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	<title>Comments on: Ow, ow, ow</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: metz123</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168525</link>
		<dc:creator>metz123</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168525</guid>
		<description>Pecota also assumes that the same players will be on the final roster as the starting roster. We all know that this is not true. Every year some teams hold fire sales and some teams buy players for the stretch. I actually expect the M&#039;s to hit around 68 wins after they do a player dump in July. Bavasi will get canned around mid July and the new GM will gut the team, trying to get anything he can for our current overpriced squad. 

We&#039;ll be playing with the kids in August &amp; September with the expected results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pecota also assumes that the same players will be on the final roster as the starting roster. We all know that this is not true. Every year some teams hold fire sales and some teams buy players for the stretch. I actually expect the M&#8217;s to hit around 68 wins after they do a player dump in July. Bavasi will get canned around mid July and the new GM will gut the team, trying to get anything he can for our current overpriced squad. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll be playing with the kids in August &amp; September with the expected results.</p>
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		<title>By: scraps</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168456</link>
		<dc:creator>scraps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168456</guid>
		<description>PECOTA is not predicting that no team will play .600 ball.  PECOTA is not projecting any specific team to do so.  Those are not the same thing.  PECOTA is saying that no team is built to play .600 ball under their ordinary circumstances: that for a team to do so they will have to play over their heads.

I&#039;m sure that if you looked at all the projected seasons that PECOTA ran, in the majority of them some team played over .600 ball.  But it was a bunch of different teams, no team doing so often enough to set that as their level.  

I&#039;ll bet almost every year the best team and the worst team are better and worse than any of PECOTA&#039;s projections.  They&#039;re telling us what each team is, more or less, at their average performance.  Of course some teams will play better than their average.  And of course PECOTA can&#039;t predict which teams will do so.  Their projections still tell you something useful about the relative strength of the teams, and a team projected to win 73 is a lot less likely to overachieve to .600 ball than a team projected to win 93.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PECOTA is not predicting that no team will play .600 ball.  PECOTA is not projecting any specific team to do so.  Those are not the same thing.  PECOTA is saying that no team is built to play .600 ball under their ordinary circumstances: that for a team to do so they will have to play over their heads.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that if you looked at all the projected seasons that PECOTA ran, in the majority of them some team played over .600 ball.  But it was a bunch of different teams, no team doing so often enough to set that as their level.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll bet almost every year the best team and the worst team are better and worse than any of PECOTA&#8217;s projections.  They&#8217;re telling us what each team is, more or less, at their average performance.  Of course some teams will play better than their average.  And of course PECOTA can&#8217;t predict which teams will do so.  Their projections still tell you something useful about the relative strength of the teams, and a team projected to win 73 is a lot less likely to overachieve to .600 ball than a team projected to win 93.</p>
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		<title>By: Oly Rainiers Fan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168392</link>
		<dc:creator>Oly Rainiers Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 04:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168392</guid>
		<description>This may explain why, 2 years after canceling my season tix, they&#039;re STILL sending me postcards begging me to come back and telling me I wouldn&#039;t lose my previous season ticket holder priority?

Nah, what it explains is why I&#039;ll still be getting those postcards begging me to come back every year for the foreseeable future...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may explain why, 2 years after canceling my season tix, they&#8217;re STILL sending me postcards begging me to come back and telling me I wouldn&#8217;t lose my previous season ticket holder priority?</p>
<p>Nah, what it explains is why I&#8217;ll still be getting those postcards begging me to come back every year for the foreseeable future&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JI</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168391</link>
		<dc:creator>JI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168391</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It happened in the NL the last two seasons, and in the majors overall in 2000. And it’s FREQUENTLY been just a couple of games away from happening. It’s not an unreasonable place to start at all. It’s much more likely than to have a extreme outlier. Baseball is a parity sport, much more so than the others. Something about those 162 games….&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The NL? yes. The entire MLB? No. The NL is crappy and had/has zero outstanding teams. When it happened in 2000, the Giants had a .599 win %. 

PECOTA had the Yankees maxing out at 93 wins, I&#039;d be shocked if one team wasn&#039;t over .600. I take those results with a salt lick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It happened in the NL the last two seasons, and in the majors overall in 2000. And it’s FREQUENTLY been just a couple of games away from happening. It’s not an unreasonable place to start at all. It’s much more likely than to have a extreme outlier. Baseball is a parity sport, much more so than the others. Something about those 162 games….</p></blockquote>
<p>The NL? yes. The entire MLB? No. The NL is crappy and had/has zero outstanding teams. When it happened in 2000, the Giants had a .599 win %. </p>
<p>PECOTA had the Yankees maxing out at 93 wins, I&#8217;d be shocked if one team wasn&#8217;t over .600. I take those results with a salt lick.</p>
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		<title>By: Typical Idiot Fan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168389</link>
		<dc:creator>Typical Idiot Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168389</guid>
		<description>DMZ,

Okay.  I guess I&#039;m just thinking about this shit too hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DMZ,</p>
<p>Okay.  I guess I&#8217;m just thinking about this shit too hard.</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168388</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168388</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;PECOTA is reasonably accurate, but by no means are the predictions assured of happening, so let’s not rush to stick the nail in the coffin for 2007- oh wait, I forgot what blog I was on.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Accuracy with Pecota is dependant on context.  Offensively, i&#039;m very, very confortable with it&#039;s projections (correlations are over .70 typically).  Pecota can&#039;t handle pitching nearly as well though (projection correlate to actual roughly around .45) which makes sense I guess.

So if there is any saving grace here, its that the Ms can make up wins because Pecota has missed on the pitching side of things.  Looking at the staff though, I&#039;m thinking that&#039;s more a case of hope springs eternal.  

Then there is some marginal stuff you can consider that might pick up a few wins.  Having Guillen&#039;s arm in right with Ichiro&#039;s in center might be collectively good for 7-8 runs (maybe a win?). Then you can hope that the two do something special in high leverage situations that could get you another win or two...

Of course that California sliding into the ocean (while Texas is at Oakland) idea sounds like a winner...

Careful what you wish for though, the Ms might be at Anahiem that weekend....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>PECOTA is reasonably accurate, but by no means are the predictions assured of happening, so let’s not rush to stick the nail in the coffin for 2007- oh wait, I forgot what blog I was on.</p></blockquote>
<p>Accuracy with Pecota is dependant on context.  Offensively, i&#8217;m very, very confortable with it&#8217;s projections (correlations are over .70 typically).  Pecota can&#8217;t handle pitching nearly as well though (projection correlate to actual roughly around .45) which makes sense I guess.</p>
<p>So if there is any saving grace here, its that the Ms can make up wins because Pecota has missed on the pitching side of things.  Looking at the staff though, I&#8217;m thinking that&#8217;s more a case of hope springs eternal.  </p>
<p>Then there is some marginal stuff you can consider that might pick up a few wins.  Having Guillen&#8217;s arm in right with Ichiro&#8217;s in center might be collectively good for 7-8 runs (maybe a win?). Then you can hope that the two do something special in high leverage situations that could get you another win or two&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course that California sliding into the ocean (while Texas is at Oakland) idea sounds like a winner&#8230;</p>
<p>Careful what you wish for though, the Ms might be at Anahiem that weekend&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: vj</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168387</link>
		<dc:creator>vj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168387</guid>
		<description>Derek, I&#039;d be interested to reread your post on betting but wasn&#039;t able to find it. Do you have a link handy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek, I&#8217;d be interested to reread your post on betting but wasn&#8217;t able to find it. Do you have a link handy?</p>
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		<title>By: DMZ</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168386</link>
		<dc:creator>DMZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168386</guid>
		<description>I guess I have a couple responses:
- Obviously, you have to acknowledge that doing this is pretty much taking a lot of forecasts and playing time guesses and putting it all in a blender, and doesn&#039;t reflect what will happen

- To the issue of teams not being the same, that&#039;s certainly true, but for the most part, team composition doesn&#039;t change that much in the aggregate. No team gears up or tears down entirely in any single year.


Look at this as more of a start-of-season rough cut: &quot;If these guys perform at their weighted mean forecasts and we&#039;re more or less right about who gets what playing time, here&#039;s the relative strength of the teams.&quot;

I don&#039;t view these as having any real predictive value - but they are still interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I have a couple responses:<br />
- Obviously, you have to acknowledge that doing this is pretty much taking a lot of forecasts and playing time guesses and putting it all in a blender, and doesn&#8217;t reflect what will happen</p>
<p>- To the issue of teams not being the same, that&#8217;s certainly true, but for the most part, team composition doesn&#8217;t change that much in the aggregate. No team gears up or tears down entirely in any single year.</p>
<p>Look at this as more of a start-of-season rough cut: &#8220;If these guys perform at their weighted mean forecasts and we&#8217;re more or less right about who gets what playing time, here&#8217;s the relative strength of the teams.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t view these as having any real predictive value &#8211; but they are still interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: eponymous coward</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168385</link>
		<dc:creator>eponymous coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168385</guid>
		<description>Huh- so, basically, PECOTA is projecting the AL West to be the 2007 version of the NL West in 2005 or NL Central of 2006- the division being collectively pretty weak and well under .500.

Since that aligns pretty much with what I&#039;ve been thinking since the offseason, OK, then.

As for the Mariners being terrible, well, PECOTA hates Ichiro, always has, probably always will. I take the 73 as the probably low end scenario- Guillen&#039;s a shambles, all the veterans decline collectively, and so on. The problem is that for a team payroll that has 9 digits, we should be looking at a win total that&#039;s much closer to three digits than what we&#039;re getting.

What this DOES seem to say is nobody in the AL West is going to blow the doors off anyone else...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huh- so, basically, PECOTA is projecting the AL West to be the 2007 version of the NL West in 2005 or NL Central of 2006- the division being collectively pretty weak and well under .500.</p>
<p>Since that aligns pretty much with what I&#8217;ve been thinking since the offseason, OK, then.</p>
<p>As for the Mariners being terrible, well, PECOTA hates Ichiro, always has, probably always will. I take the 73 as the probably low end scenario- Guillen&#8217;s a shambles, all the veterans decline collectively, and so on. The problem is that for a team payroll that has 9 digits, we should be looking at a win total that&#8217;s much closer to three digits than what we&#8217;re getting.</p>
<p>What this DOES seem to say is nobody in the AL West is going to blow the doors off anyone else&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Typical Idiot Fan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/comment-page-2/#comment-168384</link>
		<dc:creator>Typical Idiot Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 02:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/03/29/ow-ow-ow/#comment-168384</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But what you call PECOTA getting lucky is simply what happens when you aggregate more data: unexpected performances tend to balance out.&lt;/em&gt;

But that&#039;s exactly what I mean by getting lucky.  The systematic agorithm takes in a wide variety of variables and possiblities and projects an outcome based on what it knows at the time.  But if the variables change over the course of the season, and last season&#039;s July / August / September / October team was not the same as the one that PECOTA originally projected, how can we credit PECOTA&#039;s outcome as being accurate when it was?

I&#039;m just saying that looking at PECOTA&#039;s past results for teams and applying it to current projections for teams is irresponsible unless one looks at the entirety of the data.

And before anybody else jumps in here to make offhanded comments, I&#039;m not knocking PECOTA at all, nor am I claiming USSM is pessimistic.  I&#039;m knocking our interpretations of the results of PECOTA&#039;s projections and our general laziness to question when it&#039;s needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But what you call PECOTA getting lucky is simply what happens when you aggregate more data: unexpected performances tend to balance out.</em></p>
<p>But that&#8217;s exactly what I mean by getting lucky.  The systematic agorithm takes in a wide variety of variables and possiblities and projects an outcome based on what it knows at the time.  But if the variables change over the course of the season, and last season&#8217;s July / August / September / October team was not the same as the one that PECOTA originally projected, how can we credit PECOTA&#8217;s outcome as being accurate when it was?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying that looking at PECOTA&#8217;s past results for teams and applying it to current projections for teams is irresponsible unless one looks at the entirety of the data.</p>
<p>And before anybody else jumps in here to make offhanded comments, I&#8217;m not knocking PECOTA at all, nor am I claiming USSM is pessimistic.  I&#8217;m knocking our interpretations of the results of PECOTA&#8217;s projections and our general laziness to question when it&#8217;s needed.</p>
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