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Frustrated? Yes
After yesterday’s meltdown on the mound, a lot of people expressed frustration with Felix, and rightfully so. He got mad that he didn’t get a pitch that he hadn’t been getting the entire game, and at best, he might get 30% of the time. In that instance, he was asking for the umpire to help him out, rather than just doing the job himself, and when he didn’t get that help, he caved, throwing a pair of bad pitches that essentially ended the game.
It was frustrating to watch. It’s the kind of thing that shouldn’t happen - not in a playoff race, not with our best pitcher on the mound.
But, reading through some people’s reactions, with comparisons to Freddy Garcia and predictions of a guy who will never live up to his hype, I realized that there’s still a need for some understanding of what Felix’s immaturity actually means for his development. So, the following is a list of performances by the 10 best pitchers in baseball today, as determined by me, during their age 21 seasons:
Johan Santana, Minnesota - 86 IP, 6.49 ERA 102 H, 54 BB, 64 K, 11 HR
Brandon Webb, U. Of Kentucky - 112 IP, 4.58 ERA, 123 H, 41 BB, 123 K, 14 HR
Roy Halladay, Syracuse (AAA) - 116 IP, 3.79 ERA, 107 H, 53 BB, 71 K, 11 HR
Jake Peavy, San Diego - 98 IP, 4.52 ERA, 106 H, 33 BB, 90 K, 11 HR
Ben Sheets, Stockton (A+) - 28 IP, 3.58 ERA, 23 HH, 14 BB, 28 K, 1 HR
Erik Bedard, Delmarva (A-) - 111 IP, 3.57 ERA, 98 H, 35 BB, 131 K, 2 HR
CC Sabathia, Cleveland - 180 IP, 4.39 ERA, 149 H, 95 BB, 171 K, 19 HR
Josh Beckett, Portland (AA) - 74 IP, 1.82 ERA, 50 H, 19 BB, 102 K, 8 HR
John Lackey, Lake Elsinore (A+) - 101 IP, 3.40 ERA, 94 H, 42 BB, 74 K, 9 HR
John Smoltz, Atlanta - 64 IP, 5.48 ERA, 74 H, 33 BB, 37 K, 10 HR
Now, I ask you, 24 hours after getting frustrated with Felix again, which of those players showed major league poise and composure at age 21? Only Santana, Peavy, Sabathia, and Smoltz were in the majors, and none of them were matching Felix’s success - Santana and Smoltz were downright terrible. Brandon Webb was struggling to get college hitters out, Roy Halladay was posting pedestrian numbers in Triple-A, and Ben Sheets, Erik Bedard, and John Lackey were all still in various stages of A-ball. Only Josh Beckett was having anything close to a great year, and he was doing it across three levels of the minor leagues. He did make four impressive end of the season starts… and then watched his ERA balloon up to 4.02 in the majors during his age 22 season.
Felix is ahead of every single one of these guys. All of them. At age 23, where Felix will be in two years, Roy Halladay posted the worst ERA in major league history for any pitcher who was allowed to throw more than 50 innings in a season - 10.67. He was so horrible that the Blue Jays sent him back to A-ball, had him start all over, and forced him to earn his way back to the major leagues. You think Felix is never going to get it because of his start yesterday - what on earth would you have thought of Roy Halladay in 2000?
Is Felix pitching as well as we all want him to? No, obviously not. Is he pitching as well as he’s capable of? No. Is it frustrating to watch? Of course.
But keep in mind that you’d have been frustrated watching any of the ten best pitchers in baseball at age 21, too. After a mass exodus from the Felix bandwagon yesterday, there’s plenty of leg room now. I suggest getting back on board and enjoying the ride, because Felix is still going to be a great, great pitcher - we may have assumed that he’d get there faster than he has, but that’s our fault, not his.
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Really, it speaks volumes about how good Felix is and how great he can be when we’re disappointed that a 21 year-old isn’t pitching like a Cy Young contender. The amount of expectations we as fans place upon Felix is enormous and that he has the potential to accomplish it all is amazing.
Felix is still the best pitcher in our rotation. Without him the Mariners have no chance to make the postseason. All we can do is sit back and hope that his maturation process comes together this season rather than next.
What happened to the too many fastballs theory?
It’s a shame there’s all this focus on Felix, when it didn’t really matter how many runs he gave up if the offense was going to go down without even a whimper. Not giving up five runs might have made the last four innings more meaningful, but realistically, Halladay pwned the M’s yesterday.
BTW, anyone noticed Raul Ibanez’ OPS since the break is .301?
(Yes, that’s O-P-S)
Is frustration even the right word?
I promised myself that I wouldn’t put my expectations too high for the kid, this year. I actually stopped updating kingfelixhernandez.com, because it was a drag typing in the results. I will not update it again until I feel things have settled down with hm, which I know they will.
Did anyone see the movement on his pitches in that game, though? Wow. Until the melt down, he had some sick stuff at times. There was one fastball not called a strike that started outside and seemed to jump back about 4 inches to hit the corner against a righty. He has the stuff, and I am not worried for now.
What happened to the too many fastballs theory?
Felix hasn’t given up a first inning run since he started mixing his pitches from the outset. No one ever said that fixing his early game pitch selection would cure all his problems, but it certainly appears to have cured one of them.
5 (Dave) - Not to mention, it doesn’t matter how well you mix your pitches when you leave a meatball over the plate to a fastball hitter who is down in the count.
Nice work on the comps Dave. I’m still excited every 5 days and every Mariner’s fan should be also.
I do understand the frustration, maybe even more then those who are jumping off. They may not even realize why they are so disappointed.
With our complete lack of extra base knocks, this team cannot allow the opposition to score any runs. When the pitching does allow runs, the whole team drops because they too know they are not a threat…yet.
Don’t be sad with Felix people, be worried about the guys with bats.
#2: How is adding context to Felix’s development incompatible with the notion that his pitch selection has been predictable?
It can be argued using Felix’s peripherals that he’s one of the top 5-10 starters in the american league RIGHT NOW.
Felix is an absolute monster and we’re not talking baby Godzilla here. He’s like late teens Godzilla before the nuclear tests pissed him off.
be worried about the guys with bats.
We have guys with bats?
In what way did the 21-year-old Sabathia not match Felix’s present success?
I was thinking about how, four years ago, I went to a game at Pac Bell between the Cards and Giants, and the Cardinals pitcher was this touted prospect everyone was high on.
And he got torched. Badly. Jose Cruz put one in the RF seats. In the second they pulled him after giving up 6 runs in 1 1/3. He looked like he was throwing batting practice in the second. And I kept thinking, this is a touted prospect? I’d hate to see what an untouted prospect looks like.
Four years later, that touted prospect returned to the same stadium to be the American League starting pitcher in the All-Star Game. You can argue over whether Dan Haren’s 2007 is sustainable or a fluke or aided by pitching in Oakland, but he’s pitching a heck of a lot better in season four than he did that July day in 2003.
And here’s the thing: He was 22 in 2003. Felix is 21 now and has much more raw talent than Haren.
Yes, Felix is young. But don’t development curves for different pitchers vary? Should we expect a similar amount of future progression for Felix, as based on Roy Halladay? Of course not, we’re dealing with a different animal here. Felix happened to reach a certain ability level (pitching in the majors) sooner than most pitchers - he’s an early bloomer.
The reason people look past his age in their criticisms is that his performance and development seem to have plateaued. Let’s face it, we set expectations super high for Felix. I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think that he’ll be better than all of those pitchers, just because he’s farther along at a younger age.
Personally, I think he’ll be in that group. I think FIP is pretty fair for Felix, because I believe a lot of his HR problems are his fault, and are correctable. And his FIP is still one of the best in the league. I kind of set myself up to believe that Felix would be a “new breed” of pitcher, setting all kinds of records and stuff. I think we’ve seen that that’s a little less likely now.
Well, I hope Felix can process simultaneously the several messages he’s gotten from his coaches and manager in the past couple of weeks — mix your pitches, keep your head in the game and don’t let your emotions rule — and get his act a little more together in the remainder of this season.
Sheesh, nothing like doing all your maturing/growing-up on the stage of a mound in front of thousands of adoring but sometimes frustrated fans.
11 - Agreed.
I was down at spring training 5 or 6 years ago and saw J.J. pitch a few innings. He was terrible giving up 6-8 runs in only a couple innings of work. I was thinking “who in the hell is this guy?” He is now doing okay for himself.
Lately it’s been one big inning.
That call to Rios should have been a strike, before he singled two in. Next pitch, the Glaus bomb. That’s 5 runs right there. Granted he’s wriggled off the hook plenty of times, but man, that inning really hurt especially given that call. That was a great, great pitch.
I didn’t see the game. Was the next pitch to Rios really a meatball? He got a ground ball which must have been what he was looking for…
Is there somewhere I can find who leads the league in Infield Base Hits Against (ie, how many infield singles a pitcher has given up.) Felix seems to give up an absurd amount of them.
Pitching usually peak in terms of SO around age 24, HR around 30. As a whole they tend to peak around 26, but there’s so much noise with pitchers, and their careers tend to work in plateaus, they sustain until they drop, and if they can still pitch, continue to sustain until they drop again. At age 21, barring injury, chances are he’s gonna improve.
By improve, I’m referring to his pitching skills, not his stuff.
Frustrated? NO!!!. Well, not on Sunday, anyway.
Failing to score against the Jays’ #5 guy and wasting a 4-hit CG from ours — Now THAT is frustrating.
Upon reading this morning papers, it seems Felix has learned from this. He appears to have taken complete responsibility. Time will tell.
As others have posted the bigger concern should be the anemic offense. Felix may learn what is necessay from this and be fine.
I only hope Felix’s loss of focus doesn’t over shadow the bigger problem. Lack of bats. Especially a left handed masher.
10 (Mike Snow) - Go back and read Sabathia’s line again. While he struck a lot of guys out, he also walked a lot of guys and gave up almost or more than double the HR than 8 of the 9 other guys.
Felix is on pace to have less than the 19 Sabathia did. Also, he’s on pace for 178K and 60 BB assuming he matches his 31 starts from last year (which I’m sure he’ll exceed, but will be more apples to apples to Sabathia’s IP).
So, I fail to see your point.
The pitch to Glaus was a meatball. The pitch to Rios looked pretty good.
I didn’t see the game. Was the next pitch to Rios really a meatball? He got a ground ball which must have been what he was looking for…
Actually, it was a pretty good pitch. It was a ground ball single between Beltre and Betancourt aided by the turf. I’m not sure it would have been an out on grass, but it was still a grounder. My point is that Felix shouldn’t of even had to make the pitch.
Now the pitch to Glaus, that was a meatball.
He looked ok up until the fourth (when I had to leave, planned on catching the rest later on MLB.tv)!!!
24 (Mr. Egaas) - It was not a good pitch. It was a fastball over the heart of the plate during a 1-2 count. Felix is was lucky to have only given up the two runs on that pitch, IMO.
Perhaps some of the problem is that people want to see or perhaps even expect to see Felix completely dominate right out of the gate. For example, like Doc Gooden (to whom Felix is often compared):
Age 20 (1985, 2nd season in majors) 276.2 IP, 1.53 ERA, 198 H, 69 BB, 268 K, 13 HR
Age 21 (1986, 3rd season) 250 IP, 2.84 ERA, 197 H, 80 BB, 200 K, 17 HR
Obviously, it’s a different game today than it was then, when the league ERA was 3.45 and 3.54 in those seasons, respectively.
Currently, Felix has the skills to completely dominate in that kind of manner (ERA+, etc). It’s really only a matter or time before he puts it all together and becomes a consistent Cy Young contendor. Perhaps we should keep in mind that sometimes we learn best from our mistakes rather than our successes. Gooden, of course, didn’t. I believe that Felix will learn from these experience in time. Right now, he’s a very good 21 year old pitcher prone to 21 year old mistakes, but within a couple of years, he’ll put it all together.
His stuff looked downright electric up until the walk to Zaun. It looked like he lost his focus or his feel or something starting there, and it went rapidly downhill after the non-call on the pitch to Rios.
And yes, the Glaus pitch was just a beach ball lobbed up there- bad curve or slider.
It sounds like he got his ass chewed by McLaren, which IMO means McLaren did two things right yesterday (not including benching Turbo!)- he went out and publicly supported Felix, then chastised him in private. Simple, but good management. Now, if he can just see the light and help convince BB that AJ needs to be in the lineup posthaste…
Carson, if Felix actually makes 31 starts this year (a tight fit, considering the time he lost to the disabled list), then he’s on pace to give up 20 home runs, or more than Sabathia did. And please don’t compare minor league home run rates to those in the majors, guys like this give up very few home runs in the minors because their stuff is too good for the hitters there.
Yes, Sabathia gave up more walks than Felix will. He also gave up a lot fewer hits. Essentially, it evens out and relative to his environment, Sabathia pitched just as well as Felix is doing at the same age.
He’s also ahead of where Maddux and Clemens were at the same age.
I am a bit shocked by the complaints about Felix. When I was 27yo I made a very costly $$ mistake at work. I totally lost my cool and was fuming at myself. Rather than getting composed I went right back to work and instantly made a second huge error. I grew up big time that day realizing the simple truth that we cannot carry the past forward or we will repeat it. Felix will learn or he will not. I do not know. But I’ll bet he will eventually.
As for our offense. For a number of years now it has been a fairly simple formula. Unless Ichiro is carrying the team, we do not score. Ichiro has been in one of him mini-slumps that he always gets. With this lineup we will continue to flail until he gets hot again.
I don’t think that you can blame the lack of offense entirely or even largely on Ichiro. As a team they only had 3 hits in each game. That’s not a formula for success.
Also, there’s nothing like a trip to Texas to cure your run scoring blues.
I’ve been astonished at the posts people have put up here in game threads jumping off the Felix train. It shows a complete lack of understanding of player development and where Felix should be right now, as you’ve very able shown in this piece.
All my frustration is on the offensive side. Even if Felix threw nine innings of perfect ball yesterday all he would have gotten was a big no decision. We’ve been getting very lucky with this offense since the break and pulling out some big wins against Detroit that we probably didn’t deserve.
Texas will once again pull the FO’s bacon out of the fire by making the team look like Murderer’s Row this weak…and nothing with change. Sigh.
32- Not blaming Ichiro. In fact doing the opposite. I was noting that we never seem to win unless he is hitting. Therefore I am crediting him for what little offensive success we do have.
Does comparing Felix’s stats to the age 21 seasons of dominant pitchers really mean anything? Correlation doesn’t imply causation. Just because he’s better that those pitchers at 21 doesn’t mean he will be at 27, and that he will automatically master every hurdle from now until his HOF induction.
Not that I think Felix is doomed or anything. I just think that his success at such a young age is no reason to ignore the fact that he still has non-trivial development challanges ahead of him.
Dr. Phil (for Asst. Pitching Coach) in ‘08!
Could we sign Felix now to a discounted rate? Buy out his arbitration years and add a discounted 3 year team option.
29 (Mike Snow) - Am I missing something? Sabathia was not in the minor leagues when he was 21, unless Dave’s reserach was wrong, which I’ll trust it wasn’t so there is no need to check. So, how I am comparing minor league stats to major league stats.?
Also, I was never super good at math, so hopefully you can help me understand how a guy who has given up 11 home runs through 17 starts is ON PACE to give up 20 with only 12 projected starts left.
Your help would be appreciated.
PS - 17+12 = 29, so you were correct about him not hitting the 31 start mark. I forgot about the injury.
I doubt the point was to say he IS going to turn into those guys, just that those guys had a mixed bag in their age 21 season, and they turned out OK. At least that’s the way I read it.
Carson: “…and gave up almost or more than double the HR than 8 of the 9 other guys.” That’s where you compared minor league home run rates to major league ones.
As for the “pace” of 20, that was demonstrating the effect of your assumption that he would make 31 starts. To put it another way, Sabathia gave up home runs to 2.49% of batters that year, Felix is giving up home runs to 2.48% of batters this year. Effectively identical.
Since people are frustrated with Felix, there is a possible solution that has just become available:
Joel Piñeiro was DFA by Boston yesterday!
I’m more upset about the leadoff walk than I am about the meatball to Glaus. The leadoff walk in the 5th is what really hurt him — followed by the Lopez brainfart.
You can’t blame the leadoff (four pitch) walk on an umpire’s call. Also, don’t forget, after the questionable ball call, Felix made a good pitch and got the ground ball which happened to find a hole.
The meatball to Glaus came after that.
#33 - Especially for the Rangers since Ho-Ram goes tonight…
Piñata, we have his left handed meat-balling twin stiking up our rotation already!
#42: I disagree. It was definately the meatball. Basically Felix made two good pitches to Rios with two strikes. One was just outside and as Dave said, while located well, nobody was getting that pitch and Rios did his job. The next pitch, Felix got exactly what he wanted-a groundball to the left side that unfortunately found the hole rather than turned into two. The meatball to Glaus basically blew the inning up.
Does comparing Felix’s stats to the age 21 seasons of dominant pitchers really mean anything? Correlation doesn’t imply causation. Just because he’s better that those pitchers at 21 doesn’t mean he will be at 27, and that he will automatically master every hurdle from now until his HOF induction.
No. It means that even if he’s as good as these guys it’s unreasonable to expect him to be consistently as good as they are now when they weren’t as good as he is at 21. None of them were as good as he was when they were 21. Almost nobody has been as good at age 21 as Felix is, meltdowns and all. What that should tell us is that making projections about him is very dangerous, because there’s really no good comparables to guide us. It’s easy to forget how early on the development curve Felix is, because at times he looks as good as any of those guys who have far more pitching experience and maturity behind them. And at times he looks like a kid who is just a couple years away from being a teenager and who is still learning the skills to be a major league pitcher. He’s both of those things, and we just have to accept some days we’re going to see more of one than the other.
Where would we be if we gave up on everyone who wasn’t already a world beater at 21?
I’m more frustrated in our offense scoring 0 runs in the last 2 games combined.
I’m not all that frustrated with Felix, yesterday’s performance was disappointing, sure, but honestly it’s not all that out of line with the way he’s pitched since coming back from the DL. I’m more frustrated with the continued hype for the kid. His first two starts were amazing, but since coming back, he’s been merely good, with occasional flashes of the brilliance we hope to see on a regular basis. I’m not all that hopeful that we’ll see it this year though. It seems like he’s going to need an off-season of recovery and work to return to that stud we saw in April. So for the rest of this season, I just can’t bring myself to get much more excited about a Felix start than any other start. Felix has a 4.52 ERA since his return, and the M’s have gone 8-6 in games he’s started since then. He’s had 6 quality starts in those 14 games. That’s not exactly bad, but Batista and Washburn have actually fared a bit better in their starts.
I don’t fault Felix for only being a decent pitcher this season at age 21 and after spending time on the DL. But on the other hand, I’m not going to get worked up over his starts and have unreasonably high expectations at this point either.
I agree heartily with the obvious statement that Felix is young and has a ton of growing to do. What worries me is that with the Ms starting his clock so early (and really, what else could they do?), that he’ll end up doing all of his growing-up for us and all of his dominance for someone else. If he’s a dominant 27-year-old for the Yankees (say) in 2013, it’ll be even more agonizing than watching his ’struggles’ now…
42 (Ralph Malph) - I agree. The uncovered first base incident would have irritated me greatly if I was in a pitching duel with a top-tier pitcher.
The consensus around here agrees with the Tangotiger analysis that bunts almost always lower the bunting team’s chances of winning. This is because the bunting team is giving up an out. Obviously, if you don’t make the opposition pay for their bunts, then their winning percentage increases.
In retrospect, it is not surprising that a 21-year-old would lose his cool over a teammates’ failure to execute basic baseball fundamentals (cover the base). If Lopez covers first base, Felix gets to face Reed Johnson (who owns an unimpressive .303 on base percentage) and has a pretty good chance of having two outs before facing Overbay. Felix then does not have to intentionally walk the bases loaded to face Toronto’s best hitter.
What is surprising is that Felix almost escaped anyway.
It is not Felix I am concerned with. It is the failure of the team to upgrade our offense with essentially free help. Once again it seems we are afflicted with “veteranitis.”
It sounds like he got his ass chewed by McLaren, which IMO means McLaren did two things right yesterday (not including benching Turbo!)- he went out and publicly supported Felix, then chastised him in private.
You know, I disagree about that to some extent, at least with respect to the public events. I thought MacLaren’s first responsibility there is to calm Felix down, not engage in symbolic dinner theater. Yeah, it was a questionable call and yeah, you need to support your pitcher. But unless you pull him off the mound, after you get thrown out he still has to calm down, focus, and get the next guy out. Having a little “Lou moment” doesn’t do that, it just winds him up further. Unless you really think it’s going to change the way the ump calls balls and strikes, or at least that it will get you a makeup call later, it all misses the point which is to win the game. I know a lot of people like these little dirt-kicking tirades but I’ve always found them tiresome and self-indulgent at best. And in that situation, where Felix was visibly upset and out of his game, it was detrimental. Yes, perhaps sometimes a rant like that can “fire up a team” but firing up was not what Felix needed, as subsequent events demonstrated. So if MacLaren can’t help himself, or he thinks there’s a larger point to be made by getting thrown out that’s more valuable, then he needs to make sure that somebody — Chavez, Beltre, Johjima — takes over his responsibility to calm down and focus his pitcher. People keep bringing up the issue of leadership and I’d suggest that was one example where it was lacking.
On the other hand, it was just one game, and perhaps getting the snot knocked out of his meatballs teaches Felix the strongest lesson of all. If this helps Felix better understand that he’s going to get calls he doesn’t like and he needs to have the self-discipline to keep his emotions in check and pitch his game regardless, then perhaps it’s a worthwhile outcome for the development of Felix as a pitcher in future seasons. But in this season, in a pennant race, it hurts — and I don’t think MacLaren (or team as a whole) handled the on-field events as well as they could have.
#48, he may never be that guy again. He needs to work on his control, but IMO he can still be good with what he’s had since returning from the DL.
PS, Triangle man was looking for you
Is the frustration more against Felix or more that he is having to learn this as the “ace” of our staff instead of as a #3-#5 starter on a team that has a real front line staff? Seriously…if we had a #1 and #2 and Felix could learn from this as a #3 - #5 starter I wouldn’t have any frustration with it (or maybe a little).
I guess my frustration is more with the M’s inability to sign/attract a front end guy and putting this type of pressure on a 21 year old.
Lets not forget also that this is Felix’s first time in a pennant race. He’s a 21 year old kid who is the #1 starter for a team contending for a playoff spot. I would much rather see him go through his growing pains right now and learn from these mistakes so in a year or two he’ll be truly a staff ace. It’s alot to ask someone who’s 21 to be the man, and it’ll take some time for him to pitch with this type of pressure. and I don’t think theres a much better way to learn some humility then to watch someone take your fastball and plant it way back in the seats.
People are upset with Felix, but the real problem were the 22 scoreless innings in a row
Now are problem will be how many touchdowns we’re behind when HoRam gets chased tonight.
Now OUR problem…
Oh well, however I spell, we better be ready to defrost the bats and put a truckload of runs on the scoreboard today
Mike Snow - I guess I’ll go back to the BB thing, and say that it seems Felix has a little better control, or perhaps just better stuff, at this stage.
Either way, I think we can agree that if Felix turns into Sabathia, it wouldn’t be a bad thing, no?
Perhaps what these stats best tell us is that Felix, whether we like the idea or not, might be best served by going down to Tacoma until he gets it consistently straightened out and can pitch to his potential in the bigs.
58 (Dayve) - I would like that idea, except we are trying to win a division here. And Bad Felix is still generally going to be better than three of our other four starts.
58 — What in the world would he have to prove in the minors? That’s ridiculous. He’ll learn, and learning at the big league level is the best way to do it. He learned a valuable lesson yesterday: Sometimes stuff alone doesn’t get you through. It probably would at AAA.
Everyone seems to think hes a bit of a headcase right now. What do you think sending him down would do? Not only would it probably mess up his head even more, but can you imagine how unhappy he would be? I’m sure he would remember that when the Yankees or Sox offer him $350 mil someday…
FIP 3.69 (9th in AL qualified)
xFIP 3.17 (2nd in AL qualified)
ERA 4.02 (19th in AL qualified)
ERA+ 106 (22nd in AL qualified)
That’s not the kind of pitcher best served pitching to helpless AAA batters.
(Thanks Hardball Times stats)
Felix is 9th in the AL in FIP at 3.69. Any talk of AAA is absurd. Whatever you think about xFIP, he’s second.
Heh, great minds…
The reason this happened was because of the offense - or lack thereof. Felix knew he was going to have to match zeroes and had a meltdown when he didn’t get the big call. What happended next was totally predictable - after all, he is just 21. If the offense was producing, odds are he would have shaken the call off and kept plugging away.
The real problems are Ibanez and Sexson.
For those that want Felix sent to AAA… who do you bring up for his spot? Feierabend? Did you see the Cin. and KC games? Felix at his absolute WORSE is still better then any of AAA guys on a good day
Felix was ready to pitch at a major league level much sooner that most other hurlers. Let’s take a look at this another way - here are the groups numbers after 60 major league starts (includes relief innings, so Santana’s and Halladay’s numbers will be a little off):
Name IP ERA H/9 K/9 BB/9 HR/9
Santana 518 3.94 8.1 9.3 3.4 1.03
Felix 378.3 3.97 8.8 8.3 2.8 0.93
Webb 366.7 3.29 7.7 7.9 4.4 0.71
Hallad 411 4.62 9.7 6.5 3.7 0.88
Peavy 355.3 3.93 8.7 7.8 3.5 1.22
Sheets 372 4.40 9.9 6.4 2.9 1.09
Sabath 339.3 3.87 7.9 7.4 4.0 0.80
Lackey 368 4.40 9.6 6.0 2.9 1.17
Beckett 346 3.43 7.8 9.5 3.4 0.86
Bedard 336.3 4.44 9.5 7.5 4.1 0.80
Felix looks pretty “upper tier” in this group. As long as he keeps his head together, he’ll be fine.
in fact, Halladay briefly talks about with Baker today
Anyone remember when RJ had his chat with Nolan Ryan, and then took off and became RANDY JOHNSON?
Yeah. Felix needs that chat.
69 - What if Freddy Garcia were the one to give that chat (as alluded to in msb’s link)? Ain’t that enough to give you the creeps?
It’s safe to say that a pitcher can usually play into his late 30’s and be effective, and a few even pitch into their 40’s. Take that into account and Felix still has 15-20 more seasons of baseball. There is PLENTY of time for him to learn how use his stuff in a way to consistenly get batters out. Granted he may not have lived up to the hype about him yet, but a certain CG 1 hitter on National Television vs. the AL East Leading Boston Red Sox showed that he not only has the stuff, but can shut down a top of the line offense when hes on. Anyone remember Josh Beckett being frustrating like Felix before he made the playoffs and threw a CG in Yankees Stadium to win the World Series? Lets ease off him a little…
What if Freddy Garcia were the one to give that chat (as alluded to in msb’s link)? Ain’t that enough to give you the creeps?
Well, that’s why you’d want someone who’s had longterm success at the HOF level to do that, no? And yes, I guess there’s a language barrier, too.
I get rather irritated by people who make Freddy and Carlos Guillen into Satan Incarnate, BTW. The M’s would be a measurably better team with Carlos Guillen instead of the Parade of Shortstops we had from 2004-2005, and Guillen and Garcia have contributed to two AL championship teams since their time in Seattle.
Garcia contributed to a World Series, too.
and FWIW, apparently Garcia has matured as a pitcher and a person, two things you want Felix to do as well.
Also, WPA for yesterday -
pitching: -.165 (Felix -.166)
hitting: -.335 (Sexson -.138)
Basically 2 to 1 the fault of the lack of hitting over pitching. That fifth inning sure looks ugly on the chart, though.
how? Chaves had already visited the mound– Mac couldn’t do anything but remove Felix at that point …
So what we learn from Geoff Baker is that Halladay learned to pitch up to his abilities only after he was demoted. I know it’s not popular, but do we want good Felix to arrive here one day and stay, or do we want him to lose confidence or injure himself trying to win games by beating his opponents over the head with his fastball and then sulking when it doesn’t work.
Obviously, he needs to learn how to pitch. Question is, does it serve the M’s better to send him out where he can learn in peace or force him to figure it out here and hope for the best. Do we want a Felix that is no better than a .500 pitcher with a 4.02 ERA? What makes us believe he can straighten it out here, when the Halliday story and the other ace starters Dave mentioned in his post were in the minors when they were his age, learning to pitch and growing up at the same time.
Also, Freddy is Felix’s hero. So, talking to Felix, regardless of Freddy’s skills, would probably be positive. Telling him to try things that maybe he wasn’t the best at, but knows creates success. Sometimes guys are better teachers/coaches than they are performers.
I’m not worried about Felix’s inconsistency or focus problems. Yes, it’s frustrating, but it’s not unexpected. Control problems are endemic to young pitchers - they just haven’t had the time to develop the muscle memory to always locate the fastball. Losing focus when someone else screws up (your teammates covering first, or the umpire missing a call) are also endemic to high-caliber young men. “Patience” and “Youth” are not well acquainted with each other.
What I’m more worried about is how the team reacts to it. Holding a 21-year old super-talent to a higher mental and emotional standard than established veterans is a recipe for turning the 21-year old against the organization and creating a real motivation problem, regardless of the industry. Felix is the best pitcher in the rotation. He gives the team a better chance to win than any other guy they run out there, and everyone, including Felix, knows it. He is the lowest paid of anyone in the rotation. Washburn, Batista, Weaver and even HoRam all make significantly more than Felix. Yes, yes, we all know that’s the way it works in baseball, and that Felix will get his payday eventually. But right now, he’s providing immense value-per-dollar to the team. If they hold him more accountable for screw-ups than guys making ten times his salary, just because he’s either younger or more talented, then he will need to be truly mature beyond his years to take it well.
Okay, I’ll give on the Freddy point. I just remember a lot of sulking from Freddy on the mound while he was an M. But I can’t say that I’ve followed his career after he left, so if he’s matured and figured things out in the meanwhile, then fair enough.
77 - what do you think Felix will learn from blowing away minor league batters? It seems to me that with his stuff, chances are he’d regress, at least from the point of learning to pitch, since he could just rear back and throw and get good results that way.
Halladay was sent back to single A after (during?) a season that he was posting a double digit ERA, a far cry from what Felix is doing now. He also had to revamp his fastball from a straight 4 seamer in the high 90s into the two seamer that he throws now. I think he also picked up the cutter (that apparently hurts his arm) in the second stint in the minors but I could be wrong. Could Felix benefit from some fine tuning of his pitches (particularly with respect to location and consistency)? Probably, but I don’t think he needs to go to the minors to do it.
I personally think we’re frustrated with King Felix not because he is underperforming to what we think his abilities are, or to the abilities of other great pitchers when they were 21, or whatever. The problem, at least for me, is we’ve been comparing him to some pitchers who were THE GREATEST at the same age of Felix. Just because he isn’t Doc Gooden in 1984 doesn’t mean he won’t be as great as we all think he WILL be. Some pitchers just have more poise and maturity when they’re young and plenty (Gooden) of them don’t keep the pace to complete an outstanding career. As long as he’s healthy and doesn’t keep any bad habits, he’ll still be the Felix we think he is.
Good Felix is already here.
Only our expectations dull the august hue of sunrise….
We are putting a lot of pressure of him, calling him our “Number 1 starter.” While I admit we don’t really have a #1, wouldn’t it be better for him to give it to some arbitrary player, like Washburn, just to take some of the pressure off?
Um, the Halladay comparison — being sent to A ball — isn’t even remotely a good one.
That guy was really screwed up. He was putting up historically bad numbers. He had all kinds of problems, both mentally and mechanically. Sending him down to dominate weak competition was the only way to get him back on track.
As shown by FIP, Felix isn’t even in that same ballpark. Let’s get real.
84
Um, OK then. Whatever you say.
This whole “#1 starter” business is just media phoniness. The team names an opening day starter, but after that it doesn’t really mean anything. The team doesn’t “designate” anyone as their #1 starter once you’re past opening day.
We don’t know who he’s talking to. We don’t know what he’s thinking. And I didn’t see a big meltdown from him yesterday after the bad call. I saw him leave a pitch up to Glaus. Was that the result of the bad call? I don’t know and neither do you.
Chill out, everybody.
That’s what the numbers say.
And realistically, Felix ISN’T going to learn what he needs to learn agaist minor league opposition. He has to take his lumps and learn what he can and cannot do…i.e., learn to pitch and not just throw.
Same thing with Adam Jones; what he needs to learn can’t be done at the minor leagues. What both of them need to learn to become major leaguers can only be done at the major leagues.
Ralph, what game were you watching? He came absolutely unglued. I don’t really blame him, but he did. Let’s face it. Not that it mattered with the bats so silent.
Dave (And Ralph, because I always like your responses):
Your numbers suggest that age matters. Okay – but what about experience?
Third years for all of the pitchers you mentioned above:
Johan Santana: 108 IP, 2.99 ERA 137 SO, 49 BB, 7 HR
Brandon Webb: 208 IP, 3.54 ERA, 172 SO, 59 BB, 21 HR
Roy Halladay: 67 IP, 10.64 ERA, 42 SO, 44 BB, 14 HR
Jake Peavy: 166.3 IP, 2.27 ERA, 173 SO, 53BB, 13 HR
Ben Sheets: 220 IP, 4.45 ERA, 157 SO, 43 BB, 29 HR
Erik Bedard: 141 IP, 4.00 ERA, 125 SO, 57 BB, 10 HR
CC Sabathia: 197 IP, 3.60 ERA, 141 SO, 66BB, 19 HR
Josh Beckett: 142 IP, 3.04 ERA, 152 SO, 56 BB, 9 HR
John Lackey: 198 IP, 4.67 ERA, 144 SO, 60 BB, 22 HR
John Smoltz: 231 IP, 3.85 ERA, 170 SO, 90 BB, 20 HR
I haven’t fallen off the Felix Bandwagon, but I also don’t believe his age is an excuse, nor do I think it is our fault for his under-performing our expectations. Major league experience should matter more than age, and - as you can see above - with the exception of Halladay, most of the players improved over time. I think his maturity should have improved as well by now, and I do think we need to hold him responsible for that and not pass it off as 21 year old shenanigans.
His potential hasn’t changed, and we do expect too much from him, but of all his current issues, his maturity is something that is his own fault. Not ours for expecting it of him.
I saw Felix in his last three starts in Tacoma before being called up. He was bored. He was undermatched. His focus would waver, he’d let a guy get on base, and then he’d wipe the floor with the rest of the batters until he retired the side — and all that without being allowed to throw his slider. He’s a better pitcher today than he was then. But he’s facing major league hitters, in high-pressure situations, in games that matter for a pennant race. That’s what he needs to learn to master to consistently be the pitcher he can be. He’d get none of that in Tacoma. Sending him back would make sense if he needed to work on his mechanics, or rehab an injury, or something technical like that. But that’s not what he needs.
I’m not sure that you can simply say “major league experience should matter more than age” as if it’s axiomatic.
A lot of what will help Felix’s mindset is more a function of life experience than of experience on the baseball field.
I was a stubborn, sometimes pouty kid still at 21, myself, and my occupation had nothing to do with that fact.
91 -
I still don’t agree with that argument. From a psychology standpoint alone, Age is still relatively arbitrary. And being a 3 year veteran and thinking it is okay to yell at the umpire or manager because you’re pissed is flat out wrong, I don’t care how old you are. If this was his first year? Okay. His 2nd? Maybe. But he’s been in the majors for three years and he needs to get over himself and learn to be a more mature player. If he was a more mature player and put up the same numbers, well, I’d blame that on the age, but until I see some maturity and growth as a professional player, I’m not going to accept that age is his only excuse.
Also, as pouty or stubborn as you may have been at 21, I’m sure you yourself can think of other people you know who were FAR more immature than you. What made you different from them? Probably your experience. I know 30 year olds who are more immature than anyone I knew at 21. Age and maturity are not synonymous.
91 (Jeff Nye) - I mostly agree with your statement. Except, you probably weren’t siting in a cubicle (or whatever you did) while 30,000 people watched and criticized your work.
But yes, I agree that he does need more life experience and coaching.
Regarless of the performances of others or the current standings, the pressure on Felix is magnified 1000 percent due to the lack of another top flight starter.
It is like having only one player that can hit a home run on the team and expecting him to hit one in every at bat.
Felix will do fine, he just can’t throw 9 inning shutouts every start.
Yeah, but we’re talking about relative maturity in the same person. That DOES correlate, I think….
And I think some people are still forgetting that this is just his second full season…
#77
You ask if we want a .500 pitcher with a 4.02 ERA.
What’s wrong with a 4.02 ERA? Not only is that BETTER than league average….but Felix’s peripherals show that he has had some bad luck this year and should be putting up an even better ERA.
95 -
That I will agree with. But even if it is “relative maturity,” it’s still immaturity. Whether we call it a character issue, flaw or what have you. It’s still his fault and not ours, even if it is out of his control to change it, and it does affect how well he will pitch.
92 Although I’m also skeptical as you over the whole Felix being only 21, but in your last comment your math doesnt add up? He’s barely been in the big leagues 2 seasons. 05 approximately 1/2 a season, 06 a full season, and 07 approximately 1/2 a season.
Dave, everything you claim makes sense, but I ask you this. When can we stop using the age excuse? I mean at this rate, I figure we can use the age excuse for approximately 7 or 8 more seasons, right? I can accept that I guess, because that’s better than “the hitters are just finding gaps” excuse that is so overused here at the mighty USSM.
Dave,
Why is Feierabend starting Tuesday in Texas? Maybe the Ms hitters will get well by watching Ranger hitters take batting practice against another 21 year old in the Ms rotation,I suppose.
99 -
Meh, For most of those other players, their “first year” was a short year too. Look at Dave’s numbers. Few of them had over 110 innings pitched and most were in the minors. if we’re including those as a comparison to Felix, we can also consider that his first half year hear counts as a year in the majors.
The “first year” in the bigs for most of those players was as short a year as Felix’s. Almost no one gets called up for a full year straight from the minors.
All the current frustration with Felix is a result of overinflated expectations. When everybody is here expecting the second coming of Dwight Gooden, you can’t really help but be frustrated when Felix pitches *only* like a mortal #3 starter.
Just goes to show that amazing stuff and velocity will only get you so far. The rest has got to be learned.
FYI - Adam Jones hit number 24 today.
Oh, and I think it would be silly to send him to the minors like Halladay. When Halladay was sent down he clearly couldn’t even get major league hitters out. They made distinct changes to his mechanics (lowering his arm slot for one) down there that helped pave the way for his current success. Felix doesn’t need any tweaks to his mechanics. He just needs to learn how to more effectively use his abilities.
Once you’re an effective major league pitcher like Felix is, you’re not going to learn anything new by pitching to minor league hitters, except maybe that you can throw a 2-0 fastball down the middle and expect them to whiff on it.
You know, referring to logical, well explained arguments as “excuses” does nothing to make me ever want to have any kind of conversation with you.
#104—
Same thing with Adam Jones.
He’s learning that it’s OK to strike out once a game if you punish the pitcher with a home run and and single the other two times at bat.
I watched that 5th inning meltdown by Felix and to be honest he allowed a umpire’s bad call to well make him lose his temper plain and simple.
I’m not upset with Felix except that he fell for a very old trick the umpires have used to get to young TOR type pitchers for decades.
I willing to give Felix a little slack cause of his age (21) and that he is still developing into the pitcher he will be.
However Felix will learned a hard lession yesterday one every SP worth being called TOR has had to learn and this includes Halliday,Matsuzaka,Haren,Gravine etc….. have.
NEVER let the UMPIRE make you LOST YOUR COMPOSER!!!.Pitch your game DESPITE it and you will succeed.
Well, that or he’s serving up meatballs that batters are pouncing on.
But that should change with maturity, as well….
He’s learning that it’s OK to strike out once a game if you punish the pitcher with a home run and and single the other two times at bat.
I wish Richie Sexson would (re)learn that.
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hahahaha, I’m not going to lie. I look at Santana’s numbers at age 21 and it’s hard to believe that now he’s the best pitcher in the game basically.
Not much to say here except this proves once and for all that pitchers don’t become great overnight, at least most of them don’t, it really does actually take a little bit of time.
Felix is going to be very good, you watch, he just may not be “King” Felix until he’s 23, 24, or even 25. Just be glad right now he’s way ahead of the curve compared to some pitchers his age.
With regard to the folks who are saying that age and maturity are not fully correlated, and so we can’t necessarily expect improvement in this category as he ages:
You’re right. We don’t know.
But neither do you. Saying he will not mature sufficiently with confidence is the same as saying he definitely will mature enough to pitch smart and be a perennial Cy Young contender. Either is possible, but neither is necessarily likely. For my part, since he’s only 21, I’m willing to relax and continue to believe that there is still a pretty good chance he will improve in this regard, for another year or two at least.
How much of people’s frustration with Felix has to do with the fact that he’s our only above-average starter? All of the teams ahead of us have at least two, removing some of the pressure when one is struggling. There’s a huge amount of pressure for the team to win when Felix pitches, because then it’s another 4 games of hoping balls are hit at the defense. I doubt Felix would be under such scrutiny if we has one other strong, above-average starter. That’s not something that can be fixed at the moment, but it’s probably something one should consider when considering their disappointment with Felix.
Well, I also think it would be nice if the front office learned that (cuz it’s probably why Jones isn’t up…).
OK, so assuming FIP is a reasonable measure of goodness, the #1 starters in the AL (the top 14 guys), run from Josh Beckett to Andy Pettitte, with Felix in the group at #9, just ahead of Johan Santana at #10. Boston has two in that group (Beckett, Dice-K) NY has two (Wang, Pettitte) and Oakland has two (Blanton, Haren) while KC, TB and CWS get shut out.
The “#2″ guys run from Vazquez to Boof Bonser (all of these are guys who qualify on innings, of course.) Washburn is in that group, #22 overall. KC, TB and CWS all get in this group, with Kazmir, Meche and Vazquez.
The next group starts with Contreras, with Batista right behind him at #30 overall, and ends at #38 with Steve Trachsel, after which there are no more qualified pitchers.
So basically, having three guys that have thrown enough qualified innings is a bit better than average.
Oh, and if you look at THT’s pitcher runs created, and look at all pitchers, JJ’s fourth at 73. Felix, Washburn and Batista are all in the forties.
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I guess my main point is what changes do you think Felix needs to make to be more effective at this level? Do you think Felix’s problems have been more mental or physical? Do you think he lacks the maturity and knowledge to be a successful MLB pitcher or do you think he actually has physical abilities that will improve in time (like fastball command)?
A little of both, but mainly the mental side.
Younger players (and probably especially pitchers) try to get by with just talent. Felix could probably overpower minor leaugers by sheer talent. He could pitch around those who he couldn’t.
Because of that, he didn’t learn some of the things that other pitchers learned about the craft of pitching (the strategic side). Not all pitchers learn in the minors, of course, but enough do that we’re seeing him learn on the fly.
So, riffing off of Dave’s mention of FIPs… is Jarrod Washburn the new Jamie Moyer?
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats/players/index.php?lastName=Washburn
http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/player/index.php?lastName=Moyer
I’m not seeing a lot of difference between ‘em as far as advanced stats go.
And the Tigers aren’t afraid to “fix it if it aint broke” calling up a player from the Hens to help their offense…one the best in the game…get a little better:
That’s the difference between having their GM and having Bonehead Bavasi as GM.
As different as night and day no question atrue contender is always looking to tweak the club to improve it get that extra run or that out etc….
The M’s would have a major upgrade both at the plate and in the field by doing two simple in house moves:
1)Callup Adam Jones to be everyday LFer.
2)Platooning Sexson and Broussard at 1stB and batting Sexson no higher than the 7th hole.
No offense, but Hessman would still be in AAA if not for Thames going on the DL. That is the only way AJ will get up here it seems.
I don’t think it’s just Bavasi that’s being stubborn…
And it’s also not valuing defense that much.
122: My bad. And technically he’s only going to be a backup 1B…not the everyday starter Jones would be.
My point still stands, though. The philosophy of a GM should be that if there’s a way to upgrade any aspect of your team quickly and cheaply, you do it…even if you’re on pace to win 110 games. It think Bavasi’s main problem is the failure to give LF defense at Safeco its proper value, followed closely by the fear of taking heat from vets that lose playing time.
I know it is probably true, but have the M’s ever said publicly they don’t want to rattle their veterans? Or is this just years of watching them be slow to pull the trigger over and over?
123 - I’d like to discuss that more in the game thread, if you’re going to be in there. I’m curious what you mean, but don’t want to go off-topic here.
On Felix… I’m a little sad that this post was necessary. There seem to be a lot of aggressive, resentful… let’s call ‘em fans, out there as regards Felix.
He seems to generate much more disgust than players who actually might deserve it.
Well, none of them deserve disgust, but people do seem to be far more satisfied with much, much worse performers.
shortbus - I agree with your point.
BTW, my seats are in RF at Safeco and as much as Raul is a pillar of salt in LF, Guillen may be the worst I have ever had to watch in RF. Is the fact that he is actually producing at the plate the reason he seems to be above reproach here?
Also part of the reason I expect, and I believe others do to, so much out of Felix is because we are now in a playoff race and we need an automatic win every 5 days. Let’s say he turns into King Felix in 4 years we could be at the bottom looking up again and his dominance won’t matter at all.
One thing I could do without ever hearing again:
Felix and Doc Gooden in the same sentence. It’s like having someone compare your brand new Porsche to your neighbor’s ‘67 Corvette that he totalled at about 12,000 miles on the ODO.
126- You had been watching Ichiro the last 5 years. His defense is below average and his arm can’t be counted on in the accuracy department, but the reputation of it keeps people from running most the time.
127: Won’t matter to us, maybe. It will matter to whichever NY team gives him $200 million to tear our hearts out.
129- And I have also been watching the oppositions RF’s for the past 15 years. I was not, nor would ever compare another RF to Ichiro. He should never have been in RF once Cammy left. However, the jumps that Guillen gets on balls is disgusting. He appears to have no feel for the flight of a baseball.
131- Guillen is a problem out there I agree, but I think you were right when you said that because he can hit(almost LHP only) that we need to move Ral and also cause the importance of LF defense.
I spelled it Ral on purpose he has lost his U’s in my mind.
I’ll tell you what the real problem is with Felix - he needs to spend less time shopping for cereal. Last week at Whole Foods (Bellevue) I passed him by in the cereal aisle, and then came back several minutes later and he was still hanging out in the same section. Didn’t see which cereals he chose, though.
132- Well said. LF in Safeco is way more important. I used to feel like Ichiro’s defensive abilities were wasted in RF. He is so much more valuable as a CF.
Overall, I get very frustrated when I hear mainstream media say we have a good defense. Ichiro and maybe Beltre are the only above average fielders that we have IMO. I know my opinions on Betancourt are colored by the fact that before he got here everyone kept saying he would remind us of Omar. He is not and will never be anything close to Omar in the field.
Special Backwards K?
Rice Check Swings?
umm…I got nothin’
Felix will be fine, games like that are lessons, hard lessons, but he will learn from it and come back better. The kid has potentially 20 years ahead of him of peak performance. Give him some time, he is the best we have, and maybe the best we have ever had once he get’s his head xcrewed on right.
I’m not really worried about Felix himself. I am, however, worried about that pitch to Glaus.
That was another one of those 88-89mph “something”s that don’t break, that have no movement, and no velocity. The same pitch that Termel Sledge jacked out of PetCo a couple of months ago. The same pitch that Josh Gibbons put off the Hit It Here Cafe in SafeCo last week.
I don’t know what that is. If Jeff Sullivan is right and it is the result of his new curveball grip / mechanics modification, then we have to be patient that he’ll figure out how to work that pitch in the future. If it’s not… well, I don’t know.
Santana getting Felix’d in Toronto, 3 runs in the first. And Luis Castillo just made and error so it could be more. Watching this makes me feel a little better.
105 Dave I don’t understand why you’re so thin skinned. I never referred to your explanation as an excuse. I even stated that I agree with your analysis and comparisons to other pitchers when they were 21. When I referred to “excuses” I meant when can we, Dumb Mariner fans who read your blogs like the bible, stop using his age as an excuse for his inconsistency? You and I both know that you’re too intelligent to include yourself into that group.
The pitch to Glaus was a slider that didn’t break before it got to the plate. That wasn’t the same hit-me pitch that he’s thrown earlier this year. That 89 MPH meatball is still a mystery. This wasn’t that.
It’s gotta be an overthrown changeup. I don’t know what else it would be, assuming Felix hasn’t started throwing a terrible cutter without telling anyone.
Or what Dave said. But still.
Jon Lester back from cancer and K’ing up a few Indians for us.
I’m confused as to how my post didn’t fit the thread. I was discussing Felix. I’m just curious why that wasn’t allowed.
140 - Pretty sure he wasn’t referring to Felix, but rather this:
“I can accept that I guess, because that’s better than “the hitters are just finding gaps” excuse that is so overused here at the mighty USSM.”
And I thought Dave’s repsponse wasn’t “thick-skinned” as much as it was “appropriate.”
MTV is killing USSM.
To those of you completely overreacting: do you guys freak out this much when one of your stocks or mutual funds has an off day?
I do not think people are freaking out. I had the misfortune of living with two Red Sox fans from 2002-2004. Those people freak out. Mariner fans merely wring their hands in concern in comparison.
134: I just hope he wasn’t raiding the supply on coco puffs ;D.
146 Thanks for the explanation, but it would have been better hearing it from Dave. Although I don’t ever recall Dave using that as an excuse, but I’m sure if he did, he probably had LOGICAL argument to back it up. I however have heard other people in here using that as excuse on more than one occasion. I’ll go back to conforming now Dave, every now and then I get out of line.
To those of you completely overreacting: do you guys freak out this much when one of your stocks or mutual funds has an off day?
For them, it’s more like “COME ON!!! The e-mail SWORE that SGN was going to hit $5 by the end of the week! It was SURE to rocket! That’s why I bought 10,000 shares at only 90 cents apiece!”
Although I don’t ever recall Dave using that as an excuse, but I’m sure if he did, he probably had LOGICAL argument to back it up.
I believe it initially came up with this game, where the Angels had three of the weirdest infield singles you’ll ever see.
Dayve is saying what I’ve been saying: the M’s aren’t doing Felix any favors by forcing him to learn at this level. He’d be much better off out of the spotlight in the minors. (I note most of the pitchers on the list in the original post were in the minors at this age.) The other issue, that I’m not seeing addressed, is his poor mechanics. It would be truly horrible if Felix blows out his shoulder at a young age and never gets to have a career at all. That’s the other reason I think he should be in the minors; he could work with the coaches on improving his mechanics (and his pitch selection, and emotion management).
Actually, I think the exact opposite. He’s not going to learn any technique or strategy if he always has the option of rarin’ back and blowing them away with sheer talent. And that means he’s going to be learning it in the majors, because he CAN’T learn it in the minors, spotlight or no.
Like it or not, Felix is a major league pitcher. His days as a prospect are long gone.
I’m not sure how this is even an issue at this point.
Wait… people really want to send Felix to the minors? For reals?
Dayve is saying what I’ve been saying: the M’s aren’t doing Felix any favors by forcing him to learn at this level. He’d be much better off out of the spotlight in the minors.
For the millionth time, no. Honestly. It’s like telling a child prodigy that he has to stay in school until he’s 18 before you’ll let him go near a college campus. Eventually, he’ll run out of things to do in high school.
The other issue, that I’m not seeing addressed, is his poor mechanics. It would be truly horrible if Felix blows out his shoulder at a young age and never gets to have a career at all.
You mean like Tim Lincecum’s poor mechanics, with all those hitches? And yet, no one will suggest that he’s a disaster waiting to happen.
You just don’t know with pitching mechanics. Some kids with perfect mechanics at 18 end up with frayed labrums at 21. Some kids with gawd-awful mechanics end up with major league pensions.
Leaving Felix in the minors to “fix his mechanics” is silly when they can be fixed at the major league level, and if he blows out his arm in Tacoma you still don’t have him in Seattle. Leaving Felix in the minors because “he has more to learn” is dumb because the minors has nothing left to teach him that can’t be taught at the major league level.
And one more thing: You send him to Tacoma until September, you’re effectively conceding the season. Without Felix, you’re hoping that Baek can come back better than before or that Feierabend can suddenly become a consistent major league pitcher.
Sending Felix to languish in Tacoma is far, far dumber than leaving Adam Jones to languish down there.
Just stop the meme.
Re 148:
To those of you completely overreacting: do you guys freak out this much when one of your stocks or mutual funds has an off day?
Define… off… day… because… maybe… yes… just… possibly… maybe…
All pitchers, min 400 batters faced, through age 21, since 1957, sorted by OPS+:
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/3V29
Felix is 54th out of 182 pitchers
However, I prefer this list (since 1901), sorted by K/BB ratio:
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/hMTD
Felix is 8th behind: Clemens, Sutton, Prior, Gooden, Blyleven, Saberhagen, Vida Blue.