Hey, turns out the M’s have a great bench
Remember when I wrote that post about how the M’s might construct their bench to help with the problems with the lineup and people said okay that’s great but none of that will happen because they’re going to take Cairo and holy mackeral is this bench going to be thin and unhelpful? Yeah? Well people were wrong!
The DH position was an offensive bright spot for the Mariners in ‘07, with Jose Vidro posting the second-highest batting average (.308) among DHs in the AL. With Vidro returning and the versatile Willie Bloomquist as an option off the bench, Seattle enjoys depth.
Remember when we had Corey Brock writing the M’s content on MLB.com and it was actually pretty good, especially compared to other MLB.com content, before Jim Street came out of retirement to take his job back when Corey moved to cover San Diego?
Yeaahhhh… that was nice.
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Say, what is Mark McLemore doing these days?
Let’s not ignore this nugget of wisdom:
“Willie wears so many hats that you don’t know when it’s best to use him,” McLaren said. “If you use him in the seventh or eighth innings, we might not have him when the game is on the line.
“With Cairo, we can use one or the other and still have one of them left.”
God knows it’s got to be either Willie or Cairo when the game is on the line…
By “enjoys depth” I assume he means “is standing in a deep hole of their own making”.
Oh, well. Whew. I was a little worried after all that discussion yesterday. I’m glad that’s cleared up.
The Mariners are so terrifically depth oriented that they have a professional bench coach for a manager. Now that’s commitment.
A $6M DH with a VORP of 24 is considered an offensive bright spot? The ignorance in our media and within our front office is astounding.
The best line from that article has to be where Jim Street implies that Jose Vidro is an “Edgar Martinez clone”.
Turbo (2007): .381/.394 OPS+: 110
Edgar (Career): .418/.515 OPS+: 147
Right. Good Call Jim.
Wonder why he didn’t point out how valuable it was to the Ms for Vidro to be last among DHs in BB, SLG and OPS. Or because he values the all important BA – why not mention his 6 home runs and 59! RBI.
It’s not like they can come out in the paper and say, “Jose Vidro sucks.”
But it would be nice if they could at least not insult our intelligence.
They are pandering to the common fan who thinks Raul is a good defender, Jones was “just a prospect”, and that Seattle is the favorite in the division now.
To be fair I think Street said that no one expected him to be an Edgar Martinez clone. I’m pretty sure he’s not stating that Turbo is an Edgar clone.
#1– McLemore is invited to be a spring training coach for the Rangers– dunno if he is going to do any more broadcasting this season or not; he was an analyst for FSN last year and I gather did occasional color work on some broadcasts.
I thought Mark McLemore was a pitcher for the Houston Astros?
Just because he keeps saying it, doesn’t make it true.
I just learned baseball-reference that Vidro’s nickname is “Cetty”. Which is more than I learned from reading Street’s column.
Go Cetty!
6 – Only one DH out VORPed Vidro and made less, Jack Cust. Vidro isn’t good, the trade that brought him to Seattle was terrible and Ben Broussard probably would have out hit him, but 24 VORP for six million isn’t a bad deal. Lucky or no, a .381 on base percentage is pretty productive.
I’m afraid he is.
When the Mariners acquired switch-hitter Jose Vidro in a trade with the Nationals prior to the 2007 season, no one expected him to be an Edgar Martinez clone.
But for the first time since Martinez retired in ‘04, the designated hitter position last season became an offensive bright spot.
#15 – the DH is the guy who is supposed to be knocking in the runs, not setting the table. No team will fear this line up as long as turbo is DH.
You can read it either way, and god knows which way he meant it.
I think that these paid writers usually try to find the good things about this ball club and just ignore the bad things. Same with Geoff Baker’s blog. Rather than acknowledge that there is obvious problems with our club, he uses the flip a coin 10 times analogy and says that’s why we play games. Also I like this gem from Baker “In the infield, you hope that Beltre stays Beltre, that the middle infielders continue to improve with another year of experience, and that Richie Sexson doesn’t kill you.” I can agree with most of that, except I am still on the fence about the whole Lopez thing, and also Sexson is obviously terrible at defense.
No. He’s calling the DH position “an offensive bright spot”. Street would have to be a damned fool to really think Vidro is an “Edgar Martinez clone”. I don’t agree with a lot of what he writes, but I don’t think he’s that delusional.
Without calling Jim Street and asking him it seems that he (along with most fans) weren’t expecting the second coming of Edgar. At least, that’s what my reading comprehension gets out of it.
I forgot to add, I think the reason they have to be all optimistic is because they need someone to help gives quotes and etc, to make their writing more credible. I think if all those writers trashed the organization’s stupidity like this site does, that the officials wouldn’t want to work with the writers. In turn, the writers go on to believe most of the crap the officials tell them.
By “enjoys depth” I assume he means “is standing in a deep hole of their own making”.
That made me laugh
It’s not like they can come out in the paper and say, “Jose Vidro sucks.”
Well, no. And this isn’t a paper, it’s mlb.com — so they’re not interested in anything except promoting the game. That would be like looking for serious criticism in the PR put out for any product. “Pfizer today announced a new drug that is not only less effective and more expensive than drugs you’re already taking, it is also more dangerous than taking nothing at all. Please buy it!”
Which actually raises a quesiton — who is the audience for mlb.com? Does this stuff get reprinted anywhere, or is it strictly for those of us so web-addicted and baseball-voracious that we’ll read this after we’ve gone through everything produced by the local and national media outlets?
Anyway, in terms of the assault on truth by Jim Street, this selective use of stats pales in comparison to the outright lies in this story, highlighted by the gem:
Now, that statement is going to provoke headscratching by anybody who pays even passing attention to the Mariners; I guess it’s a little too much to expect a “journalist” paid to follow the team to make the effort to check a reference confirming Ichiro’s career average against left-handed pitchers is .354
But hey, I guess “just might” is code for “we all know I’m lying here, but stick with me” and anyway, it’s Raul, so what’s .093 when it’s polishing the face of the franchise?
#17-
Offensive roles are not defined by position. The goal should be to have your best 9 offensive and defensive players out there. If the guy at DH is a table setter and your offense needs that role filled, there’s nothing wrong with a DH playing in that role.
I have emailed Corey like four times to tell him I miss his writing.
Having to read Street’s articles, while remembering Corey’s, is sort of like having your son go off to college and resorting to playing catch with your 8 year old daughter.
You’ll do it, desperate for any action you can get, even though you really don’t want to.
15 – Frank Thomas and Travis Hafner made less. There were only about 7 full time DHs last year, just because Vidro outperformed Sosa, Giambi, and Piazza it doesn’t make me feel better about him.
I guess I could say that the DH production was a surprise, but I would hardly call it a bright spot.
Great, now everybody in my office is looking at me wondering what I’m laughing about. Thanks.
Successful blockquote! I’d like to thank everyone who made this possible!
I can’t stand Bloomquist as a player. Another example of how Seattle overvalues its players when they are local. If they released Willie, he would be working at State Farm in two weeks. I am going to start calling him Joe Jarzynka.
25 – The Hurt made 10.12 million and Hafner made 6.3 million. Vidro made 7.5 million but two million was paid by Washington, so you can argue whether or not he made less than Hafner.
I’m not arguing it was a bright spot, I’m just saying that 24 VORP for six million isn’t a bad thing.
22 – If Ichiro and Wilkerson were not on the team, Ibanez would be the best true left handed bat vs lefties.
“The best line from that article has to be where Jim Street implies that Jose Vidro is an “Edgar Martinez clone”.”
Agreed. That had to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read from Jim Street, which is saying something.
“…no one expected Vidro to be an Edgar Martinez clone. But…”
…may not be a statement, exactly, but that’s a pretty strong implication. And “no power, no speed” is not a very good table-setter, even if you did want your DH to fill that role.
7
That would only make sense if he’s comparing Vidro to what Edgar would do RIGHT NOW after being out of baseball. Then, they’d be similar, lol.
29 – Scott Hatteberg made $1.65M. Ronnie Belliard made $1.6M. If you are punting defense, a mid twenties VORP offensive player can easily be found for less.
23 – “Offensive roles are not defined by position. The goal should be to have your best 9 offensive and defensive players out there.”
If the Ms were making up for Turbo’s lack of production at DH because they had A-Rod at SS, Chase Utley at 2nd and Victor Martinez at C I would buy that theory. But they’re essentially punting offense at 1B, LF, RF and DH already, which traditionally are positions where a player’s bat is more important than his glove. Power offense has to come from somewhere.
the frustrating thing is that mlb.com does have some good writers who do put out the effort, like Corey Brock, but seemingly could only put out enough effort to call up old Jim when Corey switched beats.
“I’m in a rut deep enough to hang up posters.”
Reading off a team’s website is basically the equivalent as someone who wants to know the truth about politics watching FOX News in a way.
Basically the bench is what it is until we know any better.
I guess it’s a little too much to expect a “journalist” paid to follow the team to make the effort to check a reference confirming Ichiro’s career average against left-handed pitchers is .354
My biggest objection here isn’t that Street didn’t bother checking his facts, but that his facts were so obviously false. Arguing that Ibanez is the best lefty-hitting-lefty on teh team based on his BA of .261 is laughable not just because it’s wrong, but because anyone who followed the team even vaguely closely would know both:
1. Ichiro has the highest career BA in team history.
2. Ichiro had a strong reverse platoon split from 2002-2006.
As such, he can’t help but be the best lefty-hitting-lefty not just on the team, but in team history.
I like the Turbo line from last year, a few more walks this year and he might just have a higher OBP than SLG, there has to be a prize for that right?
sigh.
Given that this team tends to be singles hitters as a whole and that we were a bit light on the power department last year, I don’t think a tablesetter is what you want at DH.
msb – again, you crack me up. Thanks for a visual as we go through the season to go with the clown car.
Was Mo Vaughn sitting on that bench?
I said this to Geoff Baker about Vidro:
“There is one thing I don’t understand, Geoff. Why do you put so much value on “hits” in general, at least in this post. You seem to forget about the matter of overall production. A guy who hits a home run ever ten at bats is far more valuable than a guy who hits two singles every ten at-bats. Homers are guaranteed runs, while singles can frequently be stranded and the runner not score. A DH is supposed to be a player Billy Beane would love – a power-hitter and walks a lot. Comparing Vidro to other DH’s is almost impossible, considering he alone is a singles hitter with a .300 average. The fact that most DH’s hit .250 and still produce more than the .320-hitting Vidro shows a flaw in your thinking.
Simply put, Vidro is a declining singles hitter. He has very little left in his tank and he is a below-average designated hitter, due to his inability to be a power-hitter, the most important skill of a DH.”
He responded with this:
“To answer a question from Taylor, also posed yesterday, I keep bringing up Vidro’s hits total because hits are still a good thing in baseball. Whether they are doubles, homers, triples, or singles, hits are hits are hits are hits. I used to argue this same point about Ichiro all the time when I was giving him my MVP vote. (No!!! I am not comparing Ichiro to Vidro. Obviously, one has speed and the other has non-speed.)
But hits are not a bad thing. Even if they are singles. They keep rallies going. They score runners from second base. Being a singles hitter also isn’t the worst label to have when your primary duty is to bat second in the order. That happens to be one of the toughest places for anyone to hit. Why? Because you have to make contact. You can’t have an all-or-nothing power guy in that spot. It would devastate the lineup.
Vidro is a professional No. 2 hitter and all of those singles, especially with Ichiro ahead of him in the order, can mean something in the long run.”
I don’t think he understands the virtues of power-hitting. He doesn’t seem to be able to grasp at the concept that our entire line-up (except Sexson and maybe Beltre) is singles hitters. Sure, we hit for a high average, but we still have trouble scoring runs because so many times guys get stranded on base because, although we hit two singles, on homer would have done the trick.
Excuse me, I meant “one homer” in the last line.
You know what ticks me off most about these articles -and Geoff Baker says it too – it’s the constant refrain that Vidro is a “professional hitter.” What the hell does that mean? All the hitters who play in the professional ranks are professional hitters. It’s probably supposed to mean he takes his approach to hitting seriously and produces results when it counts. But here’s the thing – if a DH position is the model position for professional hitters, and that is an appropriate standard to measure him against given he offers nothing in the field, Vidro is far, far from the top in most every category that counts last year, so he’s not a very good professional hitter, for the “position” he plays.
I am tired of the team now trying to spin Vidro as a DH success story (mostly by trying to talk down expectations)- though clearly the fact that his legs did not fall off when his rotund frame rounded the basepaths (or the fact that he didn’t require KFC to be waiting for him at the next base to encourage some quickness) is a success in a way. No seriuos injuries was also a plus – unless you thought that would have been a nice turn of events to make way for a better player . . .
The writer in question has a long history of not wanting to rock the boat. . . .
Taylor – I think your forgot that Ibanez has power too? Maybe? Other than that, good arguement with Baker. I don’t think he understands that someone who’s sole purpose is to hit, and being paid $6-8 mil a year, shouldn’t be a #2 singles hitter. Ichiro happens to be a good fielder and also can steal bases. Turbo just hits singles. That’s a very bad comparison.
Ibanez has power, yeah, but he hits primarily singles. His homer totals are due for a sharp decline, due to compounded injuries and the effects of aging.
I find it sad that what I most admire about our DH is that he’s one of the few Mariners who understands the importance of plate discipline. Not usually the at the top of the job description.
Research and facts are clearly overrated. Public image wins ball games.
sadly, it isn’t just the team; last season we read/heard a lot of national stories about what a great job Vidro was doing — especially when you looked at the ‘disappointment’ of Beltre.
I sigh again.
You know…the way I think about it is…
What would you rather have? A .300 hitter who hits singles? Or a .250 hitter who hits ONLY home runs?
Obviously, the latter. Now, what about a .300 singles hitter vs. .250 who hits only triples? You STILL want the latter.
Hopefully that might get the point across that slugging is an important component of hitting and why Vidro is lacking in that area. He’s not a professional hitter—he’s an incomplete hitter who’s lacking at a very important part of the game.
Bedard to start the first game, maybe the longest winning streak of the season will end on game 3.
And now Greg Norton is ours too!
Anyhow, I think Vidro is at least serviceable, but tossing around the phrase “offensive bright spot” is out there.
I’m really surprised Corey Patterson hasn’t signed anywhere yet. What a much needed bench presence he would provide, but he strikes me as a guy who would want to start somewhere to keep his stock high if he signs a one-year deal now.
Norton! Cairo! Cage match!
nd now Greg Norton is ours too!
Seriously? Where are we seeing this being reported?
Here is an anecdote about Street’s competence as a beat reporter. A couple of days ago he was on XM radio with Chuck Wilson. Street, whose job it is to cover the M’s, admitted to knowing little to nothing about Tillman, Butler, and Mickolio and could offer Wilson and the listeners no info or insight about their ability or potential.
He also thought that this lefty named Jimenez might compete for a spot in the bullpen. Street was unable to recall his first name (it’s Cesar, Jim), and I believe referred to him as Julio.
MLB.com’s M’s beat reporter knows less than any of us commenting here. That was embarrassing. He sounded some doofus fan calling in to a radio show and succeeded only in making himself look foolish.
It’s on http://www.seattlemariners.com. Minor league deal.
We’re better with Morse than Norton.
Although Geoff Baker is still better then Pocket Lint he is quickly losing my respect. 6 million for .314 .381 .394 or $400,000 for .256 .408 .504. (Jack Cust). Geoff must not understand “free available talent”. But, looking at the M’s bench for 2008, neither does Bavasi.
I too have emailed Cory letting him know he is missed. Not only was the content better, but he had a higher standard when it came to grammar as well. Street is awful.
Let’s see though, Corey has two choices, covering a competent, well-built team competing for a playoff sport year-in year-out in sunny and warm San Deigo, or covering a poorly built team, which constantly makes very dumb decisions, in dreary, cold Seattle (except the summers are nice and warm most of the time though). I guess from an outsiders point of view the choice is pretty easy.
When e-mailing Brock though, remind him that Seattle now has TWO ACES!!! O wait, so does San Diego, nevermind.
Woops, I meant playoff spot, sorry about that.
30- Um, wouldn’t he also be the ONLY left-handed bat then?
Hey, atleast Vidro is one of the better defensive DHs in the league. That comes in handy when ______.
vr, Xei
xeifrank, That is truly funny. Beer out my nose funny!
61 – I definitely think the high hopes we had for him have not been realized in the year since his hire.
From Baker’s blog:
So much for the silver lining of the Bedard acquisition meaning less of a need for as many relievers thus affording Morrow the chance to go down to the minors to work on becoming a starter. Looks like they’re still content to go the instant gratification route with him, too.
“Senator, you’re no Edgar Martinez.”
@53, if only there was some way you could measure the effects of both these players, your .300 hitter with no HR and your .250 hitter with all HR, or even all the other possibilities in between. Hmm, that would be neat, because then you wouldn’t have to make reference to these meaningless numbers that only tell a fifth of the story.
Oh, wait, there is a way.
The thing is, good arguments are (slowly) making their way into the mainstream, but incompletely. Baker knows enough to talk about how hits, any kind of hits, extend rallies, which is good; he’s getting close to understanding that On Base Percentage is Not-Out Percentage, the negative of Out Percentage, which is an important step in understanding how runs are put together. But he doesn’t appear to be getting the role of walks there (which are also not outs), or the role of Slugging Percentage, or the way the two interact when you’re trying to see where runs come from.
It’s simple, really; every run is the combination of not making an out, and then getting driven in. We KNOW how those components interact, and how much they are worth. The offensive value of Vidro is not a mystery.
It is absolutely true that a player can be good or even great if all of their value is in getting on base, or if all of it is in slugging them in. What matters is what the VALUE is, not the components. We know what that value is. Batting average doesn’t come into it at all.
Vidro’s wasn’t THAT bad, by the way; for Safeco those are almost respectable numbers. Well, almost. What’s worrisome is how much they cost, how they relate to freely-available talent, and how sustainable they are.
@23, offensive roles ARE in large part defined by position, since you are constantly comparing them to what you can get to replace them with. The pool of potential DHs is infinite; you could replace Vidro at DH with any shortstop, any pitcher, even a man with one leg, without hurting the team defensively. But a shortstop who hit exactly like Vidro would be immensely more valuable than Vidro, because Vidro can’t play shortstop, so you have to find someone else.
There actually is some twisted logic in what Baker says about hits being valuable. Look at the game a little differently. You have 27 outs to give. Batters who don’t create outs are valuable. If you field a team of guys with high OBP you can score a lot of runs playing station to station baseball. I’m pretty sure DMZ ran some sims a few years back on what a team of Ichiro’s would be expected to score over a season and the results were quite high.
The M’s problem is that they don’t have a coherent offensive strategy. When you have a bunch of black holes on your team that have extremely low OBP, you can’t afford to play station to station. That’s why Vidro is a bad DH for this team. Well, that and the fact that he’s extremely unlikely to duplicate his numbers from 2007.
It’s very unlikely that Baker or Street were even thinking along these lines. I just wanted to point out that you could possibly build a decent offense with a bunch of these types of players.
But hits are not the negative of outs — reaching base is. Looking at hits without looking at walks is like only looking at your cash spending and ignoring your debit and credit card expenses when trying to figure out how much money you’re going through.
Of course hits are the negative of outs. A hit is reaching base, which by definition means not making an out.
How a player avoids making an out doesn’t really matter (exceptions are those events that cause other players to be put out and are thus not rewarded in said players stats). The act of not making an out is a valuable event and if it can be repeated is a valuable skill set.
74 – I think you are incorrect. I agree with Steve T on this one. Out = not on base. Reaching base = on base.
Please explain how a hit can equal an out then because that’s the only way that a hit isn’t the opposite of an out.
Reaching base consists of a walk, hit by pitch or a hit. All of them are not equal to outs. Which means a hit is not equal to an out.
What I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter how a batter reaches base as long as that event does not generate an out. A high OBP that consists of a bunch of walks and a few hits is a valuable skill set. A high OBP that consists of a bunch of infield singles with no walks is also a valuable skill set, provided it can be repeated.
I’m not discounting OPS or any of the slugging numbers. A .380 OBP with a SLG of .600 is certainly more valuable a skill set than a .380 OBP with a SLG of .400. That’s not what we’re comparing. I’m saying that you can build an offense that scores a lot of runs if you have a team of low SLG and significantly higher than average OBP. This can happen because you have built a team that doesn’t give away the most precious commodity in the game, outs.
no, hits and walks (and other ways of getting on base) are the opposite of an out; not just hits
and “low SLG” would be a more accurate way to put “station to station” in that context
ignore the second line of 77
Places where Vidro is an Edgar clone:
* speed
* fielding
* batting average
Two negatives and one positive.
Places where Vidro is not an Edgar clone:
* power
* on-base percentage
* leadership
Yes, you can have a DH who is a table-setter, but you’d better (a) have a lot of the remainder of Edgar’s qualities in your position players; (b) get some speed out of him; and (c) not have a bunch of righthanded slow players coming up right after him to hit into double plays. Since the Mariners don’t have a lot of power or OBP anywhere else, Vidro runs like Edgar does now (and in fact is less encouraged to run flat out than even Edgar was because of his injury history) and have Sexson, Beltre and Johjima coming up after him all the time, this is a design nightmare.
metz123: Please look up the word “opposite” in the dictionary. Thank you.
Damn, I miss you guys. Drop me a line sometime: corey.brock@mlb.com.
other things Edgar and Vidro have in common.
they both grew up in Puerto Rico.
they both have hamstring problems.
they both have some good-looking kids.
they both have some good-looking recipes in the Mariner cookbooks.
hey Corey– at least you could cover both the Ms & the Pads during the spring …. just swipe one of the golf carts, and you’re good to go.
noun
1. a word that expresses a meaning opposed to the meaning of another word, in which case the two words are antonyms of each other; “to him the antonym of ‘gay’ was ‘depressed’” [syn: antonym] [ant: equivalent word]
As in “I thought he was out at first base, instead he was safe.”
The opposite of out is safe. You can’t record a base hit and be out. They are opposite events.
I’m outta this discussion. You guys can’t see the forest through the trees.
RE: #53
Your very correct comment made me recall an interview with uber-nice-guy and great player John Olerud:
Interviewer: “So, you lead the team (M’s) in doubles!”
John: “Well, with my speed, I turn a lot of triples into doubles.”
More players like that, please.
#84 — Actually you can record a hit that directly produces an out. I’ll let you guess what it is.
And anyway, I think you are a little unclear on the difference between antonyms and components of a related group.
And finally anyway, IMHO you only kill a defensive position on the roster with a non-fielding DH when the player approaches Edgarnosity. Turbo doesn’t make the cut.
More similarities between Jose Vidro and Edgar:
Both have two legs and two arms.
Both have two eyes and two ears.
Both have a mouth and a nose.
See, who says that Jose Vidro is not a good comparison to Edgar?!
Metz123 – The opposite of a hit is an out. The opposite of an out is NOT NECESSARILY a hit. The opposite of an out is either a hit, walk, or HBP. This is all that is trying to be conveyed to you.
I am going to jump in with a technicality. The opposite of a hit does not have to be an out. You can swing and miss and have it be a strike. I do fully agree that the opposite of and out is not a hit.
How ’bout this gem?
Standing to Ichiro’s right most of time in 2008 will be the veteran Raul Ibanez, recognized more for his bat than his glove, but more than just a decent defender.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080122&content_id=2352533&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea
from Stark this morning:
“It took the Tigers about 45 minutes to trade for Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis this winter. It seemed as if it took the Mariners somewhere around a century to trade for Erik Bedard. But now that this deal is finally done, Bedard and Felix Hernandez loom as the AL’s most terrifying top-of-the-rotation tag team. On the other hand, it tells you this team must be at least slightly flawed when one of its big spring questions is: “Uh-oh. How do we replace the invaluable contributions of Jose Guillen?”"
A hit is still more valuable than a walk. So two guys have the same OBP, the guy with the higher BA would have more value.
Wrong, because there’s more than one kind of hit. We like to call these “singles,” “doubles,” “triples,” and “home runs.” Batting average doesn’t tell you anything about the distribution of a batter’s hits among these types. If OBP’s are equal, the guy with the higher SLG is more valuable.