Dear Orioles
Dave · July 19, 2007 at 7:15 am · Filed Under Mariners
Hey Baltimore,
I just wanted to say I was so happy you could make it this week. We really enjoyed seeing you again. Your generosity really is overwhelming – while you certainly didn’t need to give us an entire ballgame, we really appreciated it. That was really nice of all of you. I wish I could thank Erik, Daniel, and Chad personally, but I trust that you’ll pass the message on. What a kind gesture from you guys!
Anyway, thank you so much for the great gift! We hope we can hang out again soon.
Your friends,
Seattle.
Comments
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I’ve gor 5 bucks on a fruit basket.
…and a spell checker I don’t use.
I read a similar post thanking “king” Felix on a Orioles fan blog. Misplaced the link.
p.s. remember! a true friend doesn’t let the Yankees win too!!!
So what’s the deal with Jones? Why isn’t he up? Clearly he’s an upgrade over Broussard and Ibanez in left (and at the plate) – everyone in baseball except the M’s knows it. So what’s the hold up? Who’s responsible for keeping him in AAA?
I’m willing to guess that it’s the Mariners’ management. We’ve heard that refrain a lot around here. Nobody really knows.
The organization seems to feel that there’s no reason to change anything as long as things are going well (well apparently means sitting in second place). That’s what can be gathered from public statements anyway. They may have actual reasons that they’ve kept to themselves.
Was great to see so many baserunners stranded by the M’s. It’s like they were just teasing the fans by getting on 1st 2nd no out, or bases juiced with 1 out, and not being able to do ANYTHING (except the RBI walk present from the O’s).
Very frustrating. We deserved to lose, but were fortunate.
5 (pinky) – A lot of banging of heads on walls around here about that lately. The last idea I heard kicked around was that there might be some chance he comes up today or tomorrow for the road trip. Less pressure than playing at home, or some other nonsense like that.
That was a great letter.
To the point to a well deserved audience. Let’s hope we can send one to Toronto and Texas too.
The last idea I heard kicked around was that there might be some chance he comes up today or tomorrow for the road trip. Less pressure than playing at home, or some other nonsense like that.
I posted that I didn’t think it would be the worst idea to hold him back until after the Detroit series given the nearness to the ASB & the Bonderman/Verlander factor. After that though, I don’t think there’s a good reason. And watching Broussard last night was painful.
The contrast in outfield range between Bloomquist and Broussard was painfully obvious last night. Broussard has no buisness in the outfield.
Mel Antonen has an article today proclaiming F-Rod the heir to Mariano Rivera, and somehow manages to not mention Putz.
Maybe they want to trade Pacman for a pitcher. A lot of fans will simply see minor league outfielder for major league starting pitcher, sounds good. Although I have heard that the M’s have been calling Pacman untouchable for trades.
“Pacman” – Didn’t even make that connection, nice.
Dear Seattle,
Our Moms are so happy that we have friends who play major league baseball, and they say you can come over to our house on August 7th. Does that work for you? We can play baseball. We’ll try to avoid a big fight over ghost runners.
Your BFFL,
Baltimore
Uh, yeah, let’s drop the pacman thing post haste.
15: I want to put the kibosh on any “Pacman” nickname for AJ. Also note, we’d be well to avoid other football imported names, like “the Juice,” for two obvious reasons. I’d also like to avoid “Iron Mike.”
These names don’t connote good feelings, so let’s avoid them. Besides, can’t we do better than that? How about, “the Forgotten One.” /snarky
18: JMB!!! When are we going to see a post from you, man? Your public awaits!
For the love of all things baseball, please never, ever say Pacman with regards to Adam Jones. Why on earth would anyone want to tie our guy to that piece of work in the NFL?
If you really feel Adam Jones needs a nickname, could you please be original? I think we need a filter for the word “pacman” that kills any post that contains “pacman”.
All right, how here actually expected (or thought there was a reasonable chance) the M’s would be 1.5 back in the division and 1 back in the WC in late July?
msb, how could Putz be mentioned in that article without any postseason success? Isn’t that the only kind of accomplishment that means anything? Putz would probably just crumble under the pressure of a playoff series.
PS Jeter is the greatest player of all time, and all that.
msb, how could Putz be mentioned in that article without any postseason success? Isn’t that the only kind of accomplishment that means anything? Putz would probably just crumble under the pressure of a playoff series.
PS Jeter is the greatest player of all time, and all that.
didn’t you mean:
PS Jeter is the greatest example of an overrated player of all time, and all that
#23 – “msb, how could Putz be mentioned in that article without any postseason success? Isn’t that the only kind of accomplishment that means anything? Putz would probably just crumble under the pressure of a playoff series.”
Hmm, I don’t know 23, Sports Illustrated, the bastion of the sports media mainstream, found Putz’s accomplishments impressive enough to devote four pages to him in the next issue. You tell me.
PS – Jeter’s overrated
14 (msb) – To be fair to K-Rod, he is only 25. JJ, while insanely dominant the last two years, turned 30 this year. Unless Frankie’s injury prolems resurface, you’d have to assume he’ll be around longer.
And yes, please stop with the Pacman crap. I don’t know much about our Adam Jones, but he doesn’t seem to be an idiot like the NFL’s version.
Are people’s sarcasm filters not working today or something?
With K-Rods funky delivery, I wouldn’t automatically assume that.
A little rant here. It does have some bearing on M’s news (espeically w/ the likes of Guillen, Ibanez, and Broussard getting OF time)
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/fact-or-fiction/ – in reference to Andre Ethier: he doesn’t hit for quite the power you’d like to see out of a corner outfielder
Why, why, why! Why do corner outfielders have to hit for “power”? If he was getting on base a .400 clip would it matter if he was hitting for power. Why do LF and RF HAVE to be big power hitters? I’m not defending Ethier. He’s actually pretty close to an average corner OF all said and told, but he’s still only 25.
I’m afraid if we run Jones out in LF or RF he’s going to get bad press, especially if the .270/.330/.450 or whatever it is projection Dave quoted comes true. Of course, even for a LF, that’s good for a RH hitter at Safeco, but I think we can here the arguments coming. Not enough power. Wow. Now (correct me if I’m wrong), but isn’t the average LF/RF about 10 runs better offensively than the average CF? And isn’t the average CF about 10 runs better defensively than the average LF/RF? If that’s the case, should an average CF be an average LF or RF? Does it matter if they’re saving those 10 runs or creating those 10 runs? I think there’s this perception that corner outfielders need to hit home runs to be good, and truthfully if some guy was saving 20 runs with his glove, and batting like a CF, he’d be a valuable player.
Adam Jones in his prime should be a very good player whether he’s in CF, LF, RF. Also the “experience” drop-off shouldn’t be as bad going from CF to LF or RF, than say 2B to CF or whatever. Am I off base on that?
I think, despite moneyball, the Oakland A’s, all the press, OBP (not that AJ is expected to be an OBP machine) and defense are STILL underrated, and home runs are STILL overrated. It’s really mind boggling. If a 1B has a +10 glove, gets on base at a .430 clip, and has a .450 SLG, is he a bad player because he doesn’t hit for enough power?
It’s becoming painfully obvious that this team needs another bat. We don’t have one guy that strikes fear into the opposing team. We have a collective unit of decent power guys but we need that one guy. No, not Adam Jones.
Bring back Griffey!!
I think if someone could think of a witty play on “Pacman” it might be a good nickname for our Adam Jones.
Corner outfielders don’t have to “hit for power”, but I believe this notion has something to do with the relative distribution of power thoroughout positions.
For example, a 1B w/o power is not ideal b/c your lineup would have to makeup that power at other positions such as SS or 2B where it is difficult to find players with power. Same is true for DH.
Now if said player was a top OBP guy in the 400 plus range, it probably doesn’t matter. I can’t think of any offense related justification to keep a 400 obp guy out of the lineup, getting on base is that important (preaching to choir, i know).
If the player is, say a +20 run defender, he can take quite a hit offensively, and still be a good player.
Also if AJ strikes out alot, the casual fans will be all over him, ala Cameron. My point is more that fans, despite all the advances made in understanding player valuation, still live in the baseball statistical stoneage. I wasn’t attacking the THT article, more than making a point. AJ might get some crap (the, we need a new LF/RF kind of crap) if he’s bat (ie Home Runs and strikeouts) doesn’t live up to fans expectations. That said, plenty of M’s fans have expressed that we should being playing WFB out there, so god knows what their reaction will be. Actually, come to think of it, he just needs to be cute and cudley and M’s fans will probably think he’s the greatest thing.
Defense is underrated because it’s so hard to understand. Derek Jeter still gets Gold Gloves, for goodness sake. There are a lot of smart measurement systems out there, and they often disagree quite a bit on what kind of defensive advantage or disadvantage a player provides.
I think people tend to ignore the factoring in of something they don’t understand. And no one has figured out defense yet.
I think we should stay as far away from the other Adam Jones as possible.
If it was me, like a lot of people here, I’d put AJ in left.
Platoon the other 4 at DH and 1B, and when one of them finally convinces everyone that he is through, DFA him and keep the other 3.
But the most frustrating thing is the total disregard of platooning. It’s like Hargrove is still here. He was so afraid of platooning that even when he did it, he claimed he wasn’t doing it.
Well, I’m not going to call him Pacman here, since the authors have expressed their distaste. I probably won’t call him that at all, actually, but I don’t think it’s such a bad nickname. If there was anything at all that evoked the NFL player about Jones, that would be one thing, but since he seems like about the most standup guy around, I find the dissonance kind of fun. As long as he’s never referred to as Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones, that is, which is the only way I’ve ever seen the other’s nickname employed.
#4 “p.s. remember! a true friend doesn’t let the Yankees win too!!! and #8 in the same vein:
I have been watching the Toronto/NYY series out of the corner of my eye, and it was teeth-gritting annoying to see how many runners the Blue Jay batters stranded. They could have swept that series if they’d…just…hit. They didn’t need to hit whoppers, just a few of those bloopers and bleeders the Yanks were hitting when THEY had guys on base.
So now the Yanks are breathing down the M’s neck in the WC race.
Memo to Mariners hitters: hit it where it’s pitched, something good might happen…and the team might not look so much like it need another bat.
P.S. Re: “overrated”: ARod’s been doing half of Jeter’s fielding for him the past 3 years anyway, so it goes ‘way beyond overrated.
Can I also suggest a filter for the word “Griffey”?
*head asplode*
If he develops to his potential, Adam Jones will eventually hit for (”corner outfielder”) power. He’s a 21-year old in the hardest hitting environment in AAA, and he’s smacked 23 home runs and slugged .591. I don’t know if we can expect that right away, but as a prospect he’s got as much offensive potential as anyone, save Justin Upton or Jay Bruce. If he learns to control the strikezone, he may be on par with those 2.
#40, I realize that. He has the potential to be a special player.
None of the decent metrics think Jeter is good.
I’ll make a prediction – if AJ doesn’t get called up today, then the only way he becomes a regular this year is if there’s an injury.
Dave,
Can you please point me to a link, or explain to the rest of us the service time rules re: arbitration/club control and Adam Jones’ pending callup (or lack thereof)?
Is there a business reason that he may not be up yet, or is this simply a “let’s not rock the boat” non-move?
43: Yep. But a lot of reasonable people who have been playing and watching professional baseball for many, many years are still convinced that he’s a great fielder.
You can’t trust your eyes, and all the metrics have flaws. Of course we can make intelligent guesses, it just takes quite a bit of data, and effort. Thus, everyone continues thinking that all corners outfielders should be Carlos Lee.
Logger in #16:
“‘Pacman’ – Didn’t even make that connection, nice.”
Or, horrible, as the case may be.
darrylzero, as a standup guy Jones, should he even require a nickname, deserves an honorable one all his own, not a dissonant one to serve someone’s sense of irony.
NFL nicknames, bad. Truly there was, is, and ever will be, only ONE “L.T.”
Fair warning – any trade speculation post from here on out will be deleted, and if you continue to post trade speculation in every thread we have, we’ll put you in the mod queue.
We can’t make this any clearer. Knock it off.
Re: corner outfielders — there’s a an understandable tendency to want to see more offensive production out of positions with less defensive value. Ideally in some magical system where you can weight offense and defense correctly, as you move along that defensive spectrum from CF to 1B you’d like to see a corresponding increase in OPS (or at least slugging). Thus people expect more production (especially XBH) from the corner outfield spots vs CF, but shouldn’t expect more than 1B (or DH — which is why Vidro is not well regarded here despite his “high average”: a position with zero defensive value needs to offer the most offensive production, and should be the easiest to fill with some kind of slugger). None of this should come as a surprise. But while that wisdom is fine as far as it goes, it needs to be park adjusted. LF in Safeco is as demanding a position as CF is in many other parks: that corner of Safeco is only “pitcher-friendly” to the extent the guy playing there can turn flyballs into outs instead of doubles. Which is why Raul isn’t an asset there, even when he was hitting better. (Was that as recently as last year? Really? Seems like forever.) AJ* in LF doesn’t have to hit as well as a corner outfielder on a lot of other teams to deliver equal value to the M’s. So while we still expect corner outfielders to hit (Guillen manages to make up for some of his, uh, defensive wandering with the bat that way) we don’t need to set our expectations as quite as high as some other teams’ fans for their corner outfielders. Think of Jones as the anti-Manny; as long as he doesn’t hit into double-plays like Vidro and shows at least some of what he’s been doing with a bat in Tacoma, he’s a major upgrade for the team. (Not that that is news to anybody who has been reading the blog).
*Other possible nicknames, all rejected: A-Jo, Jonsie, Ad-man… as well as derivative nicks borrowed from players in other sports. But I just had a thought: once he’s up and playing with the club fulltime, wouldn’t it be cool if Jones Soda did an “Adam” flavor/label?
I agree that you want to see a corresponding increase in “production”, but that can come in numerous forms. I agree LF defense is more important at Safeco than other parks. I’m just thinking, if a LF is -10 defense and +10 offense compared to a CF in LF, it looks as if the difference is more ore less 0 at the averages.
#37 – What about it makes it a good name? The only thing it refers to at all is a destined-to-be-suspended-for-life football player.
What does that bring to the table?
If your point was the dissonance, shouldn’t he be Centipede or Q-Bert or something?
I still like it zero, but I see no value in any variation of Pacman at all.
Tampa Bay will probably lose today’s game but they it was definitely winnable for them.
Re#8Was great to see so many baserunners stranded by the M’s. It’s like they were just teasing the fans by getting on 1st 2nd no out, or bases juiced with 1 out, and not being able to do ANYTHING (except the RBI walk present from the O’s).
Is there a study about compares the results of just bunting when bases are loaded and you just need one run? I look at Sexton coming up w/ bases loaded and less than 2 outs. I wonder if just bunting could provide better results. I’m tired of seeing popouts and strike outs. This is not smart baseball I know, but I’m wondering if there’s a study that tells us HOW Unsmart?
Well, I don’t think I have anything to add that I didn’t say. It makes me chuckle, because he’s at the opposite end of the celebrity-athelete-personality-spectrum from the NFL player, but I’m not asking anyone else to like it. And I don’t have enough appreciation/concern for nicknames that I think it impugns or diminishes our AJ at all or anything like that. Anyway, I wasn’t so much saying that I think people should call him that as pointing out one line of appreciation for it, since everyone was bemoaning it as horrible, which I thought was a little silly. But I’m not remotely invested in this, so let’s drop it.
P.S. The Jeter comment was supposed to be the part of my earlier comment that was so over the top that it confirmed the sarcasm of the entire bit. I think K-Rod is overrated, if only because he seems a little prone to late season collapses (probably from fatigue). And I’m well aware that Jeter’s defense is abysmal, though I think maybe we should stop trying to claim that A-Rod is making his numbers look better. A-Rod does not look like a good defender to me anymore.
Madman Jones
How about “Tacman” (Tacoma man)?
Until the Mariners promote Jones, we can just call him AAAdam.
Nick (57): Rimshot!
Jeff Nelson thinks all JJ needs is a cool song that heralds his appearance into the ball game, one they can play as the gates open.
54. As I understand it, Arod’s presence makes Jeter ‘look’ better and he now wins gold gloves despite little or no change in his defensive metrics.
I like Tacman and the name gets more ridiculous the longer he stays there.
Doesn’t JJ already have a cool song? Isn’t is some old AC-DC riff? I saw a game at Dodger Stadium when Gagne was mowin’ ‘em down and JJ’s entrance at Safeco reminds me of that.
I look at Sexton coming up w/ bases loaded and less than 2 outs. I wonder if just bunting could provide better results. I’m tired of seeing popouts and strike outs.
Sexson.
He has only been up 7 times this season with the bases loaded and any number of outs, and is 2 for 7. Small sample, inconclusive results.
With a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs (18 PA) he is batting 267/389/467, with 4 K’s. Not terrible.
Over the previous 3 seasons, his numbers are the following:
Bases loaded: 522/581/1.652 (!)
Man on 3rd less than 2 out: 286/400/757
RISP: 285/390/582
No doubt he’s had an awful year. He has been awful with RISP, and awful without. He should be sitting more. He should not bat 4th anymore. But you’re whining about the wrong thing.
The Sexton was a self-propelled artillery piece built by the Canadians for the British during the Second World War.
The Sexson is a quasi-Major League baseball player who is currently underperforming for the Seattle Mariners.
The BEST closer entrance is Hoffman’s in San Diego. With a 1-run lead heading to the bottom of the ninth, everyone knows what’s coming. Fan noise starts first, then the ear-splitting first bell tone of AC/DC’s Hell’s Bells. Then the place comes unglued.
I always liked Nightmare for Kazuhiro Sasaki.
Trackman Jones. He will track them down, throw them out and hit them in the alleys to the track and even further back.
Actually AJ sounds fine to me.
Greg
How ’bout “The Box,” for his legendary assortment of tools.
turns out Jeff really meant they should start playing his song as soon as the 8th inning ends ….
Groz on the calls to sit Richie for Ben: “nobody liked Ben Broussard last year — it’s the typical Seattle fan who is influenced by numbers from year to year…”
I’d also be interested to know whether people think there are business reasons for not bringing up Jones, i.e. not wanting to burn a year of service.
In determining eligibility for free agency and arbitration, there must be criteria to measure years of service. If the Mariners felt strongly about bringing him up I think they would, but if they are somewhat on the fence, that might well be an additional factor holding him down.
If the M’s can play him as a call-up in September without it being deemed a service year, at this point they might be bringing him to free agency a year earlier just for an extra 75 or 100 ABs.
Jones had 74 at bats last year. Did that burn a year of service? I’d be interested to know the criteria for a year of service.
Best Closer Entrances:
1) Gagne in LA — “Welcome to the Jungle.” “Game Over” flashing on the screen. And his menacing goggles.
2) Rivera in NY — “Enter Sandman.” Expressionless. Ballgame.
3) Putz in Seattle — “Thunderstruck.” Jog to the mound. Great stare.
4) Hoffman in San Diego — “Hells Bells.” Crowd erupts. Changeups.
That was figured around here last year, as a general case. And it turns out that anything after July, I think, doesn’t have that much of an impact on the clock…
Didn’t RJ enter game 5, bottom 9, 1995 ALDS to ‘Welcome to the Jungle’? Whatever it was it was cool.
Yeah, I liked “Nightmare” a lot too. If they could just find (or make) an instrumental version of Immortal Technique’s “Point of No Return,” that would also be phenomenal. Nas’ “Hate me Now” does have an instrumental that I think could be pretty great (if you skipped some of the opening seconds):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T9j1jTcEZAA
In general, I think a lot of the RZA-esque beats + strings are nicely ominous, in a way very similar to “Nightmare,” but a little tougher and meaner sounding. “Point of No Return” gets the edge for me because the people that did know the lyrical content would really appreciate it. But as far as I know, no one has ever chosen a song like that.
Can you please point me to a link, or explain to the rest of us the service time rules re: arbitration/club control and Adam Jones’ pending callup (or lack thereof)?
A year of service is defined as 172 days on the major league roster (either active or disabled). A player is under club control until he completes a season with which he finishes with more than 6 years of major league service. Basically, that’s 1,032 days of being on a major league roster. It doesn’t matter if they’re sequential or over many different seasons.
Arbitration is a little more tricky – a player is eligible for aribtration after he finishes a year with 3 or more years of major league service. However, an exception is made for the top 16% of all players with 2 years of major league service, and they are granted an extra year of arbitration after they finish a year with 2 full years of major league service. These players are often referred to as Super-Two players.
The benefits of keeping a player in the minors for service time reasons pretty much expire after mid-May or so of any given year. It’s almost impossible to become a super-two player if you aren’t in the majors during the first 4-5 weeks of a season.
At this point, there is absolutely no service time benefit to leaving Adam Jones in Tacoma.
Bill Krueger was on KJR the other day talking about Jones and I’m wondering if what he was saying doesn’t reflect the organization’s thinking. Basically what he said was:
A) The team is too right-handed already.
B) Jones should play every day and because of A he wouldn’t.
C) You can’t sit Vidro because he’s a good #2 hitter.
D) They’ll likely bring Jones up just before the deadline in September.
So basically no thinking about his added defense in left. Lame. Doesn’t watching Ibanez and (even worse) Broussard put on a clown show in left night after night even bother these guys?
Re 71: I’d be surprised if Jones could be called up now, play 60 games with 240 at bats, and not have that count as a year of service.
Check this out:
http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/?p=10541
The post references Julio Franco’s tenure with the Mets, and likely Willie Randolph’s comments were directed at him specifically. However, I can’t help but wonder if maybe Randolph gets at a larger point here:
Dave: Thanks for the explanation. That’s interesting to know.
Doesn’t watching Ibanez and (even worse) Broussard put on a clown show in left night after night even bother these guys?
Last night was just jaw-dropping. Not to say that AJ would have kept the 7th scoreless but Broussard really looked helpless. If last night didn’t clinch it for the org, I’m at a loss as to what would.
BTW: Bonds just hit 753.
as part of why he didn’t want to make Raul DH (mostly because he knows Raul doesn’t like it much) Nelson actually said he didn’t understand why people complained about Ibanez’ defense, pointing to the catch he made at the fence the other night as proof he is a good left-fielder.
AJ isn’t going to forget the team’s failure to promote him. This is going to come back and bite the M’s in the butt. They are probably sooo worried about disrespecting Raul, but they need to be worried about AJ.
Just shows that there are no good measures for defense. Any fool can look at a number like batting average or even OPS…but judgement things like range are beyond them (a lot of it because they just don’t show up well on TV).
81: Dammit…and from someone who actually played!!! Nelson, in his inner thoughts must realize that a good LF makes that play look easy? Forget it, why would I expect honesty from these guys? They abide by that unwritten code of not throwing players under the bus…
Dave, just tell the truth on Friday, will you please?
AJ isn’t going to forget the team’s failure to promote him. This is going to come back and bite the M’s in the butt. They are probably sooo worried about disrespecting Raul, but they need to be worried about AJ.
You really think so? It’s not like he has any rights so he can hold out in the future or anything like that, and three years from now is the soonest he’d be dealing with an arbitration issue.
If anything, they are probably doing AJ a FAVOR by keeping him down there, because I think it is safe to surmise that the longer he is down there the better he will perform when he comes up, so his stats will probably be better.
If anything, they are probably doing AJ a FAVOR by keeping him down there, because I think it is safe to surmise that the longer he is down there the better he will perform when he comes up, so his stats will probably be better.
If he wasn’t tearing up the league, I would agree that he had something left to learn there. But if he is dominating pitchers in AAA, his hitting probably isn’t going to get better by further dominating them.
As to Nelson’s comment, I posted something when that catch happened. It was a good catch, but someone faster would have made the catch easily. We need to help people look at range statistics.
85 – That’s some highly suspect logic there.
I hope that AJ isn’t being dangled as trade bait, that’s what I hope.
If we get rid of him for some crappy “veteran leadership”, I’m a gonna lose-a my minda.
If anything, they are probably doing AJ a FAVOR by keeping him down there, because I think it is safe to surmise that the longer he is down there the better he will perform when he comes up, so his stats will probably be better.
I disagree. There comes a point in a player’s development when he doesn’t experience the same returns from his work at a certain level as he previously did. Please excuse the rudimentary example, but a guy who continually works out with 185 lbs on the bench press will, at some point, stop getting stronger at the same rate as he previously had.
So it is with Jones. His development has likely reached the point where the improvements he has to make must be made at a higher level. Sure, we’d like his K/BB ratio to improve (see Wlad Balentien), but given his current level of production, he can afford to move up to the bigs, be productive, and still make the improvements he needs make without being a detriment to the lineup.
He has no business being in Tacoma.
If anything, they are probably doing AJ a FAVOR by keeping him down there, because I think it is safe to surmise that the longer he is down there the better he will perform when he comes up, so his stats will probably be better.
Doesn’t he get a pay raise moving from the 40 man to the 25 man?
87: I’m with you…the “veteran presence” rationale is driving me crazy right now. I was alluding to that faulty framework back in post 77. The Mets had no problem dumping the Veteran’s veteran…Julio Franco. Granted, he might have been sucking harder than Vidro…but the point is at least somewhat analogous.
Exactly.
People are taking the wrong lesson from leaving Jones in the PCL. He’s learning that it’s OK to strike out as long as you punish the pitcher otherwise—after all, is it REALLY that bad that you strike out once a game if you hammer a double and a home run with a walk the other three ABs in a game?
He has to learn how to handle pitchers that DON’T give him mistakes. And he can only do that in the majors.
I think he’d make more money in the short-term, but he would maybe make more money in the long-term if his first season was more staistically impressive. (Not a huge amount, but more.)
Hopefully if he is getting upset by being left down there he’ll be able to use that positively (like, I’ll SHOW those guys) instead of negatively, but that is going to depend on his character.
Just to reiterate, I’m not digging my heels in about it, and I think they SHOULD call him up, but the orignal thing I was responding to was the idea in #82 that Jones is going to be angry with the M’s and will somehow erform worse than he would otherwise.
84: Nelson is probably comparing Ibanez’ performance in left field to his own (if memory serves right, Lou stuck him there for one or two batters during some game at Fenway).
I read in the Seattle Times couple days ago that the M’s are thinking about signing Jose Guillen to a multi year deal, NOT just exercize his option for next year. What is the thinking behind that? So Sexson, Ibanez, Vidro and Guillen will all be with the team next year if they do that. Ben Broussard will also be under the club’s control next year. Signing Guillen will NOT open up a spot for AJ / Balentine. I don’t understand the logic of the M’s giving an extension to Guillen.
93: I don’t know if that’s the point. What he might be saying is that Ms should avoid making him bitter, b/c when they try to re-sign him down the line, he might not be so amenable to a long-term deal, or to a “home town” discount, or anything else that helps the Ms but requires a little sacrifice on his part.
That said, I think the argument assumes way too much, if that’s the point he’s making.
93-
It’s not a question of his performance, it’s a question of his willingness to compromise in future trade talks.
95: Balentien
FYI…
I think he’d make more money in the short-term, but he would maybe make more money in the long-term if his first season was more staistically impressive. (Not a huge amount, but more.)
That seems kinda unfounded. Beltre didn’t put up terribly gaudy stats for the first few years with LA to cite one example. Teams that punished young players for sucking when they first came up (but who develop into elites) probably wouldn’t fare too well.
Could all of you who think they are inside AJ’s head please get out. I think it’s getting crowded in there.
Sigh, future contract talks sorry.
What I find perplexing about the whole Adam Jones situation is that it goes against the organizational philosophy of “push them until they fail”. As soon as players demonstrates an ability to succeed at a certain level (and sometimes before), they are elevated to tougher competition. This is pretty incongruent with Adam Jones being in AAA for the past month.
I guess that they could worry that Jones on the M’s would hurt the team if he does “fail” (though the level of success required to actually improve the teams is a pretty low bar). But it doesn’t seem like they would be keeping him in AAA for developmental reasons.
Jeter is the greatest example of an overrated player of all time, and all that.
Not really, because how can you overrate a player who’s a legitimate Hall of Famer is he drops dead on the field today, and is on pace to be top-10 at his position, all time?
My feeling is he’s a great player- but his D is overrated, his O is underrated (the list of SS’s with .400 OBP’s is VERY short), so on balance, he’s a great player.
He’s also overrated for his alleged clutchness. But yeah, he’s an obvious first-ballot hall-of-famer anyway.
Adam ‘Tacman’ Jones is hilarious on many levels, given Adam ‘Pacman’ Jones’ legal issues.
93: I have no idea how Jones feels about this – and I’m not assuming that he has a huge ego. But I think he knows where he stands on prospect lists, as well as who’s ahead of him on the depth chart – and how well they are doing.
Do I need to remind you that the M’s don’t have a very good track record of holding on to farm-raised stars? He probably won’t be playing CF in Seattle, which is bad for Jones’ first big contract anyway. Why make it worse? How AJ feels about this team is way more important than how Raul Ibanez feels.
The PI says Jason Davis is off the 40 and outrighted to Tacoma. Does that mean he cleared waivers?
I’m not saying he’s anything to be excited about, but this seems like a very mild bit of good news.
106: I think it is a wild leap to say that Jones spending two (perhaps) too many (in some people’s minds, but mine included) months in Tacoma will have a negative impact on a contract he may or may not be in line to receive a minimum of three and maximum of six years form now. There is a LOT that will happen between now and then, good AND bad.
Yes, Davis cleared waivers. It was his first outright assignment to the minor leagues, so he could not refuse it.
#95–
I believe Baker said that Guillen was looking for a multi year deal– here and
here
#95, in regards to Guillen contract situation.
I too see a problem with the bottleneck of Ibanez, Sexson, Vidro, Broussard and Guillen, and the impact that might have on retaing both AJ and Balentien. But I think the problem is not with Guillen, but with Ibanez, Sexson and Vidro. Guillen is younger (30), better defensively (at least with his arm), and if you care or not, he provides “club-house fire” , and ummmm he is a better hitter than the guys above.
I am not a big fan of the balanced argument lineup (LB/RB), personnaly, if you are a batter and your qualification for batting is because of your handedness then I get worried. And this ultimately would lead people to believe that the M’s going forward in the next 1-3 years will most likely not have Ichiro, Beltre, AJ, Lopez, Yuni, Kenji, Guillen, and Balentien all in the “standard line-up” (which Mac is trying to best his pal Hargrove on doing). Cause then your last spot is for Ibanez or Sexson. This just solidifies the platoon argument that Dave has been calling for.
So, to get back to the orginal question. I hope the M’s do sign Guillen to 3-4 yr extension. He’s not the problem, it’s the other over-priced “Homers” that will have to realize that what is best for the team is for them to take on different (reduced) roles.
the “club-house fire” was sarcasm.
I like “Tacman” too, for as long as they’ve got him stuck in Tacoma. I’d be happy to see and use that nickname as long as we retire it when he joins the big club.
#56: that’s actually got all of the elements except staying power……
Meh. Signing him to a 3-4 year extension will MAKE him into one of those over-priced “Homers” in year 3 and 4…
Not that this is a Derek Jeter thread, but I don’t think him being quite possibly the most overrated player in recent memory, AND him being a first-ballot hall of famer, are necessarily mutually exclusive.
He’s an excellent hitter (a defensive butcher despite all of his Gold Gloves, though) who gets a lot of adulation because he plays for the Yankees, is a good-looking guy, and fits the traditional “team leader” role.
So the Tigers pulled one out against Nathan in the 10th, and the Angels have already won. But we can still cheer for Texas to pound Cleveland tonight.
#116
I really don’t think Guillen will be a Mariner next year without an extension to 2009 or 2010. Don’t think he’s not looking around at all the money going around the league, and he can probably demand ~10-12mil, while the option is only for 8.5mil.
This is in essence his free agent year, and you know he wants to get paid for having a good year, why would he accept the option for next year, and have to go through another “free agent year” and hope he doesn’t get injured or suck, thus ruining his big payday.
If I were a betting man I would say 95% chance that Guillen gets a 3-4 deal from someone, I’d just prefer him on our team, cause beyond AJ and Balentien, I don’t see MLB ready OFs in our system in the next 3 yrs.
“…beyond AJ and Balentien, I don’t see MLB ready OFs in our system in the next 3 yrs.”
How many do we need?
You know, I was just looking at the M’s schedule for the rest of the year, and I realized something remarkable about the final month:
In September, the M’s play 29 games (including the extra makeup game with Cleveland).
Of those 29 games, 11 are with teams they may be fighting for a playoff spot (4 with the Angels, 4 with Cleveland, three with Detroit).
Of the remaining 18 games, none are against a team that currently has a winning record: 2 vs Toronto (plus one the last day of August), 3 each vs NY and Texas, four against the hopeless Devil Rays, and a whopping six against the so-far hapless A’s.
Now, I realize the A’s are going to get better because they always do, and especially this year because they’ll have people coming back off the DL (plus the usual Billy Beane magic). Toronto and/or NY could improve to a winning record by September too. But by September the teams that are out of it will be trying out the kids. So really, other than a taste of the Royals, you couldn’t ask for the end of a season to set up better in terms of greasing the skids with bottom dwellers, not to mention controlling your own destiny. Heck, just looking at the two teams the M’s are trying to catch right now, the Indians and Angels, there’s eight games in the last 10 days.
NY doesn’t have a winning record??
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings
Check this
119: Really? You would?
Hmm…I can see your point, but why don’t we just accept that we bought low on Guillen, and figure we could do it again.
I see the Guillen move as one of great savvy by our FO. That said, if the market is too steep for him, you let him walk as we have options. Ichiro will be there for years; AJ will most definitely be up next year barring disaster. If that third OF spot is a platoon btw Wlad and someone else, like say…Jeremy Reed, then so be it. Its the cheaper option, and one that would allow us to buy some help for the starting rotation.
119 – I agree with you. I just hope the front office will look at the potential in AJ and VB and pass on JG.
OTOH, now we have two guys best suited for CF. Jones looked great to take over if Ichiro walked, but now that we (fortunately) still have Ichiro, AJ isn’t as valuable to us as a corner OF. At least it’s a happy dilemma.
121, that is interesting, but consider this -there aren’t many teams in the AL that aren’t either battling us for playoff spots or below .500.
I’d count Boston, New York (they’re over .500) and Minnesota.
I agree we bought low on Guillen, but I don’t have that much, if any, faith in Bavasi being able to do that again. His track record shows that Guillen was an exception not the norm.
Which ‘type’ of free agent would Guillen be, if his option isn’t picked up? Would we get supplemental picks, or does that not matter if it’s a mutual option?
125: Disagree. There is nothing wrong with having two CF in the outfield.
129: Especially in Safeco and Safeco’s LF. Having Ibanez out there is killing what ought to be a team strength.
#48:
“any trade speculation post from here on out will be deleted”
Point of clarification: the post I made that got deleted was not trade speculation; it was to point out the idiocy of several callers to KJR. Not that it matters.
#63. You guys are hilarious. I need to proofread my posts rather than get quickly back to work….
What I meant in ‘whining’ about Sexson K’ing with Bases Loaded, was more an observation about All Players (M’s). Is there a study that says having a slumping or weak hitter (say..Ellison, WFB, ) just bunt the ball into play with less than 2 outs will provide better results than letting him hit away and likely strike out or pop out? It’s a defensive approach and definately Not CW. Just wondering….
Thanks for the proofreading.