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DMZ · January 18, 2008 at 2:24 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Fortunately it’s not a Jones trade. The M’s signed HoRam to a one-year, $2.75m deal to avoid arbitration.
Pick your reason why it’s a bad deal:
– Taking a historically bad pitcher to arbitration after seeing him suck all year.
– The deal itself
– The fact that they’re in this situation at all after bringing HoRam in believing he was potentially a top-of-the-rotation guy despite there being no reason to think that was true
Ugh.
Practically speaking, you’re right – because of the way arb works, where a player’s compared to other cases with similar service time, it’s extremely hard to win those cases. The argument against the M’s in the Brian Hunter case, which springs to mind immediately, was “if he sucked so bad, why did you play him?”
If you take a player to arb, it’s essentially an admission that they weren’t that bad… and then you’re in trouble.
Further, the nature of arb, the all-or-nothing pick-an-offer decisions make teams extremely reluctant to go for the cut.
In terms of actual restrictions, though, I believe a player can lose arb and get a cut of 10 or 20% depending on circumstances that escape me right now.
What would it take in practice? I’d say….
– a really horrible performance
– an extremely well-prepared arbitration case by the team
And maybe
– an overly optimistic ask by the player side
I think the only thing worse at this point would be re-signing Weaver for another year, or worse, a multi-year contract.
Ok, what I don’t understand is, both Weaver and Horammible were comparibly bad. Weaver has since been shunned by the Mariners organization, and at this point, has yet to find a new employer. Horammible, not only is kept on the team, but given a raise for his terrible year. What do they see in this guy?
Oh yea, let’s not forget the $300,000 in performance bonuses DMZ overlooked.
Is it too late to switch my allegiances to another team?
I mean seriously, all this team does is throw money into a flame 20 feet tall, watch it burn, and then put so much spin on why they make stupid moves.
If someone could tell me what the point of having an absentee ownership like ours is, that’d be great. Because honestly, I just don’t see it.
52 The amazing thing is that sometimes Weaver was an interesting pitcher to watch, and when he faced a bad team, he was able to make them look bad. Ho-Ram’s starts, however, were pretty much just crap on top of crap.
So why not keep Weaver and dump Ho-Ram? Heck, why not sign ME to a $2.75 million deal? I know how to lose baseball games too!
53 I too wish that I was a now a fan of a different team. This is painful to watch.
Look on the bright side of things. Signing Ramirez is a sign that the Mariners aren’t going to trade away the farm to get Bedard. Ramirez has never pitched out of the bullpen–his career GS are only two less than his career G–so if they signed him, they must expect that he will be part of the rotation.
As for why the Mariners would keep Ramirez and jettison Weaver, the fact that Jeff Weaver is not only a bad pitcher but also one of the most obnoxious people in baseball may have something to do with it. At least (unlike the Tigers) the Mariners got Weaver to leave town before they had to start paying to settle sexual harrassment lawsuits brought by (female) team employees.
[Piniella]
Can we look forward to a best/worst 2007 offseason free agent signing comparison? And how would HoRam’s contract look on that list?
HoRam’s signing doesn’t mean anything to the Bedard trade. HoRam was going to be on the team before they agreed to the contract, whether they won or lost arb.
#55– just to be accurate, the suit was brought by a flight attendant, and Weaver was not one of the players accused of harrassment. Smoking pot, yes; harrassment, no.
59 – Is that why everyone refers to Weaver as Spicoli?
the suit was brought by a flight attendant, and Weaver was not one of the players accused of harrassment. Smoking pot, yes; harrassment, no.
Yeah, part of the suit was also that Weaver was smoking marijuana on the team plane, and there were other players involved in the harrassment (Doug Brocail, Greg Jeffries, the Detroit Matt Anderson, Bobby Higginson), but the judge’s opinion makes it clear that Weaver was one of the primary harrassers. Unfortunately, I can’t link to the opinion, because I can’t find it on any public cite–I read it on Westlaw. (2002 WL 1480800)
She was a flight attendant, but on a plane owned by Tiger ownership.
HoRam’s signing doesn’t mean anything to the Bedard trade. HoRam was going to be on the team before they agreed to the contract
DMZ, I don’t know as much about the Mariners as a lot of people here (I come here because it’s a great site, even though I’m mainly a Tiger fan), but that makes no sense to me. If he isn’t going to start, what are the Mariners going to do with him? He doesn’t look like a good candidate for conversion to relief pitching. I would have thought he’d have too much seniority to be sent down to the minors without clearing waivers . . .
Just a question for everyone, would this all be a moot discussion if we were talking about Santana instead of Bedard?
w/r/t HoRam, here’s my point – once they offered him arb, and spent all that time talking about their faith in his ability, you have to figure that he occupies some space in their plans, whatever it is — bullpen guy, long reliever, spot starter, 5th starter, whatever. They knew if they took him to arbitration, they’d end up paying him at least a couple million.
So HoRam’s slotted into a particular role with a payroll figure of 2.5-3m and it might have a question mark next to it.
Then they went out and got into the Bedard talks, with HoRam on the org charts, and the Bedard talks stalled, then HoRam signed.
The only thing that changed there is they removed the question mark about what HoRam might make in 2008.
But why would they go after another starter now with four-five guys in the mix for the fifth spot? They like Morrow a lot – why ruin his development any more than they already have and keep him out of the rotation?
Please cross-apply my previous comment.
65 They are trying to win now and don’t care about the long term development of Morrow. They’ve already stated that Morrow will either be the 5th starter or play a role in the bullpen similar to last year.
What you are telling us, DMZ, is that they made the decision to pay $2.5-3 million for a player for whom they have no ptrticular concrete plans, right? Or if they do, anyway, they are not discerable to informed outsiders.
My goodness . . .
Here’s more irony for you — Rafael Soriano, a better pitcher with more tenure who had a better year, is headed to arbitration with Atlanta after he asked for $3.4 million and the Braves countered with $2.4 million.
69- What would be really funny is if he lost. But all he has to do to win is point to HoRam’s contract. His hearing shouldn’t take more than 30 seconds.
A few years ago people were wondering if Bobby Ayala kept photographs of Lou Pinella in a compromising position, and that’s why Ayala was trotted out every few days to blow a save.
Ayala, the greatest villain Seattle ever created.
That would be a good rainy-day USS Mariner topic: Most hated ex-Mariner ever?
Besides Ayala, you’d have Ken Griffey, Jr. and Alex Rodriguez. Heathcliff Slocumb? Bob Kearney?
Regarding hated ex-Mariners: Sandfrog would have to be in the mix someplace. Also the C-man, another third baseman, who hit about .200 and whined about playing time and then complained more after he left.
#72: Griffey would be on that list?? I would doubt that after his return this year.
I know Bill Bavasi will join this list when the Mariners fire him or if he resigns (if that ever happens) and Woody Woodward and Mike Hargrove would also be on this list. But if we are limiting ourselves to ex-players, I’d definitely have to say among the top canidates for most hated ex-Mariner would be Jeff Cirillo, Heathcliff Slocumb, A-Rod, Bobby Ayala, Jeff Fassero circa 1999, HoRam, Jeff Weaver, Carl Everett, and everyone who was ever in the Mariners bullpen from 1997-1999.
HEY!!!!! That’s what FSN should do for their next sappy Top 10 countdown show!!!!!
“Top 10 Hated Ex-Mariners”
Kevin Mitchell would be up there.
Horacio signs a one year contract for 2.75 million? This is good news! This means my childhood dream of one day pitching for the Mariners is still alive.
Since you asked; I am going to guess Scott Spiezio – in a landslide.
Jeff Smulyan
What you are telling us, DMZ, is that they made the decision to pay $2.5-3 million for a player for whom they have no ptrticular concrete plans, right? Or if they do, anyway, they are not discerable to informed outsiders.
My goodness . . .
Yeah, I’m having a little trouble getting my head around this. Derek’s explaination makes perfect sense, even though the thing he is explaining makes absolutely no sense at all. How can that be?
I don’t know if it qualifies as hating him or not, but if I’d had to hear about Ryan Franklin being from Spiro, Oklahoma ONE MORE TIME…
#80: hahaha, I’m not sure Oklahoma is in good graces with Western Washington these days to begin with.
Of course Franklin could be on the list for all the home runs he gave up combined with his positive steroids test.
I’d have to go with ARod on the hate question. If the battle of Armageddon was decided with a baseball game, we are tied with the demon team in the bottom of the ninth, A-Rod is up with two out and three on, and the salvation or eternal damnation of every soul on earth hinged on ARod getting a clutch hit, I would boo him.
Way to play with other people’s souls….. BTW, that battle of good vs. evil was over a few mileniums ago.
Why do I have the sneaking suspiscion that the whole HoRam signing is just leverage in the Bedard discussions? “Yeah Mr. Baltimore GM, we don’t need your insanely talented strikeout machine! We’ve got HoRam!” It isn’t much leverage, mind you, but if it pushes us toward a better deal, it could be worth it (at least in Bavasi’s mind). Pehaps niether one has even called the other in three weeks and they’re just waiting to see which one blinks.
84
The HoRam signing is not connected to Bedard in any way, for better or for worse. See #30 and all of DMZ’s posts. The Mariners made the decision to keep/sign HoRam a long time ago and that $2.75 million was a good price.
85
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would describe that as a “good price”…
Which is why all of us agree that Seattle’s FO is not in their right mind.
Don’t forget George L. Argyros!
As ruses go, that reminds me of a scene in Braveheart where Longshanks plans some treachery…
hint: the Prince is like using HoRam as leverage.