-
Vote for Dave
Act now! Your vote helps Dave on his quest for a economics degree. You support education, right? Click this:
-
Buy the book
The Cheater's Guide to Baseball
"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
Change in Managers
What an interesting ride that was. Two and a half years ago, the Mariners hired Mike Hargrove to take over as the field manager for a team that was trying to find an identity. At the end of the 2005 season, the Mariners created an “administrative coach” position for former Tacoma manager Dan Rohn, who had done nothing but win in Triple-A but was tired of managing in the Pacific Coast League, in order to keep him from leaving the organization. Midway into his second losing season, en route to another last place finish, reports began to surface of friction between the manager and front office, as well as Hargrove and some players. Towards the end of last year, Rohn was fired for insubordination - essentially, he was undermining Hargrove to some of the players on the team - and, at the same time, bench coach Ron Hassey, a close personal friend of Hargrove’s, was also fired. Then, Hargrove was unexpectedly retained as manager for the 2007 season, despite an almost universal belief that they were going to let him go.
Now, halfway into the Mariners most successful season in years, fresh off a seven game winning streak over quality teams such as Boston and Toronto, Mike Hargrove has decided to walk away on his own.
If any of that makes sense to you, raise your hand. We don’t know why Hargrove made this decision, and I’m going to avoid speculation on his reasons, beyond his “accumulation of 35 years” answer that he gave the press today.
So, Mike Hargrove is out, and John McLaren is the manager for at least the rest of the season. What does this mean to the team?
Well, for the most part, I think managers just don’t make as much of a difference as most people believe. There are a few exceptionally good and bad ones, but in general, good teams win in spite of bad managers and bad teams lose in spite of good managers. We’ve laid out our issues with some of Hargrove’s beliefs, and a couple of days ago, we actually complimented how he’s handled the bullpen. So he has done some good things and some bad things.
But, I’m not particularly worried about how the team is going to do under John McLaren. The talent on the field isn’t changing, and this team isn’t 11 games over .500 because of Mike Hargrove. John McLaren is his own guy, and things will probably change in some ways, but in the end, the team is still the team.
In the end, I’m interested to see how McLaren manages and am optimistic that there’s a chance that some of the things the team has done that drive me nuts might end. But, really, this isn’t likely to be a huge deal either way. Managers just don’t really matter all that much.
Comments
-
USSM uses and recommends
I’m just really happy McLaren is getting the job. I always thought he should have been the Ron Gardenhire to Lou’s Tom Kelly. Now he’s finally getting the chance, albeit four+ seasons too late.
Agreed Dave. Out of the big three American sports (baseball, basketball, football), the coach of a baseball team matters the least IMO.
Dang. I already miss him.
ESPN Baseball tonight graphic…since May 22nd Mariners have best record in baseball. Something I hadn’t realized, I guess.
So, last year the NL Manager of the Year gets fired/quits (girardi). despite the negativism toward Hargrove, based on record/change alone, you have to think Hargrove was at least in the conversation for Manager of the year…and he walks away.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Girardi replaces Hargrove?
I just hope, for Hargrove’s sake, there isn’t anything unfortunate behind the scenes making him do this. His wife seemed pretty cheery about things, and they probably deserve a chance to go have some fun.
General huzzah! for watchable M’s baseball, regardless of manager.
Since the manager isn’t that big of an effect on the performance in general, can we elsewise expect this run of good luck/good performance to continue? Our run differential doesn’t logically translate to the success we’re having.
M’s have been extremely fortunate over the last month. Don’t blame McLaren if/when this team starts to suck and returns to .500…
Well, Lurch didn’t tell us anything.
The radio broadcast of the game, following Hargrove’s announcement, was a classic case of announcers caught in breaking news without a script. I was stuck in an accident-related traffic backup on I-90 out toward Cle Elum when I turned on the game to hear this news. Blowers and Niehaus were virtually speechless about the situation for 6 innings, repeatedly mumbling stuff like:
“Well, there’s no question he did it for all the right reasons.”
“Oh, no question about that, Mike. And the timing was right, too.”
[silence]
“Although I can’t name a manager in the history of baseball who quit while they were winning like this.”
“No question about that either Mike.”
[silence]
“But, clearly he did it for all the right reasons.”
“No question about that, Dave, no question at all.”
That went on until the 6th inning when Niehaus finally made an oblique reference to the 900 pound gorilla in the room.
“You know, I think Jose Lopez had the best comment on this. And he said, to the effect, ‘We don’t know the whole story on this yet.’ ”
“Oh, no question about that, Dave, no question at all.”
[silence]
“No question about _____” is used just as often as “My oh my!”.
That is FFFFFFing hilarious! Is it a crime to find a color man with charisma that knows the sport? There has to be someone in between Dennis Miller and Mike Blowers on the spectrum for a job like that.
I think Dave has nailed it….now watch and see how the media deals with it. Miller at the PI did not hesitate to call Hargrove a quitter. Geoff Baker has a similar take to many of the posters like myself who believe there is more to it….
i personally think Blowers and Sims are GREAT, they are so refreshing.
Does changing managers effect the chances of Jones being promoted?
Squabbles with the front office (see Adam Jones, Snelling, et al), tension with your star player (see Ichiro), you may want to get out while the going is good.
I wonder if the front office was reluctant to commit to a long-term deal with Hargrove (now that the manager finally has instilled his system of winning) and Hargrove was offended he couldn’t cash in on the team’s current success. I mean, the Mariners play by most all the baseball “rules” but may have wanted to delay the future commitment to Hargrove until after the end of the season and Hargrove wouln’t work under that kind of uncertainty. It’s common in sports these days but not as much with managers/coaches.
#13. Boo to Rob Neyer, too: “Maybe this particular Mariner knows when it’s time to jump ship.”
He didn’t mean what you said, though, gwangung, he meant quitting while he (the team) was ahead, not last place in the division.
My own take, after listening to several interviews from Hargrove and his wife: someone is a depressed person, despite the happy face they’re putting on for the public. And that can sap the energy and the ability to give 100% to the task at hand.
If that’s the case, and the situation is treated, yeah, Grover will get his enthusiasm back, and yeah, we might see him surface somewhere else. Maybe not as a field manager, but he could serve as a coach just about anywhere.
“He” in that second paragraph = Neyer, not Hargrove.
Could be, Karen, could be…
Just getting out of the situation that’s stressing you is a healthy response. If that’s the case, can’t blame him at all…
Agree on Sims and Blowers. I actually enjoy them.
I think it is a bunch of crap! Hargrove quit on his players. I am not a Hargrove fan at all but I think they would be better off not having this kind of change at this point in the season. Hargrove said he doubts he will ever manage again? I doubt he will get an opportunity to manage again after this….
Blowers is AWESOME! Simms is AWFUL!
I’ve never been or ever will be a big fan of Mike Hargrove and in fact I have been a very loud critic of the man.I also advocated his firing for quite some time now along with Bill Bonehead Bavasi as GM.
Having said that I’m however a fair man and despite of my disagree with the man.I give Hargrove kudos for the turnaround happening now wheither by luck,in spite of,because of,etc……..
you can’t argue with the present success and position the M’s are in.
Second place in the AL West with a record of 45-33(12 games over .500)4 games back of the Angels,at last count 1 game back in the AL wild card.
A 10-2 homestand with the present 7 game winning streak with sweeps of both Boston AND Toronto.
So I tend to accept Hargrove’s reasons for his resignation at this point until some other reason is discovered that makes more sense or is more logical.
My congradulations goes out to the FO of whom I’m a major critic and very anti-Bavasi in their wise decision on retaining McClaren as full manager not as interim.
He knows the players and they know him or of him.
He has the best shot of continuing the present success overall the M’s have been enjoying.
He’s learned from the some of best managers Gaston,Piniella,and to a point Hargrove.
He has 11 yrs vested in Seattle and will do his best maintain this success and above all the WINNING.
Finally Congradulations on Ichiro’s 7th straight OF start in the All Star game and to JJ Putz for his selection to bullpen staff.
P.S. To the M’s FO sign Ichiro to a extension contract deal NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Hey … to all of you who live in Kitsap County:
We’re putting together a story of local reaction to Hargrove’s announcement for the KItsap Sun. (I’m the night news editor there.) If any of you live in Kitsap, and would be willing to answer a few questions and be quoted for the record, please contact me ASAP at jthomsen@kitsapsun.com.
Here’s what we’d like to know:
— What was your immediate visceral reaction to the news?
— Put yourself in Hargrove’s shoes … What do you think drove this decision for him?
— What do you think of this as far as its historical precedent? I mean, who walks away from the HOTTEST team in baseball?
— What was your honest opinion of Hargrove as a manager? Does his departure hurt or help the team? Or is it a non-factor?
Also, a little context — where do you live in Kitsap, how many games do you go to a year, do you hold season tickets, etc.
Thanks! (And Dave, normally I’d clear this with you first, but you said you’d be away and time is of the essence here. So I hope I can impose on our friendship here a little and use this forum for my paper’s purposes. Thanks. )
“What was your honest opinion of Hargrove as a manager”
He didn’t play Bloomquist enough!
Oops, jthomsen@kitsapsun.com
No period at the end.
And #26: I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if somebody said that completely without irony.
#23, Blowers’ job is EASY, Sims’ job is harder and Sims does his job a lot better than Blowers does his own. At least you don’t have to listen to Rizzs and Valle all those innings. The broadcasts are so much better this year than they’ve been in years.
On Hargrove, I’m just happy we didn’t have to endure another long losing streak just to get the guy out of the way.
#22, it’s not like Hargrove is a platoon leader in Iraq. Sure he “quit” but those players will be fine and they just might have secretly wished McClaren was their manager anyway.
#28: agree on Sims. Since we can’t have Niehaus on TV for the full game, Sims is a step up from Rizzs (whose voice bugs me, and he always acts fake happy).
“”#22, it’s not like Hargrove is a platoon leader in Iraq. Sure he “quit” but those players will be fine and they just might have secretly wished McClaren was their manager anyway.”"
Of course he is not a platoon leader in Iraq. This is a baseball discussion not one about the war. He is the leader of this team and he quit in the middle of the season. You can’t say “those players might have secretly wished McClaren was the manager anyway”. Are you in the clubhouse? Have you talked to the players? My guess is no. I am guessing the players would prefer not have any changes in the team when things are going so well.
It must have been really hard for him to be a manager, ya know, working 5 or 6 hours a day for 8 months of the year. It is amazing how anyone could deal with the stress of putting together a linup card and making a call to the bullpen a couple of times a game. Maybe he needs to rehab a Vicodin addiction or something?
I was pretty disgusted (but not at all suprised) with the arse kissing they announcers were giving him. I didn’t hear a negative word about him the entire time I was listening. Imagine what the press would be saying in Boston/NY/Philly/Chicago.
Rizzs is absolutely horrible. Just one time in his life I want to hear him say something critical of someone, anyone!!! I lost all respect for him when he refused to say the name of “The Best Damn Sports Show”.
This is an absolutely clueless blathering.
Yes, it IS hard being a highly visible personage, with people knowing you on sight, holding you in public disdain, with rather tenuous job security, and with your every move dissected and discussed not only in the traditional media but in the blogs and web.
This is an absolutely disrepestful posting totally unworthy of the good ship USS Mariner, and I’m ashamed to find it here. Horrible, horrible posting.
Grover, thanks for the good job this year. When the history of this season, and, hopefully, a new winning era for the next several years, is written, you will figure more than just a mere footnote in the recitation. Now, on to winning big in the second half of this seaon under McLaren.
managers as a whole may not mean much, but this particular manager might have had impacts on Ichiro and Adam Jones.
Im wondering if Hargrove decision, whether directly or indirectly, is influenced at all by the reported interest in the team being for sale.
[this is not a board]
Geez, I go hiking in the Olympics for five days, and come back to the Ms continuing a big win streak and Hargrove quitting. Strange days indeed. I wish Hargrove well but I do think this will make it easier to resign Ichiro!
Personally, I think managers do have a big impact on a team. Having played and coached baseball, there are a ton of decisions and strategic manuvers that occur in each game. Starting lineup? Signal for a steal? Bunt the runners over or let the guy rip? Pull the pitcher or give him a few more batters? Call a pitchout? Which reliever should I use? How should the outfield and infield be aligned for this batter? What do I need to say to this player in order for him to focus or come through for us today? How do I keep the team up and focused?
Now imagine that you are daydreaming about driving your red retirement truck through the hills and you are not paying attention to the game. Even if your bench coaches are picking up the slack for you, you are hurting the team.
I also have a feeling McLaren might have been a target for the Reds who just fired their manager…
Just my two cents.
I think the one thing we know is that we don’t know much.
The radio post-game on ESPN seems to be going with either a) “more than we’re being told” or b) “suck it up! so you’re miserable and have no passion and feel you’d be a detriment to the team?! Suck it up!!!!”.
ESPN plans to talk to ‘a Seattle beat writer’ later. Apparently they haven’t actually lined one up yet …
Grover, thanks for your work and good luck in future endevours!
#35– has anyone other than the Boston Globe claimed the team was for sale?
I can’t wait to see what The Dugout does with this.
#32-Not to mention you may “work” 6 hours a day (and, if you’re with the M’s this season, get an off day every two or three weeks), but that isn’t much consolation when you’re stuck on a plane every few days, away from home for a couple weeks at a time, and living out of a suitcase.
Not that it wouldn’t be a good job for someone who loves baseball, but I can see it wearing thin when you’re nearing 60, especially if there’s something else going on in his life that you’re worried about. Maybe he is bailing, but
Doh, cut it off.
…but I can see how the job could start to tire you out more than a standard 9 to 5, come home to your wife, spend the weekends doing yardwork occupation.
… and maybe you realize your youngest has just finished high school and you missed pretty much her entire high school life, that your son is playing pro ball in California and that you have seen him play a grand total of 4 times …
oh, and ESPN wound up with Ted Miller, noted Mariner expert on-air …
Living out of a suitcase is a PITA, and anybody who thinks it is fun can go try it. Make sure you do it from March to September, and only take a few consecutive days off in the summer for maximum enjoyment. Sometimes, if you are lucky, you’ll even get a weekend day off - for travel!
Drayer has posted an appreciation of Hargrove the person, and Baker has updated his blog now that he has landed in Detroit.
Hargrove has done a great job with keeping the team looking like a team. There is no dugout fights ala Zambrano vs. Barrett and the way they handled the whole Proctor beaning/Johjima being taken out scenario in NY showed that he knew how to handle it with the right amount of reaction. Besides the Mateo personal issue (which is out of Hargrove’s control) the team has acted very professionally even with “trouble maker” players like Guillen and Everett. I see that as a direct reflection on Hargrove.
Some of Hargrove’s comments in the press conference sounded very angry. The tone and look were there on some specific comments and he sounded very impatient with the reporters’ questions. This sounds like a guy who is tired of criticism and second guessing.
50: That sounds a lot more like how you think you would feel if you were Hargrove, inasmuch as it has nothing to do with what Hargrove said, or, frankly, how pretty much anyone else is reading Hargrove’s tone and affect.
22 et f. cetera: Anyone who thinks it is worse to quit than to continue doing a job you know you can’t do well anymore has severe empathy problems, in my goddamned opinion. The Mariners are adults, they are professionals, and they can handle the retirement of their boss, no doubt a lot better than fans who can’t think of anything beyond what the Mariners represent for them, and to hell with human beings with human lives.
46 - Really? He’s been home for much of the school year most of his career. It’s not like he’s been lost in Gitmo for 20 years or something (although Baltimore comes close).
The real reason is either:
1) Serious illness to close family member, undisclosed as yet
2) Eased out because of Ichiro issues
3) Finally realized that, even when he’s successful in Seattle, the fans are ambivalent at best towards him, still downright hostile at worst.
4) “Brain Delay” finally diagnosed as a clinical disease with no cure in sight (I guess this is a subset of 1)
Hargrove is leaving?! What a shock. Even more bizarre, Jeff Weaver pitches 8 innings of 1-run ball today.
I’m sure that the speculation machine about Why Hargrove Left will now start up. Certain reporters are already raising the idea that Ichiro might have been the cause. What a team cancer he is!
From Jim Caple on ESPN:
“Was Hargrove pushed out because of a rocky relationship with Ichiro and the Mariners feeling that re-signing their All-Star required a managerial change? Perhaps, but why wouldn’t they have made such a move last August when the team lost 11 in a row instead of now when they’ve won eight in a row?”
I blame the liberal media agenda.
WHY COULDN’T IT HAVE BEEN BAVASI!!! I can’t wait for the celebration when Bavasi is gone. I will miss Hargrove, but not too much. I honestly am non-plussed about Hargrove leaving. If it was about personal issues, I will feel sorry for him, but as long as we don’t hire Dusty Baker (ruin our pitchers) I don’t think it will hurt us too much. If it means Ichiro is resigning, then bring it on.
After much consideration and a couple of hours at the ballpark, I have come to the conclusion that Hargrove didn’t like his job, and he’s not going to go anymore.
I’m very late to this thread, but as a practicing psychologist just wanted to echo what Karen said above. I have felt for a while that Hargrove seems pretty depressed. He appeared that way today. That would certainly explain his increasing difficulty getting up for what is, contrary to what someone said, a very difficult and demanding job. The grind may have gotten to be too much, and his wife may have been in good spirits because she feels that he is finally doing something to make his life (and by extension, hers) better.
The obvious disclaimer is that no amount of professional training can allow someone to make a diagnosis based on TV interviews and hunches. But I wouldn’t be at all surprised if depression was one of the roots of this resignation.
On a personal level, I wish you the best retirement a man can have. I know I’ll never have what you will have in retirement.
On the other hand…root has been removed. Hargrove was the root. He is no longer. Per ichiro:
“If there is a problem, we need to notice what creates the problem. The problem usually isn’t just on the cover. You need to look much deeper. For example, if we’re talking about a tree and the tree has a problem, you need to look at the root. But you cannot see the root. The mistake is to keep watering the fruit. That’s not going to solve anything.”
Why do I get the feeling that in Ichiro’s old age he is going to look just like the sensei from Kill Bill 2?
58. Yes. You’re exactly right. You were there in the room when Ichiro said that and so you are fully aware of the context, to the point that you can perfectly suss Ichiro’s meaning.
I think you speak with envy because you’ll never have what Hargrove will have in retirement.
I’m also late to the thread (because I was stuck in the John Wayne Airport for six hours) but I third the “depression” possibility. It was my first thought when I heard those quotes. That’s what people say when they’re clinically depressed. Having dealt with it firsthand, I’m glad he’s taking the steps he needs to deal with it, if that is indeed the case. And I’m very interested to see McLaren.
Dave,
(if you happen to see this)
Besides how you feel about managers not mattering that much: in an ideal world how do you feel about McLaren vs. Rohn? (I am happy to get either one - I think both have their merits and I love seeing guys like that finally get a shot).
Secondly, do you see any potential changes in the personnel decisions by Bavasi? The prevailing theory here and elsewhere seems to be that Hargrove blocked any Jones/Balentien call-ups because of his aversion to playing rookies (attachment to sucky vets like Vidro, Everett, etc.). Do you expect McLaren to change the equation and how soon?
And how might this effect the M’s becoming ‘buyers’?
Thanks for your insightfulness, as always.
With the usual caveat that nobody knows what Ichiro is thinking except Ichiro, it’s hard for me to believe that the Mariners’ chances for re-signing him will be enhanced if the perception that Hargrove left because of a power struggle with him gets some legs in the mainstream media.
How about the journalists out there actually say “I don’t know” when they don’t have any information, rather than just speculating?
59: It would be totally sweet. He’d do that stroke of his long, white beard after every hit.
Well, as long as John doesn’t turn out to be the Joe Kerrigan to Grover’s Jimy Williams, I think this is going to be good for the M’s.
Regardless, good luck Grover in whatever you do, and thanks for at least playing a minor role in getting this team back where it needs to be.
I suspect McLaren has been ‘managing’ for a while now. Hargrove didn’t suddenly become depressed. It happens over a period of time.
I feel sorry for Mike. For all our criticism, and I’ve ripped him as much as anyone, he’s had some pretty crappy rosters to deal with - Meche and Pineiro as starters; the fifteen catchers in 2005; the collapse of Boone; this year’s rotation of Batista, Ramirez, and Weaver; and so on.
Did he have his faults? Hell yes. Go find me a manager who doesn’t, and isn’t named Earl Weaver.
Inscrutable Ichiro quote of the day:
“He will be missed,” he said of Hargrove. “But I’m not sure in what fashion.”
McLaren’s going to bring more Bloomie says Bill Kruger on KJR!?
Krueger said it in the context of getting the veterans days-off, rather than running them into the ground until they get hurt.
I’m wondering if those multiple trips to Cleveland for games and his daughter’s graduation did him in…he’s seen Cleveland more this year than ever before so it might have been dragging him back to stay at home more.
it is fascinating how many people want to put it onto something outside of Hargrove.
It has to be Ichiro (even though by all reports they have been fine this year, and it would be contrary to his personality & heritage to undermine the manager), it has to they’re paying him off to get MacLaren in as manager, it has to be that he knws they won’t make deadline deals, it has to be management not giving him security (Baker is sticking by his ‘Hargrove already got his extension’ story, by the way), or power/influence (um, hasn’t Mike gotten all the players he’s asked for?) just like they did to Lou when he left …
As has already been stated, I don’t think that the other shoe has fallen yet. Until it does, we’re all left fumbling around in the dark, since there are really no good baseball reasons for Grover’s abrupt departure.
In explaining yesterday’s events to my wife (NOT someone who’s knee-deep in game arcana!), her immediate response was, “I hope that he or his wife aren’t sick.”
Intuition’s a hard thing to wrap one’s arms around, especially if one is inclined only towards empirical explanations. But sometimes, gut feelings turn out to be right.
I just hope this isn’t one of those times.
SB
Heritage?
What is lacking from japanese heritage is the open air pissing and moaning that most american/latin players do in the press and in the locker room.
If you are japanese and do not like the manager you play hard for him everyday and then just leave the team when your contract is up.
I think we can all agree that would be bad… Worse than this.
My thanks to USS Mariner readers (and Kitsap Mariner fans) Nathan Bishop, Eric Newcomer, Laurie Jones and Mark Biggs, who all responded to my call for comment on Hargrove’s resignation in the Kitsap Sun.
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2007/jul/01/shock-and-confusion-kitsap-reacts-to-mike/
oooh, the best theory yet.
Hargrove is leaving because a menopausal Sharon doesn’t want an empty nest
The broadcasts are so much better this year than they’ve been in years.
I agree, but do we really need to get the traffic reports shoehorned into the games???
Seems they can say, each break in the action will be lead off with a traffic update. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!
ah, Fain … there has to be something unhealthy with the Mariners FO if both Lou and Hargrove leave and Melvin gets canned after an extension.
Apparently Dick has never actually watched any other franchise.
I think #75 may be onto something. Does it strike anyone else as odd that Grover’s wife is so publicly involved in this? And didn’t he seem less relieved than you’d expect someone to be if he’d just had the weight of the world taken from his shoulders? Do you suppose Grover’s been a naughty boy and Sharon gave him some sort of ultimatum? Pure speculation on my part and probably wrong, but it makes about as much sense as anything else……
#75 You should know better than that, msb. There’s nothing worse than a “retired” husband of a menopausal woman.
They get in the way, they argue with you all the time but think they’re “communicating”, they want your attention like a 4 year old kid, they follow you around and ask what you’re doing (and if you’re really lucky and they’re “handy”, they’ll ask if they can help — unless it’s doing the dishes or vacuuming).
I hope Mike Hargrove is easy to get along with at his leisure, because if he isn’t, Sharon is going to get him “treated” (if the few of us who’ve speculated on that issue are right) and push him out the door to find another job.
And #78. No, I don’t find it odd that Sharon was so visible yesterday. It was touching to see how supportive she was, as I imagine she’s been every day of that 35 years they referred to.
In fact, I think it’s a lot MORE odd that we have some of the attention-grabbers like ARod’s wife, who was photographed yesterday wearing a t-shirt with a prohibited-in-Yankee-Stadium message that most people would have been escorted out of the ballpark for wearing.
#79– oh, that wasn’t me, that was a [male] caller to the radio.
and (#78) why would it be odd to talk to the woman he has been with for about 45 of his 58 years?