Adios to One Stiff, Bienvenidos to Another.
According to Geoff Baker, we’ve seen the last of Rene Rivera. Hallellujah.
Jamie Burke has made the team as the backup catcher. We’ll see how long he sticks, but anyone not named Rene Rivera is an upgrade.
Also, Jeremy Reed was optioned to Tacoma. The team apparently feels fine with Broussard as the backup corner outfielder and Bloomquist as the backup center fielder, and there’s a legitimate chance that Hargrove The Great carries 13 pitchers on opening day that frees up room for the (dis)organization to carry Rey Ordonez. No, I’m not kidding.
110 million dollar payroll, and the best these clowns can do is Rey Ordonez, Jamie Burke, and rushing Brandon Morrow to the show.
Fire them all. Antonetti in ‘08.
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I’m glad they saw what just about everyone saw, Rene Rivera isn’t an adequate backup ML catcher.
Good for Burke.
Jeremy Reed was sent down as well. Who’s the backup outfielder now, Bloomquist, Boussard?
this is RAD! best news in the last couple days…this makes my day…now hopefully they’ll do the same with Morrow…keep the fingers crossed…
Wow..so there is a baseball god. And I’m happy from the point of “An Oregonian” on the M’s roster.
This is huge news…Rivera is worse than bad.
But who takes Reed’s spot on the bench? Baker mentions that Ordonez is still in camp. That can’t be good.
But kudos on Burke.
i’m surprised about reed though…willie and brousard better keep playing at the level they are playing at now…i hope white makes it instead of morrow…it would be a shame to lose him…or even keep huber up…
Oops, didn’t read the 13 pitchers part of the post. It answers my Reed question. That can’t be good either.
Good move on keeping Burke! A+
As for sending Reed down, I guess they will be keeping Morse then? Who else could make the team as the 4th OF?
well, they did play broussard in right and left recently…and willie can spell ichiro in center…
i’d rather have morse for his versatility on defense and his better bat, but reed is faster and left-handed…negative is that neither are very good…pick your poison…
You guys need to re-read the post. 13 pitchers. Three-man bench.
Fortunately, Bloomquist has the grit, hustle, and versatility of three players. so I think they’ll be cool.
i didn’t see that in the baker article, so i’m hoping dave is wrong on this one…no offense…
I think we can safely say that “playing with a three-man bench” is a suitable metaphor for Hargrove’s mental capacity.
I will go with Dave. Baker has not been around the M’s beat long enough to ascertain how Grover thinks, or doesn’t.
Well its not like Grover would use the 4th man on the bench anyways…
I want a new manager.
i’m sure dave is right, but i’m just hoping he isn’t…lol…
Yeah, just what the M’s need – too many arms to go to (the likes of Mateo et. al and/or a Morrow mis-use) and no real versitility off the bench. Once Hargrove predictably starts Willie too much, the team will end up in the same place we did last year – no flexibility when it counts (and at such a times in the game when Willie is actually useful – traditional utility man situations).
Sometimes, people believe their own hype. But when you believe the hype you make up about someone else – that’s just sad. According to the M’s, Wee Willie (ya know, he shares common anatomical name, how cool?) is the best utility player in baseball. With such an asset on the bench, the M’s can flout conventional wisdom all the way to the pennant (you know, the pennant on the wall next to the best seat in the bar for the WS on the wide screen).
If we know that Hargove has a propensity for not using his bench (properly), then what is the big deal about carrying a so-called extra pitcher? It seems to me that spot can be used to determine if someone is ready for the show or not.
After all, according to most commenters in here, we aren’t close to contention.
I’ll go on record predicting 74 to 82 wins for the next 10 years. This organization is pathetic. Their ability to judge talent – from calling willie ‘the best utility…’ to running a 13-man bullpen out there to trading for and paying Vidro a lot of money to be a bad player – is continuing to make it very hard for me to care about this team. I’m going to Edgar’s Mariners Hall of Fame night this year – but I may not actually stay to watch the game.
Thirteen pitchers.
Huh.
Unless they carry 12 and leave Adam Jones on the bench to rot.
Yuck.
Let’s just say, for sake of argument, that there’s a collision in center field between Jose Lopez and Ichiro. Both need to come out of the game. What do you do?
actually, we are close to winning the division, with it being wide open…the angels have no offense and are getting killed with injuries right now…losing zito, thomas, and payton will hurt the a’s, plus the managerial changes…and the rangers are the rangers…it’s anyone’s pennant…now advancing in the playoffs, that’s another story…
dave, you’d have to put willie in center, move vidro to second and lose the DH…sucksville…they need morse on the bench…
Dave, We would punt! Oops, wrong sport…..
Burke, Bloomquist and Broussard is our bench?! Our whole darn bench? It’ll be cold and lonely down there. And largely devoid of significant talent.
I thought the M’s would have trouble finding 8 pitchers on their roster that could easily justify a major league spot. I guess I just can’t read talent like Hargrove.
the roster moves were just made official on the team website…
I remember last year when Grover would complain that he could not utilize Willie in the way he wanted because Willie was the only one who could plausibly backup both CF and the middle infield positions. Yet Grover has once again given himself the same problem. If Reed is on the bench, they have a legitimate 4th OF who can play all three positions at an above average level, and Willie can be the reserve infielder/pinch-runner. It is not the roster that upsets me so, but the fact that the M’s, and Hargrove in particular, make bad decisions when better and much easier decisions are right in front of them.
22: You put Willie at second, Guillen in center and Broussard in right. Then you pray for a miracle.
22: You put Willie at second, Guillen in center and Broussard in right. Then you pray for a miracle.
This is probably the best idea, but it’s the best of a bunch of horrible ideas.
A 13 man pitching staff is just stupid.
When I saw ‘Adios, Stiff’, I thought that Hargrove had been nixed. Although, I guess I would have woken up to dancing in the streets if that were the case.
13 pitchers?… one of them potentially being a rookie who should be starting in AA? Are there really gonna be enough innings for Morrow to actually get experience?
Stu. pid.
i’m sure reed will be called up in a couple weeks when someone in the pen is getting rocked…wait, it’s grover we’re talking about…my bad…maybe they’ll cut burke after all, have a two man bench, and bring up another lefty…
Last night on the radio — yes, KJR — Bloomquist talked about being used like Mark McLemore: subbing for different guys and playing five or six days a week. So that would leave a less versatile player on the bench, like, almost every game.
Question: is Adam Jones still on the active roster? I don’t see anything in the transactions to indicate he’s not. So maybe he takes the slot we thought Reed would have and the M’s show a teensy bit of sanity and pare down to 12 pitchers? Maybe?
I think this has always been Bloomquist’s wish. I certainly hope it isn’t a fact.
“This way, I get to show off my flexibility and grit and play the role of hero more often… Brilliant!”
He’s useful as hell as a late inning pinch runner or a guy to throw out on defense after we use Broussard as a pinch hitter to try to knock one out against a righty. But if we give him the number of ABs he got last year… it’s gonna be a long season.
It’s getting real frustrating being an M’s fan. I mean, I don’t mind that we’ve finished 4th for however long now, but knowing that the organization isn’t making the right decisions to turn this thing around, well, that just sucks.
So… how great is this chance they’ll use 13 pitchers?
Sadly, it’s entirely possible this collection of idiots might choose to do that. Why not let the guy who probably needs a bit more development time rot away on the bench?! At least he’ll be in the major leagues.
Jones hasn’t had the spring to warrant this and the organization should know he needs the playing time in AAA. I’d seriously doubt it.
jones is still on the roster…hasn’t been cut yet…he and morse are both still “alive”
let’s just hope morrow gets rocked today and they give the last spot in the bullpen to white OR huber and morse makes the team…
jones needs to go down to get at bats…
There are a bunch of guys still hanging around who don’t have a real chance to make the major league roster. Justin Lehr, Gookie Dawkins, and Adam Jones to name three.
It looks like the last spot is going to come down to Sean White vs Mike Morse. If they don’t want to lose White, they’ll go with 13 pitchers. It’s not decided yet, but we’ll find out in the next day or two.
Let’s just say, for sake of argument, that there’s a collision in center field between Jose Lopez and Ichiro. Both need to come out of the game. What do you do?
Uh. Uh. Put Sherrill at 2nd and Guillen in CF, and Putz in right.
If they like White they should send Morrow down, keep White and Morse (If you really need more than 11 pitchers…)! If you need me I’ll be banging my head on a wall somewhere.
Putz would gun down anyone from right with that arm…lol…i’m sure it was tossed around this winter before they signed guillen…JJ must not be able to hit…
agree 100% with replacement…keep white and morse…SEND DOWN MORROW!!!!!!
I’m shocked it’s only 13 pitchers. I mean, why is Broussard taking up a spot for a backup LOOGY? Why Jamie Burke when Bloomquist could catch he’s so fkn versatile?
I kinda want to see a disastrous collision on the field now, just to see what Hargrove would do. Ichiro-Lopez is one thing, but imagine Yuni and Lopez knocking each other out with Vidro playing DH.
I thought Rivera was “Felix’s Catcher”. I remember that being a story last year and thought it was kind of silly. I was going to look at Felix’s splits when Johjima is catching him vs. Rivera. My guess is we wouldn’t see much of a difference but I’m too lazy to look for it…
Someday Rivera will be telling his grandkids about how he once starred in a commercial catching serious Felix Hernandez heat, and didn’t end up making the ball club.
In Hargrove’s defense, it’s not like he uses the 24th and 25th men anyway.
I think you could actually justify a *12* man staff because Ramirez, Batista, and Weaver (if he doesn’t regain his velocity) aren’t going to be going very deep into ballgames.
It’s good to see that Reed will get regular PT at Tacoma and, hopefully, will be able to revive his career.
But a three man bench. Wow. So clever it’s retarded.
45- If that nightmare scenario happened we could look forward to Vidro playing 2nd and Willie playing ss? Just with that happening for 10 games that’s probably an 0-10 record to look forward too.
If Ichiro and Lopez get hurt, this team’s likely done anyways.
Figgins
Scutaro
Hairston Jr.
Not even the best utility player in the division.
I know you all know that, but I need to vent.
There is no way that they go with a 3 man bench…I will gladly entertain any side bet on this issue…Maybe they sing a guy off waivers, or maybe Morse or Ordonez makes the squad. Its a little crazy to assume that they will go to 13 no matter your level of disgust with the Managment. …..If by some freak chance they go to 13 pitchers, then uproar is called for, but I see no indication of them going to 13. No one goes to 13 unless they pitching gets blown up with a 20 inning game and the team needs an extra pitcher for the weekend.
Bloomquist can’t play catcher?? Man he must’ve started slacking after he got his contract extension.
I bet he plays Catcher as well as he plays DH.
Because Brandon Morrow HAS to make the team…
Ugh.
Any idea whom they’ll take of the 40 man roster for Burke?
Mr Bloomquist. I knew Mark McLemore. You sir, are no Mark McLemore.
/end Lloyd Bentson
Any idea whom they’ll take of the 40 man roster for Burke?
Rivera.
I don’t think Bavasi’s voice is good enough for this.
With 13 pitchers it’s just too hard to spread the innings around. If they’re determined to go with a 3 man bench, I think they should just carry 23 and save some money.
I for one think that there is a 0% chance of a 13 man staff. That’s completely ridiculous. It’s like putting a pitcher in the DH. Mark my words, I’ll make a US$100 donation to the USSM fund if we go with a 13 man staff.
Morse is getting that last spot. I’m sure of it.
Now I’m torn, I’d really rather they didn’t go with a 13 man staff. However USSM getting a $100 donation is pretty sweet, and it coming from Corco (while barely covering his daily bandwidth usage) would be even nicer.
I’ll also never question anyone again. And I’ll limit myself to 3 visits a day. And I’ll request to be permanently placed in the mod queue.
One hitch however. If Putz is unavailable but doesn’t go on the DL and that results in the 3 man bench, but as soon as he’s ready he goes down, that doesn’t count.
not *he but another reliever.
tchaw. Obviously, Willie just plays both. That is what hustle was made for.
Dave wrote:
and Replacement Level Poster replied:
This would be the sensible decision, but it is about 99% clear that it is also not the one they are going to make – Morrow is going to make the team.
I wonder if they think that, if they carry White a bit into the season (and especially if he struggles) that it is more likely that Pittsburgh/Atlanta will be willing to work out a deal to keep White here but down. With the way most of the ‘pen has pitched, as well as the back end of the rotation, you might be able to justify a 12-man staff for a little while. I don’t think 13 is defensible, but it looks like that’s where they are headed. Hopefully, only for a few weeks, though.
Remember, Corco, it isn’t just Putz who is struggling through injury. Reitsma is not far-removed from serious injury, and Baker’s blog reported recently that the M’s staff thought that Reitsma was favoring his elbow in him most recent appearance/struggle. If they are not going to DL either of them, but have to coddle both of them a bit early, 13 doesn’t look as unlikely as it would otherwise.
I don’t think they have to make any sort of deal with Pittsburgh, just Atlanta.
He’d also need to clear waivers for the Mariners to send him down.
Burke, Bloomquist, Broussard…dont you all get it? We are creating the AL’s version of the Killer B’s!! I cant wait to find that trading card!
The size of the bench here is no real surprise. Grover has never made it a secret that he felt pinch hitting was a waste of time and a starters job is to play full time. (Except maybe catcher)I’ve often wondered if his Indian teams were in fact “gassed” by October but there is nothing to back that up. My guess is he’ll keep Ordonez. Veteran club house presence, allows use of WB for baserunning and OF work, etc. It’s dumb but WTF, were we expecting something else?
Yeah, I know he’d have to clear waivers – that’s yet another reason why I think they may carry 13 – perhaps once you get a bit into the season, 25/40 man rosters are better set, and teams are less likely to dump a guy to pick up a guy on waivers, especially as the distance between what I expect will be middling, few-and-far-between regular-season relief appearances and his sub-2.00 Spring Training ERA grows. Especially since any team claiming him on waivers would also have to carry him on the 25-man all season.
I am very happy for Burke and the Mariners. Rivera needed much more play time and he wasn’t/isn’s going to get it in Seattle. I see Burke as a nice bridge to Clement. And Jo probably will be around for a while.
While we have one good decision, the season really rides on Guillen, Vidro and Sexson – some of the more questionable decisions.
And I hope Lowe’s arm heals well. He is really needed down the road.
Feel good story? Burke making it so his son can see him play…he’s 20 months old!!
I can see their conversation in Burke’s retirement facility:
Jamie: “Parker, you saw me play…wasn’t that great?”
Parker: “I dont remember you playing dad”
Jamie’s wife: “Jamie, he was really young..the first at bat you had he had totally obliterated a diaper and I was changing him..so he didn’t see you strike out.”
Jamie: “Oh, what about that time I had that game winning…umm, HBP!? You had to remember that Parker!”
Parker: “Mom…what was I doing then?”
Jamie’s wife: “Sleeping hunnie.”
I thought this kid was like 10..so feel good story? Not so much with the ‘kid-watching-me-factor’
That is from an article at the time we picked him up. Is this really a guy that you have to be so worried about keeping that you even consider using a 13-man pen?
I can’t help but think we’ve waived better players than him in the past. If they are so hung up on having Morrow, than going to a 13-man staff for White seems a bit silly.
Gah, then not than. Then not than. I’ll save you this one Ralph.
For once I agree with Bavasi & Hargrove on Reed. If he stays up, he sits on he bench and his value remains what it was at the end of the year, pretty negligible. In Tacoma they’ll find a place for him to play every day, and maybe he returns to something a lot closer to the player we thought we had when we traded for him in the first place.
And that then gives us additional options in terms of keeping or trading him. Maybe they could even rotate Jones and Reed in alternate weeks between CF and LF or RF, giving them both experience at multiple positions.
74: I like how being 0-3 with a 6.35 ERA in 5 starts (I know its a small sample) gained him our interest. Were we looking for a batting practice pitcher?
Thank you, thedrobber. You made me laugh out loud.
Throughout the season, when my friends ask me what’s up with “those Mariners of yours?” I will reply, “Their manager is only playing with a three-man bench.” Some will get it. Some won’t.
The Brain Delay doesn’t use the bench anyway. Just keep WFB and carry 15 pitchers. That way he can even more grossly mismanage the pen.
I’m about to break my Mariners mug that I just finished gluing together from the Doyle debacle.
Well, the Mariners were certainly interested in him, and seem to remain so. You mention AFL stats (which we all know are meaningless), but don’t mention the more salient point that the M’s saw White pick up 2-3 mph (from 93 to 96, reportedly) that was also prominently mentioned in the articles that ran at the time the M’s picked up White. Also, while ST numbers are almost as meaningless as AFL numbers, they’re clearly more relevant and come against (generally) better competition, and White’s look very good: 1.29 ERA over 7 appearances and 14.0 IP, with a .200 average against and a heavily ground-ball ratio. Also, while I can’t elaborate, I have good information that there are other factors which make it more likely that his improvement is real and sustainable.
Bottom line: He’s pitched well enough to be in this discussion, regardless of what he did last year in AA or last fall in the AFL, and there are LOTS of people who are assumed to have made the team already he’s out-pitched.
Sean White is on the team because he was born in Pullman and played 4 years at Washington. No other reason.
I wasn’t really getting at the AFL stats, that just happened to be in the paragraph mentioning that he was 25 in AA with stats that didn’t exactly show he was ready to pitch in MLB this year.
I also am not to concerned with the ST stats either, just like the AFL stats they are a small sample size. At this point its a scouts word on whether or not the improvement is real, there just isn’t enough of a sample to to point at the stats and say “Well he was nothing special last year, but he’s ready to go now!”
If the scouts are saying that, then fine. You can send Morrow down then, White is your man. If White turns out to suck then go ahead and call up Morrow, which I unless its half way into this season I won’t be to happy about either.
My point really is this, is he really special enough to make you cramp your team’s versatility off the bench? If he is, isn’t there someone who isn’t that you can get rid of?
Brad Holman loves him.
this is on the MLB front page in the article about reed getting moved to tacoma:
“Mariners manager Mike Hargrove plans to begin the season with a 12-man pitching staff. The biggest surprise would be Morrow, the club’s first-round pick out of the University of California in last June’s First-Year Player Draft. ”
so from that is sounds like good news that he’ll go with 12 and not 13, but bad news that morrow is going to be one of the 12…
And now, Geoff Baker thinks that Ordoñez is a good shot to make the club.
Bavasi was just on the pregame show and he mentioned that Ordonez is probably going to make this team. Which means we’ll be carrying just a single bench player who can actually hit a baseball.
Did you know Ordonez has a career OPS+ of 60? That’s right, 60. Of course, since he’s 35 years old and hasn’t played in 3 years he’s unlikely to match that performance this year.
Rene Rivera may be gone but they’ll have 2 guys on the bench — the only righthanders on the bench — who are equally bad hitters.
RLP, I’m not arguing with you that he’s good enough to force a 13-man staff, or that a 13-man staff is a good idea. I just think that it’s getting more and more evident that either the M’s are going to do that (regardless of whether you or I think it is a good idea) in order to keep Morrow up and White around, or they are going to DL Putz or Reitsma at the beginning of the year to keep the number at 12 until some other solution slaps them in the butt. And, I’m arguing that White deserves to be in that discussion, however misguided the direction the M’s are taking it. Small sample size caveats, granted, but he’s pitched very nearly as well as Morrow. He’s not striking people out (3.21 K/9), but he’s very efficient (only 79 pitches in 14 IP – 5.64 pitches/IP), he’s keeping it on the ground very well (GB/FB ratio of 3.33 – 28 GB / 9 FB), and his averages against are all good: .185/.228/.259.
To me, it’s a no-brainer to keep him and send Morrow down (at least for now), but it’s pretty obvious to me the M’s disagree with that. I’m just saying he’s worth giving a longer look than most people here seem willing to give him.
from Drayer:
to be fair, burke can hit…and we know broussard can…
Hargrove being Hargrove, I see this scenario playing out:
Broussard comes in to pinch hit for Betancourt (or Johjima or Lopez) against a tough righthander late in a game, the opposing manager brings in a LOOGY, and Hargrove brings in Bloomquist to hit for Broussard. While the opposing manager laughs his ass off at the matchup he has gotten in a high-leverage at bat and the fact that Hargrove has now completely cleaned out his meager bench.
ah, spring in Phoenix: Padres 24, Rangers 7. Kevin Millwood gave up 12 hits and nine earned runs in 4 1-3 innings.
and it looks like the entire regular starting line-up is in the game today with felix on the mound against the rangers…here we go…
110 million dollar payroll, and the best these clowns can do is Rey Ordonez, Jamie Burke, and rushing Brandon Morrow to the show.
Have you checked the price of grit these days? Hustle? Leadership? World Series rings?
Also note that if Ordonez makes the squad, not one of the four bench players (Broussard, WFB, Ordenez, and Burke) are outfielders by trade. Sure, you can stick them in the OF, but all, other than Burke, are primarily infielders.
In the Rizzs radio interview with Bavasi, Bavasi did say that Reed wouldn’t get many ABs. What I took away from Bavasi’s comments were that Hargrove made it clear that, as long as he was manager, Reed would not play much. Since Bavasi won’t fire, or is prohibited from firing Grover, he had to make the best out of the situation.
You knew that it was unfair to Willie that he was regarded as the worst player on the team… well at least they fixed that. He looks like Barry Bonds in comparison.
I honestly can’t remember the last time we had two backup infielders on the roster.
How much difference does a backup catcher make, though? Joh played in 144 games. Even including late substitutions because he got pulled for a PR, etc, you’re only talking about what, 60 ABs? That’s pretty limited leverage on an upgrade. I’m not saying I’m not glad they did upgrade from Rivera, and maybe that gives the manager a little more flexibility and a chance to give Joh more rest (I say “manager” because Hargrove shows no evidence of the mental agility required to use such flexibility, and I’m hoping his role will soon be filled by someone else), but the only real positive here is that they recognized a weakness and found a cheap way to reduce it. Now, if there was more evidence that kind of thinking carried over to roster spots with more impact, I’d be feeling much better.
um. Rafael Bournigal and Gio Guevara?
In the Rizzs radio interview with Bavasi, Bavasi did say that Reed wouldn’t get many ABs. What I took away from Bavasi’s comments were that Hargrove made it clear that, as long as he was manager, Reed would not play much. Since Bavasi won’t fire, or is prohibited from firing Grover, he had to make the best out of the situation.
You know, that’s an interesting angle. What does Hargrove have against Reed?
maybe they can pick up Dave Cameron endorsed Todd Walker to replace Ordonez?
I want to request that Ralph’s post #90 be placed in a special place and permalinked…because I just know that’s going to happen this summer, and I think Ralph should get his proper due when it does.
A paper bag full of rosin could do a better job managing this team.
You know I had a teacher one year that all the students disliked. We gave them hell until they up and quit. I wonder, if everyone who had bad things to say about Hargrove, said them to him, he’d quit.
How hard is it for a baseball mind, especially one who has been hired at the top-tier level of his profession for a decade+, to NOT understand even the basics in building a bench? Even a Little Leaguer can patch together an effective bench that can keep a roster well rested, and might even bring an extra win or two over the course of the season:
VERY BASIC BENCH
CA – Solid glove+arm and/or platoon match with starter
IF – Corner IF with solid bat vs certain skillset (RHP or LHP)
IF – No-hit Middle IF with slick glove and good baserunning
OF – Corner OF with solid bat vs a certain skillset (RHP or LHP, usually opposite of the corner IF skillset)
OF – No-hit defensive glove that can play all OF positions and good baserunning
All these skillsets are ‘replacement level’ and below. Easily obtainable for next to nothing (in-house prospects who only matured in 1 or 2 ‘tools’, waiver claims, roster invitees, etc). And should NEVER have to be obtained by giving up decent-or-better talent in trade.
I’m just a simple baseball ’simmer’ that manages in the Diamond Mind Baseball Simulation Leagues, and even I understand the importance of an adequate bench. If my slow brain can ‘get it’, there’s no reason the M’s can’t as well.
Rey Ordonez is now a Lopez or Betancourt injury away from winning some kind of HACKING MASS comeback player of all time award.
I like Ordonez on the roster IF:
1. They use Broussard as a left handed bat to pinch-hit late for Lopez or Yuni
2. Ordonez then goes in to play defense
Unfortunately, I haven’t seen anything from Hargrove to suggest that brain-delay will use his bench this way
i’m a teacher, and when the kids tell me they don’t like me, or that they don’t like what we are doing in class, i just torment them more…i think hargrove is stubborn too, or he would have quit by now…he’ll never admit he is wrong and quit…it would just make matters worse…ichio would be traded and willie’d be starting in center…lol…
You know, in getting rid of Rivera, I didn’t think they could find somebody to put on the roster who would actually hit worse than he does.
You people are forgetting the obvious regarding bench depth: Weaver and Batista and Ramirez spent time in the NL so they can also pinchhit on off days….They can bat Bloomesque .210.
do you suppose Hargrove looks at Ordonez and thinks Vizquel?
Do you suppose Hargrove thinks?
msb that’s a reflection in Ordonez’ glasses of Betancourt
I don’t think that Hargrove has anything against Reed. He just does not trust him to perform at a major league level, for whatever reason. Grover will just play Ibanez, Ichiro, and Guillen everyday. If Ichiro needs a day off, he will plug in WFB. He will also have Broussard cover LF and RF if either Ibanez or Guillen need a day off.
Grover has constructed a bad, bad bench, and he will use it poorly. I do not know how he can think that Ordonez will help make the M’s better than either Reed or Morse.
well, we’re up 6-0 after three…felix is cruising…
sorry…7-0…
The Times’ blog states that they don’t think Lopez is 100% healthly and are carrying Ordonez to play second until Jose can get up to speed.
ordonez will probably be released if lopez gets healthy and reed or morse are hitting well in tacoma…if ordonez is really the last guy anyway…
Sure he does. Those dugout pizzas aren’t gonna order themselves.
Or he just might take the starting job … I bet Ordonez hits a pretty nice ground ball to the second baseman.
Beltre just hit a bomb. 8-0. This looks good…
I need to get this in quickly. Sexson just hit a homerun. I bet Padilla nails another batter.
Now Sexson hit a bomb. Save some for the regular season fellas!
McLaren’s master plan is revealing itself.
man, richie is 3-3 and now hitting a monster .220…
Mariners will win 120 games this year…its obvious!
Yeah, but Beltre is 3-3 and is hitting .380
i was being sarcastic…lol…
but seriously, the starting line-up as a team was hitting about .314 coming into the game, so as long as the pitching holds up, we should be alright…
it;s difcullt too typ wth cermic sharrd s in keeybord
OK, I realize this is sourced from the NY Post, and it’s reprinted in the “rumors” section of si.com, but:
I can understand trading Ichiro in July, if the team is out of the race and (especially) if Ichiro is unhappy. I’d be very sorry to see him go, but I understand the value of the July trade of soon-to-be-FAs (as Beane has repeatedly demonstrated). I just don’t get why you’d do that trade. I actually came around to Dave’s idea of picking up Manny in the offseason, but that was in addition to Ichiro. I would think you could get a lot more long-term value in exchange for Ichiro, even for just a half-season of the guy. Then again, I don’t trust the M’s FA to obtain that value (and I can imagine them trying to get a “name” superstar to replace the one they have now, no matter how little sense it might make in baseball terms).
if that is even remotely true, it would be a good move, if and only if, they are 100% sure that ichiro will leave…put manny at DH, yuni would lead off, and by next year if reed or jones (preferrably jones) aren’t ready, then there are still a bunch of FA center fielders coming available…how many years are left on manny’s contract? 3 or 4? manny, richie, beltre, joh, guillen, and ibanez…wow…
Uh, yeah, and Hargrove stays forever since he can handle Manny’s fragile ego, and the Mariners attendance goes down without the PR draw of Ichiro.
End result: the Mariners sit around a wait for the 3-run homers that never come, and Ichiro helps the Red Sox to the playoffs.
No sir, I don’t like it
man…so much negativity around here lately…let’s be positive…smoking the rangers and opening day is in a few days…i, for one, am fired up…sorry to be a ray of sunshine in the dark clouds…
Let’s not forget that there is a pattern here: Remember the Thornton/Borchard/Petagine love triangle that materialized last season. See also the Carl Everett/Snelling debate, and you can see a clear picture.
Roster mismanagement is just one of the HUGE red flags on Hargrove’s resume. If Hargrove has as much pull over roster decisions as we suspect, then this should be another reason for this idiot to be fired.
If he’s making the call on Reed, Morrow, and Ordonez, it speaks volumes to the guy’s inability to actually evaluate talent and adapt his managerial style to conform with the best talent. In Morrow’s case, he may actually see the talent (”Pitch go fast! Oooooh!”), but he can’t make the logical decision regarding that talent.
Heavens, do I hate Hargrove.
Give me a couple of ML-ready prospects for Ichiro over Manny any day of the month…
Beltre is 4-4. 10-2 good guys.
yeah baby!
Opening day is right around the corner, with King Felix on the hill. Can’t wait. I still think the M’s can win the West this year.
there you go conquest…positive baby…
Man, rough couple of days for Ranger pitching.
I love all the hits the M’s have been able to put up the last few days, but remember a fair number of them have been against pitchers we’ve never heard of (and may never hear of again). And we can expect the hitting to droop back to form once they’ve returned to the damp balls and cold, dense air of Safeco
anyone know why felix is out? pitch count? shouldn’t he be throwing six today?
So with Reed going to Tacoma, does he play LF for the Rainiers? And would that not hurt his trade value immensely?
Never mind. If teams want Reed as a CF, they’ll play him as a CF.
Let’s hope he hits in Tacoma.
wowsers with the ‘07 roster taking shape, it’s time for a haiku:
miffed and mystified,
i will wear my Ms jersey
my heart on its sleeve.
Equally perplexing….. you’re not already in the mod queue????
But remember that last year, we couldn’t hit an unknown pitcher so this could bode well for this year.
With his .310 OBP?
Mumba Rivera… mop up work… yoi.
AUSTIN BIBENS-DIRKX SIGHTING!
FREE AUSTIN BIBENS-DIRKX!!!!
Seriously, if we’re going to rush a pitcher to the majors because we need help in the ‘pen, I’d MUCH rather it be AB-D than Morrow.
The Sleeper in this wole bunch of huppula is Morse.
Could someone update me on A-BD -What’s his status as a prospect, where’s he pitching next year, what’s his upside? etc.
AB-D is my irrational love interest. He’s kinda like Jeff Nelson, only he doesn’t throw as hard. He’s essentially a high 80s fastball / slider throwing deception machine. Got pretty good command from what I understand, and gets a lot of swinging strikes, but he may not have the velocity to set up his slider very well.
If you haven’t seen it yet — Austin has a pretty wild pitching motion, and I just happened to catch lightning in a bottle by seeing him in his Tacoma debut last year (on his way to A-ball).
He was pretty effective last year — in more innings and appearances than his fellow 2006 draftee Brandon Morrow…
Lest we all forget, Betancourt was effectively a rookie last year. Let’s see if he can’t improve on his .310 OBP before we knee-jerk every response with a well-worn, irrelevant stat.
Saw Felix pitch today in Peoria, as well as their last three Cactus league games. Few observations:
1) Batista and Ramirez looked terrible, giving up 10+ combined runs in about the same number of innings. Pitches were flat, inconsistent. Fastballs looked like watermelons, offspeed pitches had no bite and were never around the zone. Watching those guys and realizing they’re filling the 3 and 4 slots I’m thinking “This team is gonna lose a lot of games.”
2) Vidro in the #3 slot won’t last long. He looks the part, nice level swing, seems patient, but never seems to perform. He takes good pitches, doesn’t seem to be able to hit the ball the other way well. If you start him off with a breaking pitch for a strike, you’ll retire him out 9 of 10 times.
3) Arthur Rhodes, sadly, looks done. Came in and wasn’t near the zone, then got kicked out while he was being pulled for yellin’ at the ump.
4) Beltre looked outstanding at third — never saw him misplay a ball — and hit a home run today.
5) I want to say Felix looks ready but I’m not totally convinced. Still seems to lose concentration at times, and his command with it. But threw some unhittable change-ups. The team looked good with him on the mound. Now what to about those other 4 games a week
Go M’s!
OBP is irrelevant?
Yessirree! Baseball is about two things: scoring runs and driving in runs. Runs scored and RBIs are the ONLY statistics that matter.
/sarcasm
I was just about to ask the same thing…
For a leadoff hitter, yet.
I’m willing to listen to an argument that Betancourt will improve on his .310 OBP. But if your argument is that OBP is well-worn and irrelevant to his value as a leadoff hitter, then you’ve lost me.
Trading Ichiro in a package for Manny makes sense if (and only if) (1) the M’s are still in the race in July, (2) they conclude that there is no chance they can sign him after this year, and (3) they have someone else available — through trade or otherwise — to lead off and play CF.
That is an unlikely collection of ifs.
Knowing Hargrove, this means Lopez gets PH for by Broussard in the 8th, and then Ordonez plays 2nd in the 9th. But only when we’re losing and Lopez is 0-fer. And that will be the extent of Broussard’s and Ordonez’s playing time.
Just got home from work. Being a Rainiers fan and secretly or not so secretly still hoping the Ms get punished enough so Hargrove gets canned eventually (and, it’d be even better if the entire front office from Lincoln on down but for Fontaine and Engle got canned)….
well, all I can say is ‘dammit. I don’t want to watch Rene Rivera catch anymore than you guys do’. I want to watch Rob Johnson and Jeff Clement (though I’m pretty sure Clement is headed to AA to regain some of the ground he lost last year in the irrational ‘promote them till they fail’ contest.
Does anybody think Rivera gets claimed on waivers? He is, after all, a Veteran Catcher now.
Okay, just had a quick conversation at work, and we came up with a few ideas that might work.
Manager for a day/GM for a month: Randomly select one ticket holder going through the turnstile as the manager for that game. Hold a lottery drawing of all the winners for a month to pick the GM for the next month. Optional benefit: only pick from those fans who arrive at least 30 minutes prior to gametime to discourage late arrivals. Unsolved problem: what to do for road games. Perhaps letting one of the opponent’s fans manage would still be an improvement?
Prizes in the Bag: Hidden in a bad of peanuts is a golden ticket that makes you manager for the next game. This should boost concession sales.
Give that fan a gold glove and a manager’s cap!: Whenever a fan catches a foul ball, instead of playing a jingle, send ‘em down to the dugout. They manage until the next foul ball is caught. Bonus points if they take a line drive off the noggin. A fan with a concussion would be an improvement.
ATT Wireless Text Messaging promotion: “Text your vote for the starting lineup/pinch hitter/relief pitcher to *21.” A running talley can show up on the scoreboard. With the kickback from ATT, the team can up the payroll for ‘08.
I think Sanjaya should manage.
The text messaging promotion is genius! The consensus of fans would come up with a better line up than Hargrove. They/we would handle the BP better for sure.
The Red Sox had that same dilemma in the 2003 post-season. They’d just subbed in Damian Jackson as a defensive replacement, and then Jackson and Johnny Damon collided in the outfield and were both rendered unconsious. We’re talking a Grade II+/III concussion for both guys.
But since Jackson was just a bench player, and they’d already used their extra middle-infielder in that game (Jackson), the Red Sox LEFT JACKSON IN THE GAME, even though even a slight jostling of his skull could have killed him.
Without Ordonez (or Reed, and Reed would be the better choice) on the roster, the M’s would be setting themselves up for that sort of grossly irresponsible behaviour on a regular basis.
We need a lefty masher on the bench.
The White Sox just made Gustavo Molina their backup catcher. I think anyone’s fair game at this point.
Oh thank god, Churchill’s saying Rivera’s going to West Tenn. Man, that was close.
ordonez is listed on the rainers roster already…along with rivera…meaningful?
Who’s Gustavo Molina? Benji/Jose/Yadier’s dad?
There’s another Molina?
Man, one year your on the ML roster. The next your back in the bus leagues, all the way to AA.
Sucks to be Rene. Hopefully it will work in improving areas he really needs to improve on, which would be his entire game.
#127– not only was it the Post, but it was Joel Sherman’s ‘Kreskin’ column
The Red Sox had that same dilemma in the 2003 post-season. They’d just subbed in Damian Jackson as a defensive replacement, …
And the real extra-secret dilemna was only thing that qualified Jackson as a “defensive replacement” was that he was a crappy hitter.
Anybody know if there’s a way to ascertain whether Hargrove is the worst manager with, say, more than six or seven years of experience?
Maury Wills was worse but he didn’t last long enough.
Burke is 35 years old. He’s been in the minor leagues his whole career. Rivera needs to play everyday because he’s only like 22 or 23 and Kenji will get the lion’s share at Catcher. Rivera is the Catcher of the future.
Who’s future? West Tennessee’s?
Pardon me if I’m incorrect here, but isn’t Clement the Catcher of the future? I believe Rene is the Catcher of Never.
Clement cant’ get out of his own way.
Evan, you got a link for where you found out how badly Jackson was hurt on that collision? I don’t recall that Jackson lost consciousness, and all the news stories I’ve read concentrate on Damon. Sounds like an interesting story that went underreported. FWIW, after taking Jackson out, I’d have put Mientkiewicz at 2B, or put Minky at 1B, then shifted Mueller to 2B and Millar to 3B, where he’d played a couple times as late as 2002. Either configuration’s gotta be better than putting Ortiz in the field, not to mention losing the DH in the process.
If Ichiro and Lopez both have to come out at the same time, Broussard goes to RF/LF with Ibanez in the other corner OF, Bloomquist to 2B, and Guillen shifted to CF, assuming, of course, those guys are all available. Also, he may be poor there, too, but Sexson has experience in LF and might not embarrass himself. I’d go with the first option. Odds of Hargrove putting Bloomquist in CF and losing the DH by putting Vidro at 2B?
“Yeah, I was in the show. I was in the show for 21 days once – the 21 greatest days of my life. You know, you never handle your luggage in the show, somebody else carries your bags. It was great. You hit white balls for batting practice, the ballparks are like cathedrals, the hotels all have room service, and the women all have long legs and brains.”
FWIW, after taking Jackson out, I’d have put Mientkiewicz at 2B,
Mientkiewicz played for the Twins in 2003, so that’s a pretty unlikely substitution.
Evan, you got a link for where you found out how badly Jackson was hurt on that collision?
I have that game on tape and just reviewed the play. No, Jackson never passed out.
Rey Ordonez has a career OPS under .600 and hasn’t played in 2 years. You have got to be kidding me. They are going to move someone off the 40 man roster for him?
Ahhhhh, crap… I mixed up 04 with 03 again. Anyway. Shift Mueller to 2B and Millar to 3B and somebody’s gotta be able to play 1B without giving up the DH, right? Kapler in RF and Nixon at 1B?
Millar played a total of 28 games at 3B over a total of five years with the Florida Fish. There’s a reason no one’s played him at 3B since. (Hell, he’s not exactly graceful at 1B.)
Nixon’s never played 1B in MLB. Game 5 of the ALDS is probably not where you want to introduce him to the position, even if you’ve got a brain the size of Grady Little’s.
Rivera is the Catcher of the future.
Rene Rivera has no aptitude for any facet of the game. He’s not a prospect, and giving him playing time at the expense of other more interesting catchers is a huge waste. Just kick him to the curb and be done with it.
186: If there’s no one else (it looks like Merloni could’ve gone in), and Jackson had to leave the game because “even a slight jostling of his skull could have killed him”, I’m pretty sure Millar could’ve handled 3B for two or three innings while McCarty took first. The mere fact that he did play the position beyond a fluke once or twice says something, too, though, ultimately, he might not have had any business playing there with any regularity. Even after he stopped playing third, he fielded grounders regularly, at least. Or would you rather have Kapler try second or third? Or Mirabelli? Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.
All this reminds me that Ichiro figures prominently in a fun and slightly relevant post from BaseballToaster.
Ah, Lou Merloni. Framingham’s own Lou Merloni. The Red Sox’ own Willie Bloomquist, except that they never threw a million dollars and a multiyear deal in his direction.
I don’t accept the proposition that even a slight jostling of his skull could have killed Jackson. I reviewed the tape last night, and the juy was back up on his knees in seconds, even though Damon was out cold, flat on his back.
As long as the tape was out, it was a nice to see Terrance Long watch strike 3 go by him with the bases loaded and two out in the 9th inning.