M’s make meaningless trade
The M’s have traded Yorman Bazardo to the Detroit Tigers for Jeff Frazier, a 24-year-old outfielder who is a longshot to be a major leaguer. Frazier was a 3rd round pick in the 2004 draft out of Rutgers University, and wasn’t horrible in his first two years of professional baseball, but didn’t exactly light the world on fire either. When given an assignment to the high-A Florida State League last year, he hit about as poorly as anyone in baseball not named Tuiasasopo. His .228/.279/.346 line, as a 24-year-old in A ball, is horrible, even for the pitching friendly environs of the FSL.
Now, one bad year doesn’t end a career, and scouts have always liked Frazier, so maybe he’s a late bloomer who just needs to get out of a pitcher’s park to remember how to hit. But, it’s not likely. The M’s made this deal after designating Bazardo for assignment last week (to make room for Jeff Weaver), as they figure Frazier is better than losing him on waivers. Bazardo had never impressed them after coming over from the Marlins, so they’d have taken anything they could get for him.
In this case, what they got is a 24-year-old outfielder who couldn’t hit A-ball pitching. You’re unlikely to ever care about this trade again.
Comments
USSM uses and recommends
I had just logged in to get somebody’s thoughts on this trade from the M’s point of view and this post was sitting here when I finished the registration process.
As a Tiger fan, I had already known I didn’t care about losing Frazier or Larrison (DFA’d to make room for Bazardo) but was curious as to what Bazardo brought to the table. It may be more than Frazier or Larrison, but it doesn’t seem too likely to be much.
So frustrating…when I was 10 years old I learned not to ‘trade’ a Ken Griffey Jr card for a Pete O’Brien card that had been used in the spokes of a bike for a week…even if you think you need to get rid of a Griffey card and get another card in return, it doesnt mean the deal is worth doing.
We are getting rid of potential for someone who seems to have peaked as a 21 year old. (I guess after letting Snelling and Choo go we gotta restock our farm system in the OF)
We throw away potential like we have a vast farm system. I guess Frazier might be able to take T.J. Bohn’s place in AAA in a few years…thats a relief!
I saw a lot of Bazardo when he was in Greensboro with the Marlins organization, and he used to flash a 97 MPH four-seam fastball and a decent slider. He’s battled some arm problems, however, and his velocity is now 89-92 without a lot of movement, and his slider has never really developed. He’s basically a generic minor league arm without any kind of outpitch.
There are hundreds of guys in baseball like Yorman Bazardo. He’s the definition of replacement level. If his velocity ever comes back, you might have a league average reliever on your hands, but I’m not sure that hope is worth a 40-man roster spot.
Losing Bazardo isn’t anything to lose any sleep over.
Dave- I agree his potential has been nipped a little bit, but he still is young and has more upside than an OF in our system that can’t hit A-ball pitching in his mid-twenties. The way we go through arms, I just think holding onto him would have been a better choice. Agree to disagree I suppose.
It seems to me that if Bazardo was really valuable they wouldn’t have kicked him off of the 40 man roster. Also, Bazardo would have been the one called up mid-season (rather than Mark Lowe) last year if Bazardo were lighting the world on fire.
Like Dave said, I think this is a “nothing to see here, keep moving” kind of deal when it’s all said and done.
Bazardo is pretty money in last years video game though…have to trade him now…lol
that just made me laugh.
Dave- I agree his potential has been nipped a little bit, but he still is young and has more upside than an OF in our system that can’t hit A-ball pitching in his mid-twenties. The way we go through arms, I just think holding onto him would have been a better choice. Agree to disagree I suppose.
Well, he took up a spot on the 40 man roster and Frazier doesn’t, which is why the M’s made this move. They didn’t say “we like Frazier more than Bazardo”. They just decided that he was the least valuable player on the 40 man roster.
If they had DFA’d Cesar Jimenez, Sean White, Michael Wilson, Travis Blackley, or Ryan-Rowland Smith, you’d have said the same thing. But one of those guys had to go. They decided Bazardo was the worst of that group. You might like him 1% more than one of those other guys, but none of them have a real future in major league baseball, so it’s not worth getting worked up over.
If you’re going to criticize the M’s for dumping Bazardo, I think you ought to tell us who they should have gotten rid of instead of him.
#10-Well, obviously someone other than a 24 year old outfielder that has no potential, that’s for sure.
Dave-Not worked up…just seemed meaningless to DFA Bazardo out of most on the roster
I think you (Dave) got it right with Jimenez, Sean White, etc would have been better candidates to DFA…he seemed like a better young pitcher than most on our 40-man roster.
Well, obviously someone other than a 24 year old outfielder that has no potential, that’s for sure.
Given what Dave has said about Bazardo, why? There doesn’t seem to be anything there now that would warrant it.
(Though it may say something more about the team’s evaluative skills prior to their acquisition of Bazardo….)
We have been notorious for being terrible at evaluating talent…so we’ll see how this deal works out down the road. I suppose I hope neither pan out to be much (which is likely), but I sure hope Bazardo doesn’t flourish in the Tiger uniform while Frazier becomes the MVP of the AA All-Star game…that’d be unfortunate.
When I was digging around trying to decide whether the Tigers had duped the Ms again, I went to minorleaguesplits.com and found out that Bazardo had below average K and ground ball numbers. I was thinking along these lines because of an article over at Baseball Analysts, and when I realized this put him in what they called the Southwest quadrant, I pretty much quit thinking about what’s his name.
I think you (Dave) got it right with Jimenez, Sean White, etc would have been better candidates to DFA…he seemed like a better young pitcher than most on our 40-man roster.
They’re all the same. It’s nitpicking to try to figure out which one of that group might have a future in MLB and which ones won’t. They’re all the same guy, just with different names. If Bazardo has an MLB career, it’s not because the M’s scouted him poorly – it’s because sometimes, replacement level relievers take a step forward. Think Jon Huber.
When picking between replacement level relief prospects, the decision doesn’t really matter.
Seems like Bavasi has gotten a lot of credit for restocking the farm system, but if you leave out the draft picks (admittedly a major omission) and just look at the prospects he’s gotten in trades, it doesn’t seem like there’s much there. Bazardo was supposed to be the top guy in the Villone trade. The guys we got for Freddy have disappointed. Foppert hasn’t panned out and the guys we got for Olivo and Torrealba are gone. As everyone knows, Santiago for Guillen was a joke. It sure seems to me that we’ve been on the short end of just about every trade Bavasi’s made. I guess we can give him a bit of credit for making the team younger and not dealing the top tier prospects (or signing Gil Meche to a mega-deal), but it sure would be nice to pick someone else’s pocket for a change.
Faulting Bavasi for the Garcia trade is a bit harsh. Everyone here was jumping for joy at the time.
11 – I asked who you think they should have gotten rid of, not who you think they should have acquired.
Do you have any reason to think any organization was willing to give the M’s more for Bazardo than a “24 year old outfielder with no potential”?
Someone had to come off the 40-man roster. If not Bazardo, then who?
#18 I hear you, but I’m just saying that when the trades don’t work out and there are none that do, maybe it’s time to go in another direction (Are you listening Howard? Chuck?). Bazardo is just a bit more minor evidence, not that any more evidence is really necessary.
even though Frazier is nothing to get excited about, Dave, would you care to qualify how he would fit into the future 40?
#21: just cross out Bazardo’s name and put Frazier in a similar slot…
re #9, I guess that means there’s little hope left that Blackley will have a meaningful career. That’s too bad.
#22 – I’d say this new guy is more in the “Suspects – Role Players, Several Years Away” category than the category Bazardo was in.
Dave…I already don’t care much about this trade. But let me ask…how does someone like Bazardo get on the 40 man roster and not have much potential. Why are we carrying Cesar Jimenez, Sean White, Michael Wilson, Travis Blackley, or Ryan-Rowland Smith on the 40 if they don’t amount to much? I thought the 40 is supposed to be your best players out of minor league options that you’re trying to protect. Why do we have so much garbage on it?
#25 – I think I can take a shot at this one. From what I understand, a player that you draft does not have to go on the 40 man roster for protection purposes until a certain amount of years/time. Also, all signs point to the M’s farm system being in the lower 25% of all MLB farm systems in terms of total talent. Unfortunately, there’s probably not anyone better than they need to protect than Blackley, White, etc.
25- Sounds like you answered your own question.
’tis true…when a quarter of your 40-man could be thrown out as ‘garbage’ your farm system is in trouble…Go Mariners!!
BP just did an a piece on the Ms system and Bazaardo wasn’t even on the fringe of the radar. Overall, the piece was hard on the system but it certainly did suggest there was a decent chance for the system to develop several useful players.
Okay…I understand that. I guess where my confusion comes in is how do I keep hearing that the one thing Bavasi has done is re-build the farm system? I don’t see it. What has he really accomplished?
Sadly this may be the best trade the M’s made all offseason.
Chris Kahrl rated our off-season moves over at BP. Apparently the team “isn’t irredeemably terrible”.
30. Great, great question. Its an Oz kind of thing,don’t look behind the curtain. Even if your top recent picks have shown nothing. Big illusion to think there are any every day players, beyond Jones.
‘Bazardo’ is more fun to say than ‘Fraizer’
that’s all.
30: Bavasi has only had the farm system for what… 3 seasons now? Any talent he picks up would still probably be in the lower levels and do not need to be placed on the 40 man roster. I’m not saying the farm system is grand, but just using the 40 man roster as a measuring stick is not a good idea.
Basically, the Tigers just jettisoned a bullpen guy *that may develop into something useful* but who was out of options and essentailly refilled the role with a guy who has options.
Seems like in that algebra, the name isn’t nearly as important as the ability to function as a lottery ticket…
Bazardo might as well of been named Tralfaz Zanzabar….
‘Bazardo’ is more fun to say than ‘Fraizer’
that’s all.
This does open up the avenue for “Down goes Fraizer! Down goes Fraizer!” moments, though.
Should a GM be hired to rebuild the farm system anyway?
Top Ten Mariners Prospects (as ranked by Kevin Goldstein on BP) acquired under Bill Bavasi:
#2 Jeff Clement
#3 Brandon Morrow
#4 Tony Butler
#5 Chris Tillman
#7 Carlos Truinfel
#8 Justin Thomas
#10 Juan Carlos Ramirez
Number of these guys on the 40 man roster: 0
So, yeah, #35 is right, examining the 40 man roster isn’t going to show you the talent Bavasi and Fontaine have brought into the system.
The M’s just seem to be like the “Bazardo World” spoken of on Seinfeld. You have the Sox on the East Coast making good, intelligent moves, and the M’s on the West Coast making bad, unintelligible moves. We are the “Bazardo Sox”!
Okay, okay…It was just too fun to pass up!
On the farm system / Bavasi re-build issue: So it’s too early to tell. I had forgotten that Bavasi’s tenure has only been 3 years. It seems like it has been f o r e e v v e e r r r!!! Doesn’t it?!?
“I had forgotten that Bavasi’s tenure has only been 3 years. It seems like it has been f o r e e v v e e r r r!!! Doesn’t it?!?”
Yes. Put it this way: If I believed in purgatory, this would probably be it.
Frazier’s BABIP last year: .252
His BABIP in 2005 when he posted pretty good numbers: .323
Does that difference mean anything at all?
Boy those are some sexy Rutgers numbers aren’t they? Easy to choose him first round… one of those “what happened?” kind of picks eh?
Hey I just read the Attrition Wars piece over all the teams that was done a couple of years ago. Good work! Thanks.
Remember, 2001 was only 6 seasons ago, and we didn’t collapse immediatly, and Gillick always leaves a team just before the collapse.
So Bavasi can’t have been here for more than 3 years.
I try to ignore anything Christina Kahrl or Joe Sheehan have to say about the Mariners; everything they say about the M’s is really ignorant and mean-spirited for the most part.
Frazier is a no hit good arm OF’er.
Maybe they can turn him into a pitcher?
If not, maybe he can play a little middle infield and take Bloomquist’s spot in a year or three.
OK, I’m really reaching here for something.
Sheehan can be an ass (though he likes the King), but I’ve always enjoyed Chris.
I think I can safely say she’s my favourite transsexual baseball analyst.
Quick! Gun to your head you have to chose one;
Who do you start the year with at DH?
Mike Piazza
Shea Hillenbrand
Jason Botts
Jose Vidro
You have 5 seconds… decide!
The real tragedy is that the Mariners may have missed out perhaps the best collection of “Y” surnames in baseball. I had been hoping that somehow the Mariners could have grabbed Yamid Haad from the Giants in the Winn trade.
If all of those guys panned out, the Mariners roster would have included Yuniesky, Yorman, Yorvit, and Yamid.
That’s these Mariners for sure: the Y’s. As in, Y won’t ownership clean house? Y do they think this constitutes a reasonable offseason? Y is Hargrove still managing? Y does Bavasi still have a job? And most importantly, Y am I still watching this team?
Speaking of Hargrove (and, in passing, Yuniesky), Heyman at SI picks him as the MLB manager most on the hot seat, and gives 3-1 odds he won’t be managing the M’s next year. So 2008 has promise, anyway…
BTW, since nothing is happening on here right now, and I brought it up: we already know the USSM consensus choice for Bavasi’s replacement. But who would you like to see replace Hargrove? From that same Heyman article, here’s a list of many of the available names (including a few I had completely forgotten about — Cito Gaston, anyone?)
Piazza.
Jesus God… Piazza really? Guess I should throw prices up there as well… Piazza went for 8.5 mil. M’s are paying about 6 mil to Vidro. Hillenbrand is around 4 mil. Botts the league min… but try not to use the fact that you have Botts locked up long term influence your decision… THIS year which DH?
I’d have to say Vidro… and that give us the best DH in our division.
Hey, you only gave me 5 seconds….you’re expecting deep thought?
I would take Piazza. Very similar OBP, but more power, more RBI. Plus, Piazza is much tougher than Vidro. Vidro’s always complained about being hurt while playing 2nd Base, and all Piazza did is play hurt at Catcher plus produced. And Piazza isn’t 20 pound over weight. And didn’t cost us 2 prospects. Plus, made 1.3 million dollars last year.
Vidro cost us 2 prospects, 6.5 million this year, almost 7 million next year, and 8.5 million in his last year.
We could have used that extra money on Vidro and signed Aubrey Huff. Who is a left handed power hitter—WHICH IS WHAT WE NEED!
I am still so angry about the Soriano Trade. I feel will go down as a top 5 worst Mariner Trades of all Time–Carlos Guillen, Freddy Garcia, are by far worse.
I agree with Dave. This deal may be meaningless, but the M’s got something. I saw this over at Sporting News and it made sense to me. This organization has other areas of needs that are just more important. Namely for the 2007 season. Starting Pitching.
Looking at the stats… I could see where you would derive this. But, here is the deal. In many waiver wire trades there is really no winner/loser. In this case neither team made out better than the other it was a case of excess parts.
Yorman Bazardo has a good arm… I’ve seen him in the minor leagues pitching at or near 92-94 but he has gradually lost velocity since he was traded he used to be at 96-98 and profiled as a closer (he was originally a Top Marlin Prospect when Dombroski was the GM). Don’t forget he was traded by the Marlins to the Mariners for Ron Villone, but he just hasn’t been consistent enough to crack the rotation or the bullpen. He probably is better suited to the bullpen but the lack of velo and lack of a consistent second pitch(his is the changeup) put him in the middle relief area. At this stage the strength of the M’s minor league system is the back of the bullpen. Jon Huber, Travis Chick, Mark Lowe, Eric O’Flaherty and Julio Mateo are all arms that I would judge to be well ahead of Bazardo. Not to mention Stephen Kahn and Brandon Morrow who both throw 98+. So, ultimately the decision as I see it was this… Is Yorman Bazardo’s spot on the 40 man roster worth more than the aforementioned or any other player currently on the 40 man? I guess the answer was he was the most expendable. The rotation need the spot for Jeff Weaver.
Frazier was well regarded by the Tigers. I don’t see them jumping for joy. Just 2 years ago they ranked him as their 3rd best prospect. Funny how a bad season makes fans forget. If Jeff Frazier plays last year like he did the previous 2 this trade doesn’t happen, and rightly so. Having seen Frazier he has tools scouts like, power, speed and arm strength. If you are a Tiger Fan you have to know that you don’t give up on that combination until it’s proven the player just can’t play…. see Craig Monroe.
In any case… the trade in a nut shell was the Mariners couldn’t risk losing Bazardo and getting nothing. Remember, a team that had a dismal season, say the Devil Rays or Nationals would have high waiver position. And could claim him without giving back anything….Or scenario number 2, make a deal with a team lower down for a position of need. Based on the Tigers excellent year last year they never would have been in position to make a waiver claim without giving up a player that the Mariners liked and thought would help fill a need. I’m sure they discussed deals with several teams.
This was the anatomy of a designated for assignment, waiver wire deal.