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USSM on KJR an hour early
Dave · September 21, 2007 at 12:19 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Just an FYI, I’ll be on with the Groz a little early today – 1:35 pm out in Seattle. As always, you can listen here.
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28 Responses to “USSM on KJR an hour early”
IndieSnob on
September 21st, 2007 1:53 pm
Good job Dave. It was nice to hear you touch on the correlation of ERA with being backed up by a horrible defense.
Kaleb on
September 21st, 2007 1:54 pm
Well done Dave. I’m suprised you aren’t more strongly in favor of a Larussa to Seattle deal, even if it looks highly unlikely at this point.
Max Power on
September 21st, 2007 2:08 pm
I’m suprised you aren’t more strongly in favor of a Larussa to Seattle deal
I think Dave’s comment about him not keeping up with evolution in the game is spot-on. Back in the day, LaRussa was really an innovative manager, heavily relying on data to make decisions in an era where that didn’t really happen.
The problem with TLR is that he was never a statistician/analyst – he knows data has value but my impression from afar is that he doesn’t really fully grasp the concept that some numbers are better than others – to that end, he’s been opposed to incorporating any of the newer metrics.
Yes, he’d be better than McLaren by virtue of not being McLaren, but probably not the upgrade that some might think.
Kaleb on
September 21st, 2007 2:13 pm
And I agree with the assesment that he isn’t the manager he once was. However, what available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
Max Power on
September 21st, 2007 2:18 pm
…available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
Well, Miller Huggins is probably available and would be an upgrade over McLaren. Probably would be pretty cheap since he’s been dead for almost 80 years.
Seriously, it shouldn’t be difficult to find an upgrade over McLaren. He’s really not good.
heph on
September 21st, 2007 2:35 pm
“better than McLaren” = damning with faint praise
junglist215 on
September 21st, 2007 2:37 pm
If you go by the logic that the enemy of my enemy is my friend then Joe Girardi might find a kindred spirit with Bavasi.
Red Apple on
September 21st, 2007 2:43 pm
I seem to recall that Dave considers Girardi a bit of a one-year fluke, and also someone who’s very difficult for players and upper management to work with.
Wonder what it would take to pry Manny Acta away from the Nationals. He’s currently working on the cheap with a contract through 2008 with options for ’09 and ’10.
Karen was asking who available would be a bigger upgrade than LaRussa. It’s a reasonable question. There are some reasonable candidates, too, but if all we’re thinking is that anyone would be better, well, that’s basically what a lot of us thought about Hargrove, too.
what available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
Earl Weaver is still alive.
Max Power on
September 21st, 2007 2:56 pm
Karen was asking who available would be a bigger upgrade than LaRussa. It’s a reasonable question.
Yeah, I know – I would think there are any number of big upgrades floating around in the minors. I think as soon as you start looking for established track-record veteran-y types, then you are probably off on the wrong-track.
gwangung on
September 21st, 2007 3:03 pm
I think as soon as you start looking for established track-record veteran-y types, then you are probably off on the wrong-track.
Yeah, because the Mariner brass has bolted themselves to that track…(and are ignoring the oncoming train….)
Max Power on
September 21st, 2007 3:17 pm
Yeah, because the Mariner brass has bolted themselves to that track…(and are ignoring the oncoming train….)
Yeah, well there’s that issue too. The Mariners aren’t alone in that regard – I see that Norv Turner (established track record…of losing) is now the head coach of the Chargers. The love of the retread coach is very strong in all pro sports it would seem.
hub on
September 21st, 2007 3:25 pm
Which manager ‘should’ be running the M’s in 2008? Who are the ‘top-5’ candidates potentially available this offseason? Not just who is ‘likely’ for the Front Office to hire. Who ‘should’ they hire?
ira on
September 21st, 2007 3:27 pm
Ummm….Dan Rohn?
Man From Nantucket on
September 21st, 2007 3:53 pm
#15 – I’m afraid that ship has sailed.
gwangung on
September 21st, 2007 3:56 pm
And good reason, too…
Can’t blame the Mariners for firing an employee who was that insubordinate.
John in L.A. on
September 21st, 2007 4:46 pm
What would happen if one of us showed up for the game with a big “Dan Rohn Was Right!” sign?
lokiforever on
September 21st, 2007 4:46 pm
Did you have to bring up Norv Turner? I’m originally from SD.
I didn’t get to hear. Did Groz buy into defense and ERA correlation? God forbid, did anyone say FIP?
John in L.A. on
September 21st, 2007 4:51 pm
17 – Sure I can. At least from what I know about it.
Always nice when someone in power but incompetent manages to further damage the organization to keep a grip on their power. Bad management 101.
You see it all the time with insecure managers in any field. Get rid of people more talented than them instead of utilizing them.
John in L.A. on
September 21st, 2007 5:01 pm
19 – Don’t feel too bad. I’m a Dolphin fan… at one point we were lucky enough to have Dave Wannestadt and Norv Turner at the same time.
That’s like having McLaren manage the line-ups and bullpen and Hargrove in charge of aggressive baserunning.
Re: LaRussa. Boy, his response or denial or whatever you want to call it to the Seattle rumors was about as weak as denials get. Definitely made me up the probability of that rumor coming true.
[ot] on
September 21st, 2007 6:13 pm
[ot]
gwangung on
September 21st, 2007 6:17 pm
#20
Meh.
I’d never promote a subordinate who was badmouthing his superior behind his back. Even if he was a better manager. Shows questionable judgement and people skills.
It’s one thing to do it within the management structure—it’s another to do it with players and people outside the organization.
scott19 on
September 21st, 2007 6:45 pm
5/10: What’s ironic is that BoMel — who was Lincoln & Armstrong’s convenient Fall Guy du Jour back in ’04 — probably gets a trip to the post-season while Mac gets to tee up for his next round back home in Florida.
John in L.A. on
September 21st, 2007 6:46 pm
23 – People talk crap about their bosses. They do. Everywhere.
Ichiro talked crap about Hargrove, for example. As I’m sure most every other player and coach did. As they did about Lou and do about Mac.
The media coverage of Rohn seemed to be the difference.
It *seems* like Rohn got fired because Hargrove sucked and the papers were starting to speculate that Rohn was going to replace him.
So the result is, to me, that the team got worse so the power structure could stay intact. That’s bad management.
It’s also where it starts to really suck to not have a single, astute owner… no one to take Hargrove aside and tell him to make it work without firing Rohn.
But, hey, Bavasi is always happy to jettison talent at a whiff of attitude. Why should it be any different with coaches than it is with players?
Just crappy management all the way around.
And right now, the team would be better with Rohn. That’s the bottom line. The organization suffered.
Joe on
September 21st, 2007 6:47 pm
Did Groz buy into defense and ERA correlation? God forbid, did anyone say FIP?
Yeah, it sounded like he bought into it. Nobody said FIP, but they discussed the underlying concept like it was real, and important, and (should be) obvious — and what that meant in terms of seeing value in artificially inflated ERA.
The podcast should be up on the KJR site soon, so you can listen for yourself.
gwangung on
September 21st, 2007 9:12 pm
#25
Sorry, but I see it differently.
Grousing among fellow employees? No problem. Undermining the boss with subordinates and outsiders? That’s a no-no. And it’s something that NO organization puts up (and the ones that do aren’t that healthy).
You may want to put up with that, but I know that a lot of good organizations won’t.
John in L.A. on
September 21st, 2007 9:59 pm
Well, the M’s would be better if they hadn’t, so that’s one example of it being silly to let the management jettison talent to protect its own job security.
Throwing away talent should be saved for the most extreme of cases.
It’s real petty tyrant stuff to fire anyone who badmouths you. And really bad management.
Good job Dave. It was nice to hear you touch on the correlation of ERA with being backed up by a horrible defense.
Well done Dave. I’m suprised you aren’t more strongly in favor of a Larussa to Seattle deal, even if it looks highly unlikely at this point.
I’m suprised you aren’t more strongly in favor of a Larussa to Seattle deal
I think Dave’s comment about him not keeping up with evolution in the game is spot-on. Back in the day, LaRussa was really an innovative manager, heavily relying on data to make decisions in an era where that didn’t really happen.
The problem with TLR is that he was never a statistician/analyst – he knows data has value but my impression from afar is that he doesn’t really fully grasp the concept that some numbers are better than others – to that end, he’s been opposed to incorporating any of the newer metrics.
Yes, he’d be better than McLaren by virtue of not being McLaren, but probably not the upgrade that some might think.
And I agree with the assesment that he isn’t the manager he once was. However, what available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
…available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
Well, Miller Huggins is probably available and would be an upgrade over McLaren. Probably would be pretty cheap since he’s been dead for almost 80 years.
Seriously, it shouldn’t be difficult to find an upgrade over McLaren. He’s really not good.
“better than McLaren” = damning with faint praise
If you go by the logic that the enemy of my enemy is my friend then Joe Girardi might find a kindred spirit with Bavasi.
I seem to recall that Dave considers Girardi a bit of a one-year fluke, and also someone who’s very difficult for players and upper management to work with.
Wonder what it would take to pry Manny Acta away from the Nationals. He’s currently working on the cheap with a contract through 2008 with options for ’09 and ’10.
As if the M’s would be so bold.
Karen was asking who available would be a bigger upgrade than LaRussa. It’s a reasonable question. There are some reasonable candidates, too, but if all we’re thinking is that anyone would be better, well, that’s basically what a lot of us thought about Hargrove, too.
what available manager would be a bigger upgrade over Johnny Mac than Larussa at this point?
Earl Weaver is still alive.
Karen was asking who available would be a bigger upgrade than LaRussa. It’s a reasonable question.
Yeah, I know – I would think there are any number of big upgrades floating around in the minors. I think as soon as you start looking for established track-record veteran-y types, then you are probably off on the wrong-track.
Yeah, because the Mariner brass has bolted themselves to that track…(and are ignoring the oncoming train….)
Yeah, because the Mariner brass has bolted themselves to that track…(and are ignoring the oncoming train….)
Yeah, well there’s that issue too. The Mariners aren’t alone in that regard – I see that Norv Turner (established track record…of losing) is now the head coach of the Chargers. The love of the retread coach is very strong in all pro sports it would seem.
Which manager ‘should’ be running the M’s in 2008? Who are the ‘top-5’ candidates potentially available this offseason? Not just who is ‘likely’ for the Front Office to hire. Who ‘should’ they hire?
Ummm….Dan Rohn?
#15 – I’m afraid that ship has sailed.
And good reason, too…
Can’t blame the Mariners for firing an employee who was that insubordinate.
What would happen if one of us showed up for the game with a big “Dan Rohn Was Right!” sign?
Did you have to bring up Norv Turner? I’m originally from SD.
I didn’t get to hear. Did Groz buy into defense and ERA correlation? God forbid, did anyone say FIP?
17 – Sure I can. At least from what I know about it.
Always nice when someone in power but incompetent manages to further damage the organization to keep a grip on their power. Bad management 101.
You see it all the time with insecure managers in any field. Get rid of people more talented than them instead of utilizing them.
19 – Don’t feel too bad. I’m a Dolphin fan… at one point we were lucky enough to have Dave Wannestadt and Norv Turner at the same time.
That’s like having McLaren manage the line-ups and bullpen and Hargrove in charge of aggressive baserunning.
Re: LaRussa. Boy, his response or denial or whatever you want to call it to the Seattle rumors was about as weak as denials get. Definitely made me up the probability of that rumor coming true.
[ot]
#20
Meh.
I’d never promote a subordinate who was badmouthing his superior behind his back. Even if he was a better manager. Shows questionable judgement and people skills.
It’s one thing to do it within the management structure—it’s another to do it with players and people outside the organization.
5/10: What’s ironic is that BoMel — who was Lincoln & Armstrong’s convenient Fall Guy du Jour back in ’04 — probably gets a trip to the post-season while Mac gets to tee up for his next round back home in Florida.
23 – People talk crap about their bosses. They do. Everywhere.
Ichiro talked crap about Hargrove, for example. As I’m sure most every other player and coach did. As they did about Lou and do about Mac.
The media coverage of Rohn seemed to be the difference.
It *seems* like Rohn got fired because Hargrove sucked and the papers were starting to speculate that Rohn was going to replace him.
So the result is, to me, that the team got worse so the power structure could stay intact. That’s bad management.
It’s also where it starts to really suck to not have a single, astute owner… no one to take Hargrove aside and tell him to make it work without firing Rohn.
But, hey, Bavasi is always happy to jettison talent at a whiff of attitude. Why should it be any different with coaches than it is with players?
Just crappy management all the way around.
And right now, the team would be better with Rohn. That’s the bottom line. The organization suffered.
Did Groz buy into defense and ERA correlation? God forbid, did anyone say FIP?
Yeah, it sounded like he bought into it. Nobody said FIP, but they discussed the underlying concept like it was real, and important, and (should be) obvious — and what that meant in terms of seeing value in artificially inflated ERA.
The podcast should be up on the KJR site soon, so you can listen for yourself.
#25
Sorry, but I see it differently.
Grousing among fellow employees? No problem. Undermining the boss with subordinates and outsiders? That’s a no-no. And it’s something that NO organization puts up (and the ones that do aren’t that healthy).
You may want to put up with that, but I know that a lot of good organizations won’t.
Well, the M’s would be better if they hadn’t, so that’s one example of it being silly to let the management jettison talent to protect its own job security.
Throwing away talent should be saved for the most extreme of cases.
It’s real petty tyrant stuff to fire anyone who badmouths you. And really bad management.