Jones and role-playing
Hi all.
There’s been a lot made of what the team intends to do with Adam Jones, who is awesome, and whether they’re going to play him all the time, some of the time, never, or what. McLaren’s made some comments, and whatever.
Here’s the thing: what McLaren, or Bavasi, or anyone, says about the team’s plan should be discarded immediately. The only thing we should pay attention to in the next few weeks is when Jones actually plays, and how he does.
We know a couple of contradictory things: McLaren’s been spouting about how little he intends to use Jones. But despite McLaren’s comments, they didn’t call Jones up to play him once a week, or use him as a defensive replacement to carry the destroyed legs of Ibanez/Guillen. McLaren’s clearly also trying to manage the veterans, who haven’t been hitting or fielding, as best he can, which would prevent him from exposing plans to fit a full-time player in the roster. And yet the team’s trying to get into the playoffs for the first time after years of entirely unsatisfying play, and if Jones is playing well and clearly helping them at that, they’ll play him even if the plan really was to have him play twice a week, which it isn’t.
We’ll see. Jones did well last night, so they’ll probably throw him another start as soon as they can figure out a pretext to do so (rest someone on Sunday, say) and then if he’s still on fire, they’ll throw him playing time in Baltimore. His path is obviously made clearer if he’s tearing it up, and then McLaren will go in front of reporters and say “What can I do, the kid’s made a spot for himself, everyone likes winning,” and shrug.
You don’t have to have faith or lack faith in the front office at this point. Complaining about playing time they haven’t had a chance to not allocate to him yet isn’t useful. Let’s wait and see how this plays out, and we can dissect the statements later.
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McLaren said Jones will play center Sunday, Ichiro to DH
Gil, that’s not funny.
I read that also Gil, but we shall see. I think that if raul does not start hitting at the level or even close to the level he is capable of, then i think we will see alot more of jones out there in left field, which by all means i have no complaints.
Sounds like McLaren is handling this well. The Times reports that “he’d spoken with some of his players, including Guillen, about Jones and let them voice any concerns.” And later last night, “Guillen told Jones in the clubhouse Friday, ‘You are family, now.’”
Sounds to me like he’s doing one of the few things managers need to do well.
We’ll see. Richie has almost played himself out of a job, they have the option of moving Vidro to first and Ibanez to DH and/or platooning them .
Yeah. I dunno why people are complaining about this. It’s what a good manager HAS to say.
If the vets respond well, no problem. If they don’t, well, he gave them every chance to do well—which is all a player expects from a manager.
Gil – McLaren said that in yesterday’s pre-game press conference. Instead of someone else taking Ichiro’s spot on his “day off” Jones will take that while Ichiro goes to DH for a day.
5, can Vidro play acceptable first base?
DMZ – Good comment, right on target. We need to have a little patince and see how playing time for AJ works out.
#7 Also the morning papers revealed that the team is concerned about Lopez’ stamina. They are reminded of his swoon late last season and are planning to give him some rest. The article went on to say Vidro will start at 2B Sunday, Jones in CF and Ichiro will DH.
8: Per the Seattle Times Vidro’s gonna be getting some of Jose L’s ABs at 2b, which probably frees up Raul to DH and Jones to play LF.
1 & 3 – Read that too, as glad as I am to see Jones CF while Ichiro gets a little rest at DH, I’m kind of worried about Vidro playing second sometimes though. Maybe Vidro won’t be that bad in the field…
Here’s a link to Geoff Baker noting that Vidro will play second for Lopez when Jones takes over in CF so Ichiro can DH and get a rest.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2003821199_marinotes04.html
“Here’s the thing: what McLaren, or Bavasi, or anyone, should be discarded immediately.”
DMZ, I think you’re missing a verb there.
I’m not sure if Vidro can play 2B as well as he needs to. We’ll see I guess. It would be great if he could take over at 1B somehow, although I don’t think he’s ever played the position (not that it’s all that complicated).
One thing is for sure, Sexson needs to sit for a while. A long while. Anyone can hit .087 just randomly swinging at pitches.
Raul has been banged up all year. Here’s hoping that he can get healthier (and therefore more productive) from the added time off.
A return of circa-2006 Ibanez, along with Jones in the lineup? Yes please.
Is there any merit in turning Adam Jones into a super-sub ala McLemore or Figgins? Seems like he could net more at bats if he rotates around the field. Subbing for SS and 3B seems do-able as are all the outfield spots.
You know what I think would help the Mariners more than anything else: having a young high level player that costs nothing and can’t leave for five years whether he wants to or not. Developing young talent should be the top priority of every team. This is especially true for a team that wants to save money, but even the Yankees and Red Sox seem to understand that developing young players is important to building a winning team. Bavasi and MacLaren’s statements about how they’ll bring Adam Jones up when it helps the team, not when it helps Adam and they’ll use him to help the team, not to make him better have been driving me crazy. The thing that will be most helpful to the team is developing Adam Jones. Like you said, I’ll wait and see. If they do what they can to develop Adam, I’ll calm down, but I’m nervous. I’m way way nervous.
“Subbing for SS and 3B seems do-able…” Stop it.
I hope that Jones will be full time for the offense could use his bat if he continues to hit well. The complications that come from this is the managers job to navigate.
Jones, in left field, everyday. That is our best chance to use his incredible greatness to the bes extent each and everyday. That kid is built to run down baseballs in the field.
DAMellon, you actually think that developing young talent is more important than winning?
you PLAY to WIN the GAME. you don’t play just to play (or develop talent). you PLAY to WIN the GAME.
Personally, I play to randomly capitalise words.
20 21 I’m pretty sure that DAMellon was trying to say that teams WIN more if they develop their young talent – presumably in the long run.
Probably he’s thinking that the team is going to find a way to lose both now and in the future by not taking proper care of its young talent.
I dunno if this is true, but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t putting talent development above winning – just above winning NOW.
Well if you remember in 1995 even A-rod was used sparingly, only appearing in 48 games and having only 142 ABs. I am sure next year if Jones shows his worth this year he’ll be a starter for sure.
Question on Jones – How much bigger is he this year than last. His legs and shoulders seem much larger.
And I think that Boston found out quickly that hard stuff inside is not going to be the way to get Adam out – his bat seemed very fast last night (TV viewer).
15. Bob Fontaine said that it’s easier to lengthen a short throwing motion than to shorten a long throwing motion. Thus it’s easier to convert an infielder with a good arm to an outfielder than vice versa.
26. Yes, but Jones played both SS and pitched (short throws) earlier in HS and early minor leagues. Not saying that having him spot Beltre and Betancourt once every 2 weeks would be ideal for defense but it would be a way to work his bat into the lineup more often on the days you choose to have Ibanez in LF.
But in the end, his bat has to prove it belongs in the lineup more often. If it doesn’t, then using him in LF, exclusively for 3 or 4 days a week is the best option.
“Here’s the thing: what McLaren, or Bavasi, or anyone, should be discarded immediately.”
DMZ, I think you’re missing a verb there.
It’s Derek’s new writing game – fill in the missing verb! Kind of a combination of Ichiro Versus and MAd Libs. My attempt:
“Here’s the thing: what McLaren, or Bavasi, or anyone smokes, should be discarded immediately.”
Thus it’s easier to convert an infielder with a good arm to an outfielder than vice versa
Yes, but I think Rusty was talking about converting him back to an infielder, though I don’t much like the “super-sub” idea myself.
My pessimistic bet? Jones starts in Left when we have a groundball pitcher on the mound and Ibanez starts when we have a fly-ball machine out there. Mac won’t do it on purpose, it’ll just work out that way. Bonus points if Jones starting in Left pushes Ibanez to DH which pushes Vidro to 2B for the worm-burners.
The good news is the team is making some effort to deal with ongoing problems. The bad news is they are taking their sweet time and coming up with some goofy ideas along the way. Should make for an intersting couple of months.
[name calling]
With Jones in left the arms the of the position players seem to be without rival. In both leagues. Only Joh would seem to be average or below.
Jones’s 10 pitch at bat was especially impressive. Especially since Joh popped out on first pitch. AJ’s speed on base also appeared to be disruptive to Boston.
Exciting to finally have young Mr Jones playing for the Mariners.
27. I realize now that I didn’t quite finish that last point.
It’s an adjustment thing. Assuming he has a good arm in CF, Adam Jones can’t flip a switch and suddenly have a good 3B arm. The adjustment from having an arm suited for SS to an arm suited for CF is far more do-able and less of a project than taking his CF arm and fine tuning it to throw accurately at 3B. You have more margin of error with outfield throws, and OFers throw with a longer motion due to the strength required to make those throws.
It’s not as easy to shorten up that motion to become an effective infield arm as it is to lengthen a good IF arm to an OF arm.
Following up on #31, I understand the desire to get Jones into the lineup as much as possible, whether it be as a super-sub or everyday left fielder. You can certainly do that with some vets, but Jones has enough to think about hitting big league pitching as a rookie, and switching from left to center, without adding infield defense to the mix.
As far as Vidro playing second, he was last among NL second basemen last year with an RZR of .769, and his OOZ of 22 wasn’t especially great, either. He does have a decade of experience at the position, however, his bat is hot, and Lopez is hitting .160/.179/.173 since the All-Star break. I don’t know if it’s fatigue, his brother’s death earlier this summer, or what, but Lopez hasn’t been performing. I’d like to see Vidro spell him at second and get Broussard time at first.
32 – i agree, maybe a little rest for Lopez to get his head straight would help, and maybe Sexson losing his starting job to Broussard will be a reality check to him.
A good lineup against righties
1 – Ichiro CF
2 – Vidro 2B (Has good BA, not good slugging numbers)
3 – Beltre 3B
4 – Gullien RF
5 – Broussard 1B (Or it could be Broussard at 4th and Guillen at 5th)
6 – Johjima C
7 – Jones LF (until he further proves himself)
8 – Ibanez DH (Ibanez hasn’t hit well lately)
9 – Betancourt SS
Jones needs to play more
he can help the team way more than Raul can.
If they really wanted to make a push for a playoff spot they would know this
maybe one like JD Pruitt.
The whole concept of playing Vidro at 2nd is a bad, bad idea, and continues to drive home the point we’ve been making about the massive undervaluation of defense.
The comparison isn’t Lopez vs Vidro, as Vidro’s already playing everyday. It’s not even Lopez vs Broussard, since McLaren seems willing to play Ben at first against RHPs more often. It’s Lopez vs Ibanez or Sexson, and you’re sacrificing a ridiculous amount of defense to get one of their bats in the line-up in lieu of Lopez’s.
It’s a bad idea. There’s no scenario where Jose Vidro playing second base helps the M’s put their best team on the field.
I was watching the White Sox recently, and I was wondering something similar to this “Lopez conundrum”. Why is Juan Uribe starting? Isn’t there anyone better? He’s batting something like .220, but his career average isn’t much better than 250. Is he just that good at defense, or do the ChiSox have no one in the minors?
Dave,
I agree, but if Mclaren is committed to finding ABs for Ibanez, that means one of Jones, Vidro or Lopez rides the pine in those games.
21-By playing AJ you’re not just developing talent, you’re also improving the defense and, at this time, the offense. Raul is flat-out slow in Left and AJ’s arm is far superior. It only makes sense to split playing time in left between Raul & AJ. Raul’s OPS has dropped 52 points since the all-star break, he has 9 RBI with zero home runs.
Awesome, the A’s just took the lead!
I’ll be patient in regards to how they give Jones playing time. However I will reinterate what I said last night in that I noticed immediately the speed and youth that this guy brings to the team. Ichiro and Jones in the lineup together gives this team the speed it hasn’t had since Cameron and Ichiro were playing together.
Angels just lost.
Indians lost to.
And the White Sox are jumping all over Bonderman in the first.
Look out people, the Mariners could be in a playoff spot by the end of the night.
He may be slow since the All-Star break, but Raul’s average with RISP necessitates his bat remains in the line-up. His lousy legs and ridiculous routes to the ball, however, means that he shouldn’t remain the field. Perhaps it’s time to have play a 1B/OF role, with Broussard picking up spot starts against righties as well as spelling Guillen in right. This way, Jones could be the full-time starter in left-field. Enough with this “until he proves himself” all ready. His bat, legs, and over-all talent is superior to Ibanez’s, no question.
Of course, in this scenario, Richie’s role is seriously reduced. Tough. I’ve been rooting for Richie to get his bat together all year, as a Richie that’s hitting is a fun Richie indeed. But it’s at the point that it’s obvious he’s pressing, and it’s painful to watch. The Indians just sent Clif Lee down to AAA despite the huge contract they signed him two a couple off-seasons back- perhaps Richie should be sent down to Tacoma to regain some confidence smacking the hell out of minor-league pitching?
Thank you Oakland and Minnesota
44.
Ibanez at first so Broussard can spell Guillen in right? You sure you thought that one through, bud?
Big Ben has no business in RF. Seriously, some people are thinking this through to the point of retardation. As it stands, DMZ put it best. AJ will be playing mainly against lefties and act as a defensive replacement. From there, it’s up to AJ to prove he should be taking playing time away from Raul. Because Llts face it, AJ hasn’t proven anything at the major league level yet.
er, it should’ve said “lets face it” in my previous post.
44 – What makes you think Richie could even hit minor league pitching?
I agree with 47 Broussard is a corner INFer not a OFer however he will suriffice in an emergency if a injury happens but that’s all.
Broussard’s value is as a 1stBman platoon with Sexson and as a LHB PHing off the bench.
However Jones’s playing CF so Ichiro can DH and rest between innings says something and tells me McClaren will FIND playing time for him.
Just as he did with Broussard and others etc…….
What are the conditions that trigger the beginning of Adam Jones 5 year pre-free agent period and how are those years counted up? The reason I ask (other than that googling didn’t give me an answer) is that I wonder at what point having Jones sitting on the bench for internal team political reasons starts to burn up those extremely valuable 5 years. Or has the 5 years already started with last year’s September call up?
I wish McLaren had brought in Broussard after Sexson’s first AB last night, mostly because Richie was -clearly- shaken by the fans booing him and he had absolutely no confidence at the plate because of it. There was just no way you could’ve expected him to contribute anymore that night, and he didn’t. He let meat pitches just go right on by and whiffed at terrible ones, and not just missing by a little bit either. Several times he missed by like 3 feet! That should not happen in the major leagues. I don’t care who’s pitching, nobody is that deceptive in their placement.
Richie needs to sit for the rest of the homestand, that’s for sure. And if he continues playing this poorly in Baltimore, he needs to be sent down to Tacoma to work this out with the pressure off of him.
44 – a $14 million a year minor leaguer?!? :O could break a record.
I totally agree that we need to wait and see with AJ’s playing time.
If anything, Ibanez in Right and Broussard at First, not Broussard in Right and Vidro at First…
When making changes to a team/lineup, in order to improve your chances, the best place to start is figuring out what the largest single improvement you can get at one position is. Vidro at 2nd isn’t an improvement. A reason not mentioned is when you talk about Yuni’s (not so recent) and Lopez’ struggles, it’s about a young player still adjusting to MLB and they’re being payed as if that’s the case. Sexson’s money isn’t a factor in it unless he can be traded. But the largest improvement that I can see the team making would be playing Broussard at 1B against RHP. I think it’s to that point that Sexson should be sent down for a bit, maybe while a run of RHP
Vidro at second doesn’t make as much sense as putting a good bat at 1B. If Sexson and Broussard were both to be gone after this year, would you think of moving Clement or Wlad to 1B? I really like the idea of having 2-4 people on the team capable of stealing 10+ bases and Hitting 10+ HR. I’d put Ichiro, AJ, Kenji and Wlad on that list. More speed is good, but maybe I’m trying too hard to fit Wlad onto the ‘imaginary’ roster for next season. It’s been said quite a bit that there’s just no spot for him on this team. Clement is probably better off staying behind the plate unless he plateu’s defensively, so what do you think the chances/worth are of moving Wlad to 1B. He’s got a corner bat with speed and won’t forget how to play the OF corners just by picking up 1B. Additionally do you see either Wlad or Clement as a good possible for DH going into next year?
I don’t expect Wlad to be a 40-40 guy or anything, but I was glad he was still here after the deadline…
Oops, forgot to finish researching the RHP run that includes the next four opponent starters before a TBD for the Orioles on Thurs(Probably LH Burres, who’s pitching today.) I’d say it’s a good time to send Richie down…
Hmmmmm …. Jones and role-playing made me think:
Morse (GM): “Roll d20 to see if you catch the ball”
Jones: Rolls .. “Sweet, I caught it”
Ibanez: “Wow, even with that roll, I wouldn’t have caught it. At least I can hit the ball!”
Jones: “What?! No you can’t! Your character sucks.”
Ibanez: Sighs.
WFB: “Is it my roll yet, is it my roll yet, is it my roll yet”
You can’t send Richie or Raul to the minor leagues. Quit suggesting it, it’s impossible.