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	<title>Comments on: Anatomy of a really dumb series of moves</title>
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	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-175573</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 13:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-175573</guid>
		<description>I realize nobody is reading these comments at this point (the post is no longer even on the front page) but I have to relate this anecdote:

I was at the game.  I had a good seat where I could see Santana&#039;s stuff (his changeup looks &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; like his fastball), but as the game wore on I moved around to the outfield bleachers so I could sit in the sun.  I found myself sitting near a couple of Twins fans.  When this situation came up (and let&#039;s not overlook the fact that the situation was created by two bunts -- ie smart strategy by Gardenhire) and Hargrove came out to the mound, they started discussing the situation loudly enough for me to overhear.  They were surprised Hargrove was pulling Washburn at that point, because he&#039;s a lefty and Mauer had done nothing against him all day.  (I had to agree, though Washburn&#039;s pitchcount was at 98.)  So at that point one of them actually said &quot;Well, I guess they want to bring in a groundball guy to avoid the sacrifice, or maybe load the bases and look for a double-play.&quot;  And I was just thinking &quot;Knowing Hargrove he&#039;ll bring in Mateo,&quot; hoping of course I was wrong -- and who should stroll out of the bullpen.  We all know what happened after that.  So as I sat there groaning, knowing that Hargrove actually thought Mateo was the guy to get a groundball even though we all know he&#039;s the &lt;i&gt;least&lt;/i&gt; likely to do that of any reliever on the statff, these guys said to the bleachers in general &quot;Man, your manager really sucks.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize nobody is reading these comments at this point (the post is no longer even on the front page) but I have to relate this anecdote:</p>
<p>I was at the game.  I had a good seat where I could see Santana&#8217;s stuff (his changeup looks <i>exactly</i> like his fastball), but as the game wore on I moved around to the outfield bleachers so I could sit in the sun.  I found myself sitting near a couple of Twins fans.  When this situation came up (and let&#8217;s not overlook the fact that the situation was created by two bunts &#8212; ie smart strategy by Gardenhire) and Hargrove came out to the mound, they started discussing the situation loudly enough for me to overhear.  They were surprised Hargrove was pulling Washburn at that point, because he&#8217;s a lefty and Mauer had done nothing against him all day.  (I had to agree, though Washburn&#8217;s pitchcount was at 98.)  So at that point one of them actually said &#8220;Well, I guess they want to bring in a groundball guy to avoid the sacrifice, or maybe load the bases and look for a double-play.&#8221;  And I was just thinking &#8220;Knowing Hargrove he&#8217;ll bring in Mateo,&#8221; hoping of course I was wrong &#8212; and who should stroll out of the bullpen.  We all know what happened after that.  So as I sat there groaning, knowing that Hargrove actually thought Mateo was the guy to get a groundball even though we all know he&#8217;s the <i>least</i> likely to do that of any reliever on the statff, these guys said to the bleachers in general &#8220;Man, your manager really sucks.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-175048</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 01:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-175048</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it was not a defensible move by any possible train of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it was not a defensible move by any possible train of thought.</p>
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		<title>By: darrylzero</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-175045</link>
		<dc:creator>darrylzero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 00:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-175045</guid>
		<description>Josh, yeah, the GB issue tends to overshadow the cost/benefit issue, but I think it&#039;s huge.  That was recklessly protecting a lead as if we&#039;d be doomed if the game was tied.  Then we scored 3 more runs later...you&#039;d hope he could learn from that but it&#039;s clearly not true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, yeah, the GB issue tends to overshadow the cost/benefit issue, but I think it&#8217;s huge.  That was recklessly protecting a lead as if we&#8217;d be doomed if the game was tied.  Then we scored 3 more runs later&#8230;you&#8217;d hope he could learn from that but it&#8217;s clearly not true.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-175021</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 00:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-175021</guid>
		<description>Consider not only that Mateo is the least likely to get a groundball of those options mentioned, but he is also amongst the least likely to stop the batter from reaching base. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt against some of the other questionable pitchers, Reitsma, Sherill and Putz all have to be considered better at simply getting the batter out, as well as, to varying degrees, getting groundballs.

Point being that I&#039;d love to get a double play, but if not, I&#039;d rather have a sac fly (2-2) than a couple of doubles (6-2).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consider not only that Mateo is the least likely to get a groundball of those options mentioned, but he is also amongst the least likely to stop the batter from reaching base. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt against some of the other questionable pitchers, Reitsma, Sherill and Putz all have to be considered better at simply getting the batter out, as well as, to varying degrees, getting groundballs.</p>
<p>Point being that I&#8217;d love to get a double play, but if not, I&#8217;d rather have a sac fly (2-2) than a couple of doubles (6-2).</p>
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		<title>By: davepaisley</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-175006</link>
		<dc:creator>davepaisley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 23:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-175006</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be more impressed if Batista had said, 

&quot;Well, if Grover would just stop using Gas Can in high leverage situations, we&#039;d win a lot more games before Felix gets back.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be more impressed if Batista had said, </p>
<p>&#8220;Well, if Grover would just stop using Gas Can in high leverage situations, we&#8217;d win a lot more games before Felix gets back.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-174974</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-174974</guid>
		<description>can we make Batista manager?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Miguel Batista believes that the best way to safeguard the health of Seattle Mariners staff ace Felix Hernandez is to win without him. 

&quot;We have to make sure we get ourselves in a good position,&quot; Batista said. &quot;When Felix comes back, you don&#039;t want him to force himself to win. He&#039;ll pitch his heart out, because we&#039;d be in a tight situation. The more comfortable we make it for him, the better he&#039;ll be.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can we make Batista manager?</p>
<blockquote><p>Miguel Batista believes that the best way to safeguard the health of Seattle Mariners staff ace Felix Hernandez is to win without him. </p>
<p>&#8220;We have to make sure we get ourselves in a good position,&#8221; Batista said. &#8220;When Felix comes back, you don&#8217;t want him to force himself to win. He&#8217;ll pitch his heart out, because we&#8217;d be in a tight situation. The more comfortable we make it for him, the better he&#8217;ll be.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Nuss</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-174973</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 22:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-174973</guid>
		<description>Some do. It&#039;s just that it takes an organizational shift in thinking -- read Moneyball if you want to know why more managers don&#039;t manage that way.

Baseball is old. The way most of them think is old. In fact, I was over at &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/mariners/?blog=44&amp;c=1&amp;page=1&amp;more=1&amp;title=ok_fire_em_all_and_then_what&amp;tb=1&amp;pb=1&amp;disp=single&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Mariners Insider&quot;&lt;/a&gt; this morning and this is what an old beat writer had to say: &quot;As for the lads at Big Boat Mariners, there&#039;s a reason they manage a web site and not a major league team.&quot;

Well, duh -- they&#039;re forward thinking individuals, not old former baseball players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some do. It&#8217;s just that it takes an organizational shift in thinking &#8212; read Moneyball if you want to know why more managers don&#8217;t manage that way.</p>
<p>Baseball is old. The way most of them think is old. In fact, I was over at <a href="http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/mariners/?blog=44&amp;c=1&amp;page=1&amp;more=1&amp;title=ok_fire_em_all_and_then_what&amp;tb=1&amp;pb=1&amp;disp=single" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Mariners Insider&#8221;</a> this morning and this is what an old beat writer had to say: &#8220;As for the lads at Big Boat Mariners, there&#8217;s a reason they manage a web site and not a major league team.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, duh &#8212; they&#8217;re forward thinking individuals, not old former baseball players.</p>
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		<title>By: mycroft</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-174967</link>
		<dc:creator>mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-174967</guid>
		<description>Everything said about leverage makes sense to me.  I would ask, though, why don&#039;t any managers seem to follow this logic (hopefully, I&#039;m not missing someone obvious)?  It&#039;s one thing to dismiss Hargrove as a short-bus kinda guy, but shouldn&#039;t someone in the rest of the league be smarter?  In particular, we&#039;ve seen the rise of some young, smart GMs in the past few years, yet their teams seem to retain the closer role.

It just makes me wonder if there&#039;s something else factoring in.  For example, my impression from interviews is that relievers consider it really important to know their roles.  Do they just bitch and moan too much when anyone proposes using them more flexibly?

Just curious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything said about leverage makes sense to me.  I would ask, though, why don&#8217;t any managers seem to follow this logic (hopefully, I&#8217;m not missing someone obvious)?  It&#8217;s one thing to dismiss Hargrove as a short-bus kinda guy, but shouldn&#8217;t someone in the rest of the league be smarter?  In particular, we&#8217;ve seen the rise of some young, smart GMs in the past few years, yet their teams seem to retain the closer role.</p>
<p>It just makes me wonder if there&#8217;s something else factoring in.  For example, my impression from interviews is that relievers consider it really important to know their roles.  Do they just bitch and moan too much when anyone proposes using them more flexibly?</p>
<p>Just curious.</p>
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		<title>By: mikethomas22</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-174952</link>
		<dc:creator>mikethomas22</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 21:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-174952</guid>
		<description>hideous hideous hargrove. i would be a better manager right now. that&#039;s the sad truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hideous hideous hargrove. i would be a better manager right now. that&#8217;s the sad truth.</p>
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		<title>By: dks</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/comment-page-2/#comment-174943</link>
		<dc:creator>dks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 20:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/04/20/anatomy-of-a-really-dumb-series-of-moves/#comment-174943</guid>
		<description>Fangraphs says both IBB&#039;s hurt, though not much -- -0.017 WPA for the first, -0.005 for the second.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fangraphs says both IBB&#8217;s hurt, though not much &#8212; -0.017 WPA for the first, -0.005 for the second.</p>
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