Day-after coverage survey
The M’s trade a young, good-hitting, frequently injured good defensive corner outfielder for a once good-hitting, now injury-riddled second baseman who, heading forward, is
- just as likely to be injured
- likely to be a worse hitter
- costs about $12m more through 08 and another ~$9m for 09
- already not a good defender at second and getting worse
If you think Vidro’s going to rebound to his old form because he’ll be able to concentrate on hitting and stay healthy DHing, well, you could do that with Snelling, get better production and save $21m over three years.
They then threw in Fruto, a 22-year old live-arm reliever with great minor league numbers, stuff, and a body that looks like he might have eaten Mateo or something.
What does the press say?
The PI wimps out and runs an AP story.
Geoff Baker at The Seattle Times managed to turn out an article that, unlike his web article that said “Another offensive upgrade for the Mariners is to be finalized later this week when Jose Vidro joins the team as its full-time designated hitter” makes a set of pretty nice points — it includes a discussion of Vidro’s poor health, and manages to point out he doesn’t compare well to AL DHs:
But even his best numbers don’t rival those of the AL’s best DH candidates. The only time he’s topped 20 homers, or slugged better than .500, came during that stellar 2000 campaign.
Vidro has also never had a 100-RBI season, though that was partly a result of batting second in the order through much of his career.
Nice. Much improved from last night, certainly. Though:
To land Vidro, the Mariners finally gave up on the injury-plagued Snelling, 25, an Australian who showed flashes of promise when healthy but has suffered from knee injuries the past five years.
They weren’t all knee injuries.
The MLB.com article is, a little shockingly, conspicously not positive outside the quotes, and even notes how bad his range got last year:
After missing more than a month because of a left hamstring injury, Vidro returned to the club on Aug. 18, and his range at second deteriorated. He had a tough time going to his left and right. It got to a point where then-manager Frank Robinson benched Vidro a few games to give Bernie Castro a shot. Vidro ended the season as a first baseman.
Speaking of mariners.mlb.com, you may wish to vote in this poll:
Not that it’ll do any good.
Jeff @ Lookout Landing had a reaction much like ours.
Vidro’s declined from his peak, and even if he’s able to remain steady for as long as he plays in Seattle, he’s a .270-.280 EqA who doesn’t play the field. That puts him in Jay Gibbons territory, and Jay Gibbons was one of the worst DH’s in the AL last season.
Heh. Jay Gibbons.
Bill Bavasi dealt a young, cheap, good hitter for an old, expensive, arguably worse one, tossing in a talented young arm and a vesting option for good measure. In no way, shape, or form could this ever be mistaken for a good idea. It just couldn’t. There’s no way.
Yup. In general, the Nationals blogs are dancing a jig, as well as our AL West opponents. I’m not saying that consensus is the truth, or that many blogs should be considered to constitute authority, but if all your enemies get together to dance on a grave and sing with joy, well, you might be dead.
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no word on whether this is the front-end of a bigger deal? I’m cringing at the thought of a Lopez+Jones/Reed/etc for another pile o crap.
I just found out about the trade this morning. I’m in a little bit of shock – nothign about this makes sense to me.
I’m about ready to not bother paying for mlb.tv this year and writing a note to the front office explaining why.
Hold me.
I was upset yesterday, but today I can’t get myself to care. This team sucks and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. I hope attendance drops to embarrassingly low levels and ownership moves the team to Oklahoma City.
I know there’s no truth to it, but I nearly choked when one of the articles suggested that Vidro might play second, Lopez move to third, and Beltre get traded. For me, that would officially be the final flaming bag of dogshit set at my doorstep by Bavasi. Thank goodness that there’s nothing more than unfounded speculation re: that suggestion (which I hope was typed out before Vidro started talking about all the DH promises from Hargrove).
What sucks the most is this feels like a desparation gamble by a man trying to save his job. I mean, Bavasi has to know he’s gone, doesn’t he? This deal, combined with his “miserable” comment at the Winter Meetings; the guy knows he is getting his ass handed to him this offseason and he is trying to do something, anything, even if it has about 0.02 percent chance of working. He needs to be canned TODAY, now, now, now, now.
no word on whether this is the front-end of a bigger deal? I’m cringing at the thought of a Lopez+Jones/Reed/etc for another pile o crap.
Why? I think we should trade Lopez + Jones + Sexson for a MOR starter, and then Beltre + Clement + Reed for David Bell.
It would fit right in. Everyone would think that was their plan all along!
It is a very very very short list of General Managers around the league who can say they’ve been “fleeced” by Jim Bowden.
Welcome to the short list Bill Bavasi!
And soooooooo…….the M’s offseason gets even worse. I guess telling Bavasi that he was on the “hot seat” this season wasn’t such a good idea there Mr. Lincoln.
So now we bring in a light hitting, oft injured DH AND we manage to thin out our bullpen even more……….Brilliant!
The first line of the Baker column:
How many times do we hear this from declining baseball players? Has it ever turned out to be true? Why do the Mariners keep buying in to this?
And why is it that the local sports media seems to STILL give the Mariners the benefit of the doubt? The Seahawks are heading to the playoffs and the papers and radio shows are full of articles about how disappointing they are, and how they’re not good enough to make the super bowl but everything I’ve read and heard about this trade is full of “well, he says he feels good” and “three-time all star” and “he feels like he’ll get his groove back if he can play DH every day.” Meanwhile the Mariners are on their way to another last-place finish that thanks to losing some of their exciting young players (and Bavasi isn’t done yet) will be EVEN MORE boring next year.
Hi guys, long time reader, first time poster.
Upon waking up this morning and learning about this trade, I sent a long email to the M’s explaining why I can’t cheer for them anymore.
Trading Chris Snelling was the latest in a series of events that has ultimately forced me to break up with my baseball team of 27 years. I’m heartbroken.
I think I’m going to pick the Nats as my rebound team.
oddmanrush, I was thinking the same thing, about becoming a Nationals fan. I am a life long Marienrs fan who lives in Kansas City now, but with the Royals Meche thing, I can’t use them as my new team. Maybe I should wait for Portland to get a team, I don’t know.
Has anyone seen a quote directly from Bavasi regarding this trade? I’d be very interested to see it.
fuck
also from Geoff:
This is bound to be another hotly debated move in what’s becoming a winter filled with them for Seattle fans who had expected the team to load up on front-end pitching. Instead, the two pitching moves have been for mid-rotation starters Miguel Batista and Horacio Ramirez, while the team now sheds more youth to bring Vidro into an offense that last week added Nationals free-agent right fielder Jose Guillen. Vidro and Guillen, if healthy, appear to give the team a significant offensive upgrade. But it’s the health issues for a pair of decade-old bats that remain question marks.
and from Kirby Arnold:
The Seattle Mariners, having generated as many questions as answers in their offseason moves, are continuing that course by trading two players – including another relief pitcher – for an infielder with a recent history of injury.
I can’t wait to hear the fallout from Bavasi – the Good Samaritan.
“We wanted to give Chris a chance to play everyday…” or something to that effect. Like that’s supremely more important than making good decisions that might help this team win.
#12– Bavasi won’t say anything until Vidro is officialy a Mariner.
I’m looking forward to hearing the recap this spring of the U.S.S. Mariner 2nd Annual Pizza Feed with Special Guest Bill Bavasi.
After this trade, the question is not “do I now care enough about the Mariners to go to their games?” because I don’t.
Nor is the question “do I now care enough about the Mariners to watch their games on TV?” because I don’t.
Nor is it “do I now care enough about the Mariners to listen to their games on the radio while I am doing other, more productive work?” because I don’t.
No. Rather the question now becomes: “do I now care enough about the Mariners to follow their “progress” on the blogs?
Now THAT’s serious!
Vidro was quoted as saying “…they’re going to sign some pitchers…”. Does this mean more bad decisions lie ahead?
If any decisions are left to be made I think we can be sure they won’t be good ones.
#15 – that’s exactly what you’ll hear. My guess:
“In Jose we get a guy who has a strong track record of knocking in runs, is a switch hitter providing us versitility, and is a good bet to rebound from injuries that are, we feel, primarily caused by everyday wear and tear from playing in the field. We feel comfortable that Jose will be a great addition, especially given the opportunity to focus mainly on his hitting. He also gives us some flexibility in being able to back up our guys in the infield, and we need that depth over the course of a season.
Regarding Chris, I am sorry to see him go, but with the addition of Guillen, I feel strongly that we could not give him his best opportunity to play everyday, and I am sorry that he didn’t reach his full potential here before we needed to make the team better in the near term.
He stayed pretty healthy last year, so that wasn’t the issue, it was a matter of having a crowded outfield, and given Chris’ inexperience in the majors, I couldn’t justify him as our everyday DH. Chris will do well in Washington, and get a better shot at playing everyday. We wish both Chris and Emiliano the best.”
I shudder to think of it, but Bill might even try to compare Vidro to Edgar claiming that Edgar became a great hitter when he didn’t have to focus as much on playing third. If he does that, I will find a way to slap him in the face.
well, I am just hoping Edgar talks to Jose about how being a DH is different, and that, yes, you do need to keep your legs strong.
Snelling could have had a chance to be Edgar-ish.
Vidro? hell no.
I used to care so much about this team, and they’ve slowly taken every heartbeat of hope away from us. Every memory of the guilded M’s age (which, let’s be honest, wasn’t that long– about 95-02.)
And while they’ve never rebuilt with quality from within, they’ve held playable cards far too long; they’ve attempted to give us a taste of yesterdays with false hope and bad signings.
Let’s harken back to Gormon Thomas, Jeffrey Leonard, Kevin Mitchell… I’m reminded of Major League, “He was an all-star with Boston.”
“Wish we had him 2 years ago.”
“We did.”
“Four years ago, then.”
Seriously, how can Bavasi justify the string of contemptable manuevers he’s recently had? How can we even give a pretext that this helps the team? How? By destroying any shred of care and desire for those of us that have slowly floated away in the past 3 years or so? I used to write a Mariners Blog, for chrissakes, now I barely even care.
Are we forever bound to perpetual mediocrity? Will we ever get value in a trade again? I feel like I’m watching a Twilight Zone episode…
I feel used. Raped. Like we time-warped to 1985 and I’m too young to realize my team was the laughingstock of the league.
Now my team isn’t a laughingstock, it is a deplorable waste of money talent and utilization of resources, and the manager is as unoriginal as they come, the GM a blundering village idiot, that despite meaning well continues to slowly choke the life out of the franchise we so love.
I can’t believe nobody has mentioned this—-
We traded Carlos Guillen for nothing, only to trade talented players for an older worse AND MORE EXPENSIVE version of Carlos Guillen.
That was the move that started Bavasi’s tenure, this is the move that will end it. Full circle, in a dreadfully ironic and destitute way.
>>80’s joke>>90’s the strength and hope of youth>> 2001 power team, developed>> 2002-03 fading team >>> 2006 joke.
Agreed msb. And that you have to watch a lot of film, and exercise in between at-bats, and stretch, and make hitting a dedicated art, that requires extreme patience and lots of hard work. I hope Vidro doesn’t approach this in a “gee, now I can take it easy without having to do defense drills for hours!” mentality.
Given an injury history, Vidro needs to condition often and intelligently (in ways that decrease rather than increase the chances of a problem). I loved Gar, but I really am not ready to once again watch every DH at-bat wondering if our man just blew something out running to first. Oh well.
I hope they now trade Jose Lopez for Jose Lima.
And Felix Hernandez for Orlando Hernandez.
I want to bribe J.J. Putz into taking a shit on top of a Wii at home plate on opening day. While wearing an XBOX 360 hat and a shirt that says asians have small penises.
I want the entire organization to go to hell, only so Bavasi, Hargrove and Lincoln will be gone sooner, and we can move on sooner.
Me? Bitter? Nah.
I have nothing against Jose Vidro, but the salary and talent exchange on this trade is embarassing.
My litmus test is that I don’t even tell my 9 year old about these trades. He is going to be upset when he gets to spring training and he is wondering where everyone went.
So who’s the Photoshop expert? Waiting for a photo of BavasiGrinch.
Everyone needs to get rid of their love affair for Snelling. Sure, he has the potential to be a plus hitter, but he’s shown no indication he can stay healthy and hit consistently at the major league level. With that said, Vidro isn’t the solution either unless he plays in the field. As a DH, he’s below league average. This has to be part one of another move for it to make sense, but as I see it this is a slight upgrade to our offense, but it’s not enough to justify the higher cost.
It is hard to imagine how Bavasi has gone to one of the gatherings and didn’t come away with anything. Bavasi and USSM can’t be any futher apart in roster construction.
M’s new motto: Younger, better and cheaper is no way to go through life.
“Everyone needs to get rid of their love affair for Snelling. Sure, he has the potential to be a plus hitter, but he’s shown no indication he can stay healthy and hit consistently at the major league level.”
Felix hasn’t yet shown that he can be a #1 starter “consistently at the major league level.”
So does that mean we should trade him for, oh I don’t know… Greg Maddux? Maddux is a proven Cy Young winner, after all!
After looking into this trade a bit more, the worst part about it is giving up Emiliano Fruto. Fruto is a good young arm, with a very good chance of being a quality set up man for a number of years… And there’s an outside chance he could develop into a closer.
I hate to point that out, but at this point the M’s fanbase shouldn’t be depressed… We should be rioting in the friggin’ streets demanding Bavasi’s big ugly head!
I found a silver lining…
The Grays (Nationals) play about 3 miles from my office.
Alas, if you foolishly continue to live on the West Coast, I can provide no solace.
Look at what the Nationals have accomplished since Karsten came to the team!!! (Kearns, Lopez, Snelling, etc.) Is Bowdon really still pulling the strings? Or was he just misunderstood by his previous bosses?!?
Hey, the Snelling-Fruto-Vidro trade opens up a lot of possibilties. 1. If the Ms are to get a TOR pitcher like Hudson, a Beltre or Lopez-plus will be needed.
2. Vidro may not be able to play 162 games at 2B but he can probably play more than half of those. Lopez has proven that he’s definitely not the 2nd Baseman of even the near future. Bloomie is around to cover what infield is necessary.
3. Even if Vidro is NOT “unselfish,” he would still be a better #2 than anyone else on the roster, including Snelling. He can spray the ball and is a true line drive gap hitter. He is the Nomar du jour for the Ms. If Nomar had not done well with the Dodgers, I don’t think there would be this deal.
4. Even if he ends up a DH, Vidro still constitutes an upgrade.
Ergo, it is an intriguing transaction. It can open up a lot of possibilities for the winter and maybe for the ST. Isn’t that what we want from the FO? To make things more interesting? To have more possibilities? It certainly beats getting one high priced guy and hope for the best-in an either a feast or famine scenario. As we can see, every team is taking chances, — and much bigger ones. Texas goes for a miracle with Gagne. Oakland hopes to duplicate their miracle with Piazza. Halos pays a bundle for Mathews Jr. The Bosox spend 51M to post an unproven starter from Japan, and the Yanks dip into Leisure World for Pettitte for 16 mil!!! Compared to them, this is a very sane deal!
Oh, please. That’s not a fair comparison to make.
He could play 81 games at catcher, too, and he’d suck there.
Lopez has proven nothing of the sort.
Bloomquist can’t hit.
Over… a potted plant?
Dave, any insight from your connections (or educated guess) on what the Mariners are thinking here?
We hated the Ramirez-Soriano trade, but this follows the Mariners mindset that 4th starters who throw 180 IP are valuable commodities and middle relivers are fungible. Likewise with Washburn and Batista’s contacts. And I see thinking Carl Everett is a leader and hits HR and drives in runs and will make the lineup and clubhouse better; they believe intangibles are worth $1M/year.
But I don’t see how you look at Vidro and see anything more than a marginal upgrade from Broussard or even Lopez if that’s the secret plan.
Posting from bottom to top here, or right to left, or what have you. Back to the Vidro trade:
The deal is pending physicals so who knows. Remember the potential Vizquel deal?
If it comes about, I like it a lot. Vidro used to be a tremendous player as an Expo. He is also an Ms type player. He’s a bit worn–banged up, so it’s a bit like the Dodgers getting Garciaparra (though Nomar is somewhat better). Vidro is just as versatile, if not more. He still can play 2B and can also be at 3B, 1B and DH too. This opens up all sorts of opportunities by possibly freeing up Lopez, Beltre, Sexson or Broussard. Even if they all stay, he can fill in any hole which one of those is bound to open up.
Someone said, “Vidro is what Lopez MAY become one day.” Lopez has some upward potential but his first half last year was a fluke. He is not currently an All Star. He is also not really a second baseman. He is also a junior version of Beltre with similar shortcomings at bat. Remember, the one that hit behind Ichiro did well at the expense of the other?
Vidro is a doubles hitter—35 to 50 most years. He may not be as crafty as Stan Javier or Omar Vizquel, but he should be able to augment Ichiro better as a #2. He can also be a fairly solid #3 if needed.
I am not disappointed if Snelling goes. The guy is just too much of an injury risk. Even if he is healthy and hits, he is another of the same type that Ms have in abundance–a #6 or #7 hitter. He was not able to do much at #2 when put there.
As for Fruto, guys like that are not rare. He has good stuff, not very good control and has only decent upside. The price is right for someone like Vidro.
Here’s more on Fruto:
http://prospectinsider.wordpress.com/2006/04/28/scouting-report-emiliano-fruto/
If you look at his basic stats, yes, it appears his control needs to be addressed… He walked 21 in 45.1 innings last year in Tacoma… And in 2004 he walked 37 in 68.1 innings at San Antonio, but at that point he was what? 20 years old?!?!
Good God. By the way, you’ll also notice his strike out total was pretty high those two years…
Don’t be sad, be mad.
except that everyone says he can’t play second anymore. Maybe 1st in a pinch.
#40 — do we really think he is 22?
DMZ: Lopez has proven that he couldn’t hit in the second half of the season.
Vidro does not play catcher, but given Snelling track record with injuries, he should probably be moved to ball boy.
The way this team played last year with Snelling in the 2-hole resembled a potted plant, so your metaphor is apt. Yes, Vidro will be an improvement over a potted plant.
Finally, Bloomquist hit better than Snelling did last year.
Uh huh, that’s true if you believe that Hargrove continues to get him to put the ball on the ground. Lopez is a good player when he hits like Lopez. Hargrove harping on him to stop hitting home runs and ground out over and over (and praising him for this) means that the real Lopez, the guy we saw in the minors, the line-drive hitter, isn’t at bat.
A, no
B, neither’s Vidro
And people harking about a irrational love affair with Snellig should get rid of their otion that this is all about Snelling…
It wasn’t the straw that actually broke the camel’s back….it was the collective weight of the pile that finally surpassed the threshold by adding the final straw….
Avg: .250 to .247
OBP: .360 to .320
SLG: .427 to .299
There’s no way any reasonable person could conclude that Bloomquist hit better than Snelling last year.
Sooo whaddaya got? RBI? Bunting ability? Clutchiness?
I just don’t like the continuous raping of an already thin minor league system. All of these moves involving trading our young cheap guys for older, more expensive and not much better older guys, appear to be out of a desperation to win now, rather than a shrewd consideration for the health of a franchise.
Really? You can look at Lopez’s minor league performance and still say that?
He came up as a SS. The transition to 2B shouldn’t be too difficult. Plus, he can’t be any worse than Vidro is at this point in his career.
Sure, he’s hit in that range in the years he’s been healthy enough to play 140+ games – which is exactly 4 out of 10 seasons in the majors.
Yeah, you’re right there. There’s not much value in actually getting on base at a .360 clip or slugging a bit better than Vidro did last year. Good thing we got rid of that guy.
So it’s Hargrove’s fault that Snelling didn’t hit worth a lick??? Maybe Vidro could also use that as an excuse for being too old. Oh man, that Frank Robinson added YEARS to my life.
Hey, Vidro won’t be playing second full time, but he can play there is called upon to do so. How many positions can Snelling play? Sans crutches preferably.
Who said Snelling didn’t hit a lick?
That’s pretty funny. So we should ignore the first half of the season because it was a fluke but we should accept that the second half was the real thing? That’s quite the statement to make. Given his minor league track record, I’d say the first half was more likely indicative of his potential.
It appears the FO has now spent the 20M that was budgeted for 07 for player acquisitions. I feel the team, as it is now, will only win 80 games in 07. This latest signing(Vidro)cannot be the last trade can it? This deal has to be a prelude to a major trade, doesn’t it? Still no 15 game potential(SP)winner and no one added to hit 20+ Homers and 90 RBI’s in those two vacant positions we had (RF and DH)this off season. We would have been better off signing Huff for 3/24 because he can DH,play 1B or 3B, instead of spending 6M/year on Vidro for a 32 year old DH only.?????? What is Bavasi thinking?
Is Kungweihan Chinese for Dave “Softy” Mahler?
I don’t know… Did a plane really fly into the Pentagon on 9/11? Did Jesus really raise Lazarus from the dead?
So what? He’s 24? 25? 38? We’re going to need someone to pitch the 6th 7th and 8th innings for the next two to three years. Even with the high walk count he looked to be a prime candidate.
This is a wake-up call, the Ms ARE desperate to win, and win now. The flip side of that coin is that for too many years the Ms held on too long to cheap young guys with potential that crashed and burned as soon as they hit the majors.
Are you doing satire? You can tell us, it’s okay.
Dave Clapper: If you don’t tell anybody I’m Softy, I won’t tell anybody that you’re Cindi Lauper.
Well guys – I think I’m done. I’m a long time reader (3 years), but don’t often contribute to the chat. The info has always been thought provoking and the site has a nice community behind it, and although Dave can get a little testy at times – it’s all in good fun.
as you can probably tell, this is a break up note. You see, I’ve found someone else over in Oakland that really makes my life more fun. So after 33 years with the m’s, I feel like we’ve grown so far apart that it’s best just to keep going in our opposite directions. It’s sad, but this horse is dead, and I’m tired of it.
Good luck Derek, Dave, Jeff, and JMB – I hope good things come of all this work you put in.
cheers…
p.s. Look at the silver lining – a least Doyle will possibly be given a chance to succeed. He deserves it.
Feel about the trade the way you want. But, I can’t believe all the people who are going to jump ship over Chris Snelling, a guy who couldn’t break the Mendoza line in September and K’ed a third of the time. To them I say one thing, “You must not have been good fans to start with. Good-bye.”
One thing is sure. The Mariners will lead the league in guys eligible for the ‘Comeback Player of the Year’ award. Guillen, Vidro, Ramirez. Now, who’d I miss?
My satire, your slapstick. We could take this show on the road. I thought the DMZ was a demilitarized zone.
Snelling had the potential to hit if they just considered using him at DH and paying his measly salary. Vidro has the potential to decline and will cost us precious dollars that could have been used to pick up a power bat or more importantly a real starting pitcher.
At the end of the day this organization sucks right now and we have to chew on a shit sandwich for who knows how long.
The only sense I can make of Bavasi’s moves is this: he had a 3-part deal in place. He finisehd the first two (Soriano for Ramirez, this steaming pile), and then found the third gleefully laughing and taking it back. “Did I say Johan Santana for Ramirez, Vidro, and Sexson? Silly me, must’ve meant on my Playstation. See ya”. Thus, Bill’s left holding the bag, calling the meetings “miserable”.
Other than that, there is just no way ANY of his moves this offseason can be justified. At all. (And, I include the Jose Guillen signing, which I did not like – short contract was a good idea, yes, but to the wrong player).
Teh. Mariners. Suh-suh-suh-svck.
Well, you’re not losing a dime, so have fun playing with some other person’s money.
I gotta say — I haven’t written about the whole emotional side of this, but if you can’t consider the possibility that perhaps it’s the good fans who are most familiar and attached to Snelling, or know why at least the other side thinks so highly of him, well, I don’t know why we should consider your opinion seriously.
This is the stupidest, and funniest, thing I’ve ever read on USSM.
This is the kind of thinking that proves how far we have to go in getting supposed “baseball fans” to understand the game they think they’re watching.
Pathetically, Bavasi, now officially the worst GM in baseball, probably agrees with Kungweihan.
63. At first I was willing to consider your opinion, but the more you attempt to bait people the more you are exposed for being petty and argumentative for no reason. If you have something to discuss, then do so – otherwise leave it alone.
Derek, please save this thread now! It seems as if this thread has been taken over by sports radio call-in folks!
I’m not sure if it’s even worth my effort but…Snelling makes league minimum, is 25 years old, he has limited power, a patient approach at the plate, plays decent OF defense, and has an injury history. Vidro is on the wrong side of 30, is a slap hitter, is set to make $16 million over the next two years (not counting the 09′ option), has a recent injury bug, and is pretty much done playing the field.
Just looking at the economics of the two players. If Snelling goes down you are out league minimum per year($320,000ish), if Vidro goes down you are out $6,000,000/yr (minus what the Nats pick up). For players that offer very similar skill sets at the plate the risks just don’t equate to the rewards.
Never mind Fruto is the cherry on top of this turd sunday of a trade!
Yeah, I’m sure this was the problem, not the exact opposite problem of holding on to old expensive guys who are ‘proven MLB talent’ who crashed and burned as soon as they hit the Mariners lineup.
You’re an idiot. (or a comic genius)
Kungweihan…If you think this trade wasn’t horrible…or even think it was better than that, then I ask you…
What MORE would you have given up if the Nationals would have paid for all of Vidro’s salary for the next 3 years??? Would Jones or Clement and / or Morrow been enough?
Vidro career ave = .301
Snelling career ave = .237
Huh? What team have you been watching? For the past ten years the M’s have traded away most of their good young guys for next to nothing (ahem… Jose Cruz Jr., Derek Lowe, Jason Varitek, Carlos Guillen, Freddy Garcia… To name a few off the top of my head).
Trying to “win now” is a horrible philosophy, and will only work if you have a gigantic payroll… And even then it’s risky and not really prudent. Even if only a few of your young guys pan out, it’s still a better way to go about things because you usually get them at their best and for a cheaper cost.
Of course it doesn’t help that the M’s haven’t drafted well the past few years.
I keep seeing comments along these lines, and it sadly reminds me of the joke about the optimist kid who gets a giant pile of horse manure for Christmas and shovels through it saying “there must be a pony in here somewhere!”
Nope, no pony here. Vidro is our DH for the next three years.
Given some of the quotes that suggest Vidro will play in the field (1b, 2b, 3b) once a week, I assume that Lopez and Beltre will not be gone. If either of them go, then they are undermining their plan to acquire groundball pitchers who will benefit disproportionately from the M’s above-average infield defense. I have to assume that Broussard will be moved for a bullpen arm. If he isn’t, Broussard should start corresponding with Petagine about how to stay sharp while getting only 1 AB per month.
I also lay some blame with Grover. Grover would not have given Snelling much of a chance to play. Maybe Bavasi did Snelling a favor? Any chance that Reed now ends up on the bench. While a worse hitter than Snelling (who deserves a chance to play everyday), he would make a more effective fourth OF.
Lefty Grove’s career ERA was 3.06. Would you rather have him or Andrew Miller on your team next year?
Some of these guys are gonna have to think about that…
We could go the Mr. Burns route and start digging up deceased all-stars…
I can’t believe that not one of all the smart people reading this blog has figured out Bavasi’s devilishly clever plan: namely, he’s lulling the other 29 general managers into believing that–based upon two shockingly stupid deals–they should take pretty much any deal he offers them. It’s like he’s playing chess and has offered up a couple of pawns bacause he’s got a much more valuable piece in his sights. It’s so clever that nobody here has even thought of it.
And besides, if it doesn’t work Hargorve’s always got WFB to play everyday after Vidro and/or Guillen gets hurt, and what’s the harm in that?
DMZ — You can take your Lefty Grove, I’ll take a Pud Galvin. Good for 450 to 500 IP per year. Talk about an innings eater.
I hear Lefty’s fastball isn’t what it used to be.
It’s a wee bit depressing that people thing you evaluate players with all of… I dunno, 200ABs in the bigs based on batting average. On top of the depressingness that the Snelling departure caused, of course.
Incidentally, you could tell Doyle can hit by… get this… watching him hit. Not hard at all.
All these deals say that Bavasi thinks he needs 85+ wins to keep his job, no?
I don’t think this was a great trade on either talent or potential, but…
…why the obsession about the salaries? The difference between what Snelling makes and what Vidro makes should be relevant to the guys in the Mariners’ front office who are writing the checks, but why is the attitude here that cheaper is always better? Did baseball institute a hard cap for salaries?
This isn’t fantasy baseball, where teams have $260 to fill their 23 slots. Seattle can spend as much or as little as it wants. If the M’s bean-counters don’t care about the monetary difference, why should I?
Sure, except that their ability to manage their set budgets directly affects the quality of the product they put out for us.
You can say they shouldn’t have a budget of x, sure. But as long as they do, and they squander it, how they squander it is important.
No.
All these deals say that Bavasi is a fucking idiot who can’t evaluate talent.
The obsession, if there is one, is about getting value for what you pay for.
Maybe Snelling and Fruto were caught performing an Eiffel Tower with Bavasi’s daughter or something.
Mr. Bavasi, what you’ve just done is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Okay, a simple “wrong” would’ve done just fine, but…
Gorman, Kungweihan, and all with similar opinions…I get it that you think Vidro is a good player this year and perhaps further…
BUT, since you believe that, you must also believe there is as good a chance that Darin Erstad, Shannon Stewart, Aaron Boone, Phil Nevin, Vinnie Catilla, and hell even Jeff Cirillo, and many others who have performed in the past are also capable of re-capturing thier forms of 2000 to 2004 and being very productive players this year and perhaps beyond. Bavasi could have signed 3 of the players above for less than $24 million for 3 years, and still kept the Fruto and Snelling….Wouldn’t doing that have made more sense??
From Capitol Punishment, a Nationals blog:
The sad thing is that Bavasi has wasted so much energy, payroll and personnel on filling his freaking DH spot! In the past year he’s done the following:
1. Signed Carl Everett – old, declining player
2. Tried to fix the Everett mistake by trading prospects for 2 DHs (both of whom stunk with us and 1 has since been released)
3. Traded 2 more prospects to sign another old, declining player (Vidro) for 2 years, $12M
4. Prediction: Will try to fix the Vidro mistake by trading 2 more prospects for another declining player.
Bavasi makes finding a DH the hardest thing for a GM to do. Other GMs must be laughing.
ouch
the model of “success” for the mariners is the orioles. Kinda competitive, but definatly not going anywhere.
Wait, I just figured out what’s really going on.
This is all just an elaborate test of the USSM servers. They determined that they needed a catastrophic event to make sure everything is rock solid, so they spoofed some stories, called in some favors and this is all just a hoax to make sure the site is running well.
I’m right, right? Do I get a prize?
Ha! I… Love you man…
*holds back tears*
Someone on the baseball blogosphere who actually cites watching baseball…
*breaks down and cries*
I don’t care… If the mighty Frank Robinson can cry, so can I.
I saw him in one game… and for the first time I saw a real hitter. Great eye, bat on the ball, watching the ball all the way in, excellent strike zone, the kid can flat out hit. I haven’t seen many Mariners like him. He is a talented kid. One game is all it took last year. I had read about him on this site…and never seen him play. It was worth the price of admission to watch him hit. Now he’s gone. My 21 year crush on the M’s is dead. I’m hurt… I cried yesterday like a big baby. I’m still in mourning…. this site should be BLACK. Bavasi… what the heck have you done?
The mariners website just keeps getting better…now they are going to play croquet. That’s it…these guys are good at croquet not baseball. That’s why they traded for them…
If you really need to win 85 games in 2007, taking on a lower risk of injury helps you to do that. Bavasi has reduced the risk of injury with these two trades. Bad as these trades are because they sacrificed wins in 2008 and beyond, the team is now more likely to win 85 games in 2007.
While agreeing with you that Bavasi is one of the worst GM’s, these trades were made so Bavasi could keep his job.
What??? Snelling???? I thought he was no longer a Mariner? “Thought to be in a deal???” *praying..it doesn’t go through*
I don’t agree that Vidro reduces the risk of injury for next year. His body’s been giving out on him. Did Edgar ever get faster once his hamstrings started to go?
This is a puzzling point that I haven’t seen discussed much. My wife, who also grew up here (and is a Mariners fan by default) has been trying to get back into following the Ms in the last couple of years. When I told her about this, her reaction was “I don’t know if I’ll bother watching next year–he’s one of the reasons they were interesting to watch.” When we’re trying really hard as fans to grasp something to keep our interest in this team as the losing continues, it gets whisked away in the hopes that we’ll catch “lightning in a bottle” with an ex-2nd baseman with bad knees who’s starting his first stint as a DH.
85 games…that’s wishing the glass is half full. WOW. If these guys perform worse than they have… we’ll break the record for the most losses in history.
Injury risk of Vidro at DH
Injury risk of Vidro at DH “is less than” injury risk of Snelling in the field. I think that is correct.
Edgar began to cope with his hamstrings. He knew the risk was high so he probably coped in different ways. Vidro is also likely to cope as his body ages. Snelling’s hell for leather style is likely to not change until he gets older.
I guess Bavasi’s thought process is that after Rich Aurilia, Scott Spiezio, Pokey Reese and Carl Everett all did huge belly flops during his tenure, Jose Vidro’s SURE to be a winner.
Hmm…
Johjima 31
Sexson 32
Lopez 23
Betancourt 25
Beltre 28
Guillen 31 (instead of Snelling, 25)
Ichiro 33
Ibañez 35
Vidro 32 (instead of Broussard, 30)
So, basically, he’s managed to make the team older , with more players on the wrong side of 30, WITHOUT making it less injury prone (since Vidro and Guillen don’t have good injury histories).
Way to go, Bill.
And Edgar may have ran slower in order to stay healthy. Ballplayers start coping with injuries in different ways in order to keep the bat in the lineup. I hope Vidro can learn to do this.
Forget his talented hitting… the reason he was hurt is because he loves the game and leaves it all on the field every time he goes out. That, more than anything was a good enough reason to have him stay. That’s an intangible that you should look for in all your players. Goodbye Doyle. :’(
I will continue to follow him. He’s just a great ballplayer. How sad.
You guys just don’t get the brilliance of Bill Bavasi. This was all necessary to build a championship team. My cousin’s cousin has a girlfriend who walks Bill Bavasi’s neighbor’s dog and forwarded me an email that says tomorrow BB is trading Jose Lopez for Brandon Webb & 12 Million. Next Week Richie Sexson is headed to San Diego for Jake Peavy and Raul is headed to Detroit for Bonderman. Right? Right Guys?
Oh, and the BEST part? Every single one of the over-30 players on this team is going to be back in 2008 if they play regularly (since Guillen’s option is, I believe, based around playing time).
Just so you get an idea, let’s say there’s a 10% chance for each of our players that they’ll get injured/collapse into a Cirillo-esque black hole (meaning 90% chance that Ichiro stays healthy, and so on for each player).
The chances that this happens to NONE of our players in 2007, assuming 90% for each player? 1-(.90^5)=53%.
Meaning odds are fairly high we’ll be carrying at least one boat anchor contract into 2008.
Really, Bill, thanks a lot.
This just absolutely sickens me to no end. I honestly don’t know if I can watch or care about the team anymore. Yeah, maybe Snelling gets injured again, but with his salary being so low, and throwing Fruto in on the trade? The whole front office is slowly throwing every good part of the team away.
At age 32 I would take Lefty, no question. He won 25 games that year.
Injury risk of Vidro at DH “is less than” injury risk of Snelling in the field. I think that is correct.
Possibly, except, you know, you COULD always play Snelling at DH to minimize some risk.
Instead, you took on the years 32-35 of a guy who’s faded since age 28, in a ballpark that has a habit of totally hosing imported hitters, who isn’t likely to be a good-hitting DH even IF healthy, and paid $20 million for the privilege.
Also, Edgar could hit before he moved to DH- he won a batting title there- and he’s a very extreme outlier in terms of his career path. Very, VERY few hitters peak after age 30 the way he did, and there’s no evidence that Vidro’s that kind of hitter.
I’m really glad that Graham mentioned “just watching Doyle hit”. I’m no master scout, but I’ve played a lot of competitive baseball, and the first time I saw Doyle play I had an instant man-crush on him. He was an absolute oasis in a desert lineup of free-swinging “luck” hitters. I gotta believe that anyone who questions his ability based on small sample size stats lines like batting average: 1. Has no grasp on statistical or observational player analysis, and 2. Should be posting on a different board.
Good Luck Doyle! You were so out of place on the M’s anyway, – here’s to you thriving under management that recognizes and appreciates talent.
So I forget…How many career NL guys who have been traded to the Mariners since Safeco opened have seen their BA%, OBP%, or even SLG% stay the same…let alone return to their levels of 2 + years ago…
Perhaps this has been mentioned here, but I heard this morning that the M’s are potentially extending Vidro’s contract for a third year. Is that right?
If so, putting aside the trade, the M’s are overpaying for this guy…clearly so by the third year. Add that to the trade and it is just a kick in the pants!
Am I crazy…but why not just sign Bonds? Two years, 36 million should have been enough (its an overpay…but as I’ve mentioned…we’re overpaying for Vidro). He’s going to outperform Vidro, won’t play the field, and doesn’t have the problem of lost Snelling and Fruto.
Yeah, we’ve talked about this. The 09 option pickup isn’t confirmed yet, but it’s pretty widely mentioned as happening.
What is the point of Bavasi “rebuilding the farm system” if he is trading it away for Vidro, Ramirez, and a shit sandwich?
Even the mlbtraderumors.com site has it right… they are trying to be nice about it.
My oh my! The Mariners are quickly becoming the Seattle National Dumbasses! Just when you think it couldn’t get any worse than Ho Ram for Soriano … it did.
You know… there’s this gal that lives in Portland that has connections. She has experience hiring people with lead pipes… She’s not that far away. A simple phone call is all it’s going to take.
The reasoning behind this trade could be as simple as this:
Bavasi wants to surround Ichiro with outfielders that have plus power. That’s not Snelling.
As for Fruto. He’s fat, his delivery features terrible balance and is pretty non-repeatable. He does strike guys out, but he walks a ton too, and I don’t see that going away. That, and his delivery and weight make him a significant health risk going forward.
Is it a terrible trade? You bet it is, and in more than one way. But the M’s aren’t giving away future superstars or anything. Everyone here is hung up on what he *might* be, though to this point Snelling has managed 189 PA spread over 5 years, and hasn’t produced at the major league level yet.
I’m 100% in favor of firing Bavasi, but the hand-wringing regarding this deal is waaaaay overdone.
Bavasi has to have some kind of stake in these other teams success. These trades are too random and lopsided for there not to be something fishy going on. The players we’re trading our young talent for are players that other teams have been desperately trying to get rid of.
So there you go – Bavasi is some sick abomination born of Isiah Thomas and Pete Rose.
Someone (that is, someone with more time and also more analytical skills than me) should do a “Best Case Scenario for the 2007 M’s”.
And I don’t mean unrealistically optimistic, I just mean like… What if Vidro stays healthy? What if Beltre finds a steady groove and performs all year? What if Felix Hernandez really emerges this year? Etcetera, etcetera…
Obviously not everyone can max out their performance, but teams do “come out of nowhere” every now and then and surprise even the most astute of baseball pundits.
So what would it be like if Horacio Ramirez gave the M’s 200 innings with an ERA around 4.00? And what if Jose Guillen and Raul Ibanez each put in a year of .500+ slugging?
I don’t know, it just seems like there is a lot of doomsday type talk, and a lot of certainty that each one of the Mariners, Ichiro excluded, are going to have down years, get injured, or just spontaneously combust.
Again, I’m not saying fans should be unrealistic… I’m just saying.
I’m not so upset about the trading away of Snelling and Fruto as I am of the M’s bringing in a player for a position that we didn’t need to fill outside of what we already have and for a far higher cost than what we needed to pay.
We already have a starting 2nd baseman and shortstop. Didn’t need another one. Bloomquist and/or Morse can spot start to rest any of the infield/outfield positions.
We didn’t need a DH. Ben or Ibanez (or Snelling) could do that, and being lefthanded bats they’re better for Safeco. Maybe they felt they needed a righthanded DH option.
I just don’t like the idea of trading for an aging veteran whose best days appear to be behind him as he hobbles around on gimpy knees and hammies and paying him $6M+ a year for the next few years. That money could have been spent elsewhere.
I’m not one of the huge “Doyle” fans, so trading him is not a big reason for me to oppose the trade. I just don’t understand taking on money for a non-needed player and getting rid of 2 younger hopefuls.
This deal has the stench of “I FUBAR’d the Winter meetings, so I better make some deals now to show that “we’re players”".
Sorry, she lives in Washington state and works in Portland…
I don’t speak for everyone here but putting Snelling aside, this still shows how little the organization seems to be capable of making changes in how they build a roster, and specifically learning from past mistakes. How many easily replacable, relatively highly paid, declining “proven veterans” need to be brought in before someone realizes they might as well light that money on fire?
Bill F. Bavasi must still work for the Angels.
Sooooo….who are our candidates for the next “USSM knows better than the front office” player?
On the negative side we still have WFB, so that sides taken care of.
Snelling getting traded is going to leave a void around here — who’s going to carry that torch now?
He’s secretly trying to make the NL better… Think about it… The Diamondbacks, the Dodgers, and the Nationals are all better now…
128 – Nobody respond to this post. Whoever we name, he’ll be traded before the end of the week
I kind of agree, but I think the hand-wringing is more a cumulative effect.
I’ve got it! The M’s management heard they should have that guy in the Bay Area as their GM, so just before the winter meetings Bavasi was killed and secretly replaced with…
Brian Sabean
Seriously here not looking for Bavasi is an idiot comments. What the hell is he thinking? Can anybody step in his shoes and figure out what he is thinking? Obviously, we all disagree but please someone try for me so I can try to feel better?
BAVASI: hmm “I trade Soriano of Starting Pitcher” he’ll eat innings, that might help” OK atleast you can see what he was thinking when making this bad trade
BAVASI: hmm ” I trade young hitter/pitcher for aging 2nd baseman with no pop in his bat, WE SHOULD DH HIM, but atlest the 6-9m over next 3 years we pay him doesn’t sound like that much money, and he was an All Star” WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING BAVASI
Next moves: Sexson traded, Zito signed. Broussard plays first against righties and Vidro is at DH, Vidro plays first against lefties and Morse (or WFB) is at DH. Does this make anyone feel better?
(I didn’t think so)
What’s the under/over for the number of runs the Ms score next year?
If Bavasi had some master plan, and was clever enough to pull it off, you’d think he could get a much better player than Vidro for those two players, or at least get Vidro for a corked bat or something.
[No]
Most free agents: “I came here because I wanted a chance to win”
M’s acquisitions: “I came here because they’ll let me play everyday and no other team will”
Corner Outfielder A:
Minors – 322 games
.327/.401/.478
————–
Corner Outfielder B
Minors – 487 games
.312/.396/.476
They’re both age 25…
My suspicion is that Bavasi figured he had two of player B, Chris Snelling. Player A is Jeremy Reed.
Again…it’s just a little “think along with Bavasi” fun.
EC,
I’m trying to make sense of Bavasi’s moves. If there is less injury risk in 2007, then it is more likely that the team reaches 85 wins in 2007 (and Bavasi keeps his job.) Bearing in mind that WE know that these trades reduce the chances of having a good team beyond 2007, that may not be Bavasi’s concern. Rightfully, he doesn’t care about 2008 if he thinks this is his last chance.
#133: My personal opinion is that this is driven by two factors:
1) Hargrove’s preference for veterans
2) Bavasi’s belief that DH’ing can reset Vidro’s career arc significantly upwards
The first point applies to the “Why not just keep Snelling?” line of thinking. The move makes sense only if you believe Hargrove has no intention of making Snelling his DH.
The second point applies to the “Why Vidro, and not some other bat?” line of thinking. There are a ton of bats out there, many of which had better 2005-2006 seasons, hitting-wise, than Vidro. The move makes sense only if you believe that Vidro is the rare hitter that actually improves in his early to mid 30’s.
So I have to assume that Bavasi talked to Hargrove and figured, hey, since he’s not going to play Snelling except as a fourth OF, and since Broussard didn’t light Safeco on fire with his post-trade hitting, I’m going to get a DH upgrade, and I’m going to get Vidro because I’ve studied him, watched film, and believe he’s going to put up much better numbers as a DH than he did as a second baseman.
That’s a lot of limbs to walk out on, for sure, but it’s the only way this makes sense to me.
Where are these 85-win, let alone 80-win predictions come from?
129. Don’t forget the Braves.
Bavasi wants to surround Ichiro with outfielders that have plus power. That’s not Snelling.
- Snelling has decent power in the minors, and
- That’s also not Vidro. He doesn’t have particularly good power, and is in fact a downgrade from Broussard.
So why make your team weaker and older by subtracting a younger player, so you can play a decent-hitting middle infielder at DH?
Is it a terrible trade? You bet it is, and in more than one way. But the M’s aren’t giving away future superstars or anything.
The problem is that not ONLY are Snelling and Fruto the more talented players, but Vidro’s contract is another one in the series of Boone/Cirillo/Spiezio contracts that will likely bog down the roster for years to come, when at some point before it expires it becomes clear that the player isn’t going to perform up the the money we owe him, necessitating either eating part of the contract (Boone/Spiezio) or taking someone else’s garbage and disguising the fact that we’re eating the contract (Cirillo).
We are paying millions of dollars that won’t be available in the future to upgrade the roster to downgrade the roster. THAT is why you’re getting handwringing, because unlike Everett or Guillen’s signing, where if they completely flame out it’s not a big deal come the offseason, at least, this is the kind of trade that will haunt the team for years.
This isn’t quite Lowe/Varitek for Slocumb, but it’s bad in its own way.
You have to wonder what Ichiro thinks about the roots of the tree now. Hmmm. Wonder how you say WTF!!! in Japanese?
…and of course Bavasi could care less because he realizes that if there isn’t significant improvement he will be gone anyway.
My hands are a wringin’.
I’ll return to Mariner games after Hargrove and Bavasi are gone.
In the meantime, I’ll see if I can get any minor league games on the radio.
You know, there is a positive side to all of this.
Snelling jerseys on sale!
I wish the people on this forum (by far the best crowd of fans I’ve yet found) all the best, but I no longer want to offer up my tender feelings for this game (and for certain players who, even in the past several horrible, galling, years of mismanagement, have kept me as a solid Mariners fan) up for abuse by a management team that isn’t even wacky in its stupidity, but simply insultingly, demeaningly – I still can’t find the exact word for the hurt I feel -arrogant? Nah… Anyway, whatever it is, I’ve never, never felt so uselessly betrayed about something that I know doesn’t MATTER-matter.
I root for teams, not franchise names, and when Ichiro came to the Mariners I found that it was exactly the sort of team I most enjoyed following, with a mixture of characters and talent that lacked that indefinable tight-assedness that spoils my love of many fine teams. I really enjoyed it, even from the cellar, while hope remained (Felix offering that hope, as did Beltre – even with the bad, bad start).
The Snelling/Fruto trade is somehow that final straw. It it too, too, too much (Matsuzaka and Cabrera turn out to be the end result of Bavasi’s dealings? I will apologize then). Even should this awful assemblage of used parts be pulled into the winning column by Felix, Beltre and Ichiro (Johjima, Lopez and Putz are not forgotten), the organization does not deserve it, and the fans have no reason to remain loyal to their mismanagement.
None.
Yow! I’m glad I liked the A’s, even when infuriated at not being able to beat them. It won’t be the same, though.
Ichiro! Please, even given the love of the fans in Seattle, do not sacrifice a day after the 2007 season making money for these abusive businessmen! (But PLEASE don’t end up on the East Coast! I know you will never join the Cubs, after all.)
I will check in for Ichiro and other player news, but will logout now, with no intention of returning.
Again, thanks to the people who do the work here, and to a group of baseball fans who did not annoy or repulse me every other post!
The keeping Reed instead of Snelling, could be logical. Maybe Reed plays well as the 4th OF and we trade him next year to the Mets who still own Doc Goodens rights when he gets out of Jail. I should have just stuck with Bavasi as an idiot.
I’m trying to make sense of Bavasi’s moves. If there is less injury risk in 2007, then it is more likely that the team reaches 85 wins in 2007 (and Bavasi keeps his job.) Bearing in mind that WE know that these trades reduce the chances of having a good team beyond 2007, that may not be Bavasi’s concern. Rightfully, he doesn’t care about 2008 if he thinks this is his last chance.
Except the net effect of the decisions on the roster is that he’s added THREE gimpy, older and expensive players (Vidro, Ramirez and Guillen will make something like 15 million or more), while trying to “mitigate” the risk of injury by dumping Snelling and Soriano. In other words, he’s not even taking the correct approach to mitigating injury risk (which would be don’t sign or trade for players with injury history).
Terrible trade. Organization loses talent overall. Current and future commitment to more salary, reducing options now and in the future. Also indicative of the front office’s (in)ability to see value in free/cheap talent. USSM’s poster child for “We know better than the front office” is gone.
yadda yadda yadda
Same themes, different day.
Gotta relax and figure it’s going to be one long ride that more or less continually approximates this until Bavasi is canned. Then you gotta cross your fingers and *hope* ownership brings in someone significantly more compentent.
Look at the bright side. There’s still a major league team in Seattle, and it’s nice to go to games when it’s nice and sunny outside. The team could be better, but then the team could about *always* be better. It’s not like we’ll go to games on a nice summer day, sit in a dome, and look at a team that’s going to win 65 games.
Peace out pinball it was nice posting with you.
I would have rather we kept the players we had and added Hudson for 15 Million.
Can we really be sure that Bavasi won’t be around 2008 and beyond? The front office has already proved that they have a high tolerance for losing/mediocrity by retaining Hargrove. One (great) thing about baseball is that teams can have decent seasons in spite of managerial incompetence. With the other teams in our division not improving, the M’s are a couple “career-years” and creative marketing ploys away from an 80-85 win season with slightly increased attendance. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re dealing offseasons like this for years to come.
oops. posted this in the wrong thread at first.
I turned on mlb.com (D-Mat press conference with 100 million reporters in tow due next) just as the prior show was in the midst of trashing Vidro (Corey Schwartz: ‘I mean get a DH, not a guy with a history of leg injuries and a declining OPS the last five years’) The Meche deal still wins the bad deal crown, though, in their minds.
Theo still looks about 12.
#155– can’t add Hudson if Atlanta won’t give him up.
Hey, at least the official annoucement hasn’t been made. The longer it takes for an announcement the better.
Mulder, Zito, Schmidt, Penney, Hudson, anyone…really that is a capable #1 thru #3. Would have been better than this…
it isn’t that simple.
Mulder can’t actually pitch until mid-season due to shoulder surgery.
Zito is looking for bright lights and/or 6/100M+
Schmidt obviously wanted the NL & a comfort level of guys he knows.
Penny is only going if Colletti gets someone like Vernon Wells.
Hudson was removed from the trading block.
I think this was a solid move. Vidro is going to be a good fit for the lineup. He gets on base, hits well from both sides of the plate, and is about as versitile as you could expect from a DH. He could hit anywhere in the lineup and be OK.
The cost to get him was marginal. Snelling has shown flashes, but is nowhere close to a sure thing, and didn’t have a place to play. I would have liked to see what Fruto could do, but he was not a critical piece of the bullpen (like Soriano was)and his upside is limited. Bottom line, I think we all loathe to see young (and cheap) talent with potential leaving an organization ranked second to last in prospects, but this trade DOES make the Mariners better next year.
Could this be a pretext to a Sexson deal, instead of Broussard? Vidro gives the lineup another lefty, but Ibanez is the only other lefty that can be shifted around in the lineup. So now Broussard platoons at first for more balance? I hate to see the run production of Sexson go, but if he lands a #2 starter…
Trade Speculation-
I have heard through a source that we have traded Brussard for Todd Coffey. I can neither confirm nor deny this but that is what I am hearing.
I have googled this but haven’t come up with anything to support this yet.
The cost to get him was marginal. Snelling has shown flashes, but is nowhere close to a sure thing,
I don’t get these comments.
The skill in developing players is NOT in focussing on the sure thing; all the competent people and most of the lame people can do that. Where you get ahead of the game is looking for the flashes among the youthful and developing those flashes into bright, steady contributors.
Basically, what you’re saying is that you don’t want to do it the smart way.
Snelling has shown flashes, but is nowhere close to a sure thing, and didn’t have a place to play.
As opposed to Vidro, who of course can play second since we need a second baseman (WTF?), and is by all means a sure thing, since he has no injury history.
It’d be interesting to see BP’s Breakout/Improve/Collapse chances for both Snelling and Vidro.
I like the Coffey trade if indeed you have heard correctly.
FWIW, the Fans have Vidro as the worst-fielding 2B in baseball.
If I was Ichiro, I’d be ASKING for a trade.
I think Broussard… know what? It doesn’t matter what I think. Let’s just see how ugly this gets… maybe Bavasi can pull this offseason out of a nosedive… but I SERIOUSLY doubt it.
What’s the over/under for number of times “over/under” is misused today?
162 are you kidding? “The cost to get him was marginal”??? It wasn’t just Snelling and Fruto, we are paying Vidro $12 million for the next 2 years and he has an option for 2009! PLUS we lost the talented younger guys who don’t get paid much more than the minimum. How is $6million a year for 2 years for a guy who will not hit much better than a freely available talent at Safeco just a marginal cost?
And with his stats already declining, it’s crazy to assume he’ll hit and get on base like he has in the past. Safeco kills hitters coming over from the NL – this guy has spent his entire career in the NL East. Look at what it did to a good young hitter like Beltre – you really think Vidro is going to hit well here? I am very afraid he will be useless at the plate, exactly like C-Rex was. And Hargrove will play him every day until he’s fired.
Vidro isn’t playing 2B. Why so worked up about his defense? I bet he doesn’t play more than 5 games at 2B.
I would be shocked if Snelling developed into anything close to the production Vidro has proven. I am thinking Vidro at .285/.350 this year. In the 2 hole that is very solid. The chance that Snelling approaches those numbers is simply much more risky. If you prefer higher risk/cheaper reward than I can see why you hate this deal.
168. We might as well trade him now for some decent pitching, because I don’t see how or why he’d extend with the Mariners beyond this season. Not unless he gets part-ownership, has Bavasi and Hargrove whacked by ninja, and….heyyyyyy, this could work out after all.
I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.
172. Yeah, I’m sure Vidro will kill in his first season in the Al, just like Beltre did.
#155- I agree. If the FO just did a Zito signing and nothing else this off season we are a better team for 07. Even more important we still have Soriano and Doyle in uniform for 07 or to package together with others for another acceptable starter or corner outfielder.
I would be shocked if Snelling developed into anything close to the production Vidro has proven.
This is an amazing statement. Proven when? Why do people think an up and coming player is more risky than a declining veteran? They are willing to overlook the risk of decline. Me, I’d rather buy low and sell high.
Snelling wasn’t exactly tearing the cover off the ball, with a .216 average… in Tacoma. He is what he is. A player who has shown flashes of being a hitting machine, but hasn’t been able to stay healthy or consistant. Think Marc Newfield.
Um, what you THINK he is may not actually match up to what he actually IS.
I called Fruto “fat” and nobody reacted.
#178 just called Snelling “Marc Newfield”.
Here’s betting calling Snelling “Marc Newfield” is deemed 1,000 times worse than calling Fruto “fat.”
Yes, those 241 at bats last year in Tacoma mean more about Snelling’s chances of success than his other 1600 minor league at bats.
How should those 241 at bats be weighted?
#177 well said.
Not with the two ton weight that some posters are using.
I actually looked up Marc Newfield’s stats in order to write a rebuttal to that, and he was a pretty darn good minor league hitter. He also holds the distinction of being traded twice with Ron Villone.
#175 — yeah kill like AL Martin & Jeff Cirillo.
He is a field of energy… A luminous ball of string-like fibers… He is… A MYSTERY!
Marc Newfield, age 21, full season at AAA Calgary – 349/410/593
Geez.
Corner Outfielder A
Minors – 322 games
.327/.401/.478
————–
Corner Outfielder B
Minors – 487 games
.312/.396/.476
———-
Corner Outfielder C
Minors – 502 games
.306/.375/.493
A: Reed
B: Snelling
C: Newfield
#185 — Through that same link you can get Marc Newfield Milwaukee Brewers Game Used Wristbands — starting bid: $8.99.
Newfield would have been a fine player if not for a lot of injuries. Some guys get hurt early and then go on to great careers. Others start off great and healthy and then have careers cut short by injuries. It’s the nature of the human body.
Injury risk exists with both Snelling and Vidro. Snelling has the potential, if he’s healthy, to be a very good hitter. Vidro has the potential, if he’s healthy, to be…Todd Walker. Give me the upside.
#182 With the same weight you give his 246 AB from 2005, when he hit for .370
Look, my point isn’t under-rate Snelling, it is to expose how over-rated many posters have him. Just get off his junk. I am not saying that Snelling doesn’t have potential, but you can’t overlook his lack of production last year. Maybe he just had on off year, but don’t gloss over it just because you have this image burned into your head that he is going to be the next Ted Williams.
Anyone ready to annoint Jeremy Reed as the successor to Ichiro next year? Why not? His minor league stats are amazing! Plus, Ichiro is aging… we better buy low, sell high…
I’m not overlooking the risks with Snelling. I’m just saying there is enormous risk of underperformance with Vidro..and you’re paying him $19M for 3 years to take that risk.
#191/193 Ralph, Looking only at upside is why teams offered Meche over 50 mill. My claim is that the risk of underperformance by Vidro is less than the probability of Snelling reaching his peak potential (think Vidro in 2001).
The money issue is a valid argument, but it is $12M for 2 with a vesting option. We don’t know what the option is yet. For example, it could have a buyout or be contengent on performance. So it is disingenuous to claim 19/3. At 6 mill a year, Bavasi could do worse. Perhaps the fact that Bavasi has lowered the bar so far, is the reason I see this deal as solid.
The $50M for Meche is irrelevant. Snelling would have come cheap. The report I saw said they exercised the option to get Vidro to waive his no trade.
Vidro’s 2001 is long ago and far away. The chance of him repeating that is close to zero. The chance of him underperforming his contract, in my view, is very large — certainly over 50%.
Failing to look at risk is why KC is paying Meche $50M.
What would Vidro have to hit to make this deal solid?
What would Vidro have to hit? Vidro would have to hit both Grover and Bavasi in the head with line drive foul balls. Then I would be pleased with his performance.
He hit 319/371/486 in 2001 and 310/397/470 in 2003..i’d take that.
199- Like you have been saying, those numbers aren’t likely. Would 290/350/430 do the trick?
For 3 years?
In case people actually think the FO is listening to the negative reaction from fans, let me submit this classic quote from Howard Lincoln, basically saying that most M’s fans have no clue about baseball:
All you have to do is walk around … and talk to people in the stands. It’s apparent there are fun things to do besides baseball. Sometimes you can sit with a group of 20 or so, and there’ll be one guy with his arms crossed saying, ‘Why don’t they do this or that,’ and the rest are there for a variety of other reasons.
- HL, Oct 2005
In Lincoln’s eyes, the fans who care about how the team is built represent a whopping 5% of the revenue-generating fan base. And he may be right.
That said, when teams start losing, attendance drops, generally by more than 5% if it continues over an extended period of time. He’s nuts if he thinks he can put a bad product on the field for a long time and people will keep coming. Attendance has already started declining. It doesn’t matter how clueless you are, you still see the score on the scoreboard, and are sad when you lose.
Hey! Vidro’s declining OBP last year was better than all but 2 of the 06 Mariner regulars. So we’ve got that going for us.
Crazy trade not made (yet): The Yankees also have considered a trade for Seattle’s Richie Sexson, but in their quest to cut payroll, they have so far been willing to take Sexson, who is owed $28 million through 2008, only if there is some financial relief. The Mariners reportedly weren’t amenable to the idea of taking Carl Pavano in return for Sexson.
Link from Newsday.
Yankees “quest to cut payroll,” huh? If Cashman can get Bavasi to pay even $1 of Sexson’s salary to play for the Yankees, well, …. (gee, I can’t think of a finish for that sentence).
In Lincoln’s eyes, the fans who care about how the team is built represent a whopping 5% of the revenue-generating fan base. And he may be right.
What would get a bigger response from the majority of Safeco fans:
1) Trading a 25 year old power hitting outfielder with a good arm and great knowledge of the strike zone, and getting nothing back,
2) Cancelling the hat trick on the video screen,
3) Cancelling the hydro races on the video screen, or
4) Cancelling the monumentally stupid “disco-dancing grounds crew with rakes” show.
If you guessed “1,” you probably haven’t gone to as many games at Safeco as I have.
I’ll bet Bavasi thought like some of these commenters and figured that Snelling would follow the Jeremy Reed career path, so he traded him before we got burned again.
Reed has had 758 career at bats to prove himself, and Snelling has had just 152. Just because one outstanding minor league hitter fails in the majors doesn’t mean that they all will. Trading prospects for the reason that “they aren’t guaranteed to be good” is idiotic, especially when it’s for expensive veterans that can only get worse.
Sevenfly…While I do not think Snelling would be the next Ibanez, let alone Ted Williams…but even if Snelling and Fruto never make the Nationals 25 man roster, this trade still does not make any sense.
There are plenty of free agents out there who Bavasi could have given incentive laden contracts to that have the potential of being close to 280/350/430…like Shannon Stewart, Marcus Giles, Joe Randa, Eric Young, Darin Erstad, Miguel Cairo, Todd Walker, or even Jeff Cirillo….and would NOT have cost us ANY prospects, and a lot less money and years than Vidro.
By the way, Vidro is making an average of $8 million for the next 2 years…the Mariners are ONLY paying $6 million of that…so the 3rd year will probably be worth atleast $6 Million, if not $9+…
Would 290/350/430 do the trick?
A 780 OPS for a designated hitter, are you kidding me? That’s replacement level, or perhaps just above for someone playing in Safeco.
Vidro would have to hit 380/465 for the next two years to be worth the part of his salary the Mariners are paying, assuming he’s a full-time DH. And really about the same if he plays 2B — replacement level is lower but he’s horrible on defense at this point.
There are plenty of free agents… that have the potential of being close to 280/350/430
Not to mention Snelling and Broussard
Adam, you are correct.
#200 and #209: Would 290/350/430 do the trick?
More fuel for the fire:
In 2006, the AL batted .275/.339/.437 (at all positions). If your DH is sucking $6m from your payroll and giving you 15 points of BA and 11 points of OBP, that’s pathetic. If he’s slugging less than the AL is collectively, that’s Carl Everett redux.
Been there, done that, donated the T-shirt to the Children’s Hospital thrift shop.
I post this at the risk of the dreaded [sorry buddy] but:
Does this rumor have any legs: Broussard to Cincy for Milton?
Milton for Broussard sounds depressingly on-target for this offseason.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/miltoer01.shtml
Vidro is not a bad player at all. He could easily bump up slightly after moving to DH. To compare him to Eric Young is insulting, also I think the players mentioned in “208″ are worse and will command similar salaries. 6 million is very fair for him over the next two years…time and the details of the option year will tell the tale of year 3. Piazza just got 8.5 million to DH for Oakland, and I don’t think that Piazza is much better
Vidro is not a bad player at all. He could easily bump up slightly after moving to DH. To compare him to Eric Young is insulting, also I think the players mentioned in “208″ are worse and will command similar salaries.
Whuh?
like Shannon Stewart, Marcus Giles, Joe Randa, Eric Young, Darin Erstad, Miguel Cairo, Todd Walker, or even Jeff Cirillo….
Cirillo just signed for what, $1.5m + minor incentives? That’s, at most, 11% of Vidro, and he wouldn’t have cost Snelling or Fruto either.
Seriously, if you think any of these will demand three years or $6m per or $18m total, you’re way off the mark. Not like you’d need any of them anyway, since as you mentioned you are considering it as a move to DH, many more cheap, decent hitters would qualify to be contracted for that position.
Piazza just got 8.5 million to DH for Oakland, and I don’t think that Piazza is much better
A. An aging Piazza is still much better than Vidro.
B. Vidro costs more over 2-3 years.
C. Just because they got burned doesn’t mean we need to do the same.
I’ve missed the news for the last two days and just now read about this. I will still wear my Doyle jersey proudly. Now I must close the laptop before I void the warranty with tears on the keyboard. Depressed, I am.
This is just sad. I hope some bald headed guy who has something to do with Mariners chokes on something. I mean not really it’s just a ame, but actually really really.
So does Bavasi have a golden parachute clause built into his contract? (A golden parachute is a clause (or several) in an executive’s employment contract specifying that they will receive certain large benefits if their employment is terminated. -From wikipedia) It seems like he is trying real hard to lose his job.
Cheetah, I think you are on the right track with your criticm, but I think you are wrong about the players you mentioned. Erstad is really the only comparable player you mentioned (as a lefty, comparable OBP, a good 2 spot candidate) but doesn’t seem to be much of an upgrade. The lineup is desperate for a lefty, but the pickings are pretty slim. Burnitz is done, Finley is 41, and Floyd is too fragile/expensive. Two free agents that should have made your list is Huff and Nixon. Both a fit at DH, for a comparable salary to Vidro? Of course I don’t know if any of these players were interested in coming to Seattle, so we may never know if it was even possible.
However, I think we are jumping the gun on the Vidro contract. It still sounds to me like 2/12 mill with an option. If the buyout is reasonable, we could be looking at a 2/12.5 mill deal. This isn’t too terrible.
As for the production to expect, a .780 OPS is getting ripped as everett redux? keep in mind that everett blasted a mighty .658, broussard .709, and those are with pretty decent sample sizes. When Vidro batted in the 2 spot last year, he hit .347 with .410 OBP and .856 OPS in 193 AB’s. That was last year, not 4 years ago. I am not saying that he will do that for the M’s, but he seems like a pretty good fit at the 2 spot.
Of course the problem is that he really didn’t balance out the lineup, if all he did was replace Broussard. If Vidro does bat second, and Broussard is out of the lineup, the only 3 lefty’s would be batting in the top 4 spots. That is why I am speculating a deal involving Sexson. If Sexson lands some quality pitching, the deal makes SOME sense.
But we’d still be better off with Doyle hitting second, Fruto in Tacoma, and $12M in the kitty.
BTW, I am drunk, but if I were GM I wouldn’t have signed Guillen or traded for Vidro. I sign Huff to DH and deal Broussard, even if for prospects. I like the lineup of:
CF Ichiro
3B Beltre
LF Ibanez
1B Sexson
DH Huff
2B Lopez
C Jojima
RF Snelling/Reed/Jones
SS Betancourt
That doesn’t mortgage the future (Huff is only 29), and lets one of the three young guys in the outfield get a chance to develop without too much pressure. Huff was the only offensive signing needed, put the rest into pitching. We gotta fix that farm system and stay committed to developing our own kids. But what the hell does a drunk know…
A few snipets from the Seattle Times (SOURCE):
Also, from the same article:
To the guys running USS Mariner, feel free to delete this post and start a new thread with these quotes, or any others for that matter, from the somewhat revealing article cited above.
I finally get it….
Combine this:
With this:
And its very clear…. there are some drugs that apparently still can’t be detected by mlb’s program…
Huffing aerosol cans maybe?
I couldn’t agree more.