Day-after coverage survey
The M’s trade a young, good-hitting, frequently injured good defensive corner outfielder for a once good-hitting, now injury-riddled second baseman who, heading forward, is
– just as likely to be injured
– likely to be a worse hitter
– costs about $12m more through 08 and another ~$9m for 09
– already not a good defender at second and getting worse
If you think Vidro’s going to rebound to his old form because he’ll be able to concentrate on hitting and stay healthy DHing, well, you could do that with Snelling, get better production and save $21m over three years.
They then threw in Fruto, a 22-year old live-arm reliever with great minor league numbers, stuff, and a body that looks like he might have eaten Mateo or something.
What does the press say?
The PI wimps out and runs an AP story.
Geoff Baker at The Seattle Times managed to turn out an article that, unlike his web article that said “Another offensive upgrade for the Mariners is to be finalized later this week when Jose Vidro joins the team as its full-time designated hitter” makes a set of pretty nice points — it includes a discussion of Vidro’s poor health, and manages to point out he doesn’t compare well to AL DHs:
But even his best numbers don’t rival those of the AL’s best DH candidates. The only time he’s topped 20 homers, or slugged better than .500, came during that stellar 2000 campaign.
Vidro has also never had a 100-RBI season, though that was partly a result of batting second in the order through much of his career.
Nice. Much improved from last night, certainly. Though:
To land Vidro, the Mariners finally gave up on the injury-plagued Snelling, 25, an Australian who showed flashes of promise when healthy but has suffered from knee injuries the past five years.
They weren’t all knee injuries.
The MLB.com article is, a little shockingly, conspicously not positive outside the quotes, and even notes how bad his range got last year:
After missing more than a month because of a left hamstring injury, Vidro returned to the club on Aug. 18, and his range at second deteriorated. He had a tough time going to his left and right. It got to a point where then-manager Frank Robinson benched Vidro a few games to give Bernie Castro a shot. Vidro ended the season as a first baseman.
Speaking of mariners.mlb.com, you may wish to vote in this poll:
Not that it’ll do any good.
Jeff @ Lookout Landing had a reaction much like ours.
Vidro’s declined from his peak, and even if he’s able to remain steady for as long as he plays in Seattle, he’s a .270-.280 EqA who doesn’t play the field. That puts him in Jay Gibbons territory, and Jay Gibbons was one of the worst DH’s in the AL last season.
Heh. Jay Gibbons.
Bill Bavasi dealt a young, cheap, good hitter for an old, expensive, arguably worse one, tossing in a talented young arm and a vesting option for good measure. In no way, shape, or form could this ever be mistaken for a good idea. It just couldn’t. There’s no way.
Yup. In general, the Nationals blogs are dancing a jig, as well as our AL West opponents. I’m not saying that consensus is the truth, or that many blogs should be considered to constitute authority, but if all your enemies get together to dance on a grave and sing with joy, well, you might be dead.
For 3 years?
In case people actually think the FO is listening to the negative reaction from fans, let me submit this classic quote from Howard Lincoln, basically saying that most M’s fans have no clue about baseball:
All you have to do is walk around … and talk to people in the stands. It’s apparent there are fun things to do besides baseball. Sometimes you can sit with a group of 20 or so, and there’ll be one guy with his arms crossed saying, ‘Why don’t they do this or that,’ and the rest are there for a variety of other reasons.
– HL, Oct 2005
In Lincoln’s eyes, the fans who care about how the team is built represent a whopping 5% of the revenue-generating fan base. And he may be right.
That said, when teams start losing, attendance drops, generally by more than 5% if it continues over an extended period of time. He’s nuts if he thinks he can put a bad product on the field for a long time and people will keep coming. Attendance has already started declining. It doesn’t matter how clueless you are, you still see the score on the scoreboard, and are sad when you lose.
Hey! Vidro’s declining OBP last year was better than all but 2 of the 06 Mariner regulars. So we’ve got that going for us.
Crazy trade not made (yet): The Yankees also have considered a trade for Seattle’s Richie Sexson, but in their quest to cut payroll, they have so far been willing to take Sexson, who is owed $28 million through 2008, only if there is some financial relief. The Mariners reportedly weren’t amenable to the idea of taking Carl Pavano in return for Sexson.
Link from Newsday.
Yankees “quest to cut payroll,” huh? If Cashman can get Bavasi to pay even $1 of Sexson’s salary to play for the Yankees, well, …. (gee, I can’t think of a finish for that sentence).
In Lincoln’s eyes, the fans who care about how the team is built represent a whopping 5% of the revenue-generating fan base. And he may be right.
What would get a bigger response from the majority of Safeco fans:
1) Trading a 25 year old power hitting outfielder with a good arm and great knowledge of the strike zone, and getting nothing back,
2) Cancelling the hat trick on the video screen,
3) Cancelling the hydro races on the video screen, or
4) Cancelling the monumentally stupid “disco-dancing grounds crew with rakes” show.
If you guessed “1,” you probably haven’t gone to as many games at Safeco as I have.
I’ll bet Bavasi thought like some of these commenters and figured that Snelling would follow the Jeremy Reed career path, so he traded him before we got burned again.
Reed has had 758 career at bats to prove himself, and Snelling has had just 152. Just because one outstanding minor league hitter fails in the majors doesn’t mean that they all will. Trading prospects for the reason that “they aren’t guaranteed to be good†is idiotic, especially when it’s for expensive veterans that can only get worse.
Sevenfly…While I do not think Snelling would be the next Ibanez, let alone Ted Williams…but even if Snelling and Fruto never make the Nationals 25 man roster, this trade still does not make any sense.
There are plenty of free agents out there who Bavasi could have given incentive laden contracts to that have the potential of being close to 280/350/430…like Shannon Stewart, Marcus Giles, Joe Randa, Eric Young, Darin Erstad, Miguel Cairo, Todd Walker, or even Jeff Cirillo….and would NOT have cost us ANY prospects, and a lot less money and years than Vidro.
By the way, Vidro is making an average of $8 million for the next 2 years…the Mariners are ONLY paying $6 million of that…so the 3rd year will probably be worth atleast $6 Million, if not $9+…
Would 290/350/430 do the trick?
A 780 OPS for a designated hitter, are you kidding me? That’s replacement level, or perhaps just above for someone playing in Safeco.
Vidro would have to hit 380/465 for the next two years to be worth the part of his salary the Mariners are paying, assuming he’s a full-time DH. And really about the same if he plays 2B — replacement level is lower but he’s horrible on defense at this point.
There are plenty of free agents… that have the potential of being close to 280/350/430
Not to mention Snelling and Broussard 🙂
Adam, you are correct.
#200 and #209: Would 290/350/430 do the trick?
More fuel for the fire:
In 2006, the AL batted .275/.339/.437 (at all positions). If your DH is sucking $6m from your payroll and giving you 15 points of BA and 11 points of OBP, that’s pathetic. If he’s slugging less than the AL is collectively, that’s Carl Everett redux.
Been there, done that, donated the T-shirt to the Children’s Hospital thrift shop.
I post this at the risk of the dreaded [sorry buddy] but:
Does this rumor have any legs: Broussard to Cincy for Milton?
Milton for Broussard sounds depressingly on-target for this offseason.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/miltoer01.shtml
Vidro is not a bad player at all. He could easily bump up slightly after moving to DH. To compare him to Eric Young is insulting, also I think the players mentioned in “208” are worse and will command similar salaries. 6 million is very fair for him over the next two years…time and the details of the option year will tell the tale of year 3. Piazza just got 8.5 million to DH for Oakland, and I don’t think that Piazza is much better
Vidro is not a bad player at all. He could easily bump up slightly after moving to DH. To compare him to Eric Young is insulting, also I think the players mentioned in “208″ are worse and will command similar salaries.
Whuh?
like Shannon Stewart, Marcus Giles, Joe Randa, Eric Young, Darin Erstad, Miguel Cairo, Todd Walker, or even Jeff Cirillo….
Cirillo just signed for what, $1.5m + minor incentives? That’s, at most, 11% of Vidro, and he wouldn’t have cost Snelling or Fruto either.
Seriously, if you think any of these will demand three years or $6m per or $18m total, you’re way off the mark. Not like you’d need any of them anyway, since as you mentioned you are considering it as a move to DH, many more cheap, decent hitters would qualify to be contracted for that position.
Piazza just got 8.5 million to DH for Oakland, and I don’t think that Piazza is much better
A. An aging Piazza is still much better than Vidro.
B. Vidro costs more over 2-3 years.
C. Just because they got burned doesn’t mean we need to do the same.
I’ve missed the news for the last two days and just now read about this. I will still wear my Doyle jersey proudly. Now I must close the laptop before I void the warranty with tears on the keyboard. Depressed, I am.
This is just sad. I hope some bald headed guy who has something to do with Mariners chokes on something. I mean not really it’s just a ame, but actually really really.
So does Bavasi have a golden parachute clause built into his contract? (A golden parachute is a clause (or several) in an executive’s employment contract specifying that they will receive certain large benefits if their employment is terminated. -From wikipedia) It seems like he is trying real hard to lose his job.
Cheetah, I think you are on the right track with your criticm, but I think you are wrong about the players you mentioned. Erstad is really the only comparable player you mentioned (as a lefty, comparable OBP, a good 2 spot candidate) but doesn’t seem to be much of an upgrade. The lineup is desperate for a lefty, but the pickings are pretty slim. Burnitz is done, Finley is 41, and Floyd is too fragile/expensive. Two free agents that should have made your list is Huff and Nixon. Both a fit at DH, for a comparable salary to Vidro? Of course I don’t know if any of these players were interested in coming to Seattle, so we may never know if it was even possible.
However, I think we are jumping the gun on the Vidro contract. It still sounds to me like 2/12 mill with an option. If the buyout is reasonable, we could be looking at a 2/12.5 mill deal. This isn’t too terrible.
As for the production to expect, a .780 OPS is getting ripped as everett redux? keep in mind that everett blasted a mighty .658, broussard .709, and those are with pretty decent sample sizes. When Vidro batted in the 2 spot last year, he hit .347 with .410 OBP and .856 OPS in 193 AB’s. That was last year, not 4 years ago. I am not saying that he will do that for the M’s, but he seems like a pretty good fit at the 2 spot.
Of course the problem is that he really didn’t balance out the lineup, if all he did was replace Broussard. If Vidro does bat second, and Broussard is out of the lineup, the only 3 lefty’s would be batting in the top 4 spots. That is why I am speculating a deal involving Sexson. If Sexson lands some quality pitching, the deal makes SOME sense.
But we’d still be better off with Doyle hitting second, Fruto in Tacoma, and $12M in the kitty.
BTW, I am drunk, but if I were GM I wouldn’t have signed Guillen or traded for Vidro. I sign Huff to DH and deal Broussard, even if for prospects. I like the lineup of:
CF Ichiro
3B Beltre
LF Ibanez
1B Sexson
DH Huff
2B Lopez
C Jojima
RF Snelling/Reed/Jones
SS Betancourt
That doesn’t mortgage the future (Huff is only 29), and lets one of the three young guys in the outfield get a chance to develop without too much pressure. Huff was the only offensive signing needed, put the rest into pitching. We gotta fix that farm system and stay committed to developing our own kids. But what the hell does a drunk know…
A few snipets from the Seattle Times (SOURCE):
Also, from the same article:
To the guys running USS Mariner, feel free to delete this post and start a new thread with these quotes, or any others for that matter, from the somewhat revealing article cited above.
I finally get it….
Combine this:
With this:
And its very clear…. there are some drugs that apparently still can’t be detected by mlb’s program…
Huffing aerosol cans maybe?
I couldn’t agree more.