reaction at hearing that.
Losing both Meche and Lilly really puts a crunch on the market. Toronto might go after Zito now. Or really take a run at Clemens.
Though I expect Boston to get Clemens if they manage to move Manny.
I’d be hard pressed to tell you who has better upside between Horation Ramirez and Runelvys Hernandez. I guess I’ll go with Ramirez since he’s worth $3million and Rafael Soriano, and since Hernandez is worth maybe a $1 million non-guaranteed deal.
Personally, I love the mlb.com headline on the Meche deal “Royals land new ACE with five year pact”.
Batista wouldn’t be a bad choice. He’s a groundballer, and we have a good infield defense. He’s durable, and has a low HR%. I like Miguel Batista for the M’s.
Meche probably is the Ace on that staff. Remember, this team released their #2 starter last season (thus crippling my HACKING MASS team).
69
Given what I’ve seen so far this offseason, six years of Zito doesn’t sound THAT bad does it? We need a TOR starter or we get to start hearing about how 2008 will be full of great FA’s and the beat will continue to go on and on…
Maybe, other GMs are worried about the knock in the noggin, or the soreness that shut him down in the last half of this season.
But the point is that if all you can get for Soriano is a pile of crap, you are better off keeping him. It’s not like we HAD to trade him. That is why Bavasi’s decision is inexplicable.
It sounds to me like Texas and New York are already both willingly to do 6 and $90 on Zito. The winner is going to have to step up to 7 and $120 to get it done, I’m betting.
At this point, I’d do that for two reasons:
a) we’re going to spend that $15-16 million in 2006 and get crap if we don’t sign him
b) without him the team will be so bad in 2006 that the attendance, and subsequently the budget, will plummet. We could have the 2007 Mariners at $90 million budget with Zito, or we could have the 2007 at a $75 million budget and no Zito.
Honestly, without Zito, there will be zero reason to watch this team 4 out of every 5 days.
You know, I always felt a little sorry for KC and their fans. More so than I ever felt for Tampa Bay (which had no history, terrible ownership, and a stadium that made the Kingdome look like Safeco). But that’s over now. With deals like this, they deserve to sit at the bottom of the AL. Meche might be a good fit for them, as a rebuilding team with low expectations, but not for that kind of money. If they can waste cash like that they don’t get any sympathy from me when the Twins school them repeatedly on what actually wins ballgames.
Batista wouldn’t be a bad choice. He’s a groundballer, and we have a good infield defense. He’s durable, and has a low HR%. I like Miguel Batista for the M’s.
The problem is that you’ve basically suggested a starting staff of:
Felix
4 guys with 4.5 to 5.0 xFIPs
2 of those 4 guys (Washburn and Batista) are going to be making nearly 20 million a year between them through 2009.
No thanks. I’ll take John Thomson if we’re going to dumpster-dive.
79
Exactly. While I loathe to see us overpay for that many years, its not like we can trust Bavasi to do something BETTER with the money, can we?
its not like we can trust Bavasi to do something BETTER with the money, can we?
If the 2007 Mariners tank, Bavasi won’t be the GM in 2008. Why saddle the next GM with a boat anchor contract?
Personally, I think we’re being set up for a Bonds signing- if Bavasi can’t find good pitching, he’ll go for cheap mediocre pitching (Ramirez, Thomson) and find the “impact LH bat” everyone’s prattled about for years. This also has the advantage of being a one-year deal that won’t screw over the next GM.
Bavasi would never sign Bonds b/c of the bad public relations it would engender. Never in a million years.
#67 – I won’t argue about Bavasi, but in his defense Runelvys hasn’t been released AND nobody thought the Royals would seriously give that kind of money to anybody, let alone Gilbert.
Sure he’s an idiot (I am now on the bandwagon) but you can’t call him an idiot for moves that can’t be foreseen.
nah. Bonds wants 2/40M.
Personally, calling runs “points” is far more egregious than misspelling Piñeiro.
As opposed to the wonderful public relations vibe of the Mariner offseason moves of Jose Guillen, Horacio Ramirez for Rafael Soriano, and Miguel Batista or John Thomson?
Oh, and let’s not forget Sean White and Justin Lehr.
Bavasi has no chance of dressing up this offseason as anything other than bottom-feeding without a big signing. Miguel Batista ain’t it, and the only impact signing out there that isn’t going to carry a huge burden going forward would be Bonds.
Don’t get me wrong- I don’t like the idea myself. But the setup’s there.
One would have to think that if Zito went to the Jays and the rest of their starters stayed healthy, they would be contending again.
This would be in contradiction to JP saying he does not want to sign any pitchers to more than 4 year deals though, as Zito is looking for 5 or 6. They have money to spend, but i dont believe they have that kind of funding with the signings of Thomas and Zaun.
I’d give it to him.
If we signed Bonds, I think it would complete Bavasi’s secret dream of the Mariners becoming baseball’s bearded lady. I can see all the new TV ads now: We may not win, but come see Bonds go for the homerun record, watch our new RF throw temper tantrums, and watch the newest MLB craze: Willie Ballgame the starting pitcher! That is right, we gave your favorite Mariner a raise, but what other TOR starter makes so little?
#85 — I was calling him a moron because of the move he DID make, not the move he didn’t make. The point was, there was no need to make the move when there would be ample opportunity to make better (and less costly) moves down the road.
nah. Bonds wants 2/40M.
I don’t think so. I think he’s done once he hits 755.
“We were proud to be a part of the process and delighted that Gil Meche made the decision to join the Royals,” general manager Dayton Moore said. “He is an impact pitching talent who fits in with our plan for long term success. At 28, he is entering the prime of his career.”
Someday, that quote is going to be entered into the people’s case against the Royals.
#93. it is said that he has softened his demands, now only asking for “a one-year deal with a vesting option, based on easily reachable incentives that would be worth about $40 million over two years”
I wish I’d been there when Rany Jazayerli heard about the Meche signing.
I hope Texas gives Zito 8 years for a huge sum of money. Combined with the ARod deal they are still paying for, that should limit what they can do for a long time.
88
I completely agree that indeed the set up is there for SOME big move, whether it be Bonds or another impact player. Granted, whether whatever it would be would turn into a good move remains to be seen.
Aside from Ramirez for Soriano, just what in this off-season’s wackiness has Bavasi had any control over thus far?
MarinerDan – this is the same complaint we had last year when Bill signed everyone’s favourite gay paleontologist. We knew that better, cheaper, and less annoying guys would become available later (like Carlos Pena, Hee-Seop Choi, and Russ Branyan), and yet Bavasi went ahead and jumped the gun with the Everett signing.
It’s an established pattern. Bavasi doesn’t wait for potentially available players.
I think Bonds wants a WS ring more than he wants to beat Aarons HR record. With the starting rotation we have, we need more run support for sure. Since we went so cheap on pitching, can we sign Bonds to be DH and keep Sexson?
Only two things have made me happy on this board in the last few days – the fact that GilgaMeche is finally gone and the allusion to Architecture in Helsinki in the original post. These are dark days indeed.
Could the John Thomson deal still happen?
My favorite spin is on the Mariners front page tagging Ramirez as a #3 pitcher…talk about spinning a terrible trade…since when does baseball become ‘political’? haha
#105: Yep, Greg Brock is an idiot. That article is spin selling at its worst. Nobody but the M’s front office is buying it.
Given Bavasi’s track record in evauating current major leaguers, how much of the blame should we give to his scouting folks? Is he simply following the instructions of a scout who tells him:
“Yes, Horacio Ramirez is a good pitcher”
“Yes, Carl Everett will hit well here”
“Yes, Ramon Santiago for Carlos Guillen is a good trade”
“Yes, Willie Bloomquist needs to be extended”
Someone in the M’s scouting organization must be telling Bavasi that these are good players to acquire or retain. Am I incorrect in this assumption?
I didnt think they’d spin it so bad..I mean, might as well go the whole 10 yards then…say:
“Soriano’s heads not in the game…he got beaned and said he wanted a change of scenery to get the image out of his head…we are all about making our players happy, which usually means trading them…and we have more than enough great talent that we quietly keep in AAA so no one sees them…cause if people see a 22 year old rookie pitcher, they know he’s got talent, but a 30 year old rookie surprises people! And Ramirez..what a stud, Hudson is a righty…who needs to add another righty…also, being a lefty, we can have Ramirez DH for us sometimes. Plus, he has local connections..I heard he once dated a girl online from Spokane. Local ties are important”
#105: Yep, Greg Brock is an idiot. That article is spin selling at its worst. Nobody but the M’s front office is buying it.
His name’s Corey Brock, he’s a reporter, not an editorialist, and he works for Major League Baseball. If he wrote a column stating that the Mariners made a horrible deal and downgraded the roster, Tim Hevly would be in his ear in two seconds.
101–We knew that better, cheaper, and less annoying guys would become available later (like Carlos Pena, Hee-Seop Choi, and Russ Branyan), and yet Bavasi went ahead and jumped the gun with the Everett signing.
He signed Everett because Hargrove wanted him, not because he was afraid to wait.
105– My favorite spin is on the Mariners front page tagging Ramirez as a #3 pitcher…
FWIW, a reporter from the Atlanta paper was just on the radio saying the same thing– Ramirez when healthy could be a #2 or 3 guy.
109: I didnt say he shouldn’t spin..he is basically the Tony Snow for the Mariners..must spin everything to sound good…and the general Mariner fan will believe it…kinda sad.
I can see 80% of the fans on opening day not knowing where Soriano is…sigh..haha
110: Of course…Atlanta people want to make us feel better…I’d feel bad if I stole candy from a baby…I’d be out there the next day saying “I was simply protecting the kids teeth…”
Any guesses on where the M’s go from here?. I’ll assume they won’t be interested in an ace like Zito, so what type of moves does anyone see Bavasi making?
113: Moving on…I think we sign Thomson and fail in trading Sexson…We might be able to get Ramon Santiago or Jose Mesa by trading Broussard…but obviously we aren’t looking for value in trades
#109: Ah, yes. Corey…my mistake on the name.
Yes, Dave I’m sure there is good justification for him writing a crappy article describing what a great trade this was for the M’s. I’m sure he doesn’t want to make his boss mad at him, but it doesn’t excuse how poor of a spin job it was.
That was the weakest attempt at spin marketing I’ve ever seen. Well, I haven’t heard the M’s front office spin on this just yet so there is still hope for someone to make an even worse attempt.
He (Corey) had to be lauging his arss off at the M’s while writing that piece…….
Yes, Dave I’m sure there is good justification for him writing a crappy article describing what a great trade this was for the M’s. I’m sure he doesn’t want to make his boss mad at him, but it doesn’t excuse how poor of a spin job it was.
His job is to write down what the people he’s talking to tell him, and attempt to get interesting quotes by asking provocative questions. If Bill Bavasi says something stupid, such as “He’s a left-hander who had plus stuff.”, Corey’s job is not to make it sound smarter and spin it better. He’s not a P.R. guy. He’s a reporter.
“I can see 80% of the fans on opening day not knowing where Soriano is”
Actually 80% don’t even know WHO Soriano is.
113: I fully expect the M’s to sign Thomson, fail on all other fronts, unless of couse they manage to screw up a Broussard trade and end up dumping him on the O’s for another raw, never to develop minor league bullpen arm.
I expect at this point we’ll end up with an opening day rotation of
1. Washburn
2. Felix
3. Ramirez
4. Thomson
5. Beak/Wood
Definately don’t have much faith in the front office pulling off a helpfull trade at this point.
Anyone got some details on the rumor ESPN has on their site about Sexson on First for the Yanks?
If Bavasi pulls off Sexson for Phillip Hughes, I will forgive him. Just barely.
#119– that it is from the fertile mind of NY Post columnist George King?
Who the hell is Phillip Hughes?
msb – I dont know. I dont have Insider, so I cant read the rumor.
no, according to George, the Mariners (who want to move both Sexson & Beltre to clear up payroll) might be enticed by Melky Cabrera…
I had no idea…
There actually is a site http://www.firebillbavasi.com
Melky huh…cause we dont have enough OF
more from the It Could Be Worse file: “The Pittsburgh Pirates are very pleased to offer you the opportunity to participate in a LIVE online video Q&A session with General Manager Dave Littlefield.”
Dave,
Like you say, Corey’s job isn’t to make it sound smarter or spin it, but his own words here seem to be doing just that.
“Seattle’s biggest need entering the offseason was starting pitching and the addition of Ramirez will go a long way in filling the three open spots in the rotation behind Felix Hernandez and Washburn.”
I wouldn’t call adding Ramirez as being a piece that will “go a long way” in filling our rotation needs. Yes, it fills a hole in the rotation while creating another one in the bullpen.
It basically fills a spot. Saying it “goes a long ways” is trying to make the acquisition sound smarter that it is and is spinning the deal, IMO.
Maybe you think its just reporting and that’s fine. When I read that as noted above I see positive spin on it from Brock’s own words..not just from the quotes. And yes, that is a stupid statement by Bavasi.
Gil Meche for $55 miiiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllliiiioooooon NOOOOOOOOO
Yeah, Gil isnt worth 5.5 million.
From the Brock article:
First, I really hope White isn’t all of a sudden a candidate for the rotation. Second, Bavasi just confirmed it: We gave away one of the best relievers in the game for a pitcher who happened to be young and left-handed.
I’m now at the stage where I just chuckle and shake my head over and over again….
OMG..go to the Seattle Mariners website and look at the intro about “Mariner’s Meeting Mission Accomplished”…thats horrid!
Who says “Mission Accomplished” nowadays and means it?
Yeah it’s horrible. It does say we want one more arm though. We have money — so we better spend it on something worthwhile. Sexson & Naegotte for LaRoche and Hudson. Sound good? Mmm hm.
#133 – hahaha
Note Bavasi’s careful use of the past tense there.
I don’t see how Ichiro will possibly re-sign. This is a last-place team, again.
I think Bavasi needs to start negotiations with Ichiro today. If Ichiro balks, I think we need to trade him. Am I being too hasty?
Naegotte was already released, and has signed a minor league deal with another team.
If we trade Ichiro it better be the a far corner of the world for a large fortune.
from ESPN: “The Dodgers might entertain offers for starter Brad Penny to acquire an impact bat, but don’t look for Los Angeles to make a run at reacquiring third baseman Adrian Beltre from Seattle. “We’re not going to take that tour twice,” said a Dodgers official.”
Then toss in Blackley. (If he is still around..)
The M’s better not trade Beltre. He is a great defender and his bat is coming around.
136 – I did note that…
Hudson is not available. One reason they ended up with Ramirez.
Maybe when the “Mission Accomplished” headlines give way to “insurgency” headlines, someone will form a study group or something.
Meantime, stay the course, i guess.
Which means last place again.
I think Kim Ng should be Chris Antonetti’s running mate.
So we picked up that red headed Olypic snowboarder to start next year too? (joke, but seriously..he’s supposed to contend for a spot!?!? )
Rambo.
I feel like an ugly guy who got the really hot girlfriend…and is willing to let her go cause she deserves better.
I want Ichiro to leave, flourish elsewhere…want Soriano to do well in ATL and have a great career..sad when I feel good for the guys leaving cause I know they aren’t destined for last place
142-His bat comes around when he reaches operating temperature in August
Bavasi got played…
Bavasi just traded Soriano for Atlantas #5 china doll SP. Gee, what could he do with Ichiro?
email fancare@seattlemariners.com
Wow. You guys rally to a pointless cause like no other.
Losing soriano is not the end of the world. It’s not even a big deal. Is ramirez a good pickup in return? Probably not, but who knows what was even available that met our needs. Nobody is going to let a quality SP go for a high injury risk RP.
Does ramirez solve the rotation issues? Probably not. I think bavasi is trying to grab a few cheap options for the back end of the rotation. I dont think he sees these as replacements for getting a decent starter.
At worst soriano has a higher potential upside. Even then i wouldn’t be surprised if there is more going on here.
Lastly, in the context of the deals and money being thrown around this winter, this deal is nothing. This is not going to hamstring the team long term. Arguing that we have no bullpen because soriano and lowe are gone is ridiculous – lowe pitched in 15 games this season, soriano had 13 total between 2004/2005. Life goes on. Stop dramabombing.
Link for “wrap up” doesn’t work — have an extra “h” at the beginning.
hhttp://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262983.html
dan, I don’t know where you get the Kool-Aid but it sure is powerful.
Look, no one said this was the single worst move of all time. But, it was a stupid, stupid trade no matter how you slice it. Soriano was valuable to our team. Our bullpen has been significantly downgraded because of it. What we got in return is, in all likelihood, no better than what we already had (or could have picked up for next to no money). Ramirez is simply no better than Baek/Wood/etc. It was just a move that is indefensible.
And, when you consider it in light of innumerable other bad moves by Bavasi (see above), it really does suggest that he is not the right man to lead the M’s back to contention.
I think folks were hoping for a productive offseason and this move suggests exactly the opposite. In fact, it strongly suggests that Bavasi is on the wrong track.
But of course somehow Bavasi used basic stats (wins-losses etc.) and how they throw (left in this case) to trick Howard Lincoln into thinking it was a good move. Wow, what a surprise, the Seattle Mariners organization is officially run by idiots.
156, i never said it was a good deal, just not as bad as people are making it out to be. Just look at 157.
Sure, i agree, it’s probably 70/30 that the braves got the better end of this deal. There is a decent chance soriano’s arm implodes, and a less likely chance that ramirez is a reasonable 4/5 starter for the next few years, but i wouldn’t count on those things. And if it does’t work out that way i’m not going to sit around and be as pissed as i am when, say, carlos guillen tears the cover off the ball in detroit. I am also going to be significantly less pissed than i’d be if we had dropped $10-15m/yr on a junk arm, or on gary matthews, or on one of the many other garbage deals that have happened this winter.
When you look at bavasi if you pick and choose the bad deals then sure, it paints a bad picture. If you factor in the bad deals avoided, and factor in the good deals, then it’s not that bad of a picture.
Jeez am I lucky the Jays lost out on Gil Meche. I thought 4/40 was too much. But 5/55!!! HOLY CRAP. He’s a career 4.50 ERA or so starter. It does, however, make the Royals a better team, as they surge to 72 wins.
I think there’s a kernel of truth amidst all the spin emanating from the M’s suite…
“It’s one of the more miserable Winter Meetings I’ve ever been to. I think it’s the lack of activity and the volcanic market.” — Bavasi.
The M’s haul: one gimpy corner OF, one gimpy 4th starter in exchange for a good bullpen guy, and a Rule 5 draftee. Wheee.
Next news we’ll hear is that Bavasi checks himself into AA, and later, as part of his 9th step to recovery, apologizes to M’s fans for being fall-down drunk during most of the winter meetings.
“They got a good starter, we think, in Horacio,” Braves manager Bobby Cox said
We think are the key words! haha..wow..Bavasi
So where do the M’s go from here? Do they dare consider trading Ichiro…a first glance of the 2007 team does not look promising, and he may be looking to move on.
So good that Cox was willing to trade him.
158, I agree that Bavasi has made some decent moves (though, in retrospect most of them didn’t work out the way we had hoped). But, so far, the results of his tenure speak for themselves — repeated last place finishes and, at least in my opinion, no real hope to pull out of the tailspin. He has not been a good GM, period.
Where would you rank him in the game? Top half? Not me, I think he falls into the bottom third, easy.
A series of decent moves that don’t work out are not considered a postive. As far as the Bobby Cox quote? That’s what I told the guy who bought my last car also…”Runs great, just out of the shop!”
I got hounded on the Seattle Mariner message board before the Winter meetings for saying he was one of the worst GM’s in baseball..I’d put him in the bottom 5…now everyone is saying the same things I was..oohh, how i wish i were eating crow right now
Why would a free agent pitcher sign with the Royals, even assuming they outbid everyone else? Even a good pitcher is likely to have a losing record in that organization.
Beltre’s bat came around in June, actually.
167: when you know you are overpriced and wont be grilled by the fans when you suck because they dont have any…its a perfect setting!
Scraps-No pressure, lot’s of money, nice town to live in, great park (been there, terrific stadium, lot’s of folks to blame for every loss.
I would argue that it really didn’t. The pace of hitting did pick up in June but he was hired to jack the ball out of the park and took his time getting half way there. I know the numbers probably don’t match but I have always thought of him as an expensive David Bell.
“Baseball is fickle”, are the words I use to console myself, as the tears of a frustrated fan fall into my pillow each night.
Who would of thought that a rotation with Aaron Sele, Paul Abbot, and John Halama would have won so many games in 2001, or that the M’s would use only 5 starters for all of 2003?
At one time I was frustrated the Yankees got both Carl Pavano and Jaret wright, pitchers in the Mariner’s sites for the 2004 meetings, 2005 season.
It’s a dumb leap of logic to feel less bad about bad decisions based on the belief that there’s so much randomness that will affect the eventual outcome…..but it’s all I have to cling to right now.
172
An ancient proverb by Vladina is said to go something like this:
“Its better to be lucky than good”
The more i think about it the reason im so pissed about this trade isnt because we got the worst deal ever (its not). Im pissed because this deal shows that the FO right now has zero idea on how to evalutae talent. I thought things were looking up, no huge moronic FA sigings, seemingly decent trades and pickups over the course of the season, but then something like this goes down erasing all hope.
Ramirez = Foppert?
Ramirez = Bavasi cracking under pressure, or just being lazy
Beltre hit 324/387/611 in June. I’ll take those numbers even if he only hit 5 HR’s for the month. I wonder if David Bell has ever had an OPS of 998 for a month.
#172
I share your sentiments as it is all I have at the moment.
Go to Lookout Landing, Jeff nailed the Winter Meetings in his summary.
What happened to that Sexson and Soriano for Tim Hudson and Adam LaRoche deal? How did it fester down to Soriano for Ramirez, straight up? Did the Braves catch wind, or was that all just smoke up are asses all along?
I forsee Beltre having his AL breakout year in 2007. He is just too good to keep down for that long.
re 180, I think this is a major reason of the frustration everyone is expecting. Folks were drooling at the prospect of LaRoche and Hudson (and/or Manny Ramirez) a little more than 24 hours ago and now have crashed down to earth with Horacio Ramirez. Without those rumors, the reaction would be much more temperred.
#181
I agree, he really started to heat up when his pitch selection improved. Is it possible it just took him a year and half to get used to AL pitching?
“expressing” not “expecting” [blushing]
Probably not Ralph but honestly was 16 RBI and 2 HR’s in April/May what $14Mil bought a good deal? Was having to change him to the 2 hole just to get him going what you wanted to see from a guy hired to be a middle of the order RBI producer? Is 89 RBI for the year ok? All of this while the club struggled to stay in touch with the division? When he heats up he is a force but jeez, bring it to Spring Training for once.
Since the Royals lost 100 games last year and the M’s offered Meche arbitration, does this mean we’ll have one of the top picks in the draft next year?
Hi! We’ve discussed this many times before, but no: Meche was a B. It’s a 2nd round pick.
182, Maybe? I still don’t see fans happy about a Ramirez for Soriano deal. I’m not!
I am going to hold you to that.
I love the Dodgers quote on Beltre:
espn.com
• The Dodgers might entertain offers for starter Brad Penny to acquire an impact bat, but don’t look for Los Angeles to make a run at reacquiring third baseman Adrian Beltre from Seattle. “We’re not going to take that tour twice,” said a Dodgers official.
So, will the Mariners be looking to sign John Thompson? Swing a deal for Jason Jennings? Nah, it sounds like they’re satisfied with the moves they already …
Jose Gullien = the big bat the Mariners needed
Horacio Ramirez and Sean White = suitable replacements for the Mariners after they lost Jamie Moyer, Gil Meche and Joel Pineiro
New hole in the bullpen = woops, didn’t think about that one. We got a starter, didn’t we?
YOU GOTTA LOVE THAT MARINER OPTIMISIM! IT’S ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU SEA SICK!
So it’s Felix, Washout, Ramirez and White in the rotation. Woohoo! Who’s getting that all important fifth spot: Baek, Woods, the guy on the street scalpping his tickets? Hey, maybe he can pitch? He’d be cheap! That’s what’s most important.
But they left off the final part of that quote…
“If they gave away Soriano for HO-Ram, they’re too stupid to realize that Eric Gagne is a free agent. We’ll offer ‘em Gagne for Beltre…”
[Pineiro]
#191
I think Dave mentioned in his post that White was in AA last year and isn’t likely to be a contributor, let alone a starter.
We could always fill the hole in the bullpen with Beak or Woods.
Pineiro, Pineiro x’s 100 on the board.
If I were Baek or Woods, I would be really pissed right now. You’ve got to believe they both feel they’re as good as, or better than, HoRam and White. And, they’ve both got to be asking themselves “Why didn’t you just hand the job to me? I can do better than these guys and I cost you NOTHING!!!”
193 – Yes, Pineiro. Started in the M’s rotation in 2006. Finally, may have wore out his welcome. Wait? Is he still on the team? Oh? Sorry!
#194 – We’re all going to be in AA after watching this team in 2007. All the man cans of Natty light in the world won’t make M’s games bearable.
We have money to spend and Batista will be the receipent of it. Cheers to an average to below-average season everyone!
What happened to that Sexson and Soriano for Tim Hudson and Adam LaRoche deal?
Glavine re-signed with the Mets & the Braves decided to hold onto Hudson.
and FWIW, Bavasi has said nothing about being finished. He treats the winter meetings as the place you make contacts for trying to make deals for the rest of the winter. Like most GMs.
huh. the Cubs took Josh Hamilton in the Rule 5– wonder if that was somehow Lou’s influence?
They traded him to the Reds.
so, not so much
200 – Thank goodness he didn’t give away his best trading chip (other than Ichiro) during the meetings.
Oh, wait….
Does anyone here have any doubt Zito gets 6/$90-96M or 7/$105-110M from the Mets or Rangers? Does anyone really think the M’s are actually, realistically in the hunt? Seattle has had Olympic bids with better chances of happening. Let’s let it go.
Batista seems a likely M’s target. I have seen rumors of at least a couple of teams with pending offers in the 3/$24M range. I mean, probably a marginal upgrade from what currently passes for middle-rotation pitching, right? He certainly projects as an untradeable 38 y.o. $8M DFA guy a few years down the line. M’s FO loves those.
That said … I’ll never believe anything I read until it happens. If I had a dollar for every time I heard Schmidt was a lock, I could pay Meche for a month or two.
Ohka, Batista, Marquis… That’s the M’s future.
The Mets are saying they don’t want to give Zito more than 5 years/$75 million. The Mets are betting he’ll take a discount to play in NYC.
If Seattle can beat the Mets’ offer and meet the Rangers’, Blue Jays’, or Cardinals’ price, they can land Zito. He’d rather come here than head to any of those places, I’m betting. If the Angels get serious, that could be the end too.
By my math, it went 33% of the way to filling in the rotation needs. What does the bullpen have to do with the validity of the first statement?
I would strongly object to the idea that Ramirez “fills the need” — he plugs into a slot, but he most certainly doesn’t fill the need.
I’m on the same page as the rest of you, I’m not happy about Soriano for Ramirez, and I’m also not excited about the possibility of getting any TOR starter, as more and more are signed for astronomical contracts…
But for a change, lets try to look at what’s left, because obviously Ramirez isn’t our entire solution to the rotation problem….
FA:
Barry Zito, LHSP.
Agent Boras is looking for something in the ballpark of 6 years/$90 million at least. I’m not sure whether to be more concerned about the length (he’s 28 years old now) or the price of $15 mil per. And that’s a CONSERVATIVE estimate, he could get more than that, especially if he shortens his contract length demands. He’s by far the best SP still available. He’s a lefty with good control, and awesome changeup, but is not overpowering. He’s a legitimate #1/#2 starter who has managed to avoid the DL. Sources have gone back and forth on our interest level, but currently the consensus is that we’re NOT interested because Boras is holding out too long, and we don’t have as much money as the Mets, Rangers and Yankees his primary other suitors.
John Thomson, RHSP.
A groundball pitcher, Thomson is probably no better than a #4 guy in any rotation. He also has had trouble staying of the DL the past couple of years, and at 33 that trend is more likely to continue. The good news is he should only demand about $5 mil/year in this infalted market. His agent has made it known that the Mariners are using him as a “backup plan” in case their other options fall through. He’s a good guy to fill out a rotation with (say fill the hole that Ramirez just filled), but getting him would be a major disappointment because we need a TOR starter, not a bottom of the pack guy.
Miguel Batista, RHSP.
A reliever turned starter has filled both rolls throughout his career, and has excelled at neither. He’s the typical roll-filler, and shouldn’t be considered much better than a #4 guy. Again, the M’s need a front line starter, not another mediocre guy. I’ve only seen one report that has tied his name to Seattle. He’s also 35 years old, so he’s the senior of the bunch, and has never won more than 11 games in a season (due in part to being a reliever). Expect him to draw roughly $6 mil a year..
Jason Marquis, RHSP
At 28 Marquis has some “upside”, but that’s about the extent of the pros. He featured a 6 ERA last year. He does have some name recognition due to a semi-acceptable 3.71 ERA in 2004 and 4.18 ERA in 2005 playing for the Cardinals. Because of that name recognition he may demand more money, say $6-7 mil a year, and is a worse option than Thomson.
Mark Mulder, LHSP
An intriguing possibility, at 29 Mulder has a great deal of upside. He was a dominant pitcher on the A’s just a few years ago, though he is unlikely to return to this form after undergoing season-ending surgery last year. He’s a huge ?, and won’t even be ready by opening day. His surgery to repair a torn ligament is said to have gone well, but it’s unsure how much of his former greatness he can reclaim. This is the same injury that Bartolo Colon suffered. Because of his history/name alone he’ll probably get a prorated $8-10 mil, one year contract to reprove himself, but if it’s incentive laden it may be worth it.
Jeff Suppan, RHSP
An interesting possibility, Suppan is one of the better pitchers available, though he’s no where near as good as what he’s going to get. He can be labeled a TOR pitcher, though really he’s more middle of the rotation. He’s pretty good at getting ground balls, and has been VERY consistent the last 4 years (ERA between 3.57 and 4.18, 14-15 wins, 110 Ks in 190 innings). At 31 he’s probably looking for a 4 year deal at about $10-12 million per year. They’ll base this off Gil Meche. He’s slightly older, but more proven, but with a lower ceiling than the former Mariner. Look for him to pop up on the Mariner’s radar.
Tomo Okha, RHSP
Again, another mid-rotation guy. He’s 30, spent most of his career in the NL and has posted a 4 ERA. Fly ball pitcher, not overpowering, decent control. Probably will ask for $4-6 mil a year.
Names via TRADE:
Tim Husdon, RHSP Braves
I only included him because I wanted to point out that’s he no longer available. I know he was, but by us trading for Ramirez, the Braves can no longer afford to lose another piece of their rotation.
Noah Lowry, LHSP Giants
There was some talk about Sexson for Lowry straight up, but that may be unfair to the Giants. Not to say Lowry is great, but he’s a 26 year old with some upside. He’s also not a FA for a few more yaers. He’s a flyball pitcher, again not overpowering, but would be a nice pick up. A trade for Sexson could be a nice salary dump, dependent on if we include any other piece in the deal. If it’s one for one expect us to pay the Giants maybe $4 mil a year. All in all that would save us at least a few mil / year which would open up some money to….do what? This plan was originally designed to net Lowry as our mid-rotation guy, then use the money to sign a top rotation guy, but now that we already have our mid-rotation guy this trade makes less sense.
Adam Loewen, LHSP Orioles
Matt Cain, RHSP Giants
Jon Lester, LHSP Red Sox
I put these together because all of them are untouchable by the respective organizations. No combination of Sexson/Mateo, etc. is going to make them available.
Hayden Penn, RHSP Orioles (prospect)
Penn is a semi-toted prospect that could be a good pick up for the Mariners in terms of the future. It’s unsure how much he would contribute to the SP next year, which will probably make a trade for him unlikely, especially if it cost us a piece we plan on relying on next year in Sexson.
Phillip Hughes, RHSP Yankees (prospect)
There was some talk of Sexson going to the Yankees, and who we might get in return. Melky Cabrera is the most common name talked about, though someone brought up Hughes. Sexson is not nearly enough to net Hughes, who couldn’t contribute next year anyway.
Daniel Cabrera, RHSP Orioles
Many of the same teams are showing up (Giants, Orioles) because these are 2 teams that have been interested in Sexson (our main bargaining chip now that Soriano is gone), and are also the only teams that may have extra SP. Cabrera is good, and probably too good for just Sexson. The Orioles need bullpen help, but we no longer have excess in that department. He’s like Meche in that he’s overpowering, has great stuff but lacks pose and loses concentration. He would be a great pick up and could contribute immediatly, unfortunatly he’s almost on the untouchables list of the Orioles (not as much as Loewen though).
Any SP from White Sox
The White Sox has a surplus of SP, but with their recent move of Freddy Garcia, they’re probably not looking to trade Buerhle, Vazquez, Contreras, McCarthy, etc.
Joe Blanton, RHSP A’s
There were talks earlier that the Mariners may send Reed to the A’s for Blanton. Blanton is a solid mid rotation guy, who’s young (26) and not a FA for several more years. Unfortunatly, Reed won’t be enough to net him, and I’m not sure what else the A’s would want. They would need ML ready SP to replace him, and we all know they love prospects, neither of which the M’s have. Also, trading within the division is always difficult.
Jason Jennings, RHSP Rockies
Jennings is coming up on free agency, and will most likely demand more than the Rockies can offer, so they’re thinking about trading him while they can still get something for him. This is dependent on whether they can reach terms on a new (affordable) deal or not. He’s a promising young (26) SP, with a great deal of upside. He’s not a #1 or even a #2 guy, but I would definatly be happy with him on this team. I’m not really sure what he would cost, and the M’s would want to work out a contract extension with him immediatly, probably around $5-8 mil per year. Last year was a semi “breakout” year, dropping his ERA from the 5’s to 3.78
Dontrelle Willis, LHSP Marlins
He won’t be traded. Period. The Marlins can’t afford to trade him. And if they did, the package they would demand starts with Felix, Jones and Clement. As much as I want him, I at least have dreams about our future, which would no longer exist if such a trade went through.
So is Meche’s deal the worst free-agent signing of the offseason now?
P.S. I brought up Hughes in the Sexson discussion, but it was intended as nothing more than a joke. Cashman is not THAT stupid.
#208: Yes it filled 33% of the holes in our rotation if you assume all slots are valued equally. When you essentially have a rotation of
1. Empty
2. Felix
3. Empty
4. Washburn
5. Empty
And you add another #4 or #5 starter to the equation that does not equal “going a long way towards filling the holes” in our rotation. One could even argue that you didn’t fill 33% of the holes consider a #1 starter and a #3 starter carry significantly more weight than a #5 starter does.
You trade for a #1 starter and that would equate to going a long ways to fill the holes in our rotation. When you need a #1 starter and a #3 starter and you fill the #5 slot…….all you did was place a warm body in a vacated position.
Aanyways, this is a dumb subject that I probably shouldn’t have brought up in the first place. Defend him (Corey Brock) as you wish, I just see it differently. No big deal.
Ah, I love this-
From the official Mariners site:
Huge strides people.
Jeff Suppan is what I would call the definition of a 4th starter.
I’m depressed as hell…
The Ms went from Hudson/Laroche/locking up the youngsters and possibly a 90 win season if every thing broke just right (hope does spring eternal) to the walk of shame slinking out of the Schuerholz Frat House on a cold, icy morning only to step smack dab into the middle of a crowded street named losing season avenue…
Right now my big hope is that they ink Thomson before someone else nabs him….. wow…. how’s that for victory?
Anyway, a haiku….
I hate Bavasi
His bald head notwithstanding
He destroys my hope
209: he does in the sense you need someone to fill the spot…
So is Meche’s deal the worst free-agent signing of the offseason now?
I dunno. Meche, Matthews, and Pierre seem all to be pretty close to replacement level and they got essentially the same deal. It’s difficult for me to say that any of those three deals is much worse than the others.
#213: There is value in giving 200 innings at an ERA around 4.75. We asked Santa for a Hudson doll and he gave us a cheaper knockoff that isn’t as fun to play with and probably wont last as long (and the fat bastard still ate the cookies we left for him by the fireplace)…
To me the issue is all about risk/reward…. from that standpoint, our GM really got hosed…. I think Bavasi coulda managed the risk better and in my opinion risk management is a vital skill when considering effective roster formulation. In my humblest of opinions, its moves like this and even the Guillen signing that really make me wonder if the Ms will ever be able to get a competitive advantage or if we’ll just simply have to wait for them to get lucky…
I’m prone to hyperbole but I am also a patient sort of fellow….patience though requires hope…. I’m not real hopeful lately.
#218:
Meche got 5/55
Matthews 5/50
Pierre 5/44
Brock’s story is the reason why it’s a tough job to do what he does. If you ask him, I guarantee he doesn’t LIKE these deals as the way to build a club coming off three sub .500 seasons and in dire need of rotation help. But like Dave said, if Brock rips the moves, the M’s PR and Media Relations staff is probably shredding the walls with expletives toward Brock.
Hevly is a by-the-book type, too… he’d be so ticked.
If Seattle can beat the Mets’ offer and meet the Rangers’, Blue Jays’, or Cardinals’ price, they can land Zito. He’d rather come here than head to any of those places, I’m betting.
why?
Well, despite the mediocre acquisitions that Bavasi has made in the offseason, Mariner fans still can look forward to … Willie Bloomquist being signed through the 2008 season!
Woot!!!
oooh!!
Don’t Be Chilly… Come Meet Willie
Tomorrow at Southcenter
Willie Bloomquist is swinging by the Southcenter Mariners Team Store from 5:00 p.m. – 6:00 p.m. tomorrow to spread the holiday cheer.
Don’t forget, for every purchase of $75 or more at any Mariners Team Store, you’ll get a Raul Ibanez collectible coin, while supplies last.
Saddest part of the Winter meetings you ask? The fact that the Bloomquist extension is not longer looking so terrible
You make fun…
But by the time this offseason is over, we’re all going to need to emulate Willie’s grit to get through 2007.
Looks to me that no one in our whole divison has improved. I like the Piazza signing for the A’s but he’s not better than the Big Hurt. No one else has done anything good. It could only take 87 wins to take the West.
The main reason that the Gil Meche contract (five years, $55,000,000) is worse than either the Gary Matthews, Jr. contract (five years, $50,000,000) or Juan Pierre contract (five years, $44 million) is ’cause it’s more a financial burden for the team that signed him.
The Kansas City Royals, unlike either the Anaheim Angels or the Chicago Cubs, are a small-market team; thus Matthews, Jr. and Pierre won’t monetarily hinder the Angels and the Royals, respectively, as much as Meche will monetarily hinder the Royals.
In the end, ultimately, the fact that the Royals will spend $20,000,000 of the ballclub’s approximated $50,000,000 payroll on Meche ($7,000,000 salary and $2,000,000 signing bonus) and Mike Sweeney ($11,000,000 salary) proves, without question, that it’s a second-rate franchise.
I would much rather have a 32 year old Meche in 2010 than a 36 year old Gary Matthews Jr in 2010. Meche should at least be a quality 4th starter, instead of a 4th outfielder.
“Quality.” Heh.
The Mariners website stating our starting pitching problems is solved by acquiring a minor leaguer in White has me disgusted. I didn’t realize picking up any minor league pitcher counts as solving our rotation problem. I find that very insulting to Mariner fans.
How can we not go get Thomson for $3-4million now? We know we have to have it since the team has only spent an extra $6.5M on Guillen/Ramirez so far.
um, right there in that article you cited it says:
“the Mariners aren’t likely done looking for upgrades to their roster. They would still like to add another starting pitcher. Chris Arnold, the agent for free agent John Thomson, said Seattle has interest in the right-handed pitcher. “I think they have him at a fallback position,” Arnold said.”
and
“Unfinished business: Despite deals for Ramirez and White, the Mariners might not be done looking for starting pitching. Bavasi wants to add another starting pitcher and another bat as a complement to lefty Ben Broussard as a designated hitter platoon.”
Not that I wanted him, but it looks like we won’t be getting Bonds: link.
Why would we use White who has never pitched above AA in his career as a starter? That’s even crazy for Hargrove.
The main reason that the Gil Meche contract (five years, $55,000,000) is worse than either the Gary Matthews, Jr. contract (five years, $50,000,000) or Juan Pierre contract (five years, $44 million) is ’cause it’s more a financial burden for the team that signed him.
I could buy that Meche’s contract is somewhat worse for that reason. To offset that point a little, I’d argue that a pitcher, even a #4 starter, is a more valuable commodity than an aging corner OF stretched into CF (Matthews.)
Looking back at it, I guess I’d drop Pierre out of that group a little. It was for less money and his career EQA is essentially the same as Gary Matthews’ EQA. I consider Pierre to be an overrated defender, but he seems like a reasonable bet to better Matthews in defensive value over the length of their deals.
Why would we use White who has never pitched above AA in his career as a starter? That’s even crazy for Hargrove.
The pitching version of Luis Ugueto: Who the hell needs production from the 25th roster spot?
hah, has everyone checked the last lookout landing post?
Damn, that’s hysterical. I’d read a whole book of that dialogue.
There’s a chance Soriano will be on the DL by the trading deadling, but if he isn’t, I guarantee he would fetch more than Ramirez come July.
OMG, according to the Baltimore Sun: “The Orioles offered Rodrigo Lopez to the Mariners for Ben Broussard, but no deal was struck when it turned out Seattle wanted Jaret Wright.”
hahaha..we’re trying to amass the most #4 and #5 starters EVER compiled!
Bavasi strikes a hard bargain!
You know, “Spahn and Sain and pray for rain” wouldn’t have been the same without Johnny Sain, no matter how good Warren Spahn was.
“Felix and …” What? “Felix and Wash and pray for the roof to jump the track?” “Felix and Baek and pray for a lahar warning?”
I don’t have a good feeling about this rotation.
#240 — well, if true, I suppose Jaret Wright could have been this year’s Carl Everett, another bone tossed to Hargrove …
#233– hey, who needs Bonds, when we could get … The King?
This is the only positive I can take of the Meche signing for the Royals. You guys know more about Meche than I do. But what if I made this comparison. Another pitcher was considered a talent hard-thrower out of high school, and his career was plagued by injuries. By age 27, he had very similar stats to Meche: close to .500 record, mid-4 ERA, you know the drill. By 31, this pitcher was in the NL as a dominant force. This the pitcher, check out his stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carpech01.shtml
Also, with Butler, Gordon, and Shealy around next year, and the semblance of a real pitching staff (Meche, Odalis Perez, Bannister, etc.), I can see the Royals doing pretty decently next year.
With that being said. Horrible signing.
Jeff Passan @ Yahoo
Best One-Sided Trade: Atlanta receives Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez. Soriano could eventually close for the Braves. Ramirez will never be anything more than a serviceable No. 4 starter for Seattle, and even that is a long shot.
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
And BTW, its so hard to pick what the other worse signing of the offseason is, but it is either Pierre vs. Mathews, or Soriano vs. Lee. Mathews could be a replacement level player in 2 years, and a bench player by year 4. Pierre just steals bases (overrated) and hasn’t had a decent obp in a few year. But the best part is that there are so many good prospects, in the OF too, in the Dodgers system, that he’d block them with an expensive, inferior player with a long-term contract. Kemp, Ethier, etc. As for Soriano and Lee, they’re both solid players right now. But 8 years for Soriano? $100 million for Lee? I give the edge for worse contract to Soriano.
As a Mariner fan, the highlight of the Winter Meetings is Geoff Baker describing the lowlights: http://tinyurl.com/y8s2nq
Chris Carpenter. Yeah, we’ve heard that a bazillion times. Thanks, though.
Who brought up Carpenter? I thought he got reasonable money in his extension with the Cards. You’re not saying his was one of the worst contracts of the offseason are you?
MLB.com says Bonds signs with Giants on 1/$16M deal
Well…In the heading the only LH power pitcher available in this market was mentioned. In the entire 250 comments since, his name has not been repeated. It’s a longshot, but Pettitte has so far only been offerred a one year deal for $12M by Houston. Pettitte is about 6 months older than Schmidt, but more likely to be worth a $3/47M deal even if the last 2 years were player options. I’d rather see Pettitte offered more on a shorter term than Zito even offered 4/60, which wouldn’t land Zito. It’s doubtful that Pettitte would sign with Seattle, but I’d rather beg him and overpay for him than continue looking at the other options that seem available. I don’t know if I could believe hearing that he signed with the M’s at this point though. It might take a couple days to realise it was real.
“I’m more surprised at the stultified dollars that has been spent on mediocre players. It’s amazing to me, because even though revenues [are at high levels], there is not enough revenue to support the type of signings that are being done.” — Bowden
Jesus Motherlovin’ Christ there’s some serious overreacting that’s been going on the last few days. And I’m still trying to figure out how the ticking time bomb that was Soriano’s arm / shoulder was supposed to have any kind of major trade value.
I find it funny that we sit here and talk about Soriano’s injury woes, and speculate he could get injured rather easily in the future, and yet we think he can get more in trade. What? Did the entire rest of MLB go deaf, blind, dumb, and retarded about Soriano’s injury history?
Could we have gotten more then Ramirez? Hell if I freaking know. If that’s the best we could do, would I have taken it? No, and anybody who says otherwise is an idiot. But that doesn’t mean Soriano was going to net us anybody majorly interesting.
I’m not endorsing this trade, but I am curious as to what we thought we could get. No rosterbating either, I just want an unofficial survey as to who we thought we could get for Soriano, and no taking liberties with “dumbass” GMs. Give me your best realistic shot.
#252: they could’ve done alot better…. include Soriano in package deals and who knows? This was jumping the gun…..if this was the deal Bavasi wanted to make all along, why pull the trigger in Orlando? This deal wouldve’ probably have still been there in March. Getting rid of Soriano now makes it that much harder to make other deals with a real potential to improve the club.
#246: you bring up a good point…. every team should be investing $55M in arms that might become Carpenter…
#252 TIF: Jeff Sullivan summed it up pretty well:
A Pirate blog has a different, and interesting, take on the Laroche-for-Gonzalez deal, but it still leads to the conclusion that Bavasi got hosed (I know nothing about the credibility of the Bucco Blog). In any case, the price for even mediocre middle relievers is insane this winter. That includes pitchers with past injuries – Gagne and Dotel come to mind. You are fooling yourself if you think Ramirez was the top possible value for Soriano.
#253: If this is what he wanted all along (excuse me while I go vomit), he may have felt the pressure of the Braves getting Mike Gonzalez instead and not being able to get his prized Horacio Ramirez even a day later, let alone in March.
An interesting choice of words
Perhaps that’s a euphemism for “Luis needs to take a shower more often.”
Oops. I meant “Jeff Sullivan” and “Pirate blog.”
More on Over-spending
Here’s a nationmal article that says what USS MARINER (and its readers)has beeen saying all along. (Please ignore the inappropiate use of the term winter meetings.)
http://tinyurl.com/yajaqm
(Too bad the Mariner balance isn’t carried over to the next year. This is certainly a good year to do that.)
God, how many shortstops in the last say 25 years were named Uribe? Another one, 47-year old Jose was killed early this morning when his SUV crashed.