Gold Gloves
Since I write about defense a lot here, I figured I’d throw up a quick post on the Gold Glove Awards that were just announced. Hopefully, you guys know by now to not take these things seriously, as they’re by far the biggest farce of any major award in sports. The managers just don’t take these things that seriously, nor do they generally understand how to properly value defensive players.
By and large, they just pencil in the same names over and over every year, leading to things like Greg Maddux winning his 17th gold glove today. Now, I’m not here to argue that Maddux isn’t a great defender for a pitcher – he is – but there’s no way he’s been the best defender in baseball at his position in 17 of the last 18 years. That’s just laziness from the voters and a reflection of how reputation, and not any kind of performance, is the main evaluative tool for managers when it comes to defense.
But, regardless of our misgivings about how these awards are given out, they still receive notoriety, so congratulations to Ichiro and Adrian Beltre on being recognized for their defensive contributions. I’m not sure I’d have voted for Beltre, honestly, and I say this as a card carrying member of the Adrian Beltre Fanboy Club, but it’s nice to see him being recognized as a superb defender.
And, just for fun, if I was voting, these would have been my selections:
Catcher: Gerald Laird, Yadier Molina
1st Base: Kevin Youkilis, Albert Pujols
2nd Base: Mark Ellis, Chase Utley
Shortstop: John McDonald, Troy Tulowitzki
3rd Base: Brandon Inge, Pedro Feliz
Outfield: Curtis Granderson, David DeJesus, CoCo Crisp, Andruw Jones, Carlos Beltran, Juan Pierre
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Utley, Pierre, Crisp? Really?
Wiriting in Pudge is a big sign of laziness too… I agree that Ellis (BUT POLANCO MADE 0 ERRORS!!1!!11!one!), Tulo, McDonald and Inge need recognition.
What about Adam Everett? Thought you were a huge fanboy.
Andruw Jones? Really?
I’ve wondered about Crisp’s abilities in CF. He generally got good defensive rankings in LF, but it seemed like most of his metrics were down last year when he moved to CF. (For instance, his .857 RZR last year was rather ugly.) Was last year just a fluke year, or have I not seen enough of the data on Coco?
What about Brandon Phillips? It looks like he had a good year.
At least Jeter didn’t win. There is hope.
No award for a pitcher, Dave?
Wow, the Pierre choice kills me.
The guy is quick which makes up for his horrible jumps and reads on balls and his arm is on par with Johnny Damon’s wet noodle.
Maybe I’m biased because of his contract, but it is painful to watch him in center every night here in LA.
Tulowitzki is right on. That kid made some amazing plays near the end of the season. Amazing glove and arm. I saw him throw out a runner at first while still lying on the ground.
#3: My thoughts exactly. Wasn’t he recently featured in a book as being one of the most overrated players in baseball (largely because of the steep dropoff in his defense since he packed on some weight to get more power at the plate)?
Baseball may never run out of Catcher Molinas.
Given that GGs aren’t particularly merit-based, I’m happy that Beltre won, seeing as he plays for Seattle, up here in the middle of nowhere on most people’s maps. Inge had a great year and I’m a little surprised he didn’t get the nod, but then the Tigers had a disappointing season. I’m just happy that ARod’s offensive numbers didn’t translate into him being on the list.
I wonder if Mientkiewicz (sp?) would’ve been eligible. He was such a bad hitter–I sort of though t the Yankees should’ve put a shortstop there…I mean, if you are inserting a guy JUST for defense….
I’m perhaps irrationally biased (and you won’t see me admit that very often), but I’m inclined to weight outfield throwing arms a lot more heavily than you have, Dave.
Utley, Pierre, Crisp? Really?
Yep. Utley’s probably one of the most underrated defenders around, while Crisp and Pierre are both rangey flycatchers who cover a lot of ground.
Andruw Jones? Really?
He’s not what he used to be, but his peak was so high, he could afford to sustain the dropoff.
What about Brandon Phillips? It looks like he had a good year.
Phillips would be right behind Utley.
What about Adam Everett?
He got hurt and missed half the year. When healthy, he’s still the best defender alive.
Coco Crisp, like most every other player, will have to deserve the award for a couple years before he’s likely to get it.
And I second #6’s sentiment. At least we didn’t have the risible spectacle of Jeter winning again.
I wonder if Mientkiewicz (sp?) would’ve been eligible. He was such a bad hitter–I sort of though t the Yankees should’ve put a shortstop there…I mean, if you are inserting a guy JUST for defense….
Hmm. Yeah, sample size alert and all, but, um, well:
Sexson OPS+: 84
Mientkiewicz OPS+: 107
Throw in the difference defensively, and I would’ve preferred Minetkiewicz…
Or, well, Mientkiewicz
Is Utley that much better than the Orlando Hudson, or are you penalising Hudson for playing only 137 games?
I’m always inclined to give the award to the O-Dog because he’s the guy who broke PMR in 2005.
So, now that Adrian has his GG, does this mean that Niehaus will finally get his Frick???
#9 It was Jayson Stark’s book, The Stark Truth. Here’s an excerpt that criticizes Jones:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2880979
Mike Cameron has slipped far enough to not be a gold glover any more?
Thanks Sports, Interesting read. That 100 fewer balls being got to is big.
Don’t take ZR at face value, which Stark does. In general, you can pretty much just ignore any analysis Jayson Stark does. Pretty good reporter, terrible analyst.
100 balls over the course of 162 games? Maybe not so big.
10: I think you’re right…I wonder if the Fabulous Catching Molinas were the first major leaguers to be cloned?
I just realized they finally stopped automatically giving it to Omar.
rotoworld’s take:
“The Giants and Omar Vizquel are close to a one-year deal worth a reported $5.5 million.
Incredible. He’s coming off his worst year ever and he’s going to get a raise.”
Beltran?
no Ichiro???
I am a little one-note about the guy, I admit…
but god, I am glad to not see Derek Jeter on the list for once.
What is ESPN going to do?
I hate to be persistent, but he’s my favorite player. Has Cameron slipped so far that he’s not as good a fielder as Beltran and Jones now?
Every choice makes sense but Juan Pierre.
The fact that Coco Crisp and Granderson weren’t winners is just one more nail in this award is dead meaningless coffin.
#30: Judging by bats a little, are you?
“Hey………….How’s is go-wing??”
Youtube that commercial, it still gets me every time.
but god, I am glad to not see Derek Jeter on the list for once.
What is ESPN going to do?
Talk about the injustice that Jeter didn’t get it?
No Torre, no gold glove shortstop, no looking down at the Red Sox in the standings. Going on eight years without a ring. It’s dark days in NY. Just a shame Seattle is in no position to take advantage…
Oh, and Molinas::Baseball as Marsalis::Jazz
Isn’t Juan Pierre’s arm like ridiculously weak? Does he cover enough ground to make up for that?
Isn’t Juan Pierre’s arm like ridiculously weak? Does he cover enough ground to make up for that?
Also, why no pitchers?
Also, why no pitchers?
Probably because it’s difficult make an informed, objective judgement. The pitchers typically get what, three or four chances per 9 innings (number pulled out of…well, you know where)? Since they get so few chances, there are so many compared to position players (way too many to watch on a regular basis), and I doubt defensive stats are of any use for them…I can understand skipping it.
What about pitchers? Also would you rate Tulowitzski in your future forty 1 to 10 scale?
That is, HOW would you rate Tulowitzski
I parse:
“The managers just don’t take these things that seriously” — yes, thats obvious. The Gold Glove awards are a farce…
“nor do they generally understand how to properly value defensive players” — Wait a second here… If you are saying that big league managers dont know how to evaluate defensive talent but you/Bill James/Baseball Prospectus etc do, then you are kidding yourself. Thats a ridiculous statement. I suspect that you have never managed a team at any level, so you have no idea what you are talking about or how to look at a player’s performance and evaluate him defensively.
JMB (#23): I think 100 outs not made translates into 80 runs. Tangotiger had this on his blog a few weeks ago. (Sorry I can’t do abbreviated links):
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/why_saving_a_play_is_worth_08_runs/
80 runs over 162 games is pretty huge.
Doubtless ‘big hawna’ thinks that structural engineers are worse at designing buildings than construction workers, since hey, those nerds at their computers have never actually built anything!
Did anybody get a look at Rob Neyer’s gold glove picks on ESPN.com? They’re impressively similar to Dave’s. Here’s how they stack up side by side (at some positions, Neyer either didn’t make a pick or suggested two people he thought were good choices)
AL Dave/Neyer
c Laird/Not Rodriguez
1b Youkilis/Kotchman or Youkilis
2b Ellis/Ellis
3b Inge/Inge
ss McDonald/McDonald
of Granderson/Granderson
of Crisp/Crisp
of No third pick/DeJesus
NL Dave/Neyer
c Molina/Molina
1b Pujols/Pujols
2b Utley/Hudson or Utley
3b Feliz/Feliz
ss Tulowitzki/Tulowitzki
of Jones/Jones
of Beltran/Beltran
of Pierre/Byrnes
For all that Ivan Rodriguez is an automatic and hence lazy pick, he remains an excellent catcher, doesn’t he? It’s not like picking Jeter.
What no votes for Dustin Pedroia?
Look at the bright side, Dave. At least now when it comes time to consider a new contract for Beltre, the Mariners are less likely to overlook the value of his defense.
Big Hawna: I suspect that you have never examined defensive evaluations at any level, so you have no idea what you are talking about. You’re several years late to the conversation, and making yourself look rather foolish in public as a result. Here’s a suggestion to avoid that in the future: do a little reading. If that’s too much then, at the very least, read Dave’s post on evaluating defense. (And if you’re going to join the conversation on other topics, there are similar posts on evaluating trades and evaluating pitching, all available from that “USSM Orientation” link up at the top of the page.)
Are defensive metrics perfect? No, of course not; there are several competing systems, and they’re all acknowledged to be less mature and less accurate than offensive stats. But they’re much better than you think them to be.
I beleive major league managers are farily good at assessing the defensive quality of their own players. Whether they proplery value the impact quality defensive players make, is debatable…many surely do not.
Yet it is unlikely managers take the time to, or really care to value the defensive contribution of players across the whole league. They are more interested in scouting hitting and pitching …things they can adjust to and counter.
Hm. I get the feeling that they can assess on a very, very rough scale–good, OK, bad. Being able to quantify or differentiate within those categories is another question.
In response to joser’s discussion of big hawna’s comments:
I think you are too hard on BH. The suggestion that managers do not “generally understand how to properly value defensive players” is probably overstatement (though I mostly agree with lokiforever’s comments on this). Both the “traditional” ways of “evaluating” defense, used by many if not most managers and GMs, and the sabremetrician’s more advanced statistical metrics have things to offer – things usually ignored or completely minimized by the other side. Like the “scouts and stats” continuum, there surely is middle ground, and those who find it will probably be rewarded.
On the other hand, BH, the statement you (and I) quoted above does not necessarily imply that managers know nothing about how to evaluate defensive players. Nobody’s saying managers have no clue about defense, or that only sabremetricians can properly evaluate it. Rather (at least as I read it), it is criticizing what they value. I think that fairly debatable, and easily something that those familiar with newer defensive metrics might suggest could enlighten things a bit.
The best way to evaluate ANY player skill (pitching, defense, offense) is with a combination of scouting and metrics.
Both have value, but a lot of major league managers don’t understand how to turn the (admittedly currently in their infancy, but better than nothing) defensive metrics into success on the field.
They work solely from scouting with a dash of “stats” that don’t really tell you anything useful (such as errors).
Which leads to things like Raul Ibanez playing left field in Safeco (yes, I know there were other factors but it’s generally agreed his defense is awful at this point).
(boy I sure like parentheses today)
Agreed, Jeff (and better said). (Yes, I like parentheses today, too).
This may sound like splitting hairs, but in this case, I think it’s an important hair to split.
I stated, and believe, that major league managers generally do not “understand how to value defensive players”. That is different than saying that managers don’t know how to evaluate defensive players. Small difference in words, but a significant difference in meaning.
I do believe that managers are generally good enough at figuring out who can play defense and who can’t, with some notable exceptions (Derek Jeter being the big one). The M’s knew Ibanez was bad in left field, which is why Ellison/Jones were used as defensive replacements. This isn’t news to them.
However, in almost every case, they have no idea what the actual impact of defensive performance is. There are literally managers (Dusty Baker, for one) who believe that great defensive players save more than a run a game with their gloves. That is, of course, totally wrong. There are also managers, like Mike Hargrove, who underestimate the tangible negative value of sticking guys like Ibanez on the field everyday, thinking that the offensive performance given by poor defenders make up for their shortcomings in the field.
They might both know that Raul Ibanez isn’t good in the outfield, but neither of them know the actual value of Ibanez’s defensive abilities or lack thereof.
By and large, major league managers (and organizations) get this wrong all the time – they might be able to evaluate defenders, but they don’t properly value them.
I totally agree with you, Dave. Except that the starting point for this discussion, the Gold Gloves, is an “evaluation” problem and not a “valuation” problem. I think there you have to go back to the argument that they’re just not taken all that seriously (and with respect to pitchers in particular, even evaluation is pretty much a lost cause).
I think it’s good to split hairs in discussions like these, and frankly I don’t find the Gold Glove itself interesting enough to talk about much.
But Dave says it well; a lot of managers can point and say “you defend good, you defend bad. Unga bunga.” but that’s as far as it goes; they don’t really understand how much Jeter’s poor defense actually costs them in determining the results that happen on the field.
It only tangentially relates to the GG discussion, inasmuch as it gives insight as to how the people voting value defensive players, but it’s an important point for baseball in general.
The teams that put a good defense on the field will be the ones that can not only identify good defenders and bad ones, but that also understand how to determine how much effect they have on run prevention.
Son, you just taking all the tobacco juice right outa this game.
From 54: “The teams that put a good defense on the field will be the ones that can not only identify good defenders and bad ones, but that also understand how to determine how much effect they have on run prevention.”
I think you’re missing the evaluation vs. valuation point, Jeff. The organizations that put *good teams* on the field will be the ones that really understand how defense affects run prevention.
The point was that most teams can already recognize good defense (evaluation), but don’t know how much it’s actually worth (valuation). You don’t have to be understand how defense actually affects run prevention to put a good defense on the field. But to properly value a player or team as a whole (offense and defense), you do.
this is so sad.
“… the team is hoping new pitching coach Mel Stottlemyre can help salvage a project of two. “We think Mel can help someone like Horacio Ramirez, who was one confused guy most of last year,” Bavasi said.” –TNT.
I don’t really think we’re that far apart, Eric, maybe we’ve gotten into splitting the already split hair again.
The general point I was trying to make is that teams are only going to be consistently successful in putting a good defense on the field (and by extension, a better team) if they not only know how to identify where a player is on the spectrum of defensive ability, but also know how to figure out how big of an impact that player has on their overall defensive results.
MSB, 57- I thought I was going to have to break that awful article news. The whole thing makes me shudder.
HoRam was confused because he thought he could pitch, and he was wrong.
One thing that has always annoyed me about Gold Gloves (and, similarly, defensive valuation) is that they are awarded by position.
First baseman really shouldn’t be receiving defensive awards. Albert Pujols may play 1B better than the other 1B starters, but isn’t that like saying, “Albert, out of all of the defenders whose defensive shortcomings landed them at first base, you’re number one – the best of the worst.”
So even on Dave’s list, Pujols receives defensive recognition, but Ichiro (a defensive god compared to Albert) doesn’t get any props.
I don’t think it was HoRam who was confused; it was Bavasi when he traded for him.
Well, having good (as opposed to bad) defense at first base is still significant; it’s just not AS significant as the difference between a good and bad defender at, say, shortstop.
i think that Kenji could have won just on his ability to throw guys out.