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The Cheater's Guide to Baseball
"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
This one is earned
Some losing streaks are a collection of tough breaks - a blooper here, a blown call there, and all of the sudden, you’ve lost a few games in a row.
This is not that. The Mariners have earned this six game losing streak - the one that’s essentially taken their playoff chances and ground them into powder. Through sheer ridiculous stubbornness and a complete lack of understanding of real baseball strategy, John McLaren punted tonights game. Just threw a win right out the window.
The Mariners didn’t deserve to win tonight’s game, even though they had it in their grasp. As an organization, they’ve put people in charge who simply aren’t capable of making enough good decisions to create a team that wins enough games to be considered a contender.
John McLaren simply doesn’t understand how to manage a roster. In game strategy isn’t everything, but it’s part of the job, and he fails at it.
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Is there any chance that we’ll see McLaren get the boot?
At this point, part of me wants this team to flop in september. I do love them, but the long term success of this organization can be bettered by firing Bavasi and MacLaren.
I am … wow. I don’t know that I can root for this team any more this year. It is too freaking painful. Just… amazing. How do you… Un-be-freaking-leave-able.
I’m so passionate about the M’s i’s ridiculous…..tonight I broke my remote control and created a hole on the drywall.
Therefore, I’ll watch tomorrow’s game but I’m heading to Ft. Myers this weekend to take a few day break from this.
I cannot stand watching this much longer….tonight was absurd.
In the 9th tonight, 1 guy gets a hit. The other got beaned and other 2 walked….pathetic.
It’s ok to cry right?
We finally got AJ for a whole game and he played well. Ramirez didn’t totally suck. We came from behind to take the lead. And still, we find creative ways to lose. Although at this point, using White to lose is no longer creative.
Least surprising event this evening was after listening to McLaren once again roll out Rick White in a crucial situation…being unable to access USSM, no doubt due to the many angrily typed posts being heaped upon it.
2- Want them to flop? There is no way they don’t with McLaren at the helm. McLaren is flopping them just fine with out us wanting it.
That move is completely indefensible! JJ hasn’t pitched in 6 days! Best reliever in the game or Fat Ugly Lazy Killer to Rallies or FUCKR for short. Who dyes their beard anyways?? McLaren should be fired for this game alone.
Worst part is he gave O’Face the loss. Ruining his perfect 7-0 record.
I was a defender of McLaren, since managing a baseball team is the easiest of all professional sports, thinking he is being the scapegoat, and you guys were too tough on him. Well…..;.I WAS WRONG…he is an idiot, he stamped that label tonight. I don’t like to call someone an idiot, because it is way overused, but it is clear, he has no decision making ability.
I am embarrassed.
Have some guts, fire him NOW>
Dave will you rip McLaren a new one on air for us tomorrow? Just watch the MLB.tv archive of the game over and over till your chat with Groz and let it all out for us at USSM and Mariner fans everywhere.
Please tell me Putz has some kind of nagging injury, a strained oblique, something. Not that I want him to be hurt. I can’t handle this level of stupidity.
The Adam Jones situation makes me feel pretty much the same way that I feel when a $20 steak spoils in my refrigerator. What is the point of resigning overrated, overpaid veterans to do a worse job than a prospect could do.
Unfortunately I think that Bavasi and Mac have done just enough to keep their jobs. The expectations need to be much, much higher this year.
Tomorrow’s KJR gig is actually a couple hours early - we’re doing it at 11:50 am, right before lunch.
But, yea, I think John McLaren’s moves will be criticized on the air.
Well, let’s see.
White’s relieved in 2 tie games and one one-run game, and coughed up runs in all of them.
So, in 3 high-leverage situations, with a bullpen that’s performed well all year, McLaren decided to go with a guy who got waived from a last-place club after posting a jetliner ERA. Because he’s “been through wars”.
So, yeah, I’m going with “this streak is McLaren being a dumbass”. We could EASILY be 3-3 our last 6 instead of 0-6 with a competent manager.
Seriously, someone has to chew out McLaren for this recent batch of ineptitude. Yet again with the game on the line… why refuse to bring in your best pitcher?
Bavasi earns some of the blame for even putting White on the team. Managers can’t resist the tasty morsel of “veteraniness” dangled in front of ‘em. We saw it from Hargove in the past and McLaren is even more clueless. $#@%!
You know, the mere thought that McLaren will probably stay next season despite the fact that he’s a certified idiot makes me wanna scream. It’s tortuous, seriously.
Please.Fire.That.Idiot. NOW.
It’s getting really tough to maintain a positive attitude about this team. They seem to be clueless about players and strategy. Time to burn my Mariners gear ….
according to Mac, White was the only available pitcher. The bullpen has been overworked, & the starters really need to go longer, and today should have been an off-day … Ryan R-S was held out to be the long man if they went to extra innings and they ‘had to have JJ available to wrap it up if they tok the lead’.
Norm thinks Mac is using JJ the way he is because that was the way Lou liked to do it, and he’s been Lou’s bullpen & bench coach for so long.
Drayer says Lopez is planned to sit for a few days ‘to work on things’, and Richie is going to rest the hamstring on the turf. Beltre’s throw in the 3rd was probably related again to the hand issues he’s had off & on. They are looking forward to the expanded rosters, and she says that Sean White has been streched out in Tacoma to be a long man when he comes back. oh joy.
At this point, J.J. has to pitch just to “get his work in.” Actually, you could have said that any of the last three games. Numerous situations have presented themselves where J.J. could “get his work in” during situations that really mattered. Now I’d bet he’ll wind up pitching tomorrow in the last inning of a lopsided game. What complete lack of foresight.
So did Jones really lay down a sac bunt on a 3-0 count?
Count me fully onboard both the Free Adam Jones and Fire John McLaren bandwagons. This game was the last straw for me.
Ya, that doesn’t work with my class schedule Dave so I am going to need you to move that back. Yaa, great. Thanks Dave.
I might catch the end of it if I hurry back. Hope they have it posted up soon after.
Was it wrong of me to know something stupid was going to happen(pitch White) so I would rather read Voltaire then watch the M’s closely?
The bullpen has been overworked…
Part of the bullpen has been overworked, and part of it has had a week-long vacation. These two things are related. Really, it’s gotta be killing Putz that he’s been riding the pine for all of this.
21: 3-1
He should have been swinging away.
You think Grover would be sending McLaren signs from the stands.
Man, McLaren has done a cruddy job managing a bullpen. I mean, what the heck are you saving Putz for?? The only legit reason could be he pulled a muscle and the staff decided not to tell anyone. Tied game, bottom 9th, bases loaded, with 2 outs, in the midst of a 5 game losing streak, it wouldn’t hurt to bring in Putz to put an end to it and give them M’s a chance to win.
Now to think about it, Hargrove did a better job than McLaren did with the Bullpen. I wish Hargrove didn’t quit now, i know he wasn’t the best, but he would sure be an improvement to McLaren.
But hey look on the brightside, maybe tomorrow Rick White will be DFA. But i won’t get my hopes up.
Please Dave, bash McLaren tomorrow on the Groz. Let the non-bloggers realize what an idiot he is and how we would do better without him.
Do you thin Girardi would be interested in managing? I mean, if the Yankmes do make the playoffs and etc., Torre will probably keep his job, and Girardi won’t hold out for the Yankme job. Seriously, he lead the Marlins who were predicted to be the worst team in the league to somewhat-contention. And now this year they have the same team, new manager, and look where they are, the cellar, where they were predicted to be last year, but not this year. Imagine the possibilities of someone like Girardi coaching a team with a reasonable budget for players. I don’t know about Bavasi, how do you guys feel about him?
So does Adam Jones get another start tomorrow? It would be the first good thing McLaren can do.
#20– Huytler talked about that, and Norm agreed– he didn’t seem to think that getting up and throwing during one of the games this week was really going to get the rust off.
he also thinks Anaheim’s bullpen should be just fine down the stretch as their starters have been giving the bullpen lots of rest this season…
McLaren is in over his head. A good manager never gets in the position where he leaves himself with Rick White as his only option in the ninth inning of a game.
26: Yeah DFA White so the M’s can sign another token bad veteran reliever.
Vidro’s BABIP is back to earth so no surprise there with him going cold.
I bet McLaren finds away not to start Broussard somehow.
Can we get some good old manager bashing quotes from Guillen or any players? I think I need that right now, whiskey stopped working.
John McLaren’s ineptness has become indefensible. How anyone can support this man as manager is beyond me. He is perhaps the worst strategist ever to manage a professional baseball club.
I’ve always thought the best approach to choosing pitchers, aside from the situational stuff like leveraging for individual matchups, is to use the best guy you’ve got at the time. Why save a guy for a situation that might not come up when he has a chance to produce for you now? When you don’t use this strategy, you end up with dominant pitchers sitting on the bench while some fat chump loses the game. Good thing we saved Putz…he really came through in that next inning that never happened.
So I hear tomorrow Mac is giving the regulars a day off. Without Sexson available, we won’t have a chance to win anyway. So he’s starting WFB at third, Vidro at second, DHing Ichiro, Broussard in center, and Lopez at first. Oh yeah, and Rick White is starting to give the starters a rest over this long stretch.
sad to listen to Norm defend Richard F. White’s Veteran-ness.
What about nolan ryan? He doesn’t require a walker quite yet does he?
Tonight’s 9th inning alone demonstrates the utter incompetence and possible mental instability of McLaren. Having Jones, a guy with very good HR power and gap power, a guy who’s hit a solo HR and driven in another run in the game already, sac bunt in that situation is terrible judgement. Bringing in Rick Motherf***ing White with the game on the line again is just sheer madness. The definition of insanity? Doing the same dumbass thing over and over and expecting different results.
35:
The Sheriff is just proactively setting the table for his next comeback. Who cares that his arm might fall right off if he threw another professional pitch? His value lies in his veteran-ness anyway.
36: Or Dennis Martinez El Presidente? or maybe pay Orel Hershisher enough money to leave ESPN to come back and pitch?
30 - Ehh, yea, it seems like managaement are going to keep rolling the dice on cruddy veteran relievers until they hit the jackpot.
34 - I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the lineup. :X
Agreed. There’s no defense for this. When you’re tied in the bottom of the 9th, after making a gutsy comeback, you don’t think. You bring in your closer/best reliever and you give yourself the best chance to win. You don’t bring in the guy who cleared waivers in late August. JJ was fresh, and could still have pitched tomorrow. Unbelievable . . . other than the fact that I can believe it.
34 I would assume “Broussard in center” was an error, but McLaren is probably going to do exactly that. Jones will play catcher. Jamie Burke in left. Broussard will cover right field too, so Guillen can rest. And a monkey named Ferdinand will play short stop. The tribe will never see it comin’.
Rob Bell and Paul Shuey are both available.
WWRT Norm– that veteran experience which allows you to not panic in tough situations only goes so far when you can’t pitch for crap.
What is the logic (if any) behind McLaren’s fascination with “Proven Veterans”?
Is it just the case that he simply doesn’t trust younger players in the heat of a pennant chase?
When in doubt, always go with the old guy seems to be McLaren’s philosophy.
42 - the tribe won’t see it because the M’s aren’t playing the tribe tomorrow.
If the bullpen is really that tired just leave HoRam out there for 160 pitches and give everyone the night off. Call up someone from AAA for a series a piece to throw junk innings or something like that.
DO NOT keep using everyone in your bullpen every night in the wrong situations then complain they are tired. They can throw 2-3 innings. Take the Indians for example. Bring in their best reliever and let him pitch 1.2 innings when it was needed, and hand the ball over to the closer.
[Piniella]
re: 44.
McLaren definitely seems to believe in Lou’s comment.
Ironically, in McLaren’s case, old guys may get him fired.
Dave-In your chat, make sure you point to the outrage BEFORE White made a pitch. I know Baker is already saying “start your second-guessing,” which is a shot at this blog and LL.
No one second guesses Johnny Mac…we all mourn his decisions in real time
Rick White with bleached facial hair. Yikes.
48 We can hope.
47- Ned Yost and Bob Melvin would like to strongly disagree with you.
47 Just to be clear, I’m not saying I agree with it. I’m a Dodger fan, so my enthusiasm for AZ is tempered, but Melvin’s done a hell of a job there. Wish the M’s would take some notice.
Actually, that last comment is for 52.
Is it really second guessing when at 4:46 in post #81 of the game thread I called him bringing in White to lose the game which happened approximately 3 hours later at 7:46? To me that sounds like knowing McLaren is a idiot and it wasn’t that hard to guess.
Many others followed my sentiment. 11 by my count made sarcastic or serious comments about White sucking and/or coming in to pitch in a high leverage situation. We are just way off our rockers aren’t we Geoff? Spell your name right…
If the Mariners played in Colombia, McLaren would have been shot months ago.
I think you guys are taking Baker waaay too seriously. I think he’s off his rocker about the White situation (and a few other things), but the hallmark of his blog writing is that he’s got a sense of humor. I think it was a joke, not a challenge.
I think Baker has a vested interest in keeping his press credentials. Plus if he can’t get coaches to talk to him because he puts things too clearly in the frame of truth, the Times will have to replace him with a pro-FO turd polisher.
Baker doesn’t mind pitching White in the most pressure-packed situations and hasn’t seriously questioned McLaren to his face about the constant mismanagement (not to my knowledge).
That leads me to believe Baker is the joke.
Let’s pick up Bill Buckner, add some veteran grit while Richie heals. Between the two of them, they will carry the team on their backs.
Oh yeah, and Rick White is starting to give the starters a rest over this long stretch.
I’ll say again, if Rick White starts, at least he’ll enter the game with a leverage index of 1.0 instead of something approaching Avogadro’s Number.
Honestly, I missed the game today, but looking at the recap, I’m just flabbergasted. What the effenheimering effing eff. It’s almost like McLaren is trying to blow it. Really, it would be hard to intentionally do something worse.
I missed the game. I saw the box. I assume JJ was killed in a bus crash last night… (???)
Baseball hurts me. I. wamt. to. die.
3.23 x 10^23?
Nice reference, 61.
For the non-chemists among you, Avogadro’s Number is 6.022 * 10^23..
Close, 63.
I had forgotten Avogrado’s number until it was posted, its been so long since i did chemistry. Wasn’t that times the atomic weight the number of atoms in a mole of an element or something? Lol, either way, Rick White is terrible.
Something dawned on me. Do you think Hargrove watching the Mariner’s poor play and McLaren’s terrible managing possibly motivate him to come back to finish the season?
If we’re looking for saviors, I’d rather look to Girardi than Grover. Let Grover have his read pick-up truck.
I just read where the Phillies swept the Mets and are now two games out in the NL East. Good thing Moyer got out of here before McLaren and White hit town.
Yes, I’m still bitter. Dave, will you please nominate “Gas Can” as Rick White’s family-friendly nickname on the Groz tomorrow? I doubt you can say “Rick Motherfucking White” on the radio..
That should’ve been “red pickup truck” above..
I suck. I blame the public school system.
I need an explanation to something please. So Johnny Mac is contending that Rick White was the only guy available because the bullpen is tired. Never mind the fact that JJ hasn’t thrown a pitch in a week…forget that glaring problem for a moment.
I understand and agree with the idea that the starting pitchers need to go deeper into games…more IP by starters = less IP by the pen = pen less tired. Duh.
Even though there are obvious situations where you want to go for a pitching matchup out of the pen, doesn’t Johnny Mac’s method of pen management contribute to how tired they are? Seems like he constantly brings a guy in for one or two batters, even though the reliever is cruising.
IF IT AIN’T BROKE, DON’T FIX IT!
In 1981, there was an NFL playoff game in Cincinnati which was sold out, so the local blackout was lifted. The wind chill at game time was minus 81 (minus 29 with a 45 mph wind). Despite the conditions and the availability of free television, only 650 people didn’t show up.
Bruce Matthews, Wisconsin ‘79, linebacker for Cincinnati, was asked to comment on the situation. His response: “It’s a stunning indictment of the American educational system.”
-wp, Wisconsin ‘82
Thanks for making me remember that, waldo..
70 - I’m with you there. I’m not surprised anymore by the way Mac uses the bullpen, but I sure as hell don’t understand it.
Adam Jones had the best game of his young and mismanaged career as a big-leaguer and carried a contending team in a very meaningful game, and McLaren and his new favorite Muff-Bearded Jugs Machine just pissed it away.
I’ve been trying to stay pretty positive. I think the M’s have it in them to hang close talentwise. But it’s becoming more and more clear to me that the talent is being wasted and it’s going to cost us a chance at the playoffs. I’m not saying “we’re done” yet, but I’m really close.
Even the past two days of using Rick White, I was pissed, but not absolutely shocked. Today blew my mind. Rick white had thrown three (bad) innings in the two previous days. Notwithstanding White’s lack of talent, it’s questionable on its face to bring any reliever in three days in a row, let alone the worst pitcher on your team. And Putz hasn’t pitched since the 24th.
I know it’s a ridiculous claim to make, but it seriously looks like McLaren is trying to lose games on purpose. That’s how inept his management has been. Today felt like a cruel joke, a mean-spirited kick in the nuts from John McLaren to anyone who cares about this baseball team.
I’m off to play BioShock. I need to kill something.
Yes, I’m still bitter. Dave, will you please nominate “Gas Can” as Rick White’s family-friendly nickname on the Groz tomorrow? I doubt you can say “Rick Motherfucking White” on the radio..
How about “The Flag”?
Seattle Superbad:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7505/seattlesuperbadym4.jpg
Dave — Thanks for the heads-up on the scheduling shift for you & Groz tomorrow.
Almost forgot that they were probably bound to juggle some stuff around so that Softy can have his obligatory several hours of pre-game Husky Honk.
Who do you think our best option for a manager for next year might be? I keep hearing Joe Girardi’s name being bandied about, but if we can’t get him, I’m almost tempted to see if even a guy like Bobby Valentine might be available and interested.
Well, at least the Mariners did good enough for a long enough period of time to get Ichiro to resign.
70: Well, hey, you never know with Sean Green…I mean, the guy’s got such a tender arm and all, you certainly don’t want him to record more than ONE IP per appearance — especially when you have infinitely WORSE options available! >:(
70: Well, hey, you never know with Sean Green…I mean, the guy’s got such a tender arm and all, you certainly don’t want him to record more than ONE IP per appearance — especially when you have infinitely WORSE options available! >:(
Well, it could be worse. He could be the second best arm in the bullpen who only gets to throw a single pitch before being yanked.
Methinks Rick White is not a real blonde…
Let’s try to keep this positive. Rick White probably doesn’t even crack the top five of “Most Hated Mariners Relievers.”
81 - Speaking of which, what would the 5 most hated relievers be? Wouldn’t Jose Mesa beak the list?
81 - Speaking of which, what would the 5 most hated relievers be? Wouldn’t Jose Mesa beak the list?
81 - Rick White may not crack the top five of “Most Hated Mariners Relievers”…but how about the top five of “Quickest to Become A Most Hated Mariner Reliever”?
82 — Bobby Ayala, Heathcliff Slocumb, others?
Wasn’t that times the atomic weight the number of atoms in a mole of an element or something?
Number of atoms in one mole of an element, yes. One mole being the amount of a pure atomic element needed to weigh a number of grams equal to the element’s atomic number (e.g 1 mole of Hydrogen weight’s 1 gram, though I think the offical standard is based on Carbon-12).
So, is Rick White’s nickname Mole, or Carbon-based-life-form (the latter because that appears to be his sole qualification for pitching in a tie game)?
Or is it Rick “The Bleach Blond Whisk Broom” White? Hey, I kinda like that - “Whisk Broom” White - he sweeps away your chance of winning.
Note: I do not blame Rick White. He goes into the game when his manager tells him to. He’s to blame for entering a tie game as much as Adam Jones is to blame for riding the pine too much.
I think the top five most hated Mariner Relievers are all named Bobby Ayala.
75- Rick White is waaaay to thin in that picture.
Those 90’s bullpens earned spite through years of mediocrity. Rick’s been sucking as a Mariner for what, a week? Knowing this franchise, they’ll give White amble time to catch up with the Ayalas and Slocumbs…
That being said, McLaren may have vaunted to the pole position on the “Most Hater Mariners Managers” list after this week. Even casual fans can’t look past or forgive his glaring mistakes.
#84 - What about Spoljaric and Timlin? I remember I was pissed they were Mariners at the expense of Jose Cruz Jr.
The only thing worse than having McLaren mismanage this M’s team is the fact that the F.O. will probably reward McLaren’s mismanagement.
Ineptitude reward ineptitude I guess.
87: My father still nearly explodes at the mere mention of Bobby Ayala. It’s almost funny. Almost.
*Ineptitude rewards ineptitude.
sorry.
Dave, pull no punches on KJR tomorrow. Please, be brutal. McLaren has got to GO. Be our voice on the air.
89 At the time I hated Timlin and Spoljaric too, but given the M’s needs that year, they made the right deal to try to win in the post-season. Cruz has never been a top talent and he’s the kind of talent you give up to make a run. Had the team not made the Slocumb deal and just let Timlin close we would have been better off. Timlin and Spoljarics’ WHIP’s were 1.22 and 1.37 that year so they weren’t total disasters. Timlin had 10 saves as well.
I like McLaren…as a bench coach. He’s a longtime Mariner, so I don’t want to see him gone. Just don’t want to see him (mis)manage the team anymore.
93:
Yeah, but the other side of the context coin there is we had had something like 90 LF’ers and it FINALLY looked like we had grown ourselves a viable starter for the position into the future. At the time it made me pretty sad as I was pretty excited about Cruz, and had even gone up to Everett to catch one of the two games he played for the Aquasox. Still have the Aquasox program and ball he signed for me there, in fact. I’ll also not forget how shocked and disappointed JC,Jr. was. He really was excited about being a Mariner, and given that he seemed at the time to be a potential star, it came across as quite a gutpunch to me in my youth.
So what search terms would I enter on this site to find the several columns Dave wrote about how the on-field manager really doesn’t make much of a difference at all in win-loss. I want to re-read that stuff.
81-85: Based on my outrage over his three horrid appearances, I really tried to work White into the Top 5 Most Hated list. However, it’s very hard at this point when he’s still behind such “legends” as Ayala, Slocumb, Mesa, Fossas and Schooler.
So this is two years in a row we’ve had a stake driven into the heart of our playoff hopes by inept management. Admittedly, last year was more of a long shot, but still…
My only hope now is that McLaren mismanages his way out of a job next year.
96 - I was looking over old articles and there were references to this as recently as when Grover resigned. I found those by searching Hargrove.
98 - Agreed, but given that management and FO changes are unlikely in the near future…what do we hope for next? A meltdown in Anaheim and NY? Those aren’t any less likely than upper level changes here in town.
97 - Fossas? Really?
Even though he sucked I don’t recall that much animosity. In a losing year. Surely the Big Unit swoon was the much bigger story that year?
And Schooler? He pre-dated my time here, but he never single-handedly blew a playoff run in a single week.
Okay, so I searched on evaluating managers. Just wondering, since the Mariners have been vastly exceeding expectations/predictions all year (whether under Hargrove or McLaren’s watch), and given that McLaren has managed his share of wins as well…how would he score using, oh, some sort of empirical quantifiable evaluation method (like the one previously referred to in the Chris Jaffe article) as opposed to what is passing for analysis currently on the McLaren-bashing threads.
96:
I think it’s corollary to Herzberg’s theory of hygienic variables…managers can’t do all that much to help the team win a game beyond basic facilitation of the team’s success through correctly using individuals, but they can sure as hell FUCK IT UP six ways ’til Sunday.
102-Don’t know nothin’ ’bout no “hygienic variables”, but the manager description sounds dead on.
I don’t know how McLaren would score on any kind of quantifiable model, but I really do like 86’s point:
I do not blame Rick White. He goes into the game when his manager tells him to. He’s to blame for entering a tie game as much as Adam Jones is to blame for riding the pine too much.
A manager may not actively win many games, but he should not lose them. McLaren has.
102: The crux of that, of course, is the part about “CORRECTLY using individuals” — which is something that McLaren apparently has no expertise in whatsoever.
But he’s a major league pitcher. He’s on the roster to pitch, regardless of WHAT situation he comes into. Bavasi came to Tacoma and watched the Rainiers for a full week, and he calls up Rick White? yes, it’s compounded by McLaren’s use of him, but this isn’t a one-guy problem. This is at least a 3 guy problem. 1 guy who put him on the team in the first place, 1 guy who uses him incorrectly, and 1 guy who isn’t performing.
I still don’t get it. I replay McLaren’s post-game comments in my head, and I still don’t get it.
You have to save JJ for when you get the lead? The game is TIED. The WINNING RUN is on SECOND. If he comes home, IT’S OVER. You have to do EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to get keep that runner from scoring.
And EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER means putting your best pitcher on the mound. Period. End of discussion.
Rick White is NOT your best pitcher. JJ Putz IS.
It’s like LaRussa not pinch-hitting Pujols in the All-Star Game, only LaRussa only cost the National League home field advantage in the World Series, while McLaren has probably cost the M’s a shot at the World Series, possibly the last one the M’s will get for a long time to come.
If I owned the M’s, McLaren would not be managing tomorrow, period. I’d rather wheel out Jack McKeon (literally) for the last month than have McLaren continue to pull this crap.
Under McLaren the Mariners are 24-23 having scored 232 runs and allowed 242. This despite having good Weaver, good Ibanez, and great Vidro (though lousy Lopez) who weren’t available earlier in the season.
Is McLaren the manager or the “interim manager”? Does that affect his chance of being retained?
The bullpen wouldn’t be overworked if someone didn’t insist on pulling each pitcher after 2 or 3 outs and thus using 4 or 5 relievers in every game. The Mariners actually found a manager worse than Hargrove.
106 - I was just agreeing with that point as part of a manager’s effect on a team (IMHO, not much on the plus side AS LONG AS they don’t contribute a big negative). Your point that there’s blame to go around is also right on.
White’s fault is his own performance. Once he’s in the game it’s all on him. If he isn’t physically able to go, then it’s on him to let the staff know.
McLaren’s fault in this instance is his decision to put White in the game. Putting someone else in may have had the same result, but we’ll never know that. We do know what White’s results were, and we can evaluate whether McLaren was holding JJ out “in case” they took the lead (…ummm…John? You’ve gotta survive this inning in order to be able to TRY TO GET the lead!)
And Bavasi apparently thought White was a good choice to call up. Either that or there were incriminating photos somewhere.
Just sad all the way ’round.
There is just no excuse McLaren’s poor moves. With that said, what are the chances that Rick White doesn’t pitch for Seattle again this year?
At this point, a better option might be to grab a Ouija board and see if we can somehow channel Billy Martin into that clubhouse.
Indeed. The Stomachs Are Churning.
Hey, whatever became of the meeting that McLaren had with some of his veteran players because he was concerned about the team chemistry…didn’t want it disturbed when they started calling up some of the youngsters?
I’ve gotta believe that the vets are putting a team face on for the public and the media and saying the right things. But behind closed doors they have to be wondering about the managerial choices right along with the rest of us.
“what are the chances that Rick White doesn’t pitch for Seattle again this year?”
Pretty damn high since the rosters expand on Saturday.
it seems to me like the bullpen (except for Putz) is tired, any chance baek or lowe are ready to come up and contribute? if not how long until they are?
Gas Can is one focus of our distress because his performance — even before he got here — betrayed no rational explanation for his being offered an active role in a major league bullpen. The worst team in an inferior league had had its fill, and our FO brought him into a pennant race to fill the “grizzled bullpen presence” role.
The Gas Can’s presence brings up several emotionally loaded (for Ms fans) questions:
1. Why, exactly, do we need a grizzled bullpen presence? I hear a lot about JJ being a leader on this team, and I’m happy to accept that but..
2. Why, exactly, has that leader been sitting idle through this crucial stretch?
If one of your team leaders is in the bullpen, does it matter how many times that player has riden the planet around the sun? Doesn’t JJ’s leadership role render redundant the grizzled bullpen presence?
2a. Wouldn’t a competent, savvy manager find a way to get him into one game of a 3-home-games-in-20 stretch, if for no other reason than to let the team and its fans get whatever emotional lift the whole AC/DC thing gives them?
3. How many times does a reject from this year’s baseball purgatory have to pour gasoline on the pennant fires of others before he works himself out of a job trying to defend ours?
Yes, it’s not Gas Can’s fault that he’s being misused (although I did have an episode today wherein recalling the David Letterman line “he pulled a groin, hopefully his own” led me to implore the heavens for a current Mariner to step up, take one for the team, and pull Gas Can’s groin, or drop a bat on his foot, or something).
No, his misuse is not his fault. About all you can blame him for is being unable to execute, repeatedly and spectacularly, in Avogadro-level leverage situations.
But Gas Can’s possession of a roster spot is on Bavasi, and his possession of an active roster spot is on McLaren.
I’ve got the CoolStandings playoff widget on my laptop, and over the last week I’ve watched its measure of the Ms’ chances for a playoff spot fall from 49% to 14.7%.
I find 14.7% an incredibly generous characterization, but I’ll use it because doing so reinforces my point. We’re in the midst (well, hopefully at the end, actually, but we’ll see) of our fourth major losing streak of the season, and we still have a 1-in-7 chance of making the playoffs. This team has already shown it can play through managerial upheaval.
FIRE BAVASI AND McLAREN NOW. Bavasi believes in the grizzled veteran presence, and McLaren has shown he will use said presence beyond all limits of credulity. Hire Joe Girardi, and let Lee Pelekoudas construct and run the team through the end of the season. They certainly can’t make things any worse, and at least we’ll have sane baseball men making decisions.
Playoff rosters are set tomorrow, August 31. Gas Can must be DFA before the roster deadline.
I cannot face even a 1-in-7 chance of a Gas Can episode in the playoffs.
Please. Spare me.
It feels like the rest of this season is a lose-lose situation.
a. Mariners perform outstandingly and go to playoffs = more Bavasi and McLaren. Not only that, but we would have about a 13% chance of winning a series in the playoffs with such piss-poor management..
Mariners blow it and end up 10 games back of the Angels and 7 back of the Wild Card. Bavasi and McLaren get fired, but we ruin what could have been a great season because of management.
It literally pains me to think about this.
Dave, please rip up McLaren on Groz. Pull no punches. Throw in some jabs about Bavasi while you’re at it.
In fact, write a lengthy article about how much we need a huge FO overhaul and get it put on a full page ad in the Times.
The only thing that will satisfy me with this season is if McLaren gets the boot within the week (yeah, that’s today and tomorrow).
[I] In fact, write a lengthy article about how much we need a huge FO overhaul and get it put on a full page ad in the Times. [/I]
I am willing to chip in a few dollars for that ad. If every USS Mariner chipped in for that ad, it could be a possibility.
Fire Bavasi and McLaren!
(Sponsered by USSMariner and its generous members)
wow i suck at HTML, sorry. lol.
So what search terms would I enter on this site to find the several columns Dave wrote about how the on-field manager really doesn’t make much of a difference at all in win-loss. I want to re-read that stuff.
My own take on the subject (which may or may not be related to Dave’s–I forget) is that there usually aren’t that many situations during the course of a baseball game where two given managers are going to make different moves. And even if they would make different moves, even fewer of those moves make a big difference.
However…the difference between J.J. Putz and Rick White is huge, especially in a difficult situation. I’ve seen other managers insert new pitchers into a bullpen, but that’s usually a guy they had to trade for, and usually he’s being inserted into a bullpen that has been struggling. And most managers are force-fed “pitching and defense, pitching and defense” from an early age, which makes inserting Vidro at second base rather perplexing.
I get the feeling that if McClaren went to the supermarket to shop for a really nice meal, he would just choose the most expensive food he could find, assuming that since it was the most expensive, it must be the best.
Can someone catch me up to speed as to where “Gas Can” comes from? Was it started here? I went to all three Angels games, so I have missed a lot of game thread action.
I don’t want to be one of those people who laughs at something he doesn’t understand (and I have been!).
60 - hey, don’t diss Bill Buckner. He was a badass
107 - I don’t know if this is really their last chance for several years. There’s no reason to think the team won’t be at least marginally improved next year (I guess there could be some bad FO moves but they probably won’t be worse)
I remember liking one of the Spoljaric/Timlin combo but I can’t remember which one.
And I agree that it’s not Rick White’s fault he was put in in that situation, but you HAVE to be able to throw strikes in that situation. I’ve never understood how a pitcher could walk someone when they knew walking them would automatically lose the game. LOB the ball up there and make them swing at it. It’s Kenny Lofton, for god’s sake, even a batting practice fastball isn’t going to be a hit %100 percent of the time, whereas any ball in that situation loses you the game. That’s completely inexcusable on White’s part.
120 - no he’d choose the one that had aged the longest, because that would be the one with the most flavor, even if it was spoiled meat that would give him dyssentary.
122: As for Spoljaric/Timlin, chances are it was Timlin — who at least was effective enough of the time to record some saves.
On that note, it’s too bad that the Red Sox are in contention this year. As washed up as Mike Timlin might be these days, I’d rather have him around as the “grizzled veteran presence” than White.
121: I believe it was me who coined “Gas Can” here. McLaren should want to pour water on the fire, but what does he reach for?..
Lets look at the bright side, guys. Adam Jones had an amazing night, guaranteeing his starting spot in the next game.
Oh wait we still have Mac managing. Broussard will start center because Mac feels bad for leaving him sitting on the bench too long, he is almost a veteran anyway. WFB will pitch and catch. Rick White will start 1B.
Hell, come to think of it, I’d rather have Barry “I’m Gonna Love Ya, Love Ya, Love Ya” White as the “Grizzled Veteran Presence” ™ in the ‘pen rather than Rick “The Gas Can” White!
127: You’re right.. Barry White’s been dead for four years, and he’d still be a better use of a roster spot than the Gas Can..
126: Actually, that’s not a bad idea to throw Willie out there to face a batter or two.
What could it possibly hurt at this point?!
129: Two words.
Jose Canseco.
130: Ah, so true. Not that Canseco was ever that great defensively, but he had none other than Kevin Kennedy to thank for his premature (and utterly unnecessary) move to DH.
All I want to know is how much are the Yankees paying McLaren to engineer such an amazing flop. A Little League coach wouldn’t have put White in there. Hell at this point might be worth asking the coach of that Georgia team if he likes his day job.
I used to think nobody could be as dense as Bill Plummer. Mac proves me wrong there.
Ah, good ole’ “Liquid” Plummer…still to this day amazes me how he could POSSIBLY lose 98 games with the talent he had on that roster.
My wife is not the hardcore fan I am but she started crying when White walked home the winning run. She knew bringing him in was bad, why can’t Mac?
Well, if they used even Ryan-Rowland Smith, they’d GET to extra innings. And he could have been used again in the 10th. And 11th. And 12th. Like…a long man.
I thought BoMel was in over his head and overmatched. Johnny Mac proves wrong yet again.
I miss BoMel. At least he has the D-Backs in contention.
Scott, I never thought I’d say this, but I miss the guy too. Sure he made infuriating decisions, but watching him with those D-Backs teams makes me wonder what if…
Plus, BoMel has the luxury these days of being able to lean on a stud like Brandon Webb every fifth day — which most of time relieves the team and fans alike of having to sit the torture of the bullpen’s “Grizzled Veteran Presence” ™.
LOL, the D-Back BP’s most grizzled “vet” is all of 27 years old. Funny how well they’ve done without bringing in veteran-goodness.
What bugs me most is how this organization has ignored a kid like Ryan Feierabend for grizzled crap. When they said there were no options to replace HoRam in the rotation does that mean they’ve lost interest in RF?
Actually, to be fair, Feierabend has done a fair imitation of HoRam at times this year.
142 - Ryan Feierabend was shelled one too many times. Again so has HoRam, but FO probably pointed Feierabend’s flaws for his “lack of experience”. He did pitch well against Boston, but did give off a fine Weaver impression against the Royals.
Yeah, Feierabend is not a good pitcher. I, too, like the kid and wish him the best. But he’s not very good. The fact that he was looked over is not an indictment of the front office. It’s just that he’s not a major-league pitcher. There’s only so far you can get on a good changeup and an awesome pickoff move.
But I hear your point: Rick White is worse than any pitcher involved in this discussion.
are there any good managers?
We nicknamed Bob Melvin Box. We called for the ouster of Mike Hargrove since day six. Hargrove left, we cheered, and McLaren is now somehow the worst of them all. THey can’t all be the worst. Which of the three do you want now?
What difference can a manager make?
Anyone disagree that Lou single handedly turned around this franchise around?
Sadly though who atop the Mariners organization has the baseball acumen to realize that major mistakes have been made.
As for Mclaren he is a great bench coach. The players love him. It is his biggest downfall. But don’t you think that if he had the qualities to be a good manager he would have gotten a shot much earlier than now? I mean 21 years as a major league coach and this is his first managing opportunity. If there was even a glimmer someone would have given him a shot long ago.
What a mind blower. I cannot recall a team in contention doing this before - picking up a crap veteran off waivers, and instantly inserting him into the highest-leverage situations within what is otherwise an outstanding bullpen. I would not believe it, if I had not seen it myself.
Incidentally, Rick White is also evidently not a nice guy. I leave near Cleveland and listened to their feed last night. White made a brief stop with the Indians, and the announcers were highly critical, saying he “made no friends while he was there”, “how does he keep getting jobs?” etc. Apparently he blew off pre-game interviews and was generally an inconsiderate jerk. As Ball 4 crossed the plate, the Cleveland announcers yelled: “The Indians win!!! And Rick White hasn’t changed!!”
Well, the fact that the media say White made no friends in Cleveland and that as an example they cite blowing off pre-game interviews — i.e., pissing off the media — doesn’t mean much to me. Teammate quotes would mean a lot more.
It’s really weird how the closer mania, a really recent historical development, has clouded baseball minds. When I’ve argued about this exact situation with people, I basically say, “It’s far easier to score one run, or a bunch, with the bases loaded and two out, than it is to score a run with nobody on and nobody out. If you have a great pitcher and an unreliable pitcher available, and you have a harder job and an easier job, don’t you want to bring in your great pitcher for the harder job and save your unreliable pitcher for the easier job?”
I wonder what the average leverage index been for White so far when he has pitched. I’d almost guess it has been around 2.0 or higher. Which, is mind numbing.
I’m scared to look it up.
To 144: I attended the Boston game. RF was dreadful. He was saved by Ichiro! who tracked down every blast, and there were a bunch.
151:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=456&position=P&season=
pLI (average leverage index per plate appearance):
White, in 4 games with the Mariners, has had pLIs of 5.03, 1.26, 0.98 and 0.19. Average of 1.865.
5.03 in last night’s game!
:( 
I hate McLaren. And Bavasi.
Team’s shouldn’t have to win despite their management.
single handedly?
um, Ken Griffey Jr., Randy Johnson, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Jim Lefebvre (and the 1st winning season) …
McLaren will probably be back next year. The justification will be something like: he only had half a season, he took over the team at a difficult time, he deserves a full year to show what he can do, he’s been a loyal member of the organization, the players like him, he’s a real baseball guy.
Just in case the FO dumps him, is there any reason to think they’ll hire someone significantly better?
I have a hard time blaming sucky players for being sucky. Rick White can’t help it, he just sucks, and seems to be good at tricking people into paying him a lot of money.
McLaren, on the other hand, has been working in baseball for a long, long time, and still seems completely ignorant of many seemingly obvious game management principles. That he thinks the “closer” is only to be used when we have a lead is unbelievable to me. You have to betray common sense and intentionally ignore overwhelming evidence to come to this belief.
I’ve loved the Mariners for almost 20 years now, but I can’t bring myself to call for ineptitude to be rewarded. They don’t deserve to reach the postseason. I’m not going to lie at this point, I want to see Bavasi, Mac, and Co. completely exposed.
# 134: the pitching.
121, 125 et al
The use of the term “gas can” to denote a particularly incendiary reliever dates way back to at least the Bobby Ayala era on usenet.
Noter this 1997 post in the Astros newsgroup.
So it’s like when I wrote the song “Mrs. Robinson” last week. Turns out Paul Simon wrote it before me 40 years ago.
There is nothing on paper that should lead anyone to believe the M’s are a playoff team. It just so happened that all of the elements necessary for them to appear to have a chance alligned briefly several times this season, but rationally, those elements aren’t real enough attributes to sustain themselves. They’re two solid starters from being that team, plus a decent 1st baseman, left fielder and DH. That is pretty much agreed upon here. It’s frustrating to watch, but that is why baseball is such a great game. Can they get themselves out from under this temporary insanity and make another run like ‘95? That’s what keeps us coming back, at least for the next week or two.
The way the M’s keep finding bad managers can no longer be viewed as a coincidence. Failure is endemic to the kind of go-along-to-get-along types the organization seeks out. This is an extremely corporate ownership and they look for yes-men in their managers. Lou Piniella didn’t go along so he was pushed out. We don’t need another manager or GM for that matter that is, to put it succinctly, a pussy. We need guys that the players don’t think of as buddies, but as bosses…guys they need to keep happy or lose their jobs. People keep bringing up Girardi’s name…is he a guy that commands respect and won’t be the players’ and owners’ bestest buddy? A big part of making good decisions on the field is not giving a happy crap whose feelings you’re stomping on when you do it.
I think the nickname “Gas Can” was originally a play on “Oil Can” Boyd.
oh, there have been so many relief Gas Cans through the years ….
speaking of which, for me, Mesa has a special place after managing to blow the Safeco opener
Either Putz is hurt or McLaren deserves those comments that question his ability to manage.
Most closers can work a maximum of three straight days; and then must have a day of rest.
Also, most closers can rest a maximum of three staight days; then must “get in some work.”
Putz has been idle for six straight days. Hmm!
Hopefully it’’s just managerial incompetence.
162: Actually, in the case of White, I think the nickname “Garbage Can” might be more appropriate.
159: good to know I’m not an original thinker in this regard.. the can, however, fits in this case..
152 - yea i was at that Game too, sitting in the second row from the right field wall. I saw the marvelous catches Ichiro made that day. I guess you are right, i was thinking of how RF held down Boston to only 1 run, but at the same time, if Safeco wasn’t so pitcher friendly and if Ichiro wasn’t playing center field, RF probably would’ve gotten shelled. RF probably needs a couple more years in the minors if he has any shot at being a major league pitcher
I wonder what was going the Putz’s mind as McLaren called in White over him.
161–So, would you be interested in the way Ozzie Guillen is blazing a trail right out of Chicago?
Just try imagining Ozzie in Mariner blue. You can’t do it. You simply can’t.
The city would explode.