Out with the old
Dave · August 23, 2007 at 8:08 am · Filed Under Mariners
In with the older. John Parrish will be DFA’d today, making room for 38-year-old Rick White on the roster.
Yep. Rick White. The M’s are hellbent on having someone with experience in their bullpen, and it apparently does not matter if they can get major league hitters out or not.
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The factor most likely to keep us out of the playoffs is the dual incompetence of McLaren and Bavasi.
what are the odds anyone claims Parrish?
Rick White?!?!?
I just don’t understand this team.
I would have preferred Barry White.
If he only were still alive, he
could have provided needed clubhouse
entertainment!
smb-
The dual incompetence of McLaren and Bavasi have us 19 games over .500 and first in the wild card.
Why not! he is a veteran and continues the color theme in the bullpen…white, green, white! I was actually hoping for Vida Blue.
if only we still had “ace setup man Ryan Franklin”
Last night I saw Aaron Sele pitching in relief to Mike Cameron..it wasn’t a dream — I was awake!
RE: #5, inspite of or because of?
to be truthful, I had completely missed that the M’s had put The Burly Righthander in Tacoma.
maybe it’s as close as they can get to David Wells.
5 The team is 18 games over .500 because of the talent of the players.
You could say that it is Bavasi and McLaren who are responsible for putting this talent together, etc. But then the question will be whether or not they did better with what they were given than, say, the average GM or manager would do in their positions.
The answer has to be no.
Why not get The Sheriff back then??
I see a lot of Bavasi-bashing here, but not a lot of alternatives–who would you guys sign/bring up?
Not a rosterbation thread.
someone from AAA! michkolio perhaps
mark lowe
Um, no on both.
One’s on the DL, one’s still regaining strength and coming back.
Dave–I have to type. You have been on fire this season. So many mornings I am greeted with great information, but as a bonus your sense of humour.
Always nice for a tear and a smile,chuckle in the morning.
I am sure you coud come up with a couple of dozen better options without much,if any, thought.
Rick White, the former Congressman from North Seattle? The same one, who, when running for re-election, had some of his campaign signs defaced so that they read ” Rich White Republican”?
…This is a nothing deal. It will not hurt the team, didn’t cost them anything…they didn’t trade Felix and Ichiro for Rick White.
Aaron Sele is proof that experience is vastly overrated by GM’s and managers. The fact he’s still in baseball is mind boggling.
I didn’t even realize White was in the Ms system….
Am I missing something? That link says White is 37 years old. Anyway, I have to agree with ira in #18; the move, to me, means nothing.
Both Kameron Michkolio and Mark lowe are on the DL.
Rick White still has those cat-like reflexes….
So Bavasi’s been down in tacoma the past couple games; I was wondering who he was there to see. Let’s just say that Rick White was *not* among my first ten guesses.
It also helped that he saw another bullpen candidate, Jose De La Cruz, get absolutely bombed.
Cha Seung Baek is close to being back, however. I think he starts tonight in Tacoma.
After yesterday’s performance by the Orioles, maybe Parrish will wind up back there and Seattle will trade for whichever random reliever the O’s will DFA to clear the roster spot.
Can I make a joke here about “out with the old, in with the older”?
Apparently I can’t, because I can’t read the FIRST LINE OF THE POST ARGH.
I blame a lack of coffee, but at least great minds think alike!
The M’s are hellbent on having someone with experience in their bullpen, and it apparently does not matter if they can get major league hitters out or not.
Next up: trading for Jose Mesa.
Norm Charlton was singing Rick White’s praises on Sunday. That’s enough clue for me to know that he totally sucks.
Mickolio, guys. It’s spelled Mickolio.
I’m surprised by this. I thought small sample sizes of success in Tacoma didn’t count.
Not a terrible move, but doesn’t really improve anything. White will probably sport a better K/BB ratio, and keep the ball in the Ballpark at the same rate as Parrish did. Plus, he’s got 13 Innings of playoff experience instead of 0… oh wait, in those 13 innings hes given up 15 hits and 6 Earned Runs… not the pitcher I want to put on the mound in a pressure situation.
Free Triunfel… oh wait, that’s not for another 2 or 3 years, wrong post
Rick Reuschel and Rick Waits were apparently unavailable.
Good thing the spelling police are out doing more important things. Can’t wait until Jhrmivy gets to Seattle!
If the M’s were going to purchase a disposable reliever, I am surprised they went with White over Lehr. I would not be surprised if White is discarded by the end of the month.
Well, it looks like the difference between his small-sample Houston ERA (7.67) and his teeny-tiny-sample Tacoma ERA (1.00) is the spread between his BABIP in those two places — .337 in Houston and .136 in Tacoma, both weird numbers. Leave it to the Mariners to pay no attention to that.
I would prefer anyone named Jose at this point. I want to set the MLB record for Jose’s on the 25 man roster. I am not sure what the record is, but we have to be close. I would even take a Joe, Joseph, Josef, Giuseppe, Osip or Jozsef.
Well, the M’s needed someone to give up the last 10 runs to Texas in tonight’s 31-3 contest. Rick White is as good as anybody else.
The great thing about the team being in a playoff spot is I don’t have to think about any of your pesky criticisms of team management. The team is winning: that is all I or anyone needs to know.
he’ll probably be dumped in september when they bring up fierebend, woods, and campillo…he’s just there to eat innings in the brutal stretch coming up…we won’t see him pitch in any games where he can hurt the team…i hope…
If Kameron Mickolio wasn’t hurt is there a sense that he’d have been the call up or is that just wistful dreaming in the face of the awesome power that is veteran presence?
Antonetti in ‘08!!
The team is winning: that is all I or anyone needs to know.
That was also the philosophy at Enron.
This move is either terrible or irrelevant, depending on whether McLaren sticks White in high leverage situations or uses him mop up roles. The frustrating thing about Parrish was that, when he first got here, he was the new 7th inning guy, even though there were at least five better relievers in the pen. It took McLaren a few games to figure out what Dave et al knew from the start (I don’t think we lost any because of a misuse of Parrish, but we game really close at least once, Richie Sexson pulling McLaren’s bacon out of the fire). But, Mac did learn, and Parrish was relegated to mop-up.
If it takes him another two weeks to figure out White is his sixth or seventh best option, I will scream myself hoarse.
37 — Hey, you’re right! We’re in a playoff position, so we can check our brains at the door and not worry about what the best moves are to steer this ship into the playoff shoals …
er, I mean shores …
or harbor?
Whatever, let’s close our eyes and not worry whether the captain of the ship has a clue.
I see White went on the DL several times with the Astros this year, including a stint due to “a strained oblique muscle suffered warming up in the bullpen”
Why do they need anyone to take that roster spot? Which is better: a six man bullpen, or a seven man bullpen that includes one guy you don’t trust in any game situation? Because that’s all the seventh man has been. Of course, having a six man bullpen would free up an extra spot on the bench, which would be a Wonderful Thing if MacLaren actually made use of his bench in a rational fashion.
(And yeah, in the midst of a long road trip during a pennant race, I can accept the wisdom of having one more guy out there to eat some innings. But given the quality of the people available to be that one more guy — or at least the quality of the people Bavasi can find — is that really a benefit?)
#35 would prefer anyone named Jose at this point. I want to set the MLB record for Jose’s on the 25 man roster. I am not sure what the record is, but we have to be close. I would even take a Joe, Joseph, Josef, Giuseppe, Osip or Jozsef.
How about Jose Paniagua?
45. McLaren doesn’t use his 4 man bench that much. Why would he need a 5th player on that bench? Extra seat warmth?
47 – valid point, but recall the game last week when he didn’t pinch hit Broussard because he was afraid of using Bloomquist as a pinch runner because there’d be nobody left on the bench. I didn’t get it at the time, but maybe another bench guy would help.
Call me juvenile, but whenever I hear the name Mickolio I think of Beavis and Butthead. Heh heh, heh heh.
The Mariners are in a tight playoff race. It’s not as if they’re 15 games up on the competition.
That being the case, we should be MORE concerned about poor management of the team, not less, because the margin for error is much lower.
(I hope this makes up for my embarassing earlier post)
35 – I hear Jose Offerman is available.
Overall this move won’t mean much (hopefully), but it’s pretty endemic of the thinking of the Mariners/Bavasi, overvaluing unquantifiable or irrelevant aspects of a person (veteran status, experience) without regards to actual talent or performance. Rick White has experience with not being particularly good in a while and his ability to help the Mariners begins and ends with any sort of intangibles that he may presumably bring to the clubhouse.
Remember Mark Lowe last year? A guy with no experience who was brought up straight from Double-A, entrusted (to Mike Hargrove’s credit) with high leverage situations, and succeeded? The Mariners should know from their own experience how to properly build a bullpen yet they keep on ignoring that in favor of retreads like Rick White.
46 – Jose Paniagua is definitely available. I’ll take him. I’ll bet he could make us sweat every bit as much as John Parrish, Chris Reitsma or Rick White.
50 – Jose Offerman is busy last I heard.
Gomez (47), I guess you missed the line where I said which would be a Wonderful Thing if MacLaren actually made use of his bench in a rational fashion. Sorry about that, I guess I’ll try to repeat everything in the future. BTW, I guess you missed the part where I said…
Of course HoRam could fill that spot…
It’s pretty clear at this juncture that McLaren’s going to do things the way grandpa did ‘em and that’s just the name of that tune. God help us if the Mariners win a pennant or the World Series because he’ll be managing for the next 5 years no matter what happens after that.
51…thanks, man, you said it perfectly.
Like DMZ’s contibution to the face of the franchise feature on espn.com illustrated, it’s maddening to care so much about this team and watch the FO continually fail to adequately leverage its resources. The Parrish move is pretty emblematic of the type of move that continually leaves me scratching my head.
I know he might not be a prospect, but this Parrish fiasco really, really makes me hope Sebastian Boucher makes it.
Maybe there is a rational explanation for this move……
“God help us if the Mariners win a pennant or the World Series because he’ll be managing for the next 5 years no matter what happens after that.”
Yeah, we definitely don’t want them to win anything like the World Series, since it’s way more important to have demonstrable proof that the manager is incompetent.
54. Try not to get catty. I read your whole post and felt I still had to make the point.
Whether or not he SHOULD use the bench is immaterial to the point that he DOESN’T use the bench and thus adding another player to it is pointless.
I guess I don’t have a problem with the move if McLaren uses him as Bob Melvin does. Yes the hated Bob Melvin seems to have figured something out in Arizona. I thought this was a great article from Hardball Times explaining how having a crappy long relief pitch might not be the worst thing to have. RRS did a great job last night but in a blowoout game around the 6th inning throwing in your bench and an awful reliever isn’t the worst idea. At least if you want to defy that no good pythag!
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/no-mirage-in-arizona/
Seriously, no one should overreact to this move. The bullpen is already one man short with RRS unavailable tonight and maybe tomorrow night, so the M’s need a fresh bullpen arm in case of emergency.
Due to injuries, ineffectiveness, and other considerations, the other options in Tacoma are just as unappealing. With Ramirez still shaky, the team may not want to pull one of his possible replacements out of Tacoma’s rotation just to sit in the major league bullpen. The team also wants to avoid calling up a prospect who would not have to be added to the 40-man roster this offseason just as an emergency fill-in. And the team may need to bump someone off the 40-man roster when rosters expand in September, so the team may want the person being added today to be disposable.
Baek — recovering from injury, starting on rehab assignment, candidate to replace Ramirez
Lowe — injured after coming back from injury
Mickolio — injured, not on 40-man
Feierabend — starting, candidate to replace Ramirez
Campillo — starting, not on 40-man, candidate to replace Ramirez
Rohrbaugh — starting, not on 40-man (and need not be added this offseason), candidate to replace Ramirez
Huber — pitching horribly on rehab assignment, recovering from injury
Lehr — mediocre, not on 40-man
Jimenez — mediocre
De La Cruz — mediocre and pitching horribly, not on 40-man (and need not be added this offseason)
Davis — horrible and pitching horribly, not on 40-man
Woods — horrible and pitching horribly, not on 40-man
S. White — horrible, rehabbing from injury
If all they wanted was a crappy pitcher to throw in for blowouts, why trade Boucher and take on the last few hundred thousand on Parrish’s contract? Why not just call up Lehr or Campillo or some other random replacement level arm from Tacoma?
And then why dump Parrish (while still paying him) to pick up — and pay — yet another aging replacement level pitcher?
They just seem fixated on the idea that they need a veteran pitcher in the bullpen. I truly don’t get it.
Baker weighs in on the subject in his blog entry
I would like to have a knuckleballer in the pen as the last man out there. He’d be a guy who could pitch any time for as long as you need him. Or make an emergency start if necessary. Kind of like Wakefield used to do for the Sox. With a guy like that you could go with a shorter bullpen and another hitter.
64- Agree whole heartedly, very few bullpens have 7 guys they can throw out there in any situation. I would think that none of them do. They all have an innings eater, Parrish would have been a good innings eater I believe.
Parrish wouldn’t have been a “good” anything. The thing that’s impossible to understand is why did it take his 5 1/3 crappy innings with Seattle for them to figure out that he stinks? Couldn’t they have figured that out from his 41 2/3 crappy innings with Baltimore?
Do they not have scouts? Can they not read stat lines?
The team picked up Parrish with the (bad) idea of using him in high leverage situations, which is exactly how the M’s used him initially. Parrish would have been unavailable tonight and probably tomorrow night, so the team made the exchange of crappy pitchers today.
9 and 11
What and what? You can’t tell me that the talent on the team is winning despite the general manager. HE IS THE ONE WHO ASSEMBLED THE TALENT. Bavasi deserves blame for the last two years, Bavasi also deserves credit for this year. He has made some bonehead moves. No one disagrees. You cannot, however, make ridiculous claims that he should get no credit for this team’s success.
I am firmly in the Fire Bavasi and Hire Antonetti camp, but come on. Give props when they are due. Don’t stick your head in the sand, that makes you just as bad as the supposedly “unenlightened” baseball fans.
Dave,
At first you devastated me with this bad news. I mean what was I to do with without my daily ritual of bashing John Parrish? However you came through when you announced that Mr. Rich White would be replacing him. There is a baseball god! Thank you Dave.
The Parrish trade wasn’t bad (although it wasn’t good). The M’s gave up someone who would have never contributed to the major league team. It was a wash.
As for Rick White, he is an innings eater. Unfortunately, judging from his appearance, he appears to smother those innings in cheese prior to eating them.
Also, La la la la la la la.
27: Probably won’t happen — he’s far too “valuable” to the Phillies.
On that note, though, where’e Doug Creek when you need him?!
10
Too funny on so many fronts (having seen what they both look like, lol)
Innings eater? White hasn’t pitched more than 78 innings in a season since 1999.
I imagine Bavasi’s reason for picking him up, and calling him up, is his playoff experience.
He’s primarily an NL guy (at least in recent years), which is a concern to me.
The Parrish trade wasn’t bad (although it wasn’t good). The M’s gave up someone who would have never contributed to the major league team. It was a wash.
Except the Mariners now have to eat a much higher salary. Not that it’s a huge amount or anything, but still… a penny saved is a penny earned, right?
I suppose it’s worth saying he’s an innings eater just to get in the line about putting cheese on them. I liked that.
70
How do you justify looking at his successes independent of his many failures? Context is a m-f’er, no? No one is trying to say he deserves no credit…I don’t see where you read that. What I would say is that aside from Guillen, I’m hard pressed to pick out one decent move he’s made that any average (even below average) GM wouldn’t or couldn’t have likely also made. I personally refuse to celebrate the merits of an average (at best) job performance. On my scale, average performance, given the resources of the club, is tantamount of incompetence. Ideally, and as been put forth on the blog over and over and over, an organization puts the lineup on the field that gives the team the best chance to win every day. I see that happening far too rarely for my taste, and if we fail to make the playoffs, the lion’s share of the blame will belong to Bill and Johnny Mac.
And got someone in return who contributed negatively to the major league team, in a pennant race. The team then minimized the damage by cutting him quickly, but I don’t see how you can say it wasn’t a bad trade.
#77 — As long as taking on that small, extra amount of salary does not prohibit them from doing anything, I don’t think it matters. The trade contributed nothing positive or negative for this season or any future season. I just can’t get worked up about it. Now, HoRam for Soriano . . .
#80 — Parrish blew a save in a game the M’s eventually won. The rest of the time he pitched in circumstances where the outcome was, for all intensive purposes decided. Since the M’s were fortunate enough to not have Parrish lose a game, I won’t lose any sleep over the loss of Boucher.
For all intents and purposes. Not “intensive purposes”. Your point is correct, the trade was no big deal, but the outcome was entirely predictable.
From Mariners.com:
“From a personal standpoint, I am just like a fan right now and watching [them] go about their business,” Jeff Pentland said. “I try to stay out of their way, more than anything else.”
Oh, okay. I guess Johjima can stay in his ground out slump, Yuni can keep free swinging in take situations, and Sexson can keep being Sexson.
Way to earn that pay check, Jeff.
Hey, these guys are “professional hitters”. They know how to get themselves out of slumps *cough* *cough* Richie *cough*.
Re #85:
Retire?
Re: 60
If your neophyte-at-poker wife wins ten grand drawing to an inside straight at a Vegas table you can be forgiven for having mixed emotions about the outcome.
No way…I’d be thrilled because she’d let me play poker as much as I want.
What with?
Not her ten grand, that’s for sure.
87 – maybe a better analogy would be if my not-previously-disposed-to-financial-acumen wife finally balanced the checkbook, took some finance classes (with so-so grades), got a job at Merrill Lynch, started managing the family finances, and managed a 150% return in year 1. I wouldn’t expect anywhere near those results every year, and there would still be mistakes certainly, but that extra income would pay off the mortgage and the beach house. Which would be nice.
79-
Who put the team in a position to run out a less than ideal lineup and still be 19 games over .500? I understand that this team could be better. I WANT this team to be better. That does NOT negate the fact that this team, as is currently constructed, has been successful this year. So, looking at his successes in conjunction with his failures, you would have to come to the conclusion that, this year, his moves have overall been successful, no?
Oh, and scraps, thanks for the well thought out argument. It’s always nice to read differing opinions when they are put forth so eloquently.
76- He is not a good pitcher which is a concern to me. Might as well of traded Parrish for Parrish. I feel like this trade changes nothing. Which could be a bad thing since improving is the point of every personnel move on one level or another.
84 Carson – Do not be surprised if Pentland quits after the season. He preaches plate discipline and has at every stop in his career. I have heard from a former player that he has given up on trying to get this team to listen to him. Also, apparently the teams unwillingness to learn the art of taking bad pitches for a ball was one of the things that drove Hargrove out of town.
87-
Bill Bavasi could have a 900 million dollar payroll and have nothing but low OBP, low slg, fly ball doesn’t miss bats players if he won us a World Series.
What’s this about Mark Lowe being re-injured?? I can’t find any info on this anywhere? Is it related to his elbow, or strength, or something else?
According to the Rainier roster both Mickolio and Lowe are on the 7 day DL and Rick White for whom Parrish is being DFAed to get a roster spot is also on the Rainier roster.
As to the extend or seriousness of the injurys to Mickolio and Lowe the Rainier web site doesn’t seem to have any details and I’m not sure either where else to look but the roster site confirms their DLing.
Dylan, did I misrepresent your position by imagining you with your fingers in your ears? It sure sounded like you were saying that the winning team spoke for itself and was an entire refutation of people’s criticisms of Bavasi’s moves. Are you not saying that? Are you in fact willing to have a conversation about whether the moves were good moves or not? If so, I apologize.
So apparently Rick White can pitch better than Kameron Mickolo??
Wow.
I never thought I’d miss Chris Reitsma.
Mickolio is in Peoria and feeling pretty good right now. He’s one of the M’s headed to the Arizona Fall League this year and is unlikely to pitch again during the ‘07 season.
I never thought I’d miss Julio Mateo.
Well, if one of ‘em can pitch and the other is on the DL, well, yeah, I guess he is…
I don’t miss Julio Mateo or Reitsma. I am not particularly worried about the the #6 and #7 men coming out of the bullpen. The will only cost the M’s games if Mac chooses to use them incorrectly. If he uses them correctly, like he did yesterday, the bullpen will continue to be an asset.
92. That’s results-based analysis, and doesn’t necessarily provide merit to the decisions that produced this team. Teams and players often succeed despite themselves, so it would stand to reason that GM’s can construct winning teams despite themselves.
The Mariners cut their 25th man and there are 106 (now 107) comments. Can we start the game already?
To their credit, it only took them two weeks to figure out Parrish was a replacement level player if that. They’re going on months with other players.
Does that mean he was booing Richie Sexson during his slump?
The loss of John Parrish is insignificant. It is, however, symptomatic of the poor talent evaluation in the front office.
To his credit, Bavasi recognizes that Parrish sucks and is willing to eat his salary. What I dont understand is why he didn’t recognize that 2 weeks ago?
From that standpoint it is similar to the acquisition of HoRam, Vidro (notwithstanding his recent improvement), and a slew of others.
OK, this point has been made a thousand times before. It’s just getting old.
#107 –
I don’t know if you can tell or not, but there is a lot of pent up frustration among many M’s fans. There is only one way to relieve that much impatience and anger…
Rosterbate!!! *
*Lucky Number does not advise the use of rosterbation on the internet (particularly USSM) and instead recommends doing it in the privacy if your own home, far far away from the computer.
Gomez-
We aren’t talking about individual player skill sets here. I agree with Dave (because you are essentially using his argument) that players need to be analyzed utilizing their skillsets. Players get “lucky” or misrepresent actual talent, often shown after a regression to the mean. I do not, however, believe that entire teams for three quarters of a season do. There are zero perfect teams out there and GM’s who we all wish we had (Beane and Shapiro, for example) are in our rear view mirror. Bavasi could do better. So could everyone else.
Scraps-
I absolutely am going into this with an open mind. As I said, there are PLENTY of things that I would change about this team, but the man has to be given some amount of credit for putting a winning team on the field. It’s often said in the blogging world that luck doesn’t exist, there is always a reason why something happens. No one has given me a particularly good reason why this team is winning games “despite” themselves.
Standard lineup again.
Good thing recent performance doesn’t mean anything, or else we’d have a heck of a series ahead of us.
So this doesn’t add much to the conversation but, 108 HILARIOUS!