Game 53, Rangers at Mariners
DMZ · June 3, 2007 at 1:31 pm · Filed Under Game Threads
Ooooookay, so we all got caught napping (or, in my case, making breakfast for my mom) and it’s already 1-1. Sorry.
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332 Responses to “Game 53, Rangers at Mariners”
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hahah yes, I am sure movie stars want their every move documented by the likes of tmz, to have every indiscretion played out across the national media.
Baseball players are different how? If you argue that stars want it, and they are fair game because they are entertainers, and in the public eye, how are sports figures any different? Yet another reason I can’t stand Morgan.
jeter is def. in first ballot
I would argue that baseball players would not enjoy what they do if didn’t play before an audience, or appear on TV, or see their exploits recorded in newspapers. If they went unrecognized everywhere they went, I bet they’d feel pangs of puzzlement and dismay.
I also love that they’ve talked about Alex’s non-baseball controversy for a long while now without mentioning in any way what that non-baseball controversy is.
Either put it out there, or say nothing. If you want a discussion on whether it’s appropriate to talk about these things, you can’t do this tango.
It’s Joe getting old-school and keeping the baseball omerta.
THAT SQUEEZE – (# 123) “I think that pitch would have hit him [Burke]in the chin if he hadn’t gotten the bat in front of it.”
I saw an identical play some years ago. The pitcher knew what was going on, and threw straight for the batter’s head. The batter calmly lifted the bat to his head, and intercepted that pitch before it killed him. Awesome indeed!
(Much more memorable than “Everybody scores.”)
Jeter = 7 time all star (soon to be 8), ’96 Rookie of year, 4 rings, lifetime .317 avg, 254 stolen bases, almost 900 RBI’s in 13 seasons
top 10 shortstop of all time if he stopped playing today, that warrants a first ballot entrance
top 10 SS of all time? Are you kidding?
All Star appearances are nothing more than a popularity contest, BA is a terrible way to judge a batter, 254 stolen bases (works out to 25 a year), 4 rings (part of a team, he didn’t win them alone), 900 RBI (another terrible way to determine a hitter’s worth, RBI is more dependent on the team around you), and ROY? Did you see who he was up against? I’ll run down the list who else got votes that year:
James Baldwin
Tony Clark
Rocky Coppinger
Jose Rosado
Darin Erstad
Tony Batista
Tim Crabtree
Jeff D’Amico
How many MVP’s has the guy won? Zero? How many batting titles (since you want to bring up his BA)? Zero. How many times has he even been top 10 in OPS? Once (5th, in 1999).
The guy is a light hitting SS who’s far below average defensively. You can call him top 10, I’d call you a victim of east coast bias in sports reporting.
Think Manny will make it to 3,000 hits? He’s at 2,124 today, at age 35.
309-
He could, if he can stay interested in baseball long enough…averaging 160 hits over the next 5 years would get him there. The bigger question is will he be up for it.
It’s interesting that Arod and Manny have nearly identical HR and hit totals, but Arod is 4 years younger.
#308: I don’t disagree, but the “Jeter is defensively below average for his career” argument is, I’d say, one that’s been fought and lost. It just doesn’t seem to have gained any widespread traction in the mass baseball consciousness.
The stats don’t lie…his zone rating and fielding percentages are below the league averages, yet he wins gold gloves…turning yet another award (the all star vote the other) into nothing more than a popularity contest. And it will never gain widespread traction, because there will never be a discouraging word written about Jeter. Arod gets the abuse for not the yanks not winning a world series, but Jeter’s been there for the entire drought, yet he never gets mentioned.
I think it ties back to what was being discussed earlier, about what teams and what games get national recognition…with the flooding of sox and yanks on ESPN and FOX regularly, of course those are the names that come up for these types of awards. Deserved or not, he’s winning gold gloves.
whether or not average and RBI are good ways to determine a hitter’s worth is really irrelevant when the hall of fame is concerned.
These are numbers that are looked at, whether it is right or not, that’s the way it is
“How many batting titles (since you want to bring up his BA)? Zero”
he’s come very close to winning it twice
Finished at .349 in ’99 (only nomar’s .357 was better)
and last year at .344 (only mauer’s .347 was better)
I like how Coco almost ran over Wily Mo, who almost ran over Varitek getting to home plate on that Pedroia rip.
Which team would Jesus root for?
316
He liked to feed the hungry, visit those in prison and comfort the downtrodden and heal the sick.
Clearly the Devil Rays, Royals or Pirates.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that’s why Alex Rodriguez is the greatest player in baseball.
Ortiz, Ramirez, Youkilis. You’re Mariano Riviera (at the end of your HOF career). Are you scared? I hate the Red Sox/Yankees as much as anyone but man … this is a tasty treat about to be served.
Now, having spent my day pounding my head against the wall because the downstairs computer refuses, outright, to connect to the wireless network….
Jeter right now would be a marginal HoFer if he quit this evening and played his entire career for the Royals. However, he plays for the Yankees, which is the equivalent of a marginal candidate for sainthood being from metro Rome. However, Jeter’s close on the Gray Ink test and got screwed out of the MVP last year.
Jesus would be a closer, because Jesus saves. [rimshot]
Three best football-related books of all time:
Courting of Marcus Dupree
Friday Night Lights
Paper Lion
And yet, all of them pale in comparison to Summer of ’49 or Lords of the Realm or about three dozen other great baseball books.
Just not Nine Innings. Total snooze.
313-
heh you’re funny…one of the 10 all time best shortstops, yet you have no basis for your deduction, other than some random stats that don’t mean anything.
318-
Of course he’s the best, but the Arod haters will hate him no matter what he does, and always pick some irrelevant, off-topic reason as to why they hate him.
Who do you put ahead of him, then? Off the top of my head, I can only count a few sure things:
Honus Wagner, Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken Jr.
Even Ernie Banks doesn’t seem like a sure thing.
I mean really, ignoring the defense/All-Star question, Jeter’s Top-10 in average eight times, OBP six times, in thirteen seasons. That’s pretty awesome.
Vaughn, maybe?
However, Jeter’s close on the Gray Ink test and got screwed out of the MVP last year.
I wouldn’t necessarily say he got screwed out of the MVP last year. He had a strong case, but I thought it was pretty close between Mauer and Jeter, and personally would’ve leaned towards Mauer since he’s the stronger defensive player and I’m a sucker for defense.
I’d say Robin Yount, if Yount hadn’t shifted to center in mid-career. And maybe I’d still say Yount. I’d also take Alan Trammell and maybe even Tony Fernandez. Omar Vizquel has an argument, I think, though I’d put him just behind Jeter.
#323: Justin Morneau won the MVP.
Jose Lopez’s numbers to date:
2004: .232/.263/.367
2005: .247/.282/.379
2006: .282/.319/.405
2007: .291/.324/.440
#323: Justin Morneau won the MVP.
I know that. If we’re talking about who deserved the MVP, though, what matters is who deserved it, not who got it. Jeter didn’t get robbed if there was a more deserving player.
Okay you what a top ten SS list I got one for you:
1)Ozzie “Wizard of Oz” Smith (St Louis Cards)
2)Omar Vizqel (SF Giants)
3)Cal Ripken Jr.
4)Derek Jeter (NYYs)
5)Robin Yount (Brewers)
6)Honus Wagner
7)Ernie Banks (mid ’50s to 60’s Chicago Cubs)
8)Miguel Tejada (Baltimore O’)
9)Mike Young (Texas Rangers)
10)Harrellson (1969 NY Mets)
Now there a list agriue about 5,9,and 10 if you like but rest are locks for their eras.
The guy is a light hitting SS who’s far below average defensively. You can call him top 10, I’d call you a victim of east coast bias in sports reporting.
That’s just silly.
Derek Jeter: .317/.389/.463
Player X, Hall of Famer: .306/.369/.448
Even doing the requisite adjustments for era (since Player X’s peak was in the lower-scoring 1980’s), Jeter STILL wins OPS+ 123-122, and wins the more important category in OPS+, OBP, by .052 over his leagues, .389 to .337 (compared to .037 for Player X, .369 to .332).
This is who Player X is, by the way.
As for that list: seriously, Bud Harrelson? You have to REALLY love his defense. Harrelson’s in the Mark Belanger class of complete glove men as far as I am concerned, and I’d probably pick guys like Dave Concepcion and Bert Campaneris over them, as far as guys of his era.
Harrelson’s like a deluxe version of Spike Owen or Julio Cruz for me, who got love because he played in New York- sort of a Phil Rizzuto style player without quite as good a set of skills. Top 100? Maybe. Top 10? No freakin’ way- over Luis Aparicio? Arky Vaughn? Pee Wee Reese?
Oh, and Player X? Never won a batting title, either, finished second a couple of times (just like Jeter).
I think the idea that a guy with 2200+ hits at age 33 (and is basically 4-5 years away from 3000 hits) is a “light hitting SS” is hysterical. To give you an idea of some guys Jeter is going to pass if he stays healthy:
Jeter: 2223
Larkin: 2340
Trammell: 2365
I don’t think anyone would consider Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell “light hitting”.
I’d say Robin Yount, if Yount hadn’t shifted to center in mid-career. And maybe I’d still say Yount. I’d also take Alan Trammell and maybe even Tony Fernandez. Omar Vizquel has an argument, I think, though I’d put him just behind Jeter.
You’re giving up a HUGE amount of offense for Fernandez- you’re trading a player who’s maybe a bit better than league average for a guy who’s a better hitter than Paul Molitor. Unless Fernandez is saving 20-30 runs a year with his glove (and that’s a HUGE defensive difference), I can’t do that.
I think Yount you have a better case for, because he was brought up SO early that his 18-21 years hurt his career hitting stats for things like OPS+ significantly (years where Jeter was in the minors). Young was moved to CF to keep him healthy, not as a “OMG his defense blows”, and his peak, when you adjust for league, was better- it’s not like Yount blows the doors off Jeter, but I’d pick Yount circa 1982-1983 over Jeter’s 1999-2000 stretch.
As for Trammell, the thing is he was almost done by Jeter’s age (33). He played 101 games at age 33 (and had a very bad year), and 112 at age 35 (and had a pretty good year- but Travis Fryman played more games at short than he did). His other years were various shades of bad and injured.
Jeter doesn’t look close to done at ALL.