Jones/Triple-A All-Star Game
Dave · July 11, 2007 at 2:35 pm · Filed Under Mariners
The News Tribune shoots down the Adam Jones promotion rumor, but confirms that he’ll be up “soon”, whatever that means. We’ll have to hold the celebration on that front for a little while longer.
Also, the Triple-A All-Star game kicks off at 4:30 pm pacific and can be seen on ESPN2. Adam Jones will be taking part in the ASG, so if you need your AJ fix, here’s your chance.
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I don’t see how Jones playing in the AAA ASG has any effect on his call up to Seattle on Thursday.
It’s not he was a Pitcher and to be withheld from playing prior to his call up.
He’s an OFer and besides just because they call him up doesn’t mean he’s active til there’s room made for him on the roster.
Just another reminder that the M’s FO isn’t the best of the bunch (and that’s being nice).
Not sure what they are waiting for…
1 – Risk of injury, perhaps? Same reason why players who are about to be traded are almost always pulled from the lineup.
1, 3: More likely travel/rest time. Do you want to play in a game, get on a plane, fly all night, and then start in the big leagues the next day?
Prospect Insider mentions massive indecisiveness and dithering on the part of the Ms front office,changing their minds 50 times a day.
Gharrrr. Drives me crazy. That’s bad baseball AND bad business. Pretty indicative of the dysfunctionality of the Ms top brass…
The FO might be considering the roster move that needs to accompany and AJ promotion. They probably want to avoid DFAing Ellison right after he pushed around the fatty in defense of their new $100 million man. They also might need time to communicate such a decision to the player(s) who would be most affected by such a promotion. At least one player will not be pleased, but the M’s would want to make sure that they do everything they can to reduce the level of resentment and frustration.
Jose Vidro has pictures of the Mariners front office having sex with a monkey. That’s the only explanation.
Im pretty sure the team probably had no chance to discuss AJ coming up with Ibanez and Vidro…then it leaked and that was likely the way Ibanez and Vidro heard that their PT was going down. So maybe this is just a chance for management to give Ibanez and Vidro some time to deal with the upcoming time they are going to either be at DH or on the pine. IMO
Why are we taking Prospect Insider as the Bible? Why would you panic because they say the FO is flip-flopping back and forth?
It’s not as easy as just calling AJ up. Especially if they really plan to make all the changes Prospect Insider mentioned. That’s 3 regular players that will be changed and one (Ellison) that would be DFA’d. I would hope the FO really thinks hard about it and talks to the affected players first instead of having them hear it in news reports.
I’d love to see Jones up to, but don’t forget the team is playing well and the chemistry is great. How will the chemistry be affected with such major moves?
I’m not saying don’t make the move, but there are a lot of considerations that need to be made other than just saying “Jones is better than Vidro, so bring him up.”
9-Imagine slightly less chemistry cause there is a new guy but better offense and better defense..I’ll take it!
I don’t care about any of those considerations.
I don’t care about “chemistry”, which is not quantifiable and is thus nearly always overrated.
I care about the FO making moves that will make the 2007 Mariners a better ballclub.
Hopefully, it is just a matter of time.
Or they want to avoid bringing up AJ against arguably the best rotation in baseball and the best team in the AL in a lot of people’s minds.
Why are we taking Prospect Insider as the Bible? Why would you panic because they say the FO is flip-flopping back and forth?
Have you seen the FO’s track record??
There’s no difficulty in making the moves suggested. You purchase AJ’s contract from Tacoma (something done on a daily basis by MLB teams), you tell Raul he’s going to DH, and you tell Vidro he is now a bench player. Then you tell a RP (probably Rowland-Smith) that he’s going to Tacoma.
Any team could do that in a matter of minutes. It’s not a big deal.
I just dread the idea of Vidro having a hot streak that pushes his average back over .300.
and he can go there for now… im not certain that’ll kill us
Make the move already!
How many more DP’s are we going to watch Vidro hit into this week? How many misjudged fly balls and bad routes will we be forced to watch from Ibanez?
Free AJ from Tacoma!
…what about the hot streaks Bruiser may never have
Look on the bright side, the Mariners have acknowledged that Jones is coming which probably means Vidro will be going eventually.
#11: Chemistry is part of the reason why the Boston Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 whereas previous Red Sox teams (some of them being playoff teams) had the montra of “25 guys, 25 cabs”. Just remember that the next time you dive into heavy statistical analysis.
One thing though that does win you championships is common sense. Jose Vidro isn’t doing squat for this team right now with the exception of his moving up runners with groundball outs whereas Adam Jones might be capable of doing more for this team right now in 2007. So because of that, while it may not be a popular decision for some guys in the short term, bringing up a good kid like Adam Jones and promoting him to the starting lineup will probably be a great decision in the long term.
It’s nice to have 100% veteran continuity in that clubhouse, but the fact is, baseball is a business so players will come and go. And last I checked, even some of the contributors to this team now such as Putz, Betancourt, Lopez, and Sherrill to name a few needed a fair shot when they were just rookies.
Now it’s just simply time to give Adam Jones, aka: the future of the Mariners, his shot.
Oh, and it’s also the pretty good chemistry and attitude in the clubhouse that has Ichiro about to sign an extension for 5 more years.
Nonsense. The Red Sox were nearly swept before they even got to the series, and they were a lousy break from winning it all in ‘86.
Chemistry matters. But you can’t predict it, you can’t analyze it, you can’t account for it; it’s meaningless in rational sports analysis. Leave it to the sportswriters; that kind of “insider” talk is all most of them have left, anyway.
yes please
There are FEW successful businesses that are indecisve. And I don’t know of any sports franchises that waffle about making moderate to important decisions.
On the other hand, the trail is littered with dead businesses that were flip-floppers and wafflers.
It seems more like they’re afraid of making a mistake than making a good decision—and that kind of attitude will cost you big in both busines and sports.
we shouldn’t be certain, just give the Dad’s there Guillen, and snatch a prospect. maybe three teams Could bring us Willis for Baek… any more is Geoff Baker dumb.
If I recall correctly, the 2004 Red Sox were actually a pretty talent-laden ballclub. That probably accounted for something.
22gwangung
dont forget about politicions. Flipping and Flopping cant hurt as bad as a blind fold
honcho, keep your bo sox fans away, and please visit there blog.
AAA ASG info
oh, and I am channeling Cole Porter.
Chemistry follows performance. This years M’s have much better chemistry because they’re winning. People look at winning teams and see how they get along and decide the “getting along” predated the winning, when in fact it’s the other way round.
Challenge: Show me a team that finished with less than 70 wins that had great chemistry.
I have no idea what this means.
Ah, a classics lover…
Yikes – this thread is becoming un-readable.
23 – wtf? I’m lost at what your trying to get at. Are you saying Baek is the worst pitcher the M’s have and the only one that should be considered for Willis?
29 – msb, I think flakeyjakey’s been at the catnip.
26 – ???????
I’d be shocked if flakeyjakey is a day older than 13…
#24: I never said chemistry was the only reason why the won the World Series, obviously you need to have a ton of talent to win the whole thing. But I’m just saying, the Red Sox had a lot of talented teams in the past, including playoff teams. And yet, they never even could get close to the World Series.
Whether chemistry could’ve helped them in a season like let’s say ‘99 when they swept Cleveland and came into the New York series on a high is debateable. But maybe it could’ve helped them make that ALCS a little more of a Series instead of having the Red Sox go down quietly in 5 games.
Because believe or not, the Red Sox team as it was from April to September that year had beaten the Yankees 7 times out of 11 including a 3 game sweep in September IN NEW YORK!! So they weren’t necessarily overmatched, they could play with New York. But New York had the chemistry and confidence in themselves that they would be successful when October rolled around which is what really seperated themselves from the rest of the bunch in the late ’90’s. It wasn’t just the talent that was put on the field, it was the clubhouse atmosphere that Joe Torre and others had created.
So even though you can’t measure chemistry and it isn’t the only thing that determines how good of a team you are, it certainly can help you if have 25 guys from April to October that like to be together and play with confidence together.
Yeah, people think chemistry is overrated, but it really can be the so called “X factor” that seperates your team from the rest of the field.
sorry msb… Im just not sure why why our sister team, (Padres), es espaniol. Means Papa or Father or Daddy, isn’t just called the Dads’. or pop’s … they certainly need Guillen, we could use an arm. The Fish (Marlins) have an arm(willis)… And papicita has prospects… Jones’ 5 tools and Balentien’s .980 OPS (still under appriciated) wont hurt us, and really can probably help.
#27, that site says that Justin Lehr will be the starting pitcher for the PCL.
So there’s at least two Raniers on the team.
19 – …and maybe that good chemistry and attitude in the clubhouse is somehow related to the fact that the M’s are winning and have a better record at the break then they have in years.
So, to extrapolate a bit, Ichiro is re-signing because they’re successful and this has led to good chemistry. I can’t say for sure, but I bet most here feel sitting Vidro and shifting Ibanez may impact “chemistry” in the very short term, but the continued success expected from those moves would more than make up for it.
It’s the old debate – which came first, the winning or the chemistry?
traffic cloggers!!!
32- No! Im sayin you have to give something to get somethng.
Challenge: Show me a team that finished with less than 70 wins that had great chemistry.
Normally I’d never use the “wisdom” of Hawk Harrelson to prove a point, but a couple weeks ago on a White Sox broadcast he actually said something interesting: basically, that the Sox had great chemistry and there was no explanation for the losing beyond poor on-field performance.
I’d never listen to Hawk for more than about 14 consecutive seconds, so to hear something like that… well, I thought I was hallucinating.
sammy 35 – why are you so worried about age, maybe u got the wrong sight “bro”
42 – That just shows you that chemistry is overrated alone. ‘Apparently’ the Chi Sox have it in spades, but are losing anyways because of ON FIELD PERFORMANCE?!! Oh no! How unlikely!
The issue is not “chemistry” but about making your work environment pleasant and conducive to success. If McClaren and others need a little time to smooth things over with certain players, I see nothing wrong with that. Now, if the players are still upset, then that is on them, but I would hope that the FO and the coaches would do all they reasonably could to make every player as comfortable with a substantial roster change as possible.
The AJ news gave me a stomach ache. Unfortunately, it pales in comparison to the headache I now have from trying to decipher a few of the comments.
i thought we were talkin M’s
Yikes. #37. Someone thinks whatever US history class they had to attend in school didn’t help prepare them for life…or, the common garden variety English Composition class for learning to use the spellchecker.
Kiddo, they’re called the Padres in honor of the missionary priests who were in the vanguard of the Spanish settlement of southern California.
And Mike Honcho? The flakey one may have missed the mark in naming you a Red Sox fan, but I think your suggestions in #13 on how to demote people you expect to continue to produce for you, particularly MLB veterans, is a bit cold. Should I assume you’d sit down and talk with each of them about what’s hoped to be best for the team, reassure them about their roles being important, etc. etc. etc.? I.e., injecting a bit of humanity into the process? That takes time, particularly now when everybody except ASG attendees scatters to the winds for 3 days.
sorry karen, dont like to spell check much… and those spanish missionary priests, have through out time become knows as “Father”, or Popa or dady’o’
48 – I disagree. It is a waste of time to try to stroke the ego of a soon-to-be demoted veteran. And how exactly do you do it? Do you ease him into his benching, by gradually cutting down his ABs? Do you ask him to express his feelings with a therapist (sorry to be facetious)?
If you make the decision to change personnel, you do it. Sit down with the players, explain the situation to them, and ask that they support it. Especially when the changes here (AJ to OF, Ibanez to DH, Vidro to bench) are so obviously needed.
But it need not be a long, drawn out process. Make the move and go forward.
Could the delay with calling up Jones have something to do with how service time is calculated? If they bring him up later would it take an extra year before arbitration and thereafter free agency?
[deleted, see comment guidelines]
Where oh where is DMZ when we need him?
I’m just waiting to see [deleted, entirely incomprehensible] start popping up in this thread.
But I agree with the sentiments that people have expressed; if you’re going to make the move, it behooves no one to dilly-dally.
Sit Vidro down, say “you aren’t cutting it as the DH”, and put him on the bench. Let him assuage his hurt feelings with a new Escalade or something.
I gave up on this thread long time ago
54, hilarious, and I second the nomination for a certain poster’s comments. BTW certain poster, I think we had a pretty informative discussion not but a few days ago about what a terrible mistake aquiring Willis would be.
[Deleted for aesthetic reasons]
Anyone lose sound for the intro when they were talking about Adam Jones? If I was the only one, I’m gonna break my tv.
3 days without fantasy baseball is driving me crazy.
No i heard it all…
52 – Why would the Padres need the M’s right fielder when they just picked up Bradley and already have Cameron, Giles and Sledge who will be coming off the DL? Also, they probably wouldn’t give up anything good for Guillen, since at the end of the year he’s basically a free agent since there’s know way they pick up his $9million option for 2008. Guillen’s not a long term solution for them, so why would they give any of their top prospects who figure to help in the long term for him?
Nice to see that Clint Barmes has become the AS that the Rockies thought he’d be three years ago.
Didn’t Lehr throw harder when he was with the A’s?
The M’s wouldn’t be so petty as to change their minds because of an internet leak, would they? How would that make AJ feel?
#61 maybe im a bit to proud of pur Bily Bean type aquisition. And maybe there are not a lot of reasons for any one to keep him. Unless of course you need RBI . Im prtty sure but u tell me does Giles play 2nd Base? Sledge…? The Pad’ will make a move for a bat. Jose Guillen is one of those… kinda like friends with bennies. And they have dwelled fopr so long there has to be a pitcher we could replace Baek and Fierierrrbend with while sealing them to Florida for thie r aavailable starter.
This thread is fascinating. Sort of like watching an accident in slow motion. I know I should turn away but…
65 – Marcus Gile plays 2nd and Brian Giles plays Right Field, Terrmel Sledge is their young outfielder who’s hurt, Milton Bradley was just picked up and they have Mike Cameron in Center…wtf? “friends with bennis”?
Have you looked at the Padres organization, they need the potential young pitchers they have cause Maddux and Wells aren’t getting any younger.
I have no problem with waiting a week before bringing up the kid. For the purposes of a soft landing, it would be a lot better to toss him in against a weaker team than the Tigers.
Wow, Lehr really sucks.
How the hell did Lehr get selected to the All-Star game?
#64 – just because we don’t know what it is doesn’t mean that the team doesn’t have a plan.
Hey Dave – is there any incentive related to service time to delay a call up until a certain date?
66. Amen.
A.J. Wooooooo!
Annnnnd call him up.
Apparently all the good AAA pitchers are not playing in this game due to already having been called up.
It is in Albequerque, 5,312 feet elevation.
pop flies in Tacoma travel 500 feet in Albuquerque…. hence Scott Seabol and Val Pascucci.
Hey Carl…ISOTOPES!!!
According to minorleaguesplits.com (if I’m reading this right), the park increases hits by 21% and homeruns by 79%.
Anyone happen to glance at Adam Jones’ entry at Wikipedia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Jones_%28baseball_player%29
Dewey Defeats Truman.
anyone suggest a good website that ranks the pitchers with highest ground-ball percentage so far this year? I’m interested in who they are. I’d suspect that Baseball Prospectus has it, but I seem to recall you need to be a member. any free sites people can suggest?
Baseball Prospectus is free through the 15th. The Hardball Times is free all the time, and also has that info.
thanks! I had just discovered it on THT!
anyone suggest a good website that ranks the pitchers with highest ground-ball percentage so far this year?
Fangraphs has it too.
Any chance flakeyjakey could be put in the moderation queue? It was bad enough having to wade through his crap in the comments on Baker’s blog, but now here, too?
Ok 28, I’ll bite. The 1994 Seattle Mariners were 10 games under .500 when the strike halted the season. But they ended on a 10-game winning streak after being forced to become “road warriors” when the tiles fell from the Kingdome roof. The next year, the team not only overcame the loss of Junior for three months but took the Indians to six games in the ALCS. The 2001 Mariners, that 116-win team, could only win one game in the ALCS.
Hey.
[Deleted because Derek showed up]
DMZ is here! We’re saved!
Apparently one word is all he can muster. He must be tired of writing and editing from the workshop.
Good to see you back Derek. Dave’s been taking care of things very well.
DMZ! Commenting is fun again!
Wow, DMZ is like the Mariner-blog equivalent of Kibo. Ask, with a true heart, and he shall appear. Pray for deliverance from the clueless and inarticulate, and see your prayers answered. Witness the multitude genuflecting to the false and imaginary gods of chemistry and veteran leadership and see them scattered by the mighty arm of empirical evidence. Cry out in the wilderness of innumeracy and illiteracy and be guided to the promised land of deleted ignorance and moderated stupidity. All say hallelujah!
[this is not a board]
[ce n'est pas un panneau]
Don’t you have to call AJ up right now? Andre Dawson just said he was the best position player on the field.
Wow, DMZ is like the Mariner-blog equivalent of Kibo.
I think of him as the anti-Chris Pirillo. Say his name three times and [deleted]
Andre Dawson is a God among insects.
#94
My guess is the Mariners F.O. will wait awhile so it doesn’t appear that they are letting the suggestions of a weblog run their organization.
The service time issue is a good point. I remember there was some criticism of calling up A-Rod at the end of the 1994 and 1995 seasons and starting his clock too early.
97- Don’t you mean anyone else involved with baseball at all? Writers, blogs, scouts, former players. Everyone but the M’s FO believes he should be in that lineup right now. Hope they have a good reason.
2 for 5 for Jones in the all star game with 2 strike outs and a double. Not too bad but still strikes out too much. Pretty much a bust last year but maybe this is his time. Kinda like Edgar was in AAA when he went up and down with the M’s hitting .400 in AAA but nada in the bigs. But then it clicked for him and the rest is history. Maybe second time is a charm for Jones, but don’t want to mess up the current team chemistry to find out. My bet is find a new home for Vidro in next 2 weeks with a NL team via trade and bring up Jones to fill that spot.
Well, you’re not going to find out if the second time’s the charm until you bring him up, now, can you?
Gotta be done some time, and if you do it while giving your key veterans rest (which they DO need), then it can’t be that much of a decision….
“Why are we taking Prospect Insider as the Bible”
Jason is usually 98% on, and if he was off he was misled. Jones will be up shortly. the only reason he isn’t up now is that haven’t decided who to ship out since Vidro can’t be moved.
I never understood the Vidro thing, it never made sense, just anothe Bavasi blunder
13 games over .500, that is the bright side of bavasi blunders, we are talking total luck in how the team jelled.
Why do people still think Vidro has trade value? Especially to an NL team, where he would have to play the field.
Jones was 20 when he got called up last year, if he had done any more than he did it would have been phenomenal.
I don’t see anyone taking Vidro off our hands.
Not sure Vidro does have a lot of trade value but if he does it won’t be in the AL as a DH. He produced better in the NL and he knows the NL and they know him so there might be a trade opportunity there. As is the case with most Bavasi pickups and discards the M’s will eat some money in the process. That’s what I think will be Bavasi’s ultimate downfall with the owners; too much money eaten on discarded players in less than one year, or at least very little time, with the M’s. That’s no way to run a business.
I think I have more trade value than Jose Vidro.
This thread reminds me of June 22nd vs the Reds.
Johnb in 102 said:
“I never understood the Vidro thing, it never made sense, just anothe Bavasi blunder”
Really, I’m as glas as the next guy that Jones will soon be called up. However, how you define “blunder?” If the M’s had kept Snelling at DH, he’d likely be injured and taking up a roster spot on the DL, or on injury rehabs. Vidro, at least, is second on the club in runs scored, so when he does get on base on base–(4th highest OBP among starters)–it benefits the club. Snelling might not even be on the club, and Fruto would likely be redundant in the current bullpen, maybe replacing Reitsma. Sure, Vidro isn’t nearly a good DH, but he’s at least better than an injured guy.
107: Yeah, that wasn’t a good birthday for me. >
108: Vidro may be better than an injured guy, but he’s not better than an injured guy and several million dollars to find an uninjured guy.
No, vidro is NOT better than an injured guy. Especially a league minimum injured guy. Among qualified batters, players with lower OPS than vidro. Also, most of these guys play the field as well, rather than only having to hit.
L. Castillo, A. Huff, J. Damon (surprised me), A. Gordon, J. Dye (wow), T. Pena JR, Yuni, A.J Pierwhineski, C. Monroe, J. Bartlett, J. Uribe, J, Barfield, G. Laird, B. Crosby, C. Patterson, N. Punto, J. Lugo, and J. Kendall.
Vidro makes more money than all but kendall, Dye, Damon, and well thats it. Kendall is decent defensively, Dye will finish ahead of Vidro in OPS easily, and Damon probably will. The rest consists of middle infielders, backup catchers, and Royals.
Runs scored is the most useless stat to value players. Would you rather have a guy with 1.000 OBP who rarely seemed to score over a 300 AB stretch or a guy who only got on .320 of the time but scored every time over the same time frame?
Vidro is not just a bad DH, he’s a bad regular player. For any team. He’s not even fast to avoid double plays or causing them himself.
So, to recap. Had we kept snelling, he would have gotten hurt and Jones or Balentien or Clement would be up here sooner… And cheaper…and Fruto may or may not be doing something for us…and next year would be a clean slate instead of already giving money to Vidro.
It is inconceivable that someone could read this blog semi-regularly and still find a way to rationalize vidro’s “output” as beneficial to the team.
How would Snelling on the DL take up a roster spot? In any case, why use a roster spot at all? If you don’t have Travis Hafner or Edgar on the roster, there’s no reason why you have to go out and find some guy who is a pale imitation of that. Right now the M’s have one guy (Broussard) who isn’t in the lineup as often as he should be and another guy (Ibanez) who’s in the field way more than he should be. Plenty of successful AL teams use the DH as a “half-rest” spot, rotating guys through regularly and using it to add another LH or RH bat depending on who they’re facing. I suspect the only reason Bavasi went out a blew a wad of cash was because Hargrove wanted “set lineups” (which means a truly Designated Hitter) and because Hargrove preferred “proven vetrans” (which means no kids, injury-prone or otherwise). Hopefully MacLaren is a little more sensibly flexible, leaving Bavasi to make mistakes for his own reasons and not because he’s accommodating someone else’s.
Also, given that Vidro has made more outs than anyone else on the team, he is actually worse than an injured guy. I said it before: if Jones comes up and strikes out at every at bat, he at least won’t be hitting into double plays. That makes him a better deal than Vidro, even before you factor in his defense.
I’m pretty sure that Vidro being driven in a lot has more to do with where he’s been hitting in the order than any sort of repeatable skill.
So any news on how Jones did in the all-star game?
Since this thread isn’t going to get much worse,
I’m pleased to report that the unbearable 4th of July traffic spike in McCall has subsided a bit, and I was actually able to get through town in under 20 minutes today.
Thank you Corco
Right now the M’s have one guy (Broussard) who isn’t in the lineup as often as he should be and another guy (Ibanez) who’s in the field way more than he should be…
Yep, fits in with my “trickle down” theory of Bad Moves. Bad Moves are ones that not only cost you and don’t solve a problem, but actually create additional ones. Soriano for HoRam and Snelling/Fruto for Vidro were both Bad Moves.
+littered with dead businesses that were flip-floppers and wafflers.+
Businesses (like politicians) would be better-advised to figure out and make the right decisions, rather than worrying about the perception of being a flip-flopper or waffler.
If the M’s bring up AJ in the next two weeks, do I care that they vacillated along the way? No.
If the M’s decisively go with Vidro or Carl Everett and stick with each for 300+ ABs because they made a decision and don’t want to be perceived as waffling, am I happy to have a front office that knows its own mind? Of course not. (We won’t even get into Weaver et al.)
Did Coke worry about flip-flopping when they revived “Coke Classic” to save the company and grow it bigger than it had ever been before? Again, of course not.
Do I wish my current and future presidents are capable of changing plans based on the reality in front of their eyes? It’s a forlorn hope, but yes I do. Please flip-flop away.
I’m willing to let this play out, but I hope the M’s soon make the flip-flop they should have made two months ago. If they waffle along the way, more power to them.
119: Thank you.
Meh.
#119, you’re talking about being decisive AND agile. Make a decision, implement as well as you can, but be ready with another plan if it doesn’t work out.
What I’m talking about is not being able to make a decision at all–vacillating with no purpose, changing your mind before making the decision, delaying making a decision for two months. That sort of indecision helps no one–you SHOULD care if the Mariners vacillated for two months over a decision, because that’s two months wasted, and x number of games they may have lost because of the decision they should have made.
119 – Exactly.
There is a big, big difference between not having made a decision, and unnecessarily delaying the implementation of a decision that has already been made.
Everything I’m hearing is that this decision has already been made, so it’s in everybody’s best interest to have the implementation happen as rapidly as possible.
The Coke analogy is flawed; this situation would be similar to them saying “We’re going to bring Coke Classic back, but we’re going to wait a while before actually doing it, for no discernible reason”.
[deleted]
Why would I keep reading after this point? You’re dismissing the world of rational argument because some people abuse it. At that point we’re just sounding off at each other, which one can find most anywhere else if desired.
Vidro has hit for average, he hasn’t hit for modest power, he doesn’t have speed, and he really doesn’t have a defensive position anymore which hurts the teams flexibility. He also is an expensive player that will block kids such as Balantien, and Jones. He also keeps another good bat on the bench in Broussard.
If Vidro was only signed for one year, and we didn’t have to give up anyone to get him, the move would look better.
You can’t discount Vidro’s contributions since he is a veteran piece of a pie that happens to be 13 games over .500 at the all star break. He is obviously part of the chemistry that got us to this point.
As for Snelling, and Fruto, we all hated to see them go, but neither would have made much of an impact on this years team.
Is Vidro awful?
No, he is hitting like an average second baseman, which is what he formerly was. Problem is he is now pretty much limited to DH, and we need more power, and just happen to have it in the minors.
#124, you are way off base.
First, BA is a horrible way to value players.
Second, Vidro has no other skill: no power, no ability to get on base other than BA, no speed, no fielding. So all we have to judge him on his BA, it is his only positive skill, and against that you have one big negative skill, GIDP.
The M’s have a better hitter against righties sitting on the bench (and he was on the roster before Bavasi stupidly signed Vidro to a 2 year albatross of a contract.)
Here’s the thing, even if Vidro was performing at his best career year BA level, he would still be a bad DH. Look around the league, see what other teams have for a DH or what they are using as platoon or part time DH’s. Use some other metrics to judge hitters, use OPS+, use RC/9, use something that considers the total value of a hitter.
Geez, compare Vidro to a replacement level hitter you could get for free. Then take the money and buy a pitcher.
Paul, all that you say is true, but it will take a miracle, or a DFA to get rid of him, but hey, it isn’t my money.
I put on the earphones just in time to hear Nelly & Mahler agree that you should give a Jones up for ‘a big time arm’. No actual thought on just who that available ‘big time arm’ might be, but as Nelly points out, he agrees with Joe Morgan who says, just what has that minor league prospect done for your team?
sigh.
I combed through this thread and still must have missed this:
Why didn’t we have BOTH of our promising outfielders in the AAA All-Star game? Shouldn’t Wladimir Balentien have been there too?
Can’t wait to see Vidro OUT of the starting line up either…someday…sigh
johnb, yes, but they have to consider the money a sunk cost. They spent it, and there is no way to get it back, no one is going to assume Vidro’s contract (if Bavasi can find someone to take Vidro and his contract, I’ll change my opinion of Bavasi!)
I think putting him on the bench doesn’t take a great stretch. If they have better options for bench players, then DFA him. That’s not really a miracle, just good decision making.
I remember other times in the past when the Mariners had a lot of deadwood on the roster (more than the current team does!) and a new manager came in and got the team to make a lot of changes to improve the team through subtraction. Dick Williams was good at that (until he realized the team still sucked and he gave up and coasted the rest of the way). Bob Melvin was really bad at it, maybe because he wasn’t given the authority or maybe because he was too much of a good organization man.
I really must stop torturing myself by reading mlb.com articles that spark my curiosity when I’m looking at schedules, etc.
Apparently, we have no reason to call up AJ. According to the guy who wrote the Midterm Report for the AL West, regarding the Mariners:
“Gold stars:
Ichiro Suzuki; hitting 26 points above his career average. Jose Vidro; career National Leaguer has done a terrific job adapting to the new role of DH. J.J. Putz; not only perfect in 24 save opportunities, but has gone either multiple-innings or 1-2-3 ninths for most of them.”
I don’t need to point out which statement is insane.
I like Vidro for what he is: a contact hitter who can work counts and a good lockeroom presence.
I see in today’s PI an article by David Andriesen that says that McLaren knows nothing about a pending call up of Adam Jones, and says he wouldn’t be in favor of it because the team is playing well and he doesn’t want to interrupt that.
Ugh.
McLaren “knows nothing” about it. That doesn’t sound too good. I hope he’s just being dishonest and that this is the sort of thing he is in the loop about. He may not have heard about an impending call up, but he should know SOMETHING about what the status is regarding AJ.
As for Andriesen, you have to be kidding me. Yeah, like we couldn’t be playing well if Vidro’s impotent bat wasn’t in the line up and Raul’s clay of feet weren’t in LF (eyes rolling).
Sorry, just couldn’t let this slip past:
111: Runs scored is the most useless stat to value players. Would you rather have a guy with 1.000 OBP who rarely seemed to score over a 300 AB stretch or a guy who only got on .320 of the time but scored every time over the same time frame?
A pretty strong assertion to begin with, given that it is commonly accepted that runs scored is far more useful than, say, batting average or RBI. But the example you use to demonstrate your point is outrageous– the likelyhood that someone who got on base EVERY TIME for 300 plate appearances but “rarely seemed to score” has got to be very small.
In fact, a good argument could be made that runs scored is more valuable than OBP if we use the Runs Created metric to measure a player’s value. (Dave used this to estimate Ichiro’s worth in the previous thread. I’m getting my data from baseball-reference.com which uses (H+BB)*TB/(AB+BB) to calculate Runs Created).
Here is the list of who led MLB last year in OBP. (In parenthesis is where they ranked on the top 10 runs created list):
1. Helton (10)
2. Giambi
3. Pujols (2)
4. Giles
5. Rodriguez (3)
6. Lee (1)
7. Berkman
8. Hafner
9. Johnson
10. Abreu
And here’s the top 10 in runs in MLB last year (and where they ranked on the top 10 RC in MLB):
1. Pujols (2)
2. Rodriguez (3)
3. Jeter
4. Lee (1)
5. Ortiz (4)
6. Damon
7. Rollins
8. Young (8)
9. Figgins
10. Ramirez (9)
10. Teixeira (5)
There’s less variation between the Runs Scored/Runs Created list than the OBP/RC list. Now this is by no menas a throrough analysis, but I think it at least casts doubt on the two claims that 1. Runs scored is the most useless stat to value players, and 2. OBP is a better tool than runs scored to evaluate a given player’s skill.
Well, I’d just answer that by saying that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
In other words, I’m not sure that scoring runs (other than by hitting home runs, which is why I suspect there is some correlation between thsoe lists) is necessarily due to some inherent skill that a player has, so much as it is a product of where in the order they hit.
There is some player skill involved in getting oneself into scoring position, but I think that OBP works okay as a measure for that portion of it.
Why didn’t we have BOTH of our promising outfielders in the AAA All-Star game? Shouldn’t Wladimir Balentien have been there too?
Balentien played in the Futures game. I don’t know if it is actually a rule, but from what I can recall from past years a guy plays in one or the other, not both.
omigod.
just in the last minutes on KJR, from several different voices:
‘Vidro is getting on base, he’s scoring runs’
‘you want to leave Guillen in right, he has a cannon and Ibanez has been playing great in left field’
The “Correlation does not imply causation” fallacy does not apply in my point, though. That fallacy argues that because A resembles B, A causes B. I am not arguing Runs Scored causes Runs Created. I am arguing Runs Scored correlates better to Runs Created than does OBP.
If we agree that the top list of Runs Scorerd more closely resembles the top list of Runs Created than does the top OBP list, and if we agree that Rund Created is an exemplary metric for determining a player’s value, doesn’t it stand to reason that Runs Scored is a better metric than OBP?
The top OBP list has more “sluggers” on it than does the Runs Scored list, so I’m not sure the correlation is preceisely due to home runs hit. I’d argue that Runs Scored probably *does* measure (however obliquely) some inherent, repeatable skill a player has– namely getting on base *and* hitting for power.