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	<title>Comments on: Contreras&#8217; Audition</title>
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	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-2/#comment-225205</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225205</guid>
		<description>So the thing that really jumps out when looking at Contreras&#039; stats is that his strand rate has fallen dramatically (both relative to his historical average and to MLB pitchers as a whole) this season.  And it looks like he was doing really well the first couple of months this year, and suddenly has been giving up flys instead of line drives or grounders (Fangraphs &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=1660&amp;position=P&amp;page=9&amp;type=full&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shows this&lt;/a&gt; in dramatic fashion -- ignore the upper graph: his average looks in-line with his history because the first couple months of the season were very good, balancing out the last six weeks).  Which leads to the question: what happened to him beginning with that June 24 start?  Since then, he&#039;s only had two games (June 29 @ KC and July 25 vs the Tigers) where his flyball rate was within his historical range.  Now, he has been punished by some hitters&#039; parks -- some of those flyballs have been HRs when they probably would&#039;ve been merely long outs in Safeco -- but the flyball rate isn&#039;t characteristic of the park.  It&#039;s a characteristic of the pitcher, and in this case it&#039;s not a good one.  There&#039;s no way that&#039;s just bad luck.  Something has happened to him.  What is it, and is it fixable?  Obviously, if anybody really knew it would be fixed already.  And I don&#039;t have a lot of confidence in the M&#039;s coaching staff having the necessary magic pixie dust... but then again we have the Weaver experience as a counter-example, so I guess anything is possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the thing that really jumps out when looking at Contreras&#8217; stats is that his strand rate has fallen dramatically (both relative to his historical average and to MLB pitchers as a whole) this season.  And it looks like he was doing really well the first couple of months this year, and suddenly has been giving up flys instead of line drives or grounders (Fangraphs <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=1660&amp;position=P&amp;page=9&amp;type=full" rel="nofollow">shows this</a> in dramatic fashion &#8212; ignore the upper graph: his average looks in-line with his history because the first couple months of the season were very good, balancing out the last six weeks).  Which leads to the question: what happened to him beginning with that June 24 start?  Since then, he&#8217;s only had two games (June 29 @ KC and July 25 vs the Tigers) where his flyball rate was within his historical range.  Now, he has been punished by some hitters&#8217; parks &#8212; some of those flyballs have been HRs when they probably would&#8217;ve been merely long outs in Safeco &#8212; but the flyball rate isn&#8217;t characteristic of the park.  It&#8217;s a characteristic of the pitcher, and in this case it&#8217;s not a good one.  There&#8217;s no way that&#8217;s just bad luck.  Something has happened to him.  What is it, and is it fixable?  Obviously, if anybody really knew it would be fixed already.  And I don&#8217;t have a lot of confidence in the M&#8217;s coaching staff having the necessary magic pixie dust&#8230; but then again we have the Weaver experience as a counter-example, so I guess anything is possible.</p>
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		<title>By: LA M's Fan</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-2/#comment-225200</link>
		<dc:creator>LA M's Fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225200</guid>
		<description>Just want to take a second to point out how completely asinine the Fox Broadcasters are today.  My head is about to spontaneously combust.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just want to take a second to point out how completely asinine the Fox Broadcasters are today.  My head is about to spontaneously combust.</p>
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		<title>By: Tek Jansen</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-2/#comment-225185</link>
		<dc:creator>Tek Jansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225185</guid>
		<description>I loved Gammons just as a writer, but when it comes to breaking info about teams, players, and trades, Rosenthal is as good as national writers get, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved Gammons just as a writer, but when it comes to breaking info about teams, players, and trades, Rosenthal is as good as national writers get, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Rumpelstiltskin</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225179</link>
		<dc:creator>Rumpelstiltskin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225179</guid>
		<description>But Ramirez is only 27 and the M&#039;s are 8-6 in his starts...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Ramirez is only 27 and the M&#8217;s are 8-6 in his starts&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: terry</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225178</link>
		<dc:creator>terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225178</guid>
		<description>What type of an upgrade would Contreras represent?

Contreras&#039; results have sucked since the all-star break as he&#039;s given up 35 earned runs in 34 IP. That said, recently Dave has effectively preached from his soapbox about the flaws of evaluating players using a results-based analysis philosophy. In light of that, here&#039;s a quick look at some of Contreras&#039; peripherals for his pre/post ASB splits:

pre-ASB: 100 IP;
BB%:8.1; K%: 13.1; GB%: 33.4; FB%: 25.5; LD%: 15.9; HR/FB: 6.0;	FIP: 4.04; BABIP: .302;

post-ASB: 34 IP;						
BB%: 6.0; K%: 12.5; GB%: 32.1; FB%: 33.3; LD%: 9.5; HR/FB: 16.1; FIP: 6.33; BABIP: .367;

Looking at Contreras&#039; peripherals, the biggest changes are that more of his fly balls have went yard in the second half (that is more luck than reflective of a skill) and he&#039;s been more hit unlucky even though his LD% is significantly lower. Perhaps it&#039;s a matter of location troubles (i.e. leaving things up in the zone). Maybe he&#039;s just been very unlucky and his mistakes are just getting pounded during this stretch. In any event, these numbers don&#039;t refute an assertion that Contreras&#039; skill set is there but lady luck hasn&#039;t been. Given what we&#039;ve seen last night, his stuff seems there.

So then if it&#039;s reasonable to conclude that Contreras&#039; skill set is sufficient for him to represent an upgrade over HoRam, the next question is what might the impact of switching the two pitchers be over the remaining quarter of the season?  We&#039;re basically talking about 8 regular season starts and then perhaps 4 post season ones. Assuming those 8 starts translate into 50 IP (the math is much easier and this is just a rough estimate anyway), could Contreras really do enough to give the Ms a better chance at those post season starts?

Here&#039;s few scenarios that might capture a reasonable range for the impact of replacing HoRam with Contreras over the remainder of the season. If both pitchers simply maintain their current ERAs (JC: 6.18; HR: 7.38), Contreras would be a 7 run upgrade or something less than a win. BTW, could there be worse initials for a pitcher than HR? If HoRam maintains and Contreras&#039; ERA matches his current xFIP (5.12), JC would be an 11 run upgrade as an M over those 50 IP representing a win improvement. If HoRam maintains and the Ms catch lightning in a bottle with Contreras having a league average ERA (4.60 for AL starters), then JC represents a 15 run upgrade or a bonafide 1.5 win advantage. Thus, while it&#039;s probably not debatable that Contreras is an upgrade over Ramirez, the magnitude of the upgrade during the Ms playoff push could range anywhere from much to do about nothing to a significant boost. 

In my mind, if Contreras is indeed the best arm available, the Ms should do something potentially stupid from a long term perspective in order to chase that potential 1.5 win boost assuming money and not talent is the major component of such a deal. Dave&#039;s argument about the financial aspects of the pitching market greatly strengthen this conclusion because, if Dave is right, the risk is greatly reduced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What type of an upgrade would Contreras represent?</p>
<p>Contreras&#8217; results have sucked since the all-star break as he&#8217;s given up 35 earned runs in 34 IP. That said, recently Dave has effectively preached from his soapbox about the flaws of evaluating players using a results-based analysis philosophy. In light of that, here&#8217;s a quick look at some of Contreras&#8217; peripherals for his pre/post ASB splits:</p>
<p>pre-ASB: 100 IP;<br />
BB%:8.1; K%: 13.1; GB%: 33.4; FB%: 25.5; LD%: 15.9; HR/FB: 6.0;	FIP: 4.04; BABIP: .302;</p>
<p>post-ASB: 34 IP;<br />
BB%: 6.0; K%: 12.5; GB%: 32.1; FB%: 33.3; LD%: 9.5; HR/FB: 16.1; FIP: 6.33; BABIP: .367;</p>
<p>Looking at Contreras&#8217; peripherals, the biggest changes are that more of his fly balls have went yard in the second half (that is more luck than reflective of a skill) and he&#8217;s been more hit unlucky even though his LD% is significantly lower. Perhaps it&#8217;s a matter of location troubles (i.e. leaving things up in the zone). Maybe he&#8217;s just been very unlucky and his mistakes are just getting pounded during this stretch. In any event, these numbers don&#8217;t refute an assertion that Contreras&#8217; skill set is there but lady luck hasn&#8217;t been. Given what we&#8217;ve seen last night, his stuff seems there.</p>
<p>So then if it&#8217;s reasonable to conclude that Contreras&#8217; skill set is sufficient for him to represent an upgrade over HoRam, the next question is what might the impact of switching the two pitchers be over the remaining quarter of the season?  We&#8217;re basically talking about 8 regular season starts and then perhaps 4 post season ones. Assuming those 8 starts translate into 50 IP (the math is much easier and this is just a rough estimate anyway), could Contreras really do enough to give the Ms a better chance at those post season starts?</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s few scenarios that might capture a reasonable range for the impact of replacing HoRam with Contreras over the remainder of the season. If both pitchers simply maintain their current ERAs (JC: 6.18; HR: 7.38), Contreras would be a 7 run upgrade or something less than a win. BTW, could there be worse initials for a pitcher than HR? If HoRam maintains and Contreras&#8217; ERA matches his current xFIP (5.12), JC would be an 11 run upgrade as an M over those 50 IP representing a win improvement. If HoRam maintains and the Ms catch lightning in a bottle with Contreras having a league average ERA (4.60 for AL starters), then JC represents a 15 run upgrade or a bonafide 1.5 win advantage. Thus, while it&#8217;s probably not debatable that Contreras is an upgrade over Ramirez, the magnitude of the upgrade during the Ms playoff push could range anywhere from much to do about nothing to a significant boost. </p>
<p>In my mind, if Contreras is indeed the best arm available, the Ms should do something potentially stupid from a long term perspective in order to chase that potential 1.5 win boost assuming money and not talent is the major component of such a deal. Dave&#8217;s argument about the financial aspects of the pitching market greatly strengthen this conclusion because, if Dave is right, the risk is greatly reduced.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225177</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225177</guid>
		<description>Jose Contreras &gt; David Wells &gt; Horacio Ramirez = order of supremacy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jose Contreras &gt; David Wells &gt; Horacio Ramirez = order of supremacy</p>
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		<title>By: JIMINEDMONDS</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225176</link>
		<dc:creator>JIMINEDMONDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225176</guid>
		<description>A veteran pitcher with play-off (and World Series championship) experience, who still has something in the tank, is most certainly an upgrade over the train-wreck that is trotted out every five days in the person of HoRam. C&#039;mon Bavasi, bring Contreras on board. It might just be the best tonic that we can find to put us over the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A veteran pitcher with play-off (and World Series championship) experience, who still has something in the tank, is most certainly an upgrade over the train-wreck that is trotted out every five days in the person of HoRam. C&#8217;mon Bavasi, bring Contreras on board. It might just be the best tonic that we can find to put us over the top.</p>
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		<title>By: vj</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225175</link>
		<dc:creator>vj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225175</guid>
		<description>More than Gammons? Really?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More than Gammons? Really?</p>
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		<title>By: Tek Jansen</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225173</link>
		<dc:creator>Tek Jansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225173</guid>
		<description>On the Fox pre-game show, of which I simply cannot get enough, Rosenthal said that Contreras was most likely to be dealt during the offseason.  I trust him more than any other national writer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the Fox pre-game show, of which I simply cannot get enough, Rosenthal said that Contreras was most likely to be dealt during the offseason.  I trust him more than any other national writer.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/comment-page-1/#comment-225172</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/2007/08/17/contreras-audition/#comment-225172</guid>
		<description>Now that you got most of us on board re: the M&#039;s acquiring Contreras, Dave, he&#039;ll probably leave town still wearing &quot;good guys black&quot;.  :)

Up, down, excited, depressed, confident, woeful, happy, angry, up, down.  What a season...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that you got most of us on board re: the M&#8217;s acquiring Contreras, Dave, he&#8217;ll probably leave town still wearing &#8220;good guys black&#8221;.  <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Up, down, excited, depressed, confident, woeful, happy, angry, up, down.  What a season&#8230;</p>
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