Friday’s news: M’s sign Burroughs
Also: Griffey broke his hand.
Pettitte’s indeed going to the Yankees for 1y, $16m.
Sean Burroughs. 3B-L, 26.
Ah, I remember when he was a superprospect, before everyone realized he hits 200% ground balls and that makes for a pretty poor power hitter. And before it was widely known that he didn’t listen to coaches that tried to help him with his swing. Or anything else.
You know he pitched an inning in 2005? Maybe the M’s scouts saw something they liked and want to use him in middle relief.
He’s a decent glove in the infield, which means, and this is at least interesting to me, that potentially he’s a direct competitor to Dobbs, who will be 28 next season. Burroughs spent some quality time on the DL last year with a back problem, but really, even the Devil Rays didn’t want him – they played Huff and Wigginton over him, and then Upton. He was DFA’d during the season, which is a sign of how little they cared about him at that point.
Here’s the thing, though: Burroughs is, and has always been, potentially a star. Without drawing walks, he doesn’t get on base enough. Without making the adjustments to his swing that coaches fell over themselves to try and help him with, he doesn’t hit well enough to contribute anyway.
For instance, select quotes from the BP annuals.
2000: The power will come, and the rest of his offensive game is already major-league caliber.
2001: Burroughs will be moving Nady and Nevin to other positions–or other cities–sooner rather than later.
2002: As expected, Burroughs’s power is coming around. [...] Burroughs is the early-line favorite for the NL Rookie of the Year Award.
2003: Burroughs can still rake, the power’s eventually going to increase, and if there’s anything to worry about, it’s the declining walk rate, not anything more mysterious than that.
(no comment on his card)
2005: Without more walks or extra-base hits, Burroughs is only a moderately useful player, and nowhere near the future star many expected.
I bring this up not to point out that BP was wrong, because especially with stathead-centric evaluation, the goalposts are always moving: if you find out that players with old skills age really badly, you can’t be as enthusiastic about the long-term future of those guys as you were the day before.
I bring this up because those were typical views: everyone saw the major-league pedigree and his raw talent.
He’s an interesting minor-league invite and possible bench player. If his failures have opened him up to listening and the M’s can get him some good people to work with, I’m willing to hold out hope, but what happens if he suddenly blossoms? We’ve got Beltre, and the DH spot’s blocked for that matter.
The chances that would happen anyway are pretty slim, of course. The list of low-walk, extreme groundball hitters who turned their careers around this late would be, pretty much, Sean Burroughs. But at least there’s some kind of possibility here, which is more than we can say for a lot of their moves.
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I lived in San Diego when Burroughs first came up and I remember watching him hit about two-dozen grounders to third in batting practice and thinking, “boy, that’s just not gonna do at all.”
Huh… you think this adds any credence to the “trade Beltre to free up money for Zito” thing Hickey mentioned yesterday?
Maybe Pentland can use his alleged superpowers (ya know, the ones he used on Sosa), to turn Burroughs in to a fly-ball hittin’ machine.
Also, Dontrelle Willis was arrested on charges of drunken driving.
The M’s will not replace Beltre with Burroughs. As bad as the M’s FO may be, they are not that dumb.
As much as I agree with you Tek, Bavasi is probably drooling all over at the chance to play one of the baseball’s best third base prospect from 2001 here in 2007.
I love stories like this one — they really point out the love affair those of us who really follow baseball minutae have with minor leaguers; and how few of those “sure things” really pan out.
It seems like for every Ken Griffey Jr. there are 10 Sean Burroughs and Jeremy Reeds. Maybe more.
The Mariners should know this better than anyone. Their pitching prospects have almost all fallen through in the past five to 10 years.
I have a hard time imagining we’ll ever see Burroughs starting in Seattle at third, unless it’s as a short-time injury replacement or something.
and Sean does give the Ms another 2nd-gen kid, and one who’s dad played for the Ms so that Rizzs can burble on about Jeff.
he has always reminded me of Cody Whatshisname from the Kirkland LL team — Webster, that’s right
Oh, Jesus, the Mariners are signing up my entire Hacking Mass team now.
I agree that the Burroughs won’t be replacing Beltre as the starting 3rd baseman, and this was an effort to improve the bench. The FO just wanted someone Hargrove can go to late in the game for a groundball.
Whenever I refresh the main USSM page and see a new update that isn’t news of us forcing 100+ million dollars down Zito’s throat I rejoice!
This looks like an interesting little side move. Thank god it’s not another huge fuckup.
6: 10, maybe more “can’t miss” busts for every one who hits? I’m not willing to scroll through the BA top-10s for the past decade, but I know those numbers are very wrong.
yay! my Chris Antonetti buttons arrived in time for Christmas
JH,
You are probably right. My number was really pulled out of thin air – probably a no-no on a site like this one with so many knowlegable guys. Maybe I’ll entertain myself over the holiday trying to figure out a real number.
Still, who was the last “sure-thing” Mariners prospect that paid off? I can’t think of one since the 90s. I’m hopeful, but think it’s still too early to say on Felix, Lopez, Betancourt, etc.
Do the buttons look good? I spent some quality time on those designs.
Did Bavasi go on vacation for Christmas. This is so unlike him — a low-risk, possible high return move.
I suspect Burroughs doesn’t turn it around and gets 300 AB at Tacoma. But if he hits, he would be a big improvement over Dobbs or if something happens to Beltre or when Vidro gets hurt. Assuming they move Broussard, do the Mariners have a major league hitter on their bench? Is it Reed, Morse, WFB, and “Rivera”.
#14. they do– I’d scan one & send you a copy, but I suspect the picture would just look like the one on the sidebar
Come on. Every year teams give NRI’s to failed/over the hill players and 90% of the time they get cut or retire before the season. Speculation and hand-wringing over an NRI serves no purpose. You can criticize every move made so far by the M’s front office this off seasion, but this one won’t worry me a bit until it’s late in spring training and if he’s still around then either a) he’s somehow found his form and looks like he might contribute, or b) someone got injured. In the case a) I’d be worried that it’s a spring training fluke, and in case b) I’d be more worried about the injury he’s filling in for.
This is not news.
And yet here you are, reading it, despite knowing there’s no hard news.
Give us a break. The M’s signed a guy, it’s a minor move that’s interesting to me, I wrote about it. It’s not as if writing about this meant that I didn’t devote a couple hours to analysis of a Zito signing.
15, actually I disagree. I think it’s exactly like Bavasi to string together an offseason with several savvy (even shrewd) moves, and then couple them with 2-3 total disasters. I think that’s exactly what we can expect from him going forward, too, if the Mariners are lucky enough to win a bunch of games this year.
The only hope that I hold out is that I used to think the White Sox were one of the stupidest organizations in baseball, hated all of their moves, didn’t like their 2005 team very much, thought they would flag in the second half and probably even miss the playoffs…and then they won the World Series. More importantly, they actually were awesome the whole time and I just couldn’t see it. And those moves that I didn’t like still look mostly bad. Podsednik really did suck, and he continues to. Trading Reed away because Brian Anderson was a sure thing doesn’t look that stupid because Reed hasn’t been so great himself, but it doesn’t look that smart either. I think Anderson’s probably the better going forward still, but the point is it’s not like I was proved wrong or unknowledgable about those moves…they were mostly either bad or not that great (Garcia was not that good for them but they very well might not have won the WS without him).
But they still won. I actually find that more encouraging than the Cardinals this year, but together I think they clearly demonstrate that we shouldn’t be too pessimistic about what will actually happen during the year. I don’t expect good things, but hey, who knows?
That said, if the M’s trade Beltre to free up room for a gigantic Zito contract, my “what-does-it-say-about-me-that-I’m-a-Mariners-fan” identity crisis will be complete.
Seems to me that the best Burroughs can hope to be — if he allows somebody other than Daddy to coach him — is someone like Dave Magadan or Rance Mulliniks, a slap-hitting platoon player who hangs around by virtue of being able to hit .300 and draw walks.
That being said, there are plenty of instances in baseball history of singles-hitting left-handed third basemen who suddenly find a viable power stroke and sustain it. George Brett comes to mind — in his first three seasons, he slugged no greater than .462 in any one year before suddenly finding it as a 24-year-old, bashing 22 dingers and slugging .532.
Way to be a jerk, jerk. It’s not like you’re paying for this service and a lot of us like to see little updates like this.
For someone who would really do well to draw more walks, it’s interesting what the approach of this organization may do to him. At least it won’t be able to screw him up much worse than he already is. I don’t think he is a bad pickup at all as insurance or even to be a bench player. Who knows what might happen to your roster.
Derek, speaking of those buttons, would it be possible to have an Antonetti coffee mug (cup) made available? I ask because I really don’t know how CP works – if they charge additionally for each type of product you want available or what. Buttons and bumper stickers really don’t apply to me (I work at home so not many people would see me with a button, and I don’t drive). I do have friends over for coffee/cocoa/whatever all the time though, and that would be sweet.
If it’s not worth the cost of putting it up for sale though, then don’t mind my question.
This does not bode well for the “Hunter Brown For Third” club, even if I might be the only member.
well, if Rotoworld’s summary is close to true, you won’t have to worry about Young Hunter…
Sorry, DMZ, I wasn’t criticizing you, I was criticizing those already posting the Burroughs/Beltre speculation. My aplogies for not being more clear.
Bender – Sorry you think I’m a jerk. I should have concluded with something more along the lines of “This is not something to be overly worried about’. Once again, the internet’s failure to include vocal intonation gets me in trouble.
Not a bad guy to have around in AAA. He’s not really blocking anybody at 3B, is he?
We don’t really have anybody on the big league roster with a formidable glove at 3rd if Beltre were to go down (Bloomquist and Morse don’t count…), so there’s opportunity there.
Yeah, I meant it half joking anyway. Reading what I said makes me sound like the real jerk.
13: the real question is who was the last “sure thing” Mariners prospect, outside of Felix? I guess you can say Reed, though he never really projected as a star in any way.
Offensively, we haven’t really had a surefire top tier hitting prospect since Jose Cruz Jr, and seeing as he’s still in the league in his 30s, I think it’s pretty safe to say he panned out.
#22. Derek, speaking of those buttons, would it be possible to have an Antonetti coffee mug (cup) made available? [...] Buttons and bumper stickers really don’t apply to me…
I wonder if CP could produce some decals that could be put on anything that doesn’t yelp back at you…coffee mugs, slick Pee-Chee type folders, the window of your front door, or even the windshield of your car?
i think the burroughs move is a good one…low risk..and while i think that willie and morse are decent, rivera is terrible, and while dobbs has a ton of heart, he hasn’t made himself a fixture on the bench…the bench was something that needed addressing, and bavasi made a good deal…for once…
If Burroughs makes it on the big club this year to start the season, even on the bench, we are in very serious trouble. This is either Foppert part two, or a situation like Benji Gil where he can be flipped for cash at the beginning of the year. Hopefully the latter.
It’s kind of unfortunate. When you lack any talent evaluation skills whatsoever, you’re reduced to gambling on failed prospects like this.
If Burroughs makes it on the big club this year to start the season, even on the bench, we are in very serious trouble.
If it were Dobbs or Burroughs, would you go with Dobbs? You could say either one would be troubling, but I think very serious trouble is a bit of an overstatement. As for me I’d prefer Burroughs any day.
i agree with josh…burroughs over dobbs…and i was thinking about foppert this afternoon…i wonder if he’ll get it back…
Even more troubling is the mindset that it should come down to a choice between the two. Neither should make it. Neither should be on a Major League 40-man roster. Thankfully, Burroughs isn’t on ours, yet. The idea of giving playing time to Tampa Bay’s trash isn’t at all appealing.
If it comes down to a choice between the two, the answer is an enthusiastic “no”. There are literally hundreds of players who could/would contribute more. Many will be on the waiver wire at the start of the season. Just like Dobbs last year.
It’s an interesting question. Burroughs is a better defender at third, though with Beltre you shouldn’t be that concerned about having a defensive sub there. Dobbs may actually be the better hitter right now, though, as strange as that is to write. We’ll have to see where Burroughs is, offensively.
I guess I’m the only one who is getting sick of having the yearly “NRI spot” on the opening day roster. It’s time for that to end.
Can’t wait for that mythical Dobbs/Ordonez/Burroughs battle in spring training. It will bring back some great memories of 2005’s Gutierrez/Gil/Santiago war of attrition.
beltre is the best defensive third basemen in the league…he’ll never be replaced for defense…
duhhhrrr…. never said he would….
Think of it this way: Beltre’s hamstring acts up. Or he’s got the flu. He’s out entirely or you want to DH him for a couple of games. Whatever.
Given the M’s bench last year, you had a couple of bad options (barring playing Lopez there for a couple games). Depending on when in the year it was, you had
Bloomquist: no hit, okay defensively
Dobbs: more hitting, also okay defensively
Morse: hopefully still more hitting, a butcher defensively
At least Burroughs gets you a replacement glove.
i was just seconding your point about tre’s defense…my bad…
Doh. Man, this has just been a bad day for reading tone all around in USSM comment threads. My fault.
Hey, it’s been a long year and a longer offseason (proportionally speaking), everyone’s tired, and whether you’re going to have a wonderful Christmas or otherwise, it takes time and energy. Very few of us are going to be sharp. Let’s just give everybody grace, including ourselves, and let it ride.
As for Burroughs, I think this is a case of our backup 3B being in Tacoma. He shouldn’t be on the bench in Seattle, not because he’s not good enough to be there, but because if there’s any chance at all for him to turn his career around, he needs at-bats, and he’s not going to get them in Seattle. But he gives us depth in case of injury, and some small chance that he turns into a Magadan, a Mulliniks, an Iorg, which is a useful player — and some smaller (but still real) chance that he turns into the player everyone expected him to be. After all, even Dave McCarty had a couple good years as a DH.
Sean Burroughs absolutely kills Curt Schilling. He pings line drives off him with seeming ease. I’ve never understood why and I’ve tried because I’ve thought that if I did I would understand something both about what’s right and wrong with Burroughs swing and Schilling’s pitching. Does he do something different with his swing when facing the high fastballs that Schilling typically throws?
Sean Burroughs absolutely kills Curt Schilling. … Does he do something different with his swing when facing the high fastballs that Schilling typically throws?
Sorry to answer a question with a question, but how many AB does he have against Schilling?
Right now, sight unseen, I would reather have Whats-his-name-new/different-guy over Dobbs. Even a slight chance of having a little improvement on the bench would be a good thing.
The M’s seriously need more good things happening in their way.
I’m sure he’ll make some small market team a great GM one day….
We need another “underdog” to root for. Mine was Snelling. Guess now its Dobbs. Line drive hitter like Snelling. Given a chance, he’d be a good backup in the infield/outfield and as a spot DH when you know who goes down.
so danks got traded to the white sox for mccarthy…was really hoping that rumor about reed for danks would play out…guess i’m an idiot for hoping bavasi could have pulled that off…so know what do we do with reed and broussard?
Burroughs off Schilling, lifetime:
12/29, 1 2B, 0 3B, 0 HR, 3 RBI, 0 BB 5 K.
Big whoop. Sexson is 333/364/619 off Sexson in 21 AB, Ichiro is 077/077/077 in 13 AB. Who cares.
…off Schilling…
If Dobbs is the answer the question is wrong. Look elsewhere for a new underdog. Dobbs is no Chris Snelling.
Did they really sign Burroughs or is this a rumor? I don’t find it anywhere in reports. Hope so, good pickup…less at bats for Willie.
I’ve never understood why Dobbs was taking up a spot on the 40 man roster. This move just confirms that there is basically free talent that replaces whatever he brings to the team.