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The M’s are insane
Eric O’Flaherty is coming up from Tacoma and will join the team in Anaheim. Brandon Morrow will move from the bullpen to the rotation and make Felix’s scheduled start in Texas on Monday.
Yes folks, Brandon Morrow is going to make his first major league start, on the road, in the bandbox that is whatever they’re calling The Ballpark in Arlington now.
Brandon Morrow threw an inning on April 3rd, an inning on April 10th, and an inning on April 14th. During spring training, his longest outing was two innings, he threw 8 1/3 total innings in the month of March. In his professional debut last year in the Arizona and Cal Leagues, his longest outing was three innings.
The last time Brandon Morrow threw more than 3 innings in a ballgame was May 5th, 2006 against the Stanford Cardinal.
And now, he’s being asked to go into a severe hitters park and make his first major league start, after having spent the entire spring being used as a reliever, and then sitting on his hands for the better part of April.
This organization is ridiculous.
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i was wondering if it was official…so who do they move for eric or is felix going on the DL?
Felix will go on the DL.
It’s good to know that the fine Mariners tradition of destroying young pitchers is still going strong.
Ridiculous like a fox!
Man, I know this is stupid, but I’m just going to go ahead and hope he can somehow stick in the rotation. Not like there’s anything I can do about it anyway. Let’s see it Brandon.
You have got to be kidding me. When I first saw O’Flaherty and Morrow listed together I thought, “Great, swap the two and put Morrow in Tacoma’s rotation.”
No… that would actually make some sense. Do we have an over/under on how many innings Morrow will last on Monday? I say 3.
Who’s payroll are Bavasi and Hargrove actually on? This decision is enough to boggle the mind.
So let’s just release Woods! WTF???
I’m speechless…
#4 - even if he does an incredible job, there is such a thing as building up to the starters role. Crap, bring him in to long relieve after Felix goes down. At least he’d have had a few more innings under his belt. He’s going from nothing to being expected to go 6 innings with no major league starting experience, and virtually no MLB experience relieving. Want to talk about endangering an arm . .sheesh, this is crazy.
3 innings is probably a good estimate. You’ve got a fastball hitting team going up against a guy with no real offspeed pitch. He’s going to get lit up.
i just hope he beats the odds…is at least decent…and makes the rotation…get rid of weaver…although that’s almost impossible with his contract…
This just seems like an injury waiting to happen.
Maybe if he’s lit up the M’s will figure it out and send him down to Tacoma or West Tenn to start there.
What a joke, how can anyone think he has the arm strength to go out and start? Even if he does we taxing his arm way too early…f’n joke!
As Dave has previously pointed out:
Lincecum - in AAA.
Homer Bailey - in AAA.
Phil Hughes - in AAA.
Luke Hochevar - in AAA.
Andrew Miller - in AAA.
Adam Miller - in AAA.
Yovani Gallardo - in AAA.
All have more professional innings as starters under their belts than Morrow. All are probably more polished and ready for the show than Morrow.
Brandon Morrow - starting in the bigs, vs. Texas.
Do the math.
12 - No doubt. I’m hoping Morrow performs horribly and is immediately sent to West Tenn.
Of course, he’ll probably get lit up and the M’s will just keep on sending him out there.
On the upside… at least he won’t get injured on his way to the Majors?
And I can’t say that Bavasi is totally not giving a crap about the future of the team given the arbitration-avoidance signings of Yuni and Jose. Hargrove, however, well, he’s just Hargrove.
Is the Rainiers rotation so set that they can’t fit Morrow in? Is there no one on the Rainiers who can come up to fill Morrows spot in the Seattle bullpen and pitch once a week?
This injury to Felix and the ineptitude of the rest of the M’s rotation should be evidence enough that Morrow needs to be down in AAA (or AA) working on his stamina, other pitches and getting accustomed to a starting role. I don’t understand why we’re delaying his progress.
Frustrating!
“Oooh ooohh Dream Weaver, I believe you can get us through the ninth…” EEEEEEEEERRRRRRRCCCCCCHHHHH (sound of record needle scratching).
Doesn’t it make a bit more sense to have Woods start? Even though he’s not that good, at least he’s stretched out and putting him there doesn’t disrupt the rest of the bullpen much.
17. We’re delaying his progress because Bavasi and co. are trying to pull every rabbit out of the hat that they can to save their jobs…
We need to unload one of our two catching prospects sharing time at Tacoma.
The only problems with putting Morrow in the rotation is either he isn’t ready for that yet or we are going to blow out his arm by overusing him.
Of course, those happen to be 2 very big problems. . .
I’m fine with putting Morrow in the roto, but it needed to happen later in the season when Weaver finally got DFAed instead of right now.
This is too much, too soon for someone who hasn’t pitched many innings in his baseball career. Just ask Mr. Prior in Chicago.
Parque is butter. Bring him up.
15- Or he could get shelled and the M’s decide he can only be a reliever. Also known as Soriano Syndrome.
17-The Rainiers rotation has been pretty solid lately. There’s no reason they couldn’t call up Baek, Justin Lehr or maybe even Campillo for a spot start. The Rainiers have quite the collection of 5th starter/long reliever fringe types. Hell, Parque went 7 IP, 1ER last night
I’m not defending the move, but we shouldn’t assume that the Mariners are expecting six innings out of him. They could plan to only send him out for 4-5 and have somebody else go the distance.
17. We’re delaying his progress because Bavasi and co. are trying to pull every rabbit out of the hat that they can to save their jobs…
Then why do they also keep pulling out oversized rabbits that don’t fit in the hat, ruin the magic trick, and get the audience pissed . . . I am thinking Mateo here. I think Bavasi cares more about his young talent than we are giving him credit for, which is why the Morrow decisions seem to be so weird. Did Grover get to make the call on this exclusively?
I’m not defending the move, but we shouldn’t assume that the Mariners are expecting six innings out of him. They could plan to only send him out for 4-5 and have somebody else go the distance.
I’m sure he’ll have a 75 pitch limit or something similar. But that doesn’t make this any better of a move. If you want to stretch Morrow out to make him a starter, do it in the minors. Or, at least, do it in Safeco, where every fastball he leaves up in the zone won’t get into the Texas air and carry 800 feet.
There are so many other, better choices. This is just a ridiculous decision made by people who don’t deserve to have their jobs.
25- I don’t think that’s even the issue. The Mariners have chosen quite possibly the worst situation for him to make his first start. If you’re going to start him in the majors fine, but he should do it against KC at home.
3 would be a good outcome. I’m worried he fatigues badly (from underuse), his mechanics fall apart and he shreds his elbow in the 5th inning.
I’d rather he just be ineffective and get yanked in the 3rd.
#28 - I don’t think the objections are exclusively venue, though that is huge for me. There are valid concerns about how ready he is to make a start at this point in the season at all. It’s not only the wrong place, but the wrong time given his experience level, and brief minor league career.
Oh, I completely agree. But since I have no power over the situation at all, I’m just going think about what a great story it will be if we can miraculously stick and fix our rotation problems.
It’s like going all-in when you think you might draw the flush or something. You probably won’t, and you could lose a lot of money. But it’s not just scary, it’s also exciting. I choose to focus on the latter for now and let my dreams get crushed later.
But of course, I understand choosing to focus on the former. Usually I’m right there with you guys. I can’t explain the difference this time, maybe just desperation. But for whatever inexplicable reason, I just feel excited.
#30- I should have been more clear with that. I’m not saying he should be starting in the majors. I’d send him down to Tacoma for that. I just meant that if you’re dead-set on starting him in the bigs, it should be against a lousy team at home.
They could plan to only send him out for 4-5 and have somebody else go the distance.
He is probably only slated to go 5 at most, considering he’s not stretched out at all, but God, could Mike Hargrove make the flop sweat dripping from his brow about the season any MORE obvious?
Then there’s the problem that Morrow’s not even pitching that well… oh, Jesus.
(puts head in hands) WHY GOD WHY?
Oh, and way to mail it in, Bavasi.
What the, what the, what the…. What’s the record for fewest professional innings — not major-league innings, PROFESSIONAL innings — before your first major-league start? How is this a good plan? Wow.
And Jake Woods? I’m not a booster of his, but he pitched creditably on short notice the other day, and his reward, from a team that is suddenly desperate for arms, is… “bye bye”. What? What the?
I’m getting a mental picture of an M’s front office with a lot of yelling and theatrical wall-pounding. Panic, anyone?
It may be the wrong decision, but honestly — it’ll be fun to watch. We’ll all be watching.
Why do we all feel like the only one in the room who doesn’t know what’s going on is the one who gets to make the decisions?
How perceptive are Lincoln/Armstrong/Ownership? Do they even realize the ineptitude of their manager and GM? What scenarios, besides losing 90 games, would ever drive them to spurn this collection of dolts?
With decisions like these being made, I would almost say that losing 90 games is the best thing that could happen to this team this year.
So I’m looking for any analogues, any sort of player that’s had as screwed up a rise to the majors as Morrow that’s gone on to have success. Even someone like Jeremy Bonderman who was rushed to the majors got to spend a whole year at A-level minor ball. And I’m not seeing any pitchers who were drafted and sent straight to the majors that did anything then relieve for their first few years. This is just insane.
I like the move…I’m sure they stretched him out yesterday and he is probably ready to go 4-5…possibly 6 innings…maybe 75 pitches….Why not see what you got in him. He went to college so its not like he’s a 19 year old. Lots of times pitchers have success right out of the gate before there is a book out on them…ala the other Weaver.
Well, I thought that Morrow should get more work, this isn’t what I had in mind. I’d like this move in July maybe… Rather bring up Campillo or anybody at this point.
Sometimes I wish Bavasi would read M’s Blogs and just go with the majority decision.
It’s been said before, and it’ll probably said a million times, but It’s really hard to root for this team when you hate most of Management’s moves and want most of them to be fired.
Jim Abbott went straight from pitching for Michigan in ‘88 to pitching for the Angels in ‘89 without a stop in the minors. Of course, he came to spring training as a starter, and was used as a starter exclusively.
David Clyde was sent from HS straight to the majors in 1973 after being the #1 overall pick, was predictably terrible, and was out of baseball after by age 24.
There are a couple other examples, but its very rare, and the track record isn’t good.
And Morrow has terrible mechanics. Pitching for a long stretch, particularly after such a long period of not pitching, may well send him down the road of Soriano, Madritsch, et. al.
This was my motto coming into this season: “The 2007 Seattle Mariners: They’ll be better than the Royals, damn it!”
I’m (pretty) sure the M’s will win more games this season, but even Kansas City seems to have a better foundation and strategy for success.
Morrow in the second inning: “My god, why can’t I get this number nine hitter out?”
Woods and Prior on the other hand were also in the majors early in their career, and now are both on the suspect list with chronic arm issues. (managerial decisions didn’t help in these cases either)
Oh god no.
wheres your source for Woods getting released?
man, Woods did nothing wrong, and did everything we asked.
ok, maybe i like the average, generic long man in the pen a bit much. You guys have probably all liked someone that nobody outside of the org. knew about.
anyways, way to kill off a prospect
Woods hasn’t been released. He was optioned back to Tacoma.
This is really stupid. I do not mind the O’Flaherty call-up, but why not send Morrow down and bring Woods up (Maybe this can’t be done. MLB’s options rules confuse me.) Much like last night’s Mateo decision, this is the worst decision they could make. Throwing White out as a starter is a smarter move. Sure, it will probably result in a loss, but at least he has been stretched out for more than an inning.
So in your opinion Dave, who should get the 2-4 starts that Felix is going to miss? Campillo, Woods, Baek, Feierabend? I think any of these would be fine, as long as we get Morrow a AAA or AA start first.
then who in the comments got/made up that info? i knew he was optioned yesterday, but theres a couple posts about him being released.
I’d rather see Woods start then Morrow at this point in time, im sure that most people agree.
hey, some people like willie way too much (95% of fairweather fans) but i guess i’m in the minority for liking the long reliever too much. I hope he doesnt get an important role, or a permanent starting role.
ok, my rant about Woods is over.
-signed, the guy whos read ussm since august 04
50. I think they have to wait for 10 days before they can recall Woods from AAA once they option him down.
A question to those who know more than I: If Morrow has been stretching out his arm in bullpen sessions, is there any difference between that and pitching in a real game (other than the mental aspect of course).
A question to those who know more than I: If Morrow has been stretching out his arm in bullpen sessions, is there any difference between that and pitching in a real game (other than the mental aspect of course).
Relievers don’t throw bullpen sessions like starters do. They keep their arms fresh to make sure they’re available everyday.
And yes, there’s a huge, huge difference between throwing a bullpen session and facing live hitting in front of 30,000 people. Not just mentally, but physically. It’s apples and oranges.
I took this as sarcasm.
53
What if Woods is replacing a player who is going on the DL (Felix)? O’Flaherty could then take Morrow’s spot on the 25 man. Is this feasible?
Why does anyone have to go down? Can’t we just DL Felix and bring up O’Flaherty? I don’t understand.
Dave –
Any chance that there could be a silver lining here? If Morrow gets bombed in Texas, might they send him down (where he could work in the minors as a starter), leave O’Flaherty as a reliever in Seattle, and call up Baek to replace Morrow? When all is said and done, we might get the result we wanted (granted, not in exactly the way we would have wanted).
Woods was already sent down when Green was called up. The M’s wanted a fresh arm after burning through Woods on Wednesday. Felix to the DL will open up a spot for O’Flaherty.
Essentially, the M’s are choosing to have O’Flaherty around as a second LOOGY rather than having Woods around as a second mopup guy. With Sean White, they already have a mopup guy, and you don’t really need two of those.
don’t you have to pass a player through waivers if you were to take him off the 40 man? maybe thats not the case with morrow, being in the org. for so few years
58
Since Woods is currently in Tacoma, there is not another “starter” in the bullpen, except for Morrow. And most of us in this thread would rather not see that happen for the reasons listed above. So to bring up O’Flaherty and a starter to the 25 man, someone would have to go down along with Felix to the DL.
Mhmm lets see…..next 6 games loss,loss,loss,loss,loss and…..loss
That is all, season over
Any chance that there could be a silver lining here? If Morrow gets bombed in Texas, might they send him down (where he could work in the minors as a starter), leave O’Flaherty as a reliever in Seattle, and call up Baek to replace Morrow? When all is said and done, we might get the result we wanted (granted, not in exactly the way we would have wanted).
I don’t want to see Brandon Morrow get bombed. It’s bad for the team winning, it’s bad for Morrow’s confidence, and it’s bad for the organization’s view of his potential as a starting pitcher.
My Woods comment was meant to imply that there is no use for Woods if don’t use him in this exact situation.
I agree with all that, my point was simply that, given the well-established stupidity of the Mariners management, this might be the only way we get to the result we wanted in the first place. Not ideal, to be sure, but better in the long-run than watching Morrow wither in the bullpen in Seattle for a wasted season.
I don’t think Morrow getting sent back to West Tennessee after taking a beating in the majors is the same as if he would have started the year there. It’s not an undo button.
Would he be better off in West Tennessee? Yea, but I’m not sure having him take a pounding to get there doesn’t do more harm than good.
At this point, I think the best case scenario is that he makes some big strides with his command and improves the consistency of his slider, holds his own in the rotation, and gets a lot of help from his defense. It’s the unlikeliest scenario, but if we’re rooting for something, that’s the one to pick.
So Monday’s game has went from an almost automatic win, to a guaranteed automatic loss. By then 5-3 will seem like a distant memory.
Why though? If I go into the bull pen and throw 100 pitches at max effort with some estimated amount of rest in between each pitch, why is that any different? There’s a multitude of emotional and mental differences, I just don’t see how it could be different. It’s the same motion repeated over and over again.
At this point, I think the best case scenario is that he makes some big strides with his command and improves the consistency of his slider, holds his own in the rotation, and gets a lot of help from his defense. It’s the unlikeliest scenario, but if we’re rooting for something, that’s the one to pick.
Do you suppose there is any chance that if Morrow does well in his few starts that the Mariners will tell him that he impressed them so much as a starter that they want him to the minors to keep starting so that he’s available as a starter later in the season in case someone else gets injured?
Why though? If I go into the bull pen and throw 100 pitches at max effort with some estimated amount of rest in between each pitch, why is that any different? There’s a multitude of emotional and mental differences, I just don’t see how it could be different. It’s the same motion repeated over and over again.
Have you ever pitched?
There’s a huge difference in facing a hitter versus throwing the ball at a glove.
Do you suppose there is any chance that if Morrow does well in his few starts that the Mariners will tell him that he impressed them so much as a starter that they want him to the minors to keep starting so that he’s available as a starter later in the season in case someone else gets injured?
No. If he does well, he’ll stay in the rotation.
How about if we hope that Morrow does okay in the rotation (not great, but not bad), that O’Flaherty is lights-out in the bullpen, and when Felix comes back they make the wise decision that Morrow should continue to start, but do it in Tacoma?
No. If he does well, he’ll stay in the rotation.
And when Felix comes back we can say good bye to Weaver?
I am rooting for this senario.
No need to fret everyone. Its all good. Ya see, Morrow is just ‘auditioning’ for a couple of teams interested in a trade. The front office is looking for a veteran presence that can platoon with Ichiro in CF.
/puke
I love this move!!!
Only for the sheer ridiculousness of it.
Wow! I cannot believe what I’m reading. Dave correct me if I’m wrong but Morrow’s never gone through a minor league rotation more then once maybe twice, God forbid what the Texas hitters are going to do to him the 2nd or 3rd time through. Oh mighty baseball Gods please be kind to him.
No, I haven’t pitched. But that also doesn’t answer my question. The physical movement of pitching a baseball shouldn’t be any different whether there is a batter there or not. Adrenaline may be involved, but other than that it doesnt make sense. It’s like a golf swing. Your swing should (and hopefully is) the same whether you are alone at a course or playing at the Masters. If I want to throw a pitch to get the hitter to chase, you are going through the same physical motion whether the hitter is there or not. Sure, there is no hitter to send that hanging breaking ball 450 feet into the seats, but I don’t understand why the physical motion would be any different.
You’re just now noticing that this organization is ridiculous? Also, this suggests, as other commenters have noted, this makes it more likely that Felix’ injury is more serious than we’ve been led to believe, and that he will be going on the DL.
Also, why in the name of anything holy would anyone want anything out of this situation other than for Morrow to be lights out nasty?
The M’s praised for taking special care of Felix through his development to ensure he was an asset for the team for many years. They protected his arm, worked on his body, cared for his psyche. If it was good and wise for Felix, why has anything they have done for Morrow, this move included, been good for his development? Why would you handle either any differently? Can it be the need to win now attitude? There is no tomorrow?
If I were Morrow, I would have to seriously ask myself if this organization has my best interest in consideration!
The M’s were praised…
No, I haven’t pitched. But that also doesn’t answer my question. The physical movement of pitching a baseball shouldn’t be any different whether there is a batter there or not.
Fatigue doesn’t only come from the repetitive motion of moving your arm in a certain way. There’s a tangible effect on a pitcher’s body that comes from pitching in a game situation that simply cannot be recreated in a bullpen session.
You’re just now noticing that this organization is ridiculous? Also, this suggests, as other commenters have noted, this makes it more likely that Felix’ injury is more serious than we’ve been led to believe, and that he will be going on the DL.
I said in comment #2 that Felix is going on the DL - that’s not news. We’ve known since yesterday that he would miss 10-20 days, which made a DL stint obvious.
If I were Morrow, I would have to seriously ask myself if this organization has my best interest in consideration!
I’m sure he’s thrilled to be getting $320,000 this year instead of the $50,000 or so he would have earned in West Tennessee.
Well if Felix returns on schedule, who is the odd man out? I suppose it depends on how Weaver is pitching. If Weaver’s outings are half-way decent, I can’t imagine Morrow stays in the rotation. What do you do with him then? Jerk him around some more by putting him back in the pen?
Dave, is there any possibility that Brandon could be on a REALLY short leash as to limit the amount of damage that can be done to his psyche…. I’m grasping at straws here…
There are two things at play here: Reality and hope. Sure, we all want Morrow to do well. Realistically, though, the chances of that are pretty slim. Therefore, I proposed a silver-lining in the event that, as can be expected, Morrow is bombed on Monday.
They are forcing him into permanent career retardation. Great.
Oi, this makes me head hurt.
we’re all so excited these days about elbows, lets not forget shoulders and labrums…
I am openly hoping that Morrow does fail, and someone in the organization comes to their senses. There simply is so little precedent for this turning out well that we can only hope that his poor performance forces them to send him down.
I’m not worried about his pysche - I’m worried about him getting the opportunity to properly learn his craft. He’ll probably live if he’s sent down.
Come to their senses? What senses?
fwiw, Clyde also had off-field issues that played into his shortened career …
I don’t get why they didn’t bring Baek up, considering that he has actually pitched in the rotation in the majors. The way the organization handles pitchers, they are thisclose to having the bad side of a Dwight Gooden situation on their hands.
That’s funny. I recall in Tin Cup when his “buddy” Don Johnson’s character says, “Hell, Roy, great players shoot an 80 in the US Open.”
Any activity even if repeatable is not the same activity if the surrounding environment– the stressors– change. Yeah, sure, IN THEORY it is the same. But it isn’t. Not even close. Miles and Miles away– the difference between… well, shooting a 72 at the local muni, and shooting a 72 with Tiger nipping at your heels.
But Atait– there is a very significant mental aspect to pitching and having success and believing in yourself. DO NOT wish Morrow to fail. Unless you want Rick Ankiel starting in RF for us next year…
Brownian motion makes for a great knuckleball, but it sure is a lousy way to manage a team.
I disagree. The physical motion of the golf swing should be exactly the same. I understand that the stressors put on an individual are different in high pressure situations. I’m not arguing that. What I AM arguing is that the strength to build up endurance to be able to throw a baseball does not necessarily need to be done in a competitive environment. The muscles do not know that they are not involved in a game. They are doing the same thing you ask of them when involved in a competitive activity.
But you’re arguing from a theoretical point that isn’t true. I don’t know what else to tell you. A bullpen session does not build up stamina like in-game action.
I agree with Dave… and I’m not even a baseball player. In any athletic event, there is a mental strain that takes a toll (a significant one) on the body. Anyone who’s involved in competitive athletics knows this. I’d imagine the mental strain and concentration take a bigger toll on a major league pitcher than for most of athletes — especially a minor league pitcher pretending he’s a major league pitcher. You seem to like golf: ask Tiger if his body is more tired after a practice round, or after a round at the Masters.
It’s obvious man. Dave’s right, just accept that on this one.
To pull an analogy from martial arts, since I know that better than baseball:
Nearly every legitimate martial art, these days, involves some form of “live” training, mostly sparring.
The mental and physical stress of being in an actual combat situation, albeit one under controlled conditions, makes an enormous difference in the intensity of the training and the value you get out of the training.
You need to do drills and form training FIRST so you can ingrain the techniques into both mental and muscle memory; but there really isn’t anything that can accurately simulate the stress involved with actually using the skills in a “live-fire” situation.
Runners on base? Moves to first base, concerns about stealing that distract from focus? Approach and pitch selection changing with the hitters and the line-up? Getting behind on hitters who may punish you for that? Mechanics going out the window in front of 40,000 people, . . . the list goes on.
I don’t like golf very much at all, it’s just another example of a competitive motion that should theoretically be the same no matter what. I did not use the example of a football being thrown or a jump shot taken because it is impossible to recreate the same scenario in practice as it is in game. Again, I ask you: WHY is it different? So far you have told me “it just is so accept it”. I accept that it’s more labor on an arm to throw in a game than in a bullpen session. What I’m asking is why.
And really, let’s not get into the “if you’ve ever done a competitive sport thing”. You don’t blow out an arm from mental strain.
99-
I understand that, but, in my opinion, pitching a baseball and competing in combatitive training are so vastly different they aren’t even comparable.
100-
And again, “stretching an arm out” and “staying focused” or “avoding mental strain” are two incredibly different things.
Dylan…are you listening to what people are saying? It does not appear you’re taking into account what, say, #94 was saying, or #99 was saying–they’ve given some concrete answers to the question “Why?”
The pitcher vs. hitter matchup is in many ways directly analogous to a fight.
In baseball:
You’re trying, as a pitcher, to use a technique that the batter does not expect (pitch selection) to a location that the batter does not expect (location) in order to make him unable to respond successfully (getting him out).
In fighting:
You’re trying, as the aggressor, to use a technique that the defender does not expect (strike selection) to a location that the defender does not expect (strike location) in order to make him unable to respond successfully (hitting him).
‘Nuff said?
Dylan, what’s being said is stretching an arm out via bullpen =! live game. You don’t face batters, umpires, strike calls, pickofff throwsm pitch selection.
Yes, you may get some muscle memory and endurance/experience of faitgue from bullpen session…but then you’re adding the muscle memory and endurance/fatigue to in-game situations that you haven’t been in. You might be pitching from the stretch a lot more in a real game as opposed to bullpen, for instance.
I’m sorry, I wasn’t trying to be condescending at all. I was just trying to explain.
I can see we’re going to disagree no matter what. Here’s the fundamental difference in what you and I believe:
I believe mental strain does have a tangible affect on the body. Mental fatigue creates muscle fatigue, sometimes strain on the joints. I won’t back down from that because I know it to be true.
You believe mental strain can’t have an affect on the body. Not sure why, but that’s fine — you either don’t have experience with that or just won’t accept it.
I’ll agree to disagree, no hard feelings.
No, the analogy doesn’t work. You are leaving an entirely different part of the process out. You don’t need to defend yourself as a pitcher. It is you with the ball 66 feet 6 inches away from the plate every single time. You are pitching either from the windup or from the stretch. In fighting, there are so many different variations on technique, spacial relationships, and most importantly, self defense. The Pitcher does not need to react to anything that the batter does during or after the pitch (except for a base hit or something up the middle I suppose). Once the ball leaves his hand the pitcher has zero control over what happens. All decisions are made before the actual pitch occurs (on the pitchers side).
Edit: I got abit overzealous with the 6’s there, should be 60 6. My apologies
And no, that’s not what I’m saying at all. Mental strain absolutely has a negative effect on the body. Somoene under mental strain is going to have to work harder to do something perfectly than someone who is not. What I refuse to believe is that mental strain will effect the so called “stretching out of an arm”. It may make a pitcher better equipped to handle the pressure of the situation, but it shouldn’t change anything physiologically.
So wait, you’re telling me it’s not the exact same thing?
Cool, because you know, I’ve been saying that it’s exactly the same.
Perhaps you’re not clear on what the word “analogy” means.
In a stressful situation (for example, a real game), how about the release of adrenaline that affects the cardiovascular system, various body parts, and the ability to mentally focus? Come on, Dylan — do you live in a plastic bubble? Are you not flesh and blood?
“The Pitcher does not need to react to anything that the batter does during or after the pitch”
Your right, he doesn’t need to. But he does, mentally. He’s responsible for the result, whether good or bad.
He even reacts physically on some plays — for one, his body and neck torque to follow the ball; he has to think about backing up a throw, or covering first, and then taking the physical steps to doing these things.
There’s so much more involved, it’s just not even close. At all.
What I refuse to believe is that mental strain will effect the so called “stretching out of an arm”.
Look, pitching a baseball so that it goes somewhere in a rectangle-size area 60 feet 6 inches away at a speed of anywhere from 80 to 95 is muscle memory, right? Which is a physiological phenomenon, right?
So, contrast a bullpen mound to a mound with 25,000 fans, bases to cover, pitching signs/prgressions to go through, batters and umpires, and so on. You’re damn right it affects muscle memory. It’s not just stretching out the arm… what we’re saying is “stretched out in bullpen” =! “stretched out in game situations”.
There’s more to it than “stretching out an arm.” Pitching involves the whole body, and an in-game situation involves the whole body (and mind) in so many different ways.
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a·nal·o·gy –noun, plural -gies. 1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
I can make an analogy between writing a paper and swinging a baseball bat. Both use products made of wood. What I am telling you is that I reject your analogy because you leave out an incredibly important part. And really, there’s no need to be patronizing or question my intelligence. I don’t agree with you, it’s ok to disagree sometimes without making fun of each other.
112-
Again, the question has to do with the ability to make an arm viable to throw a particular number of pitches. In no way am I saying that a bull pen session can recreate a real life situation accurately. I am simply saying that an arm can be made stronger by doing so.
Dylan’s been using his PlayStation a bit too much…
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Brilliant addition to the discussion, thank you.
“It may make a pitcher better equipped to handle the pressure of the situation, but it shouldn’t change anything physiologically.”
That’s where we disagree. The mind affects the body physiologically. And frankly, you just agreed with me:
“Mental strain absolutely has a negative effect on the body. Someone under mental strain is going to have to work harder to do something perfectly than someone who is not.”
Exactly.
When pitchers run in to trouble, they may throw harder or be less focused on muscle/body control, and thus put more physical stress on their bodies, and especially arms. Also mental stress may very well play a factor, the effects of mental stess on the body are well documented, and in some cases severe.
There is a physical difference between pitching in the bull pen vs pitching in a game.
In the bull pen, you can establish a rhythm, in a game you have to go stretches of waiting for the batter to come to the plate, step out, etc.
In the bull pen, you work your way up to pitching strength, throwing light at first. In the game you are just about all out all the time.
In the bull pen you can throw a breaking pitch three times in a row to make sure you’ve got it right. In a game you’ll get hit throwing the same pitch three times in a row.
In the bull pen you can stop when you feel ready. In a game, you don’t stop until you’re pulled or the inning is over.
They all add up.
“Again, the question has to do with the ability to make an arm viable to throw a particular number of pitches.”
Theoretically, you could do this by exercise and not even throwing a ball.
I wonder why MLB pitchers don’t do this. Oh, that’s right- because the act of pitching involves muscle memory, not simply endurance.
“I am simply saying that an arm can be made stronger by doing so.” (bullpen session)
You’re right, but it’s made stronger through the stress of a game situation.
Pete-
Fatigue causes mental strain. Fatigue exists in the bull pen too. This does not discount the fact that AN ARM CAN BE MADE STRONGER BY THROWING IN THE BULL PEN. It is not ideal, but it is impossible that it is not effective. In a perfect world we would be able to simulate a real game with real consequences. We can’t. Therefore we do the next best thing. No one has told me why pitching in the bull pen won’t work, all they have said is that pitching in a game is better.
It’s a bullpen, not a bull pen, dammit.
Dylan,
Try this experiment. Go to a basketball court with a friend and stand at the free throw line. Bring ten balls and a rack. Shoot 10 balls from the rack neatly placed beside you in one minute, with your friend standing quietly behind you. Now shoot ten more in one minute, but invite your friend to harass you without actually touching you, running at you, hooting and hollering. Oh, and by the way, you can only use one ball and have to do your own rebounding. I suspect, you will do better the first time around.
Watch Shaq sink 80% of his free throws in practice and 50% in game situations, where he doesn’t even have a defender.
The point is that stress has a physiological impact on the body that impacts muscle coordination. I believe this has been very well studied at this point. That physiological impact has its greatest effect on concentration and fine motor coordination. Thus, a bullpen session cannot replicate actual in game experience because the pitcher does not have to struggle with the physiological impacts on his fine motor coordination. Add in the fact that actual in-game circumstances have additional physical demands beyond pitching such as warm up throws, unpredictable waits between innings, weather conditions, pick off throws, covering the bases (hitting in the NL) and the two circumstances just aren’t similar enough for a pitcher to become game ready from bullpen sessions alone. That is the point of spring training and the minor leagues.
I would further note that the physiological stressors increase the likelihood of a breakdown in mechanics with little or no opportunity to correct them in a game situation adding additional stress to the arm and building fatigue more quickly than in a bullpen session. In a bullpen session, the coaches will generally stop a session if a pitcher’s mechanics are breaking down to the point that it is concerning.
In any event, you asked for some specific reasons, several of which have been provided previously, but I hope this helps.
“AN ARM CAN BE MADE STRONGER BY THROWING IN THE BULL PEN. It is not ideal, but it is impossible that it is not effective.”
You’re right. This is true. If that’s all you want to prove, then you are absolutely right. We must have misunderstood each other along the way, because I never disagreed with that. I don’t think anyone else would disagree with this point either.
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Good point, the change in mechanics is quite valid. Bad mechanics lead to different arm angles, etc. You definitely can’t recreate that in the bull pen.
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You are in a rhythm, I tell you to step off the mound for 3 minutes. You warm up in a bull pen, you can throw your hardest in a bull pen. The catcher catching you calls FB, Slider, FB, FB, Curve, FB, all in different locations. You can’t stop throwing unless I tell you to stop.
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That’s exactly what I’m saying. Morrow could pitch tomorrow if he just bench pressed and did some shrugs. You nailed my argument down perfectly.
Most precise physical activities (like pitching) are goign to require some level of mind-body interaction, paying close attention to every muscle, not only directly involved with the action, but the whole body. It’s more neurological than just using muscles. It requires concentration, getting shelled or even just having to throw 90 pitches, without getting shelled is going to make it harder to concentrate on individual pitches, and in high leverage/stakes situations (like pitching in the MLB), a young player may be tempted to throw as hard as possible, which does not promote strengthing of the nervous connections, and actually can stress those connections. I believe it’s part of why Leo Mazzone was so succesful in Atlanta, getting the pitcher to hold back on their excertion (so throw 91-93 instead of 93-96) and throw MORE often. It’s similar to Pavel Tsatsouline’s Grease the Groove principals for strength training, lower intesity, more often, more attention to the mind-body connection. In the minors, a player can hold back more, and if they don’t go the distance, it doesn’t affect the MLB team’s W/L, thus lower stress, and thus “practice’ their pitches, strengthing those connections.
Now if only Felix would hold back some. Does he really need to throw THAT hard?
My only concern is: “What gets Mike Hargrove fired the quickest?”
This Felix down/start Morrow situation has good and bad aspects, but it’s really hard to figure out the most optimum scenario that still leaves the team in decent shape for McLaren.
What we disagree on is that a pitch thrown in the bullpen is the same as a pitch thrown in a game. They are not.
125-
Well written post and valid points. I agree with nearly all of it but it still really isn’t what I was originally getting at.
126- That’s all I’m trying to say. If I could do it again I would edit the original post to reflect that’s what I was intending.
“I’m pretty sure it means ‘Saint Diego.’”
“Agree to disagree.”
Yes, you can build up the stamina to throw 75-100 pitches with bullpen sessions. You cannot, however, develop the pin point control to be a successful MLB pitcher because it is impossible to simulate the impact of in game stressors on your fine motor coordination. Moreover, to exercise finer motor control as required in a game situation requires greater exertion and, accordingly, is more fatiguing. Consequently, if I have trained in the bullpen to throw 90 pitches, the extra exertion of a game situation (including the stress factors and the additional physical factors and the impact of conditions as listed previously), should cut into my ability to throw 90 pitches in an actual game situation. Since there is an upper limit to how many pitches we can throw in a bullpen session before it becomes a health risk, it may be impossible to train up to 100 or 110 in game pitches from a bullpen session.
Another example: Lets say you want to climb Everest without the aid of oxygen. To that end, you train yourself to the physical requirements necessary on Mt. Hood. You fly to Nepal and start up Everest with the requisite endurance and then realize you didn’t train in thin atmosphere and die. To climb Everest without oxygen, you need to train at increasingly higher elevations regardless of whether you have the physical strength and stamina to do it. Likewise, the vast majority of baseball players need to train at progressively higher levels to be able to compete at the highest level. If you rush them onto Everest (or into the big leagues) the results are similarly predictable.
Hmmm, I think I like ‘bull pen’ better than ‘bullpen’.
Relievers could where giant rings in their noses and throw more HBPs against teams wearing red.
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HAHAHA! Oh Ron, what an adorably ignorant anchorman. I love that movie.
I actually believe batters and fielders benefit from similar conditioning practice. Practice the different physical movements you’re involved in, regularly, at lower intensity. I have no proof, but it seems many of the players w/ longevity practice every day, are there early in the morning, or taking batting practice after a game, goin through drills, probably not at game-level intensity. Think Ichiro!, practicing every drill, different batting scenarios, every day. Or Edgar taking extra BP before and after games. When he wasn’t swinging at pitches, he was watching pitches. I think, while over doing anything physical can you, if the practice is not always at full intensity, regular “practice” strengthens the nervous connections involved in the activity, be it pitching, fielding, batting, swimming, weight lifting, or whatever else. You’re practicing the movements, instead of just building muscle. I know it works well for strength training, and does help reduce injury risk.
I think Dylan just mis-calculated his argument a bit. It is true that a bullpen session can stretch out an arm. It’s nothing at all like a game, but it does do that. If that’s all he means, then we should give him a break.
Cheers!
I would much rather have Morrow starting in the bigs than collecting 2 innings a week in the bullpen with the M’s. Neither one is really great at this time, though.
The start @ home against KC also makes more sense than going to Texas.
I’m also wondering about the > 3 innings issue.
Good post, Dave.
Bullpen sessions probably wouldn’t build up stamina/endurance the same as starting. I don’t know this for fact, but it makes sense.
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That’s what I’m saying. The general consensus seems to be that Morrow needs to stretch his arm out by throwing innings in live games. I wondered, however, if some of that time could be reduced by keeping his arm physically used to throwing that number (or more) pitches at a maximum effort. No argument from me concerning dealing with the crowd, facing Vlad, or having Figgins on first ready to steal. Those types of things can never be recreated. Of course someone would be sharper if they always got to pitch in live game situations, but when that isn’t possible there has to be something else.
One of the biggest problems I have with Morrow starting (and I have many) is that he’s been throwing a lot of pitches to get each out. He’s had a lot of 2 strike pitches fouled off and each appears to be a max effort pitch.
I think he’ll only last 2 innings because he’ll hit a pretty high pitch count in those innings and he’s just not able, at this stage, to induce some low pitch innings.
Although, if a player pitched more often (like every day, and at quite a bit lower than maximal effort), I suspect bullpen sessions could be very beneficial, even for a future starter. The problem is conditioning the pitcher into throwing 100+ pitches in a game, I just can’t see how being in the bullpen would accomplish that.
I love old baseball people. They’re just so wise.
I was on The News Tribune’s “Mariners Insider” blog this morning, responding to an entry called “Ok, Fire ‘Em All. And Then What?” I commented that situations like last nights could be avoided, then linked here. His response?
“As for the lads at Big Boat Mariners, there’s a reason they manage a web site and not a major league team.”
Gotta love old people. He has yet to respond to my response …
I think the general consensus is that the Mariners current plan is assisine. I don’t think any of us mean to say that, at least theoretically, Morrow could build adequate stamina to throw 90 pitches in a game through work in the bullpen and daily work. Studies have shown that mere visualisation is an effective training method, in part because it actually trains repetitive motions and in part because it helps to deal with outside stressors. I would hazard to guess that most of us, however, do not think Morrow can be an effective pitcher for 90 pitches in a big league setting without more seasoning in the minors, and even if he can, that it would be more beneficial for him to scale a lower level before attempting it at this level, not just because of the increased risk of injury, but because of the even more likely risk of delaying or stunting his development into the pitcher he could become.
I think if it like comparing going to the batting cage, versus hitting in an actual game.
I can strengthen the muscles involved by going to the cage, and I can work on my swing, but it’s not the same experience as live pitching, or hitting in an actual game.
I think Dylan is only talking about Morrow building up the neccesary strength to be a starter, not about developing actual game experience.
If it would help, the M’s can fly me and a bunch of friends to Texas, and we’d be happy to heckle Morrow as he does his bullpen work (to make it more realistic). I’m happy to help in any way I can.
145. Exactly. You must first have the strength to go out there and DO it before you learn how to HANDLE it.
Antonetti/Dierker in ‘08!
Cuban/Antonetti is what I’d rather see…
#147: Larry Dierker? I thought he had a brain tumor, or something like that..
#148: Who is Cuban? All I can think of is Mark Cuban, the owner of the NBA Mavericks.
Yeah. He is reportedly interested in buying the Cubsm and if that falls through, who knows. A guy can dream can’t he?
Which one of you guys updated the Brandon Morrow page on Wikipedia?
Did he ever pitch more than 3 innings this past March in ST? He’s logged a TOTAL of 3 innings since he made the 25-man roster — 4/3, 4/10, and 4/14, one inning each.
I can’t believe the Brain Trust is going to go through with this.
Dylan,
I’d agree with that, it’s just that we want to be able to say more than ‘Brandon Morrow has the physical strength/conditioning required to throw 70-90 pitches in his first start.’ He can develop that strength at home, in the bullpen, anywhere…it’s just not all that important.
I think there’s definitely some value in having him work long bullpen sessions ahead of his first MLB start; the guy’s pitched what, less than 30 innings of competitive/semi-competitive baseball since he was at Cal. It’s clearly better for him (in some ways) than languishing as the last guy in the pen for 2 weeks. But while it’s better than having him do laundry, and better than having him take piano lessons, it’s still not ideal. I think that’s why the argument started.
It’s not that he couldn’t get work in game situations, save for 3 garbage innings with almost no leverage. He could, and he could do so right now. That he won’t is…strange. But yeah, I guess, given that the M’s have ruled out the sensible plan, maybe a bullpen session *really is* the best they could do. You’ve gotta ask how we got to this point, though.
Weird.
I’ll be fascinated to see what kind of baseball owner Mark Cuban would be.
To be fair, I’d bet he’d hire a kick-ass GM… the more I think about this, the more I like it.
Mark Cuban would be interesting to watch as a baseball owner. I’m sure he wouldn’t ban “Yankees suck!” t-shirts from Safeco!
#144, I think visualization is VERY important for any physical activity, Pavel teaches that in his books, it’s a large part of what builds those connections up.
I see potential problems w/ him being in the majors too early, so I’ll sumarize the reasons I’ve stated in other posts in the thread.
1.) In a relief role, he’s more likely to go out and try to blow people away instead of actually practicing his pitches. Maximum effort is not going to help him learn to be a starter, or build up endurance, and would limit how often he could practice.
2.) In a starters role, getting shelled, or being in high leverage situations may make him concentrate on the game situation, more than on his mechanics, or not even focus at all, and if he’s not well conditioned, that could lead to increased injury risk.
3.) They’d be more likely to pace him (and I dont just mean pitch count limits) in AAA than in the MLB, not letting him get into a bunch of high stress situations, until he showed he could pitch consistently for 90 pitches.
4.) Mental stress (from an MLB game being on the line, for example) can cause it’s own problems, physically and mentally. I believe this is part of why confidence is so important for a pitcher.
I just don’t see how being in the Majors would REALLY allow him to practice enough to build up the stamina to be a starting pitcher in the MLB, without signifigantly increasing his injury risk, whether it’s in the Bullpen, or the rotation.
I think someone let the cat out of the bag too early on Morrow — check out the probables now on the MLB site.
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=sea
That sound you hear is some poor PR intern being fired.
156. I was trying to block out the upcoming pitching matchups for us ..LOL…. We are so done
Maybe the M’s brass listend to some of our logic here.
I’ll try not to hurt myself laughing too hard.
Even if Morrow is the world’s coolest character and game stress is not an issue, and even if he has taken the time in the bullpen to prepare for a starting role, we can pretty much all agree that game pitching is much more physically stressful, and it is also reasonable to say that BM will get taken to school at least by the second time through the line up, on account of never having pitched more than 3 innings in pro ball.
This is one of my favorite parts about baseball. Probablistic models and performance of human beings. Can BM overcome the predictions? And why do people get paid (ala Hargrove/Bavasi) to play against the odds and actually make things worse?
156
Good catch. Earlier in the day I checked the M’s official site for probables, and Morrow was on the docket to pitch Monday in Texas. Has any official announcement been made other than the initial listing of Morrow as Monday’s probable starter?
Add to that—
Pitchers have tactical and strategic plans to handle hitters. These plans are different for starters than for relievers. Being able to execute these plans (particularly in response to changing tactics and strategy from the batter) is just as important as the physical mechanics…and separates the good from the bad.
Morrow is not getting any work on executing these plans.
Nuss,
You and I are taking Larue to task! Hahaha. Just kidding. Fun though.
And people call us arrogant.
You referring to me DMZ?
No no no no… that someone would respond to “here’s a long, well-reasoned argument” with the dismissive “there’s a reason they’re on the internet”
Knowing the M’s, once Morrow gets shelled in Texas, they will instantly think he can’t be a starter and pigeonhole him as a reliever for the rest of his Mariner career.
The Mariners may be insane, but just think what fun there will be watching all crazy, wacky things they could do this season.
-Hargove as a player-manager. With the Human Rain Delay hitting second behind Ichiro, he has a .421 OBP.
-The Mariner Moose gets turned into a LOGGY out of the bullpen.
-Sanjaya becomes a Mariner radio announcer with Rick Rizzs and sits on Rizzs’ lap through the broadcast.
-Anything to do with Willie Bloomquist.
Mariner baseball, feel the insanity.
Oh ok, that’s what I thought at first. …I’m the guy (pwhit44) over there trying to explain the insanity of Hargrove’s Mateo decisions. …Not sure I’m doing a good job.
I can’t even count how many fallacies the “Internet” statement gives us.
LaRue is a good guy. He’s just trying to play devil’s advocate and generate discussion, bringing the insight of a guy who has covered Major League Baseball for a looooooooooooong time.
I do notice, however, that he still has yet to come up with a more cogent argument than “that’s the way most managers do it — they like their bullpen roles” and “managers like their comfort zones.”
My guess is, that’s the best Hargrove could come up with, too. Stupid.
Yeah, Larue is asking for something more concrete from us, but is only giving us “that’s the way most managers do it — they like their bullpen roles” and “managers like their comfort zones” in return. Kind of weird.
Mariners Baseball: “Why Oh Why?”
Not all that weird, since there isn’t a better argument.
He’s also making the argument that there would be very little to be gained by making a change immediately. We all disagree, using examples of Hargrove’s incompetence.
It would be nice if he could provide some objective evidence that Hargrove is doing a good job, but he’s neglected to do so. Both LaRue and Baker have simply tried to defend his decisions — not show us how he’s having a positive impact on the performance of the team.
So there you go.
God I’m glad I switched to the Rainiers season tickets.
The Mariners are clearly insane. No coherent, discernible, overall strategy. Just one strange isolated move after another. Sometimes, on an individual basis, the moves seem justifiable. Sometimes, (as in now), they’re completely ludicrous. When you add them all up, it’s like watching some weird physics experiment or something, with random particles just bouncing all over.
With Guillen’s slow start, maybe the front office should consider bringing up Carlos Triufnel to play RF.
KJR just said that the Mariners told them Morrow is not in their plans for Monday.
Let’s hope that’s true …
He did, but came back from surgery and guided the Astros to the divison title in 1999. Now that’s determination!
That’s gritty!
yea, KOMO just said that Hargrove is denying the “internet rumors” that Morrow is going to take Felix’s spot in the rotation and that he will announce who later.
Who’s on first.
I’m going to laugh really hard if it ends up being Morrow … then, I’ll cry.
It’s amusing to watch the “normal” media automatically dismiss all internet discussion as being inherently non-credible…
And yet, most of them have a variety of different company-sponsored blogs!
I know I’m late to the party, and it’s probably already been said before: but seriously, what the fuck?!?
Soooo, Hargrove was going to get fired too.
Maybe deep throat is not telling the truth…as Morrow is not going to start…
Move back to Seattle so you can see if their fingers are crossed while they tell you all this inside scoop…
If this wasn’t so pathetic, it’d be worth a laugh.
Someone needs to straighten out Hargrove and let him know he is a rude, thoughtless, little pig
Actually his scotch remark made me chuckle. He seems like a decent guy, just not a great baseball team manager.
Yes. What happened was that we hacked into the M’s official site and put Morrow down as Monday’s starter in order to start an internet firestorm. We’re just that crazy. And powerful.
I suppose Hargrove considers internet rumors to be official postings of probable pitchers on the M’s official website.
Having been a former member of the professional media, their condescending attitude towards those who don’t get paid to cover a team or sport never ceases to crack me up. Check out the way we all got upbraided by Geoff Baker.
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2007/04/morrow_rumors_other_nonsense.html
How could we all have been so stupid as to believe the Mariners might be so assinine as to start Morrow? After all, it did appear on their own Web site and we are talking about the Mariners, the bastion of how to effectively take care of prized prospects’ arms.
I also noticed that Baker says that we’re all dumb for, first, thinking that there was any other pitcher than Mateo that Hargrove could possibly have used in the seventh inning, and, second, for second guessing (of course, most of us were making these observations in real time before the predictable result occurred) Hargrove in April. Not sure what it being April has to do with it, I guess he thinks it is OK to do dumb things early in the season. Maybe the games are worth less in April than they are later in the season?
I saw this other crazy rumor. Apparently Weaver is the probable starter against LAA on Sunday. I am choosing not to believer such nonsense since it appears on that crazy blog known as the M’s official website. After all, who would start Jeff Weaver in a major league game?
Now that was funny.
Re: The 10-day minimum for a mlb send-down
It’s generally true, but there is an exception (that’s been batted around).
For an analogy, when Raul Ibanez was with KC, he was sent down; and he was back up in a couple of days. Another position player had been DL’d. [This is the exception.]
So, if FELIX goes on the DL, that makes it possible for the Ms to recall another pitcher, even someone (Woods) who’s just been sent down.
On the radio pre-game Drayer did admit that the Morrow info was on the M’s website, yet she also said that even though the site is run by the M’s and MLB, the people who write for the site have no connection to the organization and those who wrote the Morrow as probable starter piece were erroneous in writing such info. Her statement about who writes for the M’s website was confusing. Who the hell write for them then? Random people picked up off the street?
I sent Geoff a quick note about that, and he said that no one was saying that it was USSM spreading it - he was responding particularly to all the people on the Times blog.
He also mentioned, though, that he heard there was a blogger on KJR today saying Morrow would be starting on Monday. I don’t know who that would have been.
So…who the hell is going to start on Monday night? Baek? White? Bill Krueger?
I think Churchill was on KJR today.