Trade Roundup
Update: Octavio Dotel to Atlanta for Kyle Davies. Winner? The Mariners. Thank you, John Schuerholz, for saving us from ourselves
A quick recap of what’s happened so far, leading up to tomorrow’s deadline.
Brewers acquire Scott Linebrink for trio of arms
I like Doug Melvin a lot, but he paid for what Linebrink was and not what he is. None of the guys he gave up are world beaters, but neither is Linebrink. Useful relief arms come cheaper than this. The key will be to see whether he gets classified as a Type A free agent and if the Brewers receive a couple of draft picks after he walks at seasons end – if he does, and they do, then the Brewers win this one.
Indians acquire Kenny Lofton for Max Ramirez
The classic deal that makes sense for both teams. Lofton gives the Indians some more depth in the outfield and improves their 25 man roster for a playoff run, while the Rangers get a guy who I like a lot in Max Ramirez. He’s a pure line drive hitter and could develop into a very solid player in a few years. The definition of a win-win trade.
Phillies acquire Tadahito Iguchi for nothing
Okay, Michael Dubee actually exists, but he’s a minor league reliever and not a particularly impressive one. Iguchi’s not having a great year, but he’ll help the Phillies, and he cost nothing. I never thought I’d utter these words, but nice trade by Pat Gillick. Prepare for armageddon.
Devil Rays acquire Dan Wheeler for Ty Wigginton
A blase veteran reliever for a blase veteran utility player with two guys going from one non-contender to another. This trade couldn’t matter any less.
Braves acquire Mark Teixeira for Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus, and others
A total home run for the Rangers here. Teixeira is a good but not great player, and in return for a year and a half of his services at not-bargain rates, they extracted one of the best young catchers in baseball, a very high upside middle infielder, and reportedly got a couple other players of value. A+ for Jon Daniels. Teixeira won’t help the Braves as much as they think he will, and the upgrade from Salty to T-Rex isn’t worth the price they paid. But John Schuerholz is pretty close to being beyond reproach, so that’s all I’ll say about that.
Phillies acquire Kyle Lohse for nothing
The end is near. Pat Gillick makes two trades in the span of a couple of days, both times acquiring a guy with at least some potential to marginally improve his team and gives up nothing of value in either move. My world has just been thrown upside down.
Mets acquire Luis Castillo from the Twins for nothing
Remember the Ray Durham heist the A’s pulled off a few years ago, where they got two months of a solid player for nothing of consequence, then got two draft picks when Durham left as a free agent. This is the 2007 version of that. Terry Ryan simultaneously made his team worse now and in the future and got fleeced by Omar Minaya in the process.
M’s yet to make a move
Huzzah. There’s no one out there I want. I could offer up a big post on why J.P. Howell would be a really nice addition to the club, but he’s not 34 and injured, so I won’t bother.
Comments
USSM uses and recommends
I’m pleased to see Gillick make good moves.
If even he can learn, then there’s hope for the M’s front office as well.
And I increasingly agree, the names that are supposedly available are either no upgrade over what we have now, or would cost too much in talent, or both.
The only move I want to see is BRING ADAM JONES UP ALREADY YOU YAHOOS.
Let’s just hope the last ‘move’ stays that way.
How about this guy?
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=444836
Can BB fleece the Indians?
The Indians are calling Laffey up to replace Cliff Lee in the rotation. So no.
I’m pretty much estatic about the two Phillies deals. As for the M’s, BB trying to pry loose every starting pitcher not available has obviously backfired. Although, the Wand-Rod for Clement package was about the only thing I could’ve gotten excited about and possibly made any bit of sense.
You missed an “a” in Salty’s name there Dave. I was confused why he wasn’t coming up in the baseball cube… Saltalamacchia.
Dave says:
“Huzzah. There’s no one out there I want.”
And I say huzzah to that. Everybody is waiting for Adam, but I want to see Wlad get his shot with this club too.
I was wondering if Lohse would have been an upgrade over HoRam?
If we coulda had him for nuthin’…
It’s a shame the Rangers are going to be better next year.
5-
Backfired? How so? We don’t need any of the TERRIBLE pitchers who are available. And that seems to be the only type that are on the market. Standing pat at this year’s deadline would be one of the best moves Bavasi ever made.
Lohse belongs in the National League. He needs to face the pitcher every few innings to survive.
8-
They still can’t pitch or play defense. I’m not worried.
Any chance Kenny Williams gave Iguchi to Gillick cheaply because of how poorly the Freddy Garcia deal worked out for the Phils? Do some GM’s have unwritten codes of ethics to prevent burning bridges with other GM’s?
If the Braves let Teixeira walk at the end of the season, they get a couple of draft picks too. Which may even the pot a little, though it sounds like they gave up a lot. If they think it gets them to the top of the NL East this year, though, it’s a classic net present value tradeoff.
So, is this the trade speculation thread? If so, can we do so sanely? Nobody is giving the M’s anything for Sexson. Or for Vidro. Balentien won’t fetch anything of value by himself. The M’s have plenty of bullpen arms and don’t need any more. Just about any starter that has been whispered to be available has numbers no better than HoRam had last year, and the M’s have already paid for one such player (in every sense). Nobody’s giving the M’s a great player for nothing of value in return. Please think before you post. Thank you.
We should all be happy that the this is a “bad” deadline year. The pitchers that are available are both awful in terms of their more obvious stats as well as their skillsets and peripherals. Imagine the farm system gutting that would ensue if there were aging, over-the-hill veterans out there who had “better” track records then the clowns we’re looking at now?
Teixeira isn’t a free agent at years end, and if they weren’t planning on locking him up to a long term deal before he can walk after 2008, they wouldn’t have given up Salty.
8, I don’t think that trade makes the Rangers better next year. Two years for sure, though.
I am keeping my fingers crossed for a SP, but unless it is Garland or Vazquez then I hope Billy stands pat.
I’m less sure of this than your other points.
5 Re-read that one again buddy. I said trying to pry pitchers who are NOT available. I’m not in favor of trying to force something that doesn’t make sense.
If it wasn’t for Dontrelle Willis, Jon Garland would be the most overrated pitcher in baseball. Contact flyball pitchers = blech.
The Rangers may be “better” next year but they certainly won’t be “good.”
Wlad really belongs in Coors, or Minute Maid, or Tropicana, where his RH pull will do the most damage. I’d love to see the M’s pull off something with Tampa, given the depth of young talent they have, but that would be an off-season, long term thing not something that would help the team now. And I don’t see any way to make the pieces fit. Hey, maybe they need a veteran leader to gell the team around?
Teixeira isn’t a free agent at years end
Oh, right, just 4 years of service. I was looking at his current contract expiring at the end of ‘07 and didn’t notice that doesn’t result in FA.
I was curious why most of the rumors floating were about the M’s acquiring bullpen. Perhaps, they’re serious about sending Morrow down once acquiring someone. In turn, stretching him out in time for September.
Saltalamacchia seems to be hitting pretty well in his second season at AA (309/404/617), does it seem likely that he’ll end the year at AAA for the Rangers? Or is Laird bad enough that Texas might make him a September call-up?
Salty’s been in the majors for two months now. He’s going straight to Texas, not passing go, and collecting a lot more than $200.
As Salty has been in Atlanta for a few months, I think it’s doubtful that he’s going down at all. Looks like a slightly similar situation as the one he was in in Atlanta, but maybe they’ll actually play him full-time somewhere.
God, waiting in dread hoping nothing will happen is worse than waiting hoping that something will happen.
If you’re rooting for something to happen, if it doesn’t, you’re at least right where you started.
Rooting for nothing is worse because anything that happens is probably going to make us worse.
Trade-wise, of course. Internal moves are obvious to everyone but the guy who has to make them.
At this point I have given up hoping Bavasi makes the moves and can only hope he gets fired.
Today would be an awesome day to do it, too. When the the last time a GM got fired with 24 hours left on the trade deadline?
Right around the last time someone asked a question as inane as that one.
I’m not sure I understand the logic that says “because there is no decent SP available, we must then shore up the bullpen”. If the FO beleives that a trade must be made to improve the team before the deadline, and refuses to accept that anyone but a proven veteran can push the M’s to a playoff spot, who says it has to be a pitcher? If they won’t move anyone up or down within the organization to improve on offense, then why not a replace one struggling veteran hitter with another who is hitting better? If our prospects are going to be pissed away, I would rather they got dumped for an old guy we could use then on an old guy we can’t.
Is Salty going to go back to catching? Or stay at first?
I ran over here to see if anyone else had heard this horrible, horrible news that MLB is reporting:
“The Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported that two sources said Seattle is close to acquiring reliever Octavio Dotel from Kansas City in exchange for Minor League prospect Wladimir Balentien. The Seattle Times, meanwhile, reported that they may be interested in Al Reyes from Tampa Bay.”
Has anyone else heard anything about this? It seems like you all haven’t since no one has said anything. Maybe that’s good.
Teach me to miss the last line of the hitting stats. Seems to be doing alright for himself at MLB too.
I’m going to go back to hiding in my corner now….
because we don’t have any of those…
31, yeah it’s been reported, but it was more recently reported the Braves were going to end up with Dotel. I wouldn’t worry too much about it.
Scraps: would you consider Octavio Dotel to be “something of value”?
Hard to fathom Standing Pat actually making two decent trades within the course of 72 hours or so.
Meanwhile, that noted nuclear physicist Dick Fain on KJR just inferred (in so many words) that AJ for Dotel might be worth a look…YEEECCCHHH!!! >:(
Most Mets fans aren’t in favor of the Castillo deal, even though we did get him for nothing. He’ll likely be a Type B (Durham was A), so there will be a 1-2 sandwich pick.
The reason Mets fans don’t like the deal is that Castillo is a crappy player. He’s basically Juan Pierre Lite: no power, way overrated defense, fast-declining speed that he’s never utilized efficiently anyway (career 70% SB%), etc. Willie Randolph will put him in the 2-hole, where he will hit weak ground balls and never display any power. He displaces Ruben Gotay, who is not great defensively but is hitting .350 and slugging over .500 (in a relatively small sample).
ah, radio callers.
“they jack up ticket prices year after year and sit on their hands come the trade deadline … the fans need to demand they bring people in for our ticket prices”
If we could get Dotel/Gagne relatively cheaply, think how devastating our bullpen would be. Talk about shortening the game. Green in the 6th. Sherrill in the 7th. Dotel in the 8th. Putz in the ninth. Game over.
Caveat: I don’t think we can get Dotel/Gagne cheaply. (And I wouldn’t want to part with Jones/Clement for Dotel.)
Caveat2: I recognize we don’t need to upgrade the pen.
Caveat3: Value of the deal goes up for the M’s if they would be entitled to 2 draft picks when/if Dotel walks at the end of the year.
The talk in Philadelphia is that Kenny Williams gave Gillick Iguchi for basically nothing to make up for the trade of an apparently injured Freddy Garcia in the offseason. It was a make up deal (and the White Sox had decided to move on from Iguchi in the offseason anyway).
I just heard about Lohse here, so I don’t know any details about that yet (except that Lohse is a pretty crappy pitcher, so Gillick shouldn’t be giving up anything for him).
Long story short, Gillick is still the same guy whose offseason pickups were Adam Eaton, Wes Helms, Rod Barajas, and the injured Garcia. His inability to pick up or develop any relievers along with those horrible players has left them giving Jose Mesa important innings right now – in a pennant race. Pretty impressive work. He’s just as terrible a GM as he was in latter Mariner days.
Since when did Octavio Freaking Dotel become a “game over” pitcher?
39 – I agree. We don’t *need* to upgrade the pen now.
And we definitely don’t need a GM as inane as BB deciding that he’s going to make a trade just to make a trade. With this piddling amount of no-namers being traded, there’s no reason for Bavasi to throw his hat in the ring.
Besides keeping Wlad with the M’s keeps Felix happy and if Felix is happy, then I’m happy.
“
actually what the PI said was: “The Mariners are making a strong push at Kansas City with the hope of prying loose reliever Octavio Dotel in the next day or so, two baseball sources said.” and “A couple of baseball sources are saying the Mariners have expressed reasonably serious interest in Octavio Dotel of the Royals.”
Not that I’m 100% in tune to the internal goings of the M’s, I believe the M’s contingent in KC was there to watch a different P. To be more specific, it was a Japanese P on the other team.
If Bavasi thinks we need another 8th inning reliever, I know a guy from the Braves who might do.
Maybe Atlanta would accept HoRam in return?
40 Don’t forget Greg Dobbs off of waivers, too. He turned out kind of useful didn’t he?
Since when did Octavio Freaking Dotel become a “game over” pitcher?
He’s not, but I think you would have to agree that he would strengthen the bullpen. (We may not need him, but he would be a net positive.)
His K rate is great this year. (Then again, so is Morrow’s.)
My only point was that adding Dotel (while probably a bad move overall) would make a good pen that much better.
So, seriously, what really are the only options regarding moving Sexson?
It seems moving him in the offseason for low level prospects or riding out his contract and getting a couple draft choices.
Dave, the only pitcher that has been rumored available that I have any interest in (at the right price of course) is Willis. I think he would be an upgrade over HoRam and Weaver. Do you not like him? What did you think of his performance vs. the Giants the other night. He seemed to have added motivation and really spiked it against Bonds.
That kind of personality would be useful in a playoff race.
Remember the Ray Durham heist the A’s pulled off a few years ago, where they got two months of a solid player for nothing of consequence, then got two draft picks when Durham left as a free agent. This is the 2007 version of that. Terry Ryan simultaneously made his team worse now and in the future and got fleeced by Omar Minaya in the process.
Castillo had a .252 EQA last year and a .252 EQA this year. When Durham was acquired by the A’s, he had a .290 EQA, and gave the A’s a .276 EQA after the trade. Durham was also a lot healthier than Castillo, who is always a question mark on day games after night games and desperately needs to stop playing so many games on artificial turf. I don’t really see that comparison holding water.
Castillo’s defense is also highly overrated at this point. He’s got good range to his left, but up the middle he is average at best. Given his knee problems recently, it also stands to reason that his range isn’t what it used to be.
As far as the future goes, it’s quite possible that Castillo won’t even be a Type B free agent at the end of the season. There was about zero chance that Castillo was going to re-sign with the Twins (again, thanks to the turf and his injuries.) They have the next closest thing to Castillo with Alexi Casilla in the minors. I’m not convinced that Casilla can replicate Castillo’s batting totals, but he can probably be as good on defense and cost $5M less than Castillo in the process.
The Twins just aren’t contending this year with the crap that they are putting in 4 of 9 lineup spots every night, so I don’t see how this would really hurt them in the short term. I also don’t see the Twins getting compensation for Castillo signing elsewhere or see them re-signing him. Even if the Twins got nothing for Castillo, I don’t really see it mattering that he’s gone.
I’m with Dave. As soon as I read Dotel’s name, I thought “Why would they even bother?” I hope this doesn’t turn into some kind of “symbolic” trade where Bavasi is “showing the fans” how much he wants this club to make the postseason.
Yeah, that’ll show us. An unnecessary mediocre middle reliever. I can smell the World Series already.
49. If we buy that, then we want the kind of personality that has been checked out all season, and magically dials it up for one game? No thanks.
Dave,
Your assessment of Garland seems a bit harsh to me. His K rates are indeed bad, but his control has always been good, and he avoids the longball pretty well while playing in a bandbox. He is very durable, signed for just one more year, and in his prime. His groundball rate is consistently around 48%, so he’s not an extreme flyballer. From all appearances, he seems to be a better, younger, more durable Jarrod Washburn . . . certainly not a #1 or #2 starter, but a good # 4, and a large improvement on HoRam. If people think he’s an ace, then I’d agree he’s hugely overrated, but I don’t think people believe him to be an ace, and no one in Chicago thinks he’s in Buehrle’s class, for example.
From where I sit, he’s one addition I wouldn’t mind seeing, even if the cost is Wlad. (This assumes we’d get a couple of draft picks in two years when he left.)
Out of curiousity, why in the hell would anyone be advocating adding a relief pitcher when they have one of the deepest bullpen’s in the majors? One guy is awful (Reitsma). The rest of the pen has been solid and Lowe has just returned and there’s another guy in AAA waiting for a shot (Kam). Don’t listen to the radio or newspapers. The M’s bullpen depth isn’t the problem. The problem is the management of said bullpen.
I for one am rooting for a positve buy by the M’s. Not a desperate move but something to improve the squad. I always root for activity on this date, and believe you should always be able to improve your team.
Now we are interested in Dan Wheeler. The only way I approve is if we give next to nothing in return and it means Reistma being DFA’d.
28 – That’s exactly the point. And it would just make it that much more awesome. I’m calling Howard, we have to make it happen.
A trade deadline to remember.
Willis has all the warning signs associated with a terrible pick-up:
– A good season that everyone still remembers (thereby creating the perception that he is more valuable than he actually is)? 2005, check.
– Declining strikeout rate? 6.47, 6.45, 6.01. Check.
– Rising walk rate? 2.09, 3.34, 4.00. Check.
Conclusion: Stay away.
52: It happens all the time. A good player is not motivated by his sucky team and a management team content to be sucky…get’s traded and finds new life in a new situation. Randy Johnson did something like that once. Went 10-0 after being traded to a contender.
Not saying I would want to go all out after this guy…but I think his skill level is better than HoRam and Weaver and would be an upgrade. “For the right price” (this is the key part) I would do it.
the only moves the M’s should make:
obviously promote Adam Jones and move him to LF.
Put Ben Broussard at 1B full time.
Trade Richie Sexson and cash considerations for some fringe minor leaguer.
DFA Bloomquist or Ellison.
Have Raul Ibanez platoon at DH with Senor Doubleplay.
60 – People have been saying the exact same thing here for weeks.
Joser: No, Dotel is not something of value, but just because the Mariners are willing to trade Balentien for something of little value doesn’t mean they couldn’t get more for him if they knew what the hell they were doing.
52: It happens all the time. A good player is not motivated by his sucky team and a management team content to be sucky…get’s traded and finds new life in a new situation. Randy Johnson did something like that once. Went 10-0 after being traded to a contender.
Funny you should mention that. Jeff Sullivan’s just launched a post discussing something along those lines…
Joser: No, Dotel is not something of value, but just because the Mariners are willing to trade Balentien for something of little value doesn’t mean they couldn’t get more for him if they knew what the hell they were doing.
Whatever your view on whether the M’s need Dotel, it is absurd to say he is “not something of value.” Yes, he has been injured over the last few years, but pitchers with his K rate don’t grow on trees. Teams are willing to give up value for him. He clearly has value.
1) Dave — I agree on Dotel not being a “game over” pitcher.
2) 40: Re Kenny Williams…if that’s true, it wouldn’t surprise me. It seems he has a history of delivering “damaged goods” pitchers, in fact (see: Sirotka, Mike>Blue Jays for Wells, David, 2000-01 offseason).
59 – I agree that Willis is an improvement over Weaver. ANYBODY is an improvement over Weaver.
59: Even if you believe in the magic of motivation and all that sportswriter hoo-hah, I don’t want a guy who isn’t motivated all the time. I want guys who make the team good, not guys who ride a wave when it’s there and can’t be bothered when it isn’t.
We are using different definitions of value. I’m talking about whether he’d help us win, not whether other organizations might make mistakes like we do to get him.
I actually would be a fan of seeing a big post about how J.P. Howell would help the M’s.
Would it be a positive move to trade Richie Sexson or AAA player (not anyone named AJ or Wlad) for the ability to experiement with Dontrelle Willis and see if the change of scenery helps him out? It seems to me people here have said we couldn’t “give away” Sexson.
Dotel’s Baseball Reference page is sponsored by the Oakland Committee to Impeach Octavio Dotel who state that:
“Our stance is that Octavio Dotel is the worst closer of alltime and a disgrace to the Green and Gold. September 23, 2004 – the day the 2004 season really ended for Oakland”
61….I was reinterating the fact. Oh yeah I’m one for getting rid of Reitsma. I’d like for the M’s to make a move for Chad Cordero of the Nats.
Why would the Marlins trade Willis for Sexson?
All these people who continually advocate trading Sexson: who on earth would want him? A bad player with a horrible contract, where do I sign up? Sadly, the only GM incompetent enough to trade for him already has him…
68: At the risk of this devolving into a semantic argument over what the word “value” means, you can’t seriously be saying that Octavio Dotel wouldn’t help this team win, can you? Of course he would.
Having said that, the problem that many people have with the idea of a Dotel trade is that it would cost too much and deliver only a marginal upgrade to what is already arguably the best part of our team, the bullpen.
So, bottom line: Octavio Dotel has value. The Mariners should not trade for him. These things are not mutually exclusive.
58: So you would rather stay with HoRam?
- One good season NOBODY remembers? Check
- Barely any strikeout rate? 3.56. Check
- Walks…well HoRam is pretty good at not walking anyone but thats because they’re too busy hitting anything he throws over the plate! BAA: .329 or WHIP: 1.79.
Why stay away when he’s definitely an upgrade. You can even look at his G/F ratio climbing (this year at 1.75.
Again…for the right price…I take a chance.
For power from the first base side? Project for a project? Their 1B has 3 home runs. Richie has a few more than that. Maybe the change back to the NL would help Sexson? It was just a thought…
#74: That makes no sense because nobody was complaining that we signed him originally. At the time, many agreed it was something we had to do. We all knew he’d fall off the cliff, statiscally, but to fall this far is hard to watch.
but I think you would have to agree that he would strengthen the bullpen
No, he would weaken it, because then Dotel would be used in the 8th inning instead of Green or Sherrill, and both of them are better pitchers.
Unless of course you’re saying that he’d be used instead of Reitsma (who is, unaccountably, being used instead of G & S), in which case, sure, he’d strengthen things. But that’s kind of a bizzaro way to get better – trade for guys you will mis-use less disasterously.
FWIW, Willis would be an upgrade over Ho-Ram — but at what cost?
Also, good points on him, 58. Judging from that game he threw against the Giants Saturday night, he clearly wasn’t the “D-Train” we once saw.
Arm issue, perhaps?
#34– per Rosenthal, “The Braves, Indians and Dodgers are the three finalists for Dotel, sources say.”
#44–FWIW, per the Post: “Seattle created a stir Thursday when it had several scouts in Kansas City for the Yankees-Royals game. Speculation was the Mariners were looking at Kei Igawa, but they were there to see Octavio Dotel. “
The notion of trading Sexson is particularly illustrative of the M’s inability to correctly evaluate talent. The time to unload such a player is not when he is having a terrible year, and has no cover (e.g. injuries, playing for bad team) but rather when he is tearing it up. But the FO will never dump a bad player when he is playing well, and when he is playing poorly (far more often) they can’t get value for him so they are forced to swallow his contract. The Marlins would be taking advantage of just such a misjudgement by the Mariners if they parted with Willis, and the same would be true of the White Sox for either Garland or Contreras.
Joser originally said that Balentien alone couldn’t be traded for something of value. I mildly disagreed. What we both meant by this, in context, was something of, you know, good value: worth giving up a good prospect for. The rumor about trading Balentien for Dotel came up. Joser asked me if Dotel had value, implying that the rumor supported his point. I admitted that Dotel was not what I had in mind by value, and said if the rumor was true it was more a function of the Mariners’ incompetence than the value Balentien could actually fetch in trade. MarinerDan then objected that of course Dotel had value, because teams were demonstrably willing to trade value for him. Now Cynical Optimist is pointing out that Dotel has value because he would contribute something to helping the team win (though I think he is being more optimistic than cynical there, since I doubt he’d contribute as much as a fraction of a win over anyone whose innings he replaced).
To sum up, neither the “value” that MarinerDan or Cynical Optimist speaks of is the kind that I took Joser to mean. God knows I could be wrong.
I’m going to lie down now.
Since you don’t allow trackbacks, I have to post this link in this fashion. I wrote a small bit on my Rangers site about your remarks on the Teixeira to Atlanta trade:
http://www.rangerfans.com/archives/2007/07/reactions_to_tex_trade.html
Hmm…so what you’re saying 82, is that the M’s should unload players that are doing well? That will certainly help them get to the post season. I can see where you’d want them to be doing well..but we all knew Sexson was never going to hit for average. And he is on pace for his usual 30+ HR’s especially with his tendency to get hot towards the end of the season.
…nobody was complaining that we signed him originally
There are a lot of posts on this site alone about why this was a bad idea at the time. If you search for them you can read things like:
“If to look good and impress fans now the team is signing players who will cripple the budget in 3-4 years when the team comes around to contention, they’re doing harm to the franchise”
and:
“He turns 30 years old next month, already possesses old player skills, and has an abnormally large frame. Even a healthy Sexson would be expected to begin his decline shortly.”
#74: That makes no sense because nobody was complaining that we signed him originally. At the time, many agreed it was something we had to do. We all knew he’d fall off the cliff, statiscally, but to fall this far is hard to watch.
That just makes no sense. Seriously. I can’t figure out what you mean. Were you really responding to #74?
Also, plenty of people thought it was a very bad signing at the time.
78: Actually writers here identified Sexson as a bad gamble before he even signed with the Mariners.
Here’s Dave’s free-agent preview piece on Sexson from November 2004: http://ussmariner.com/index.php?p=2034
85 – No. I said that we should be unloading BAD players when they’re doing well, becuase that’s when we will get the most value for them. If Sexson were having a better year (say the .264/.338/.504 34 HR year he had in 2006) we would want to keep him for the rest of the season to help with a stretch run. But after the season, would the M’s trade him for younger, more talented players? No. We would inevitably sign him to a multi-year extension and he would promptly continue to decline in performance. We are always on the wrong end of these kinds of trades.
Ah, Dotel’s off the table, thank god.
Unless Schuerholz is packaging him… (sorry)
90. source?
91: Yes for HoRam because he wants him back sooo bad ;D… sorry.
Oh, I just read the top of the OP. Dave, source?
Well, now. Looks like we still need to worry about an Al Reyes trade.
94: CNN/SI whatever they want to call themselves is saying the Dotel trade happened.
Sorry they said “pursuing” Dotel
Again…for the right price…I take a chance.
Of course you would take Willis if the price was right (e.g., Vidro and Huber). That’s not the point.
My point was that Willis is the type of pitcher who teams inevitably give up too much for because he was once (at least perceived to be) good.
Don’t you think Bavasi missing out on Dotel may lead him to be even more desperate and make possibly a even worse deal?
99-I didn’t want to say that out loud
I don’t see how anyone could be that upset about not making a deal for Octavio Dotel.
It’s kinda like not winning the lottery. Oh well, whatever….
I do look forward to Aug. 1 and the end to trade speculation, but I will regret the inevitable whining from local media about the M’s not doing anything because they are too dumb to realize that not doing anything is smarter than picking up bad pitchers. The M’s already have solid depth in the bad pitching department.
101-not a single soul here is upset…i think everyone of legal age just opened a beer in celebration
Morgan Ensberg’s available. Does he have options left. He’d look good in a Rainiers uniform…
A couple of questions about the write up:
Is it really all that certain that Salty is one of the best young catchers in baseball? I’m not sure it’s a given that he can play a major league catcher defensively. If he can be passable but not that great, then he’s really just a poor man’s Victor Martinez(Pecota thinks he’s only a 2 win bat). If he can’t cut it defensively, then he’s really just a league average first baseman with platoon splits who probably plays below average defense.
Second question. Just looking at Wheeler on paper, why is he blase? He’s shown make ‘em miss ability with pretty good command. Granted he has flyball tendencies with some pretty severe platoon splits as his slider isn’t nearly as intimidating to lefties as it is to righties but overall he’s been a pretty effective set up man. It seems like he’d improve alot of pens around the league.
I’m sure Morgan Ensberg would represent one of the most expensive players in Tacoma Rainiers history. Why on earth would we want him?
Uh, Salty is 23 my friend. You wouldn’t take a 2 win switch hitting catcher at the age of 23?
I guess I’m mistaken. I thought if he clears waivers we can negotiate a different contract. I’m assuming he clears waivers.
ARGH
What the deuce? Wlad for Dotel? That would be ludicrous. And Wlad>>Davies, so thanks Dayton Moore with your Atlantian ties.
22 sorry!
To sum up, neither the “value” that MarinerDan or Cynical Optimist speaks of is the kind that I took Joser to mean. God knows I could be wrong.
Exactly. I originally started writing something where I conceded Scraps could be right and I could be wrong (that Wlad couldn’t bring anything of immediate value to the Mariners), and went on to note it all depends on how you define “value.” Then the Dotel speculation started, so I just reduced it to the pithy line I wrote. Obviously Dotel has some value. We’re all little snowflakes, valuable in our own way. If you were starting a team from scratch, sure, you might want what Dotel offers; ditto if your bullpen’s been coughing up leads or decimated by injury. But in general you want to trade from excess to fill a need. The M’s arguably have an excess of young RH outfielders, so trading Wlad for something makes sense. But they also have a strong bullpen, so trading for more bullpen help doesn’t make sense. Dotel, or any reliever, has less value for the M’s than he would for teams with weak bullpens. Which is what I meant when I said you couldn’t get anything of value for Balentien by himself: what the M’s need is starting pitching, and Wlad alone doesn’t get them their.
Other things like payroll and age can factor into the value discussion too, of course. Wlad plus Jones is considerably cheaper than Ibanez plus Guillen, so if you’re a team that plays home games anywhere in the state of Florida that likely trumps any other calculation of value based on ability. Likewise, if you’re planning for the longterm, and not being GM-on-the-hotseat for this season only, you might value high-ceiling kids a little more and declining veterans a little less.
And in any trade you also have to consider the opportunity cost: you don’t just lose Wlad, you lose anybody else you might’ve been able to trade him for instead. By trading him for Dotel you don’t get to package him for something else, now or later. Which is fine if Dotel is The Right Answer, but he’s not for any question the M’s should be asking.
Morgan Ensberg’s available. Does he have options left. He’d look good in a Rainiers uniform…
Watch Beane take a flyer on him as Chavez/Piazza insurance. Nah, nevermind, they’re out of it. Beane will probably just keep his poweder dry.
Even though the Wlad for Dotel didn’t go down, I’m pissed that Bavasi offered him…someone needs to cut the phone lines wherever that jack ass is.
Yay! No Dotel. Now, if McLaren and Bavasi could just wake up and realize they have Dotel-level arms three deep in the bullpen….
Would it be a positive move to trade Richie Sexson…
Oh just stop. No really, all of you stop. The only way the Mariners could trade Richie Sexson is if they agreed to pay almost all of his remaining contract or acquired a similarly paid near worthless player than no one wants. And if the Mariners are going to pay Sexson, they might as well keep him around.
I can’t believe the Braves-Rangers trade. Over two months the difference between Saltalamacchia and T-Rex has to be pretty small.
Lord people, Tex is NOT a free agent after this year. That is the reason Texas got such a wealth of talent for him. He is a free agent after NEXT season
I’m increasingly with Dave.
I’m surprised there haven’t been any wild Griffey trades posited here yet.
Let’s not forget that we, like all fans, have a tendency to overvalue our own prospects. From Snelling to Fruto to Nageotte, we cried bloody murder whenever any of them were involved in trade discussions. How did they turn out? Not a one of them is likely to have a major league career.
I’m not saying that we should give Wlad away for some magic beans (or Dotel), but let’s remember that Dotel is a proven commodity (not one we may want, but still).
It looks as though the Reyes speculation will be over before it’s started:
http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2138297,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=5
Sorry, I couldn’t resist that….
Reitsma to DL.
Apparently, Reitsma’s been placed on the 15-day DL.
Imagine that!
Let’s not forget that we, like all fans, have a tendency to overvalue our own prospects.
Actually, the usual criticism leveled towrads me is that I intentionally downplay the value of Mariner prospects in order to make myself sound smarter. Or something. I’ve never totally understood the argument, but it’s a pretty popular one. Over the years, I’ve had to explain many times why Jose Lopez wasn’t the next Miguel Tejada, why Bryan LaHair isn’t any good, why Jeff Clement’s rebound might not be sustainable in the majors, etc…
link?
Reitsma goes down with a nasty case of suckitis again, eh?
Or is it just hemophilia?
Actually, the usual criticism leveled towrads me is that I intentionally downplay the value of Mariner prospects in order to make myself sound smarter. Or something. I’ve never totally understood the argument, but it’s a pretty popular one. Over the years, I’ve had to explain many times why Jose Lopez wasn’t the next Miguel Tejada, why Bryan LaHair isn’t any good, why Jeff Clement’s rebound might not be sustainable in the majors, etc…
That is true, Dave. I think you generally have a very measured view of our prospects. The same is not true of a lot of other folks around here. I think it leads to both an overvaluing of our prospects and an undervaluing of the worth of “established” players around the league.
That being said, please don’t confuse my point as a piece of advocacy for acquiring the Dotels or Willises of the world.
Who have the M’s called up to take Reitsma’s spot on the roster?
Who have the M’s called up to take Reitsma’s spot on the roster?
I will explode if the answer is “Julio Mateo.”
According to KJR Reitsma went down and Rowland-Smith came up.
127-
Hopefully it’s Adam Jones!
Hey Dave,
Just checking out the transactions (looking for Reitsma to DL), I noticed that in the Lowe shuffle, we transferred Sean White from the 15 day to the 60 day DL. Given that he’s a rule 5 guy, is there some kind of additional scrutiny required to make sure he’s not just being hidden?
Does half a year on the DL still count as far as keeping him goes?
Damn M’s! Bring up a positional player once, just once, this year! And do it before September please?!
I would like to add my plea that we cease and desist for the calls to trade Sexson. I mean really, most of us who read and reply to this blog are just casual fans who only know just slightly more about Baseball than the average fan. If we know how craptastic he is, don’t you think most MLB GM’s know this as well. We couldn’t move him for a ham sandwich right now.
Has Double R-Smith been down long enough to be called back up? Or does an “injury” allow him to come up prior to the usual requisite amount of time needed to stay in the minors before a recall?
Given that he’s a rule 5 guy, is there some kind of additional scrutiny required to make sure he’s not just being hidden? Does half a year on the DL still count as far as keeping him goes?
There’s no scrutiny when it comes to roster moves. MLB just ignores this stuff. 90% of all rule 5 picks get “hurt” at some point during the season, because the rule states that they only have to spend 90 days on the active roster to meet the requirements. He’s spent 58 days on the roster so far. If the M’s activate him on August 30th, and keep him active through the end of the year (which is easy thanks to the September roster expansion), he’ll have exactly 90 days on the major league roster.
Funny how that works out, huh?
I’m well aware that there is nothing of value to be had for Richie Sexson, but as a “project swap”, what type of equally-awful-contract player would we be looking at? I totally agree with Dave’s analysis on the inability to get anything of return for Richie, but I’d also think there are other GM’s in the same position where a change of scenery trade may help.
What are the types of players/contracts we’d have to take to dump Sexson?
#107: I’m aware that Salty is young. That said, catcher is a premium defensive position. It’s not one where I’d trade a two win bat for lousy defense. That was the motivation behind my question. Is his defense really good enough for his bat to really be a two win advantage or would a good deal of that advantage be given back?
Salty has a ton of hype but alot of it centers on his bat and begs the question that he’s ready to catch in the majors. Guess I’m not begging the question but rather actually asking it.
No, they can’t trade Sexson. But they could platoon him. As McGrath’s TNT story (linked above) noted, the Angels series will be against three RHP starters. Broussard should get more than a PH a game. And he definitely should get it playing 1B (please, no more Broussard in the outfield!)
Yet another case where Vidro’s presence hurts the team: if the DH slot was available, you could put Broussard there (or Ibanez and bring up a certain…. oh, nevermind).
I wonder if Reitsma’s “injury” could be contagious? Can we have him breathe on Sexson?
I’m fine with Mr. Hyphen coming up again (especially with the Simpson’s movie in theaters). Anybody but Mateo. Which makes me think: there’s always one worst reliever, the guy you least want to see coming in when it’s not a blow-out one way or the other. I hereby call all such bottom-of-the-bullpen relievers “a Mateo.” As in, “the game was tied but then the A’s sent out their Mateo to give up some runs.” Or, “You’d think they’d try to battle back instead of bringing in their Mateo to throw in the towel.” Reitsma was the M’s Mateo. As long as we never again see the epynonymous one, I’ll be happy.
Tejada for Sexson, Betancourt, Feirebrand or whatever
Broussard takes over 1B, Jones gets called up to take up one of the roster spots
M’s send Reitsma on the 15 day DL. YEAH!!
They’re bringing up Ryan-Rowland-Dinglehiemer-Smith.
No…wait…that’s a child’s song.
…uh…no, sorry. That’s Jonathon Jacob Jinglehiemer Smith.
Oh well, at least they got rid of Reitsma.
#138
See, that’s why this is such a great place. You’re never going to see the word “eponymous” on any other baseball blog.
or in 138, for that matter
139-
Dreaming a bit too much?
“This song was going to be called Crap Rap 13, but now it’s going to be called Stop Mithering”
Would you? Please?
What are the types of players/contracts we’d have to take to dump Sexson?
Carl Pavano?
Dave, do you think all the roster stuff is silly? Should teams be allowed to have whoever they want up and stop all this DL shuffling silliness?
I keep reading about the Mets and Mariners are after Mark Loretta. Mets got Castillo. What do you guys think of Loretta? I’d welcome that addition
#140 – DUDE! It’s JJJ Schmidt! Not JJJ Smith! What grade school did you go too?!?!?
#142
Heh, I guess my brain repaired the typo automagically.
148 – Schmidt, Smith, Putz, Puts. You say tomAto, I say tomato.
Point is Rietsma’s gone.
147 – Mark Loretta? Really? You want Mark Loretta? To do what?
#135
Wow, Dave, that’s like bistromath.
do what? hit the freaking ball. He can play every infield position and HES’S AN UPGRADE OVER JOSE LOPEZ who sucks so much
where did u read the M’s were after Loretta?
M’s might be after Dan Wheeler, too
Lopez “sucks so much”? The guy has like 3 errors on defense, has some pop and until July was driving in runs with clutch two out hits.
Would now be the appropriate time to plead for a Griffy trade? I kid, I kid.
Uh, guys, read the comment guidelines. This isn’t a place for discourse worthy of nothing but a text-message conversation.
153: I appreciate your enthusiasm and your aptitude with capital letters. But if you would prefer Mark Loretta to Jose Lopez you’re not going to enjoy the USSM experience very much.
Er, Griffey that is
For this year its a perfect addition. Next year? Go with Jose Lopez
I love you dude.
Oh my Lord it’s gone off the rails again.
There must be no bugger on the PI Blog anymore.
.263/.296/.374 sucks so much
Just leave them alone and maybe they’ll leave.
Dave, this does bring up a point about which I have been curious. At what point does a player’s reputation for a skill set give them a perceived value greater than their demonstrated skill set?
We see it often on the old side of peak, but this can happen to slow starting prospects as well.
Dave,
If the M’s lose the series 2-1 or 3-0, the chances of us making the playoffs are slim to none, correct?
Just leave them alone and maybe they’ll leave.
Famous last words.
Have you made adjustments for park and league yet? And didn’t you forget the slugging percentage?
*sigh*
no, he had the /// in there, you left it off.
Do you know Willie Bloomquist has now come full circle?
Bloomquist in 2002: 455/526/576
Bloomquist since the ASB: 462/500/538
I’m sorry to report that means he will explode into a cloud of green vapor shortly before the game tonight.
As a big-time Mets fan, I’m very happy today. Very, very happy. I now wonder where Gagne will end up – I’m guessing Tigers, if anywhere. And I’m happy that the Mariners haven’t pulled off a big ugly. (Yet.)
Dave, I know what you think of one young, talented Rays pitcher (J.P. Howell), and I’m curious what you think of James Shields. He’s been inconsistent this year, but is still young (25) and has great stuff. I believe that within a couple years Shields will be a solid #2-type starter.
Ah, got it….wasn’t clear what his point was….
Shields is the new Brad Radke. Tampa’s not trading him.
Sexson – It seems that Bavasi is unjustly getting heat on the Sexson signing.
IIRC, at the time of the Hargrove signing, the Ms were still pursuing Sexson and Delgado. Grover told them to forget Delgado, and go after Sexson only. They did.
It seems that Bavasi was merely carrying out someone else’s directive.
Reyes (See # 119 and # 120). Things ould be worse. You could have dredged up Cananea.
mlb > MLB – Supposedly an optioned player must stay down there for ten days. But, if there’s an injury–there always is–the 10-day requirement does not apply. [It seems that a while back a player--KC's Ibanez, I think--played the first game of an MLB series, got sent down, and was called back up in time to appear in the last game of the MLB series.]
it seems like Reitsma is thinking about retirement
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/119084.asp
Grover told them to forget Delgado, and go after Sexson only. They did.
It seems that Bavasi was merely carrying out someone else’s directive.
I like to give my bosses directives as well. They seldom are carried out, however.
Sexson – It seems that Bavasi is unjustly getting heat on the Sexson signing.
IIRC, at the time of the Hargrove signing, the Ms were still pursuing Sexson and Delgado. Grover told them to forget Delgado, and go after Sexson only. They did.
It seems that Bavasi was merely carrying out someone else’s directive.
This isn’t accurate. The M’s wanted Delgado, made him a big offer, and he just dragged his feet, so they moved on to Sexson. They were determined to get someone to take their money that winter, and weren’t willing to let everyone get off the market while waiting for Delgado to make up his mind.
176.. Nope, surgery for Reitsma.
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/119093.asp?from=blog_last3
In response to the news posted in #31, here’s what Larry Stone had to say earlier today:
The Mariners have been monitoring the Devil Rays with two scouts this weekend, including Norm Charlton, their former closer who is doing special-assignment scouting for general manager Bill Bavasi.
The 37-year-old Reyes, who broke into the majors with Milwaukee in 1995, has had a career resurgence this season, after missing virtually all of 2006 following Tommy John surgery.
Reyes has 1-1 record and 4.50 earned-run average in 38 games, with 17 saves in 18 appearances. Reyes has struck out 43 in 38 innings while holding opponents to a .193 average. He has not had a save opportunity for a month for the struggling Rays.
However…
On July 26th, he pitched 1.0 inning (4 hits, 4 runs [1 HR], 1 K, 2 GB outs) On July 28th, he pitched 2.0 innings (1 hit, 1 walk, 3 Ks, 1GB/2FB outs: 44 pitches), his worst outing of 3 since being on the DL in early July.
The “news” today on him sez: “Jul. 30 : After throwing a season-high two innings on Saturday, Reyes was unavailable for Sunday’s game, reports the Tampa Tribune.”
I hope Norm Charlton had the brass balls to report back to Bavasi, “We just put one injured pitcher on the DL, why would we trade for another?”
180 – maybe the sherrif was scouting kazmir…
Of course I’m not saying Al Reyes is injured right now, but boy oh boy does he ever have the potential to be another Reitsma. I’m just saying Norm Charlton should go back to Bavasi with that report…
The D-Rays trade Kazmir, the fan attendance at Tropicana would drop to 3 digit levels. Isn’t he the one line of pitching defense they have against the big bopper clubs in that division?
Well, Shields was outperforming him last I checked, but whatever fans they have left would probably revolt. A guy can dream though…
#178– yup. I believe the only player move associated with Hargrove is his choice of Everett from the infamous list of ‘left-handed sock’
174 – Maybe a Brad Radke who gets more SOs. Never really thought that the Rays would trade him anyway.
Now that Reitsma is having season ending surgery I’m sure it will be deemed necessary to trade the farm for a veteran reliever.
apparently pregame Mac voted for not giving up someone who can help you in the immediate future for a month or two of someone else …
um, is Wheeler really blase?
Good for Mac! Glad to hear he’s smarter than Bavasi. But then again, so is a monkey.
I believe a deal is in the works involving Sexson and that deal is with the NYYs.The M’s get LHP Kei Igawa straight up for Sexson and the Yanks accepting his remaining contract.
Also I see the M’s maybe picking up Wheeler from the D-Rays for a low price say Rivera/Reed/Mateo.
After that the remaining improvement will be inhouse:
Callup of Adam Jones to play LF.
Broussard the regular 1stB man with Ibanez as the backup at both 1stB/3rdB with turns at DH.
Put Vidro as platoon DH with Ibanez and as a switch hitting PH off the bench.
Trade or DFA Ellison and callup Balentien to replace him as 4thOFer and also DH duties to rest both Ibanez and Vidro.
#191
Dood, you forgot , no?
#191
Dood, you forgot [satire][/satire] no?
(stupid, stupid html…)
Bearman, do you have any factual basis for that at all?
Or is it just something you decided sounded good?
[shift keys are located on the left and right of your keyboard]
Bearman possesses no punctuation, grammar, or facts. Taken purely as entertainment, he can be amusing. But mostly you should ignore him, like any other middle-schooler.
[Yankees]
#191- Please be right, please be right, please be right…
The Yankees are willing to eat a huge posting fee for the priviledge of dramatically overpaying Sexson?
Ya…and mercury IS good for you…..
we might not be out of the woods on Dotel yet …
The Mariners are still not out of the trade deadline woods yet. From Geoff Baker’s blog:
“I’d still lean towards picking up Al Reyes to work the eighth and from what I hear, that potential deal is still in-play, with Jeff Clement’s name being tossed around plenty.”
Apparently my spelling/grammar wasn’t perfect in the last post, so I’ll reiterate.
191- So you’re suggesting that the Yankees are willing to eat the 27 million (not sure on the exact details of it, something like that) they would still be obligated to pay Igawa -and- assume Sexson’s contract, in order to swap a rookie SP with potential for development for a washed up Richie Sexson who is not playing like a major league player period?
I would really like to get my hands on whatever it is you’re smoking.
I hate Al Reyes even more than I hate Dotel.
At least the D-Rays probably won’t want Wlad.
/gag
The best trade for the Mariners right now is no trade at all, and instead interior movement. Sadly I don’t think that will be the case due to all of the hype and travel expenses. We’re going to be taking on yet another 35 year old who is going to tank in exchange for one of our hottest prospects, just because Bavasi promised he would be making a move. Make a move in AAA you jackass, not in the trade market.
Steve Phillips, failed Mets GM, just said about an hour ago on BBTN’s “special” on the trade deadline:
(paraphrased) “ANY team that has any hope of going forward into the playoffs that doesn’t make some kind of deal, even if it’s a tiny insignificant deal, is going backward compared to the other contending teams. Example: the 2001 Mariners. They stood pat at the deadline, and it killed them. Say a contending team’s clubhouse, like that of the 2001 Mariners, is comfortable and everyone’s playing well together. Sometimes injecting a little discomfort into the clubhouse by introducing a trade-deadline teammate brings new life to the team, and they play better going forward.
Any MLB Front Office asks the players to give 100% throughout the season, and making a trade move at the deadline shows them that the Front Office is also doing all it can to ensure success. “
Oi. He may be right in that specific instance, but it’s certainly not advice that should be taken under ALL circumstances.
“failed Mets GM”