Barry Bonds, Seattle Mariner
It’s a little strange to me that everyone is so eager to say that the M’s won’t under any circumstances take on Bonds as DH. They’ve brought on Al Martin, after all, and Carl Everett, who was no PR fun either. They had Ben Christensen in the system, and he almost killed a guy on the field for no good reason.
The M’s clearly believe they can win now, and whether or not we agree with that, they could if they wanted sign Bonds, giving up only cash, and upgrade their offense hugely.
(Honey in Tutu cc-licensed from allspice1’s flickr stream)
Bonds, under various projection systems:
Bill James .284/.491/.588
CHONE: .272/.446/.558
Marcel: .257/.421/.488
ZiPS: .256/.456/.518
PECOTA: .235/.387/.447
All of them figure his play somewhat limited (300-400 PAs), which is obviously an issue. And his defense has been steadily declining (but it’s still not as bad as Raul’s). You could either DH him or play him in left, moving Ibanez to DH or wherever.
Whereas Vidro’s a .280/.345/.389. That’s a huge drop from even the worst Bonds projection.
If we take the team on their word that they’re close to the playoffs, then it should absolutely be worth it to sign Bonds and figure out how to make room later (Vidro as 1B? PH? Waiver-wire fodder?). It’s only cash, cash they’d make back if they made it to the playoffs.
Why not do it, then?
Is it more important to the team to maintain their steroid-free image? That seems unlikely, given the huge number of positive steroid tests in the organization. The damage is done. You could argue that Bonds is a particular lightning rod for bad PR and steroid criticism and hysteria, and there’s really no counter to that — he certainly is. He does and will continue to attract more attention than anyone else.
Is Bonds such a huge clubhouse cancer? Does the team really believe that the negative clubhouse energy from having Bonds would outweigh his contributions offensively, that a winning team with a good offense would have worse chemistry and thus drag itself down into losing, compared to a losing team with a bad offense that would lift itself up through the power of rainbows and unicorns?
And isn’t that McLaren’s job, to ensure that the team plays well, that its personalities are managed? What are they paying him for if they can’t bring in an upgrade like Bonds and make it work?
Is Vidro that valuable? There’s no way anyone can rationally believe that. Even if they fill the rest of Bonds’ time with a random AAA guy you’ll do better, and a lot better, and if you can keep Bonds in the lineup by being careful with his usage through the year, you could do quite well. Plus you dodge Vidro’s option.
Is the money too dear? No one knows what he’s asking for, but there’s no way it’s that much more than what they just threw at Silva. And Bonds would be a far greater upgrade. If this is the reason, every criticism that the team’s more interested in turning steady profits than truly competing is validated.
Is it because he might be headed to jail? There’s a ton of those guys, and they’re all at camp. Depending on the deal he’s willing to strike, you might be able to reduce that risk, but even if it’s a straight salary concession (you get him at 1y, $10m with the understanding you’ll be paying for his play in the penal league if things go bad) that contract is still a huge value if you get that half-season out of him.
If I’m honest, of course, I know that they’re not going to sign him, that they’re happy with Vidro and last year’s hollow high-average performance, and they think they can compete without Bonds. I know, I know.
There’s another possibility here, of course, that I haven’t seen mentioned, which is that Selig’s made it clear that what he’d really like is for Bonds to go gently into retirement, without another year of court battles and headlines. The M’s, as we’ve noted, have historically heeded the whims of the commissioner. I don’t know that we need that to explain why teams are passing, though.
| Team | DH | LF | Non-Selig reason not to sign Bonds |
|---|---|---|---|
| Angels | Anderson/Morales | Sarge Jr | Want M’s to feel like they have a chance — they’re so cute when they’re hopeful |
| Athletics | Cust | Brown | No money, rebuilding |
| Blue Jays | Thomas | ? | Given legal problems, Bonds wishes to minimize border crossings |
| Devil Rays | Gomes | Crawford | As long as they’re rebuilding, might as well be cheap |
| Indians | Hafner | Dellucci (?) | |
| Mariners | Turbo | Ibanez | It’s all about being a family experience, Bonds doesn’t say "family-friendly" to them. |
| Orioles | Huff | Scott/Payton | Angelos heard Bonds had some kind of degenerative hip condition. |
| Rangers | Catalanotto | Murphy? | (With Bradley out, I’m not sure how playing time will end up.) |
| Red Sox | Ortiz | Manny | No point. |
| Royals | Butler | Guillen | They’re cheap. |
| Tigers | Sheffield | Jones | Feel further offensive upgrade wouldn’t increase playoff chances. |
| Twins | Kubel | Young? Monroe? | Cheap. |
| White Sox | Thome | Quentin | Quentin’s a good player, and Ozzie feels Bonds wouldn’t sign on for new run-first, run-often strategy. |
| Yankees | Giambi | Damon | Already will be struggling to get Matsui playing time. |
| Astros | – | Lee | Not an upgrade. |
| Braves | – | Diaz | Diaz may outperform Bonds next year. |
| Brewers | – | Braun | Not an upgrade. |
| Cardinals | – | Duncan | Not a large enough upgrade to justify headache. Also, LaRussa known for not tolerating players with steroid issues. |
| Cubs | – | Soriano | Not enough of an upgrade. |
| Diamondbacks | – | Byrnes | Not enough of an upgrade to dump Byrnes |
| Dodgers | – | Pierre | They can’t even figure out how to get Kemp and Ethier playing time, they’re not bringing in another LF. |
| Giants | – | Roberts | Doesn’t matter. |
| Marlins | – | Willingham | Cheap. |
| Mets | – | Alou | They feel Bonds wouldn’t be able to handle the media pressure. |
| Nationals | – | Pena/Dukes | Cheap. |
| Padres | – | Hairston | |
| Phillies | – | Burrell | Stuck with Pat. |
| Pirates | – | Bay | Not anough of an upgrade |
| Reds | – | Dunn | Not enough of an upgrade |
| Rockies | – | Holliday | Bonds not the kind of clean-cut, good-character player they swoon over. |
The list of teams that have $10m to spend and could clearly use Bonds is pretty slim: it’s the Blue Jays, the Mariners, the Orioles, maybe the Padres, and the Rangers. The Tigers could use him in left, but they don’t have a lot of incentive to make that extra upgrade. The Orioles and Rangers probably don’t see themselves as in contention, and Bonds is probably a one-year stop-gap piece. So the Blue Jays, Padres, and Mariners — it doesn’t take much to close the market there.
The list of teams that might sign him if his price approached free is larger: the A’s, the Devil Rays, the Marlins, the Royals, the Twins. And at some point, if he’s near free, everyone can sign him and upgrade their bench. We can reasonably assume Bonds’ price isn’t going to go down to major league minimum, though, and so whoever gets him will have to see that they’re getting $10m+ of value out of that half-season, and that they’ll be able to justify the risk by making a run at the playoffs, which really does limit it to teams in contention.
The Mariners would have to come to their senses about how they value several players already on their roster, swallow a huge contract no matter which one ends up getting cut, and be willing to take a lot of public criticism all while not realizing they’re probably still a lot farther out from contention than they think.
So no, it’s not going to happen, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t help them win games this year.
Later: Griffey! Seriously! There’s no need to talk about Griffey here! Really! Stop! Don’t do it!
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I don’t think that comparing Bonds to the guys you mentioned is fair. Bonds is a national “villain” whereas the indiscretions of the guys you mentioned were far less well known.
Well, maybe my thoughts were a year too early then. I’m very conflicted on this. Yes, I do think he’d help the M’s win this year. But I couldn’t argue with those who’d believe that it feels like selling your soul to Satan…
Let’s not be dramatic here, guys. Bonds is not Satan. Whats-his-nuts from ‘American Idol’ is a national “villain”. Seattle would be a really good fit given the current direction of the team (at least, the direction Bavasi thinks they’re going), our financial resources and our generally laid back attitude (fans and press).
The guy seems like an a**hole to be honest, but who cares? Baseball has allowed much worse people to continue to play. He can still hit and maybe all that ‘good guy’ attitude from Ibanez will rub off on him.
I don’t think that comparing Bonds to the guys you mentioned is fair. Bonds is a national “villain” whereas the indiscretions of the guys you mentioned were far less well known.
Al Martin hit a woman. Carl Everett abused his kids. Ben Christensen intentionally threw a fastball into the head of a player in the on-deck circle, nearly killing him. Seriously. Bonds used PEDs. And Bonds is the biggest villain?
Doesn’t Bonds also have to want to come to Seattle? I was under the impression he wanted to stay closer to home.
Didn’t Shawn Kemp play in this town? Which is the worse human being?
They probably brought home books on dinosaurs.
Doesn’t Bonds also have to want to come to Seattle? I was under the impression he wanted to stay closer to home.
When the Giants visited, Bonds said that he would love to play in Seattle.
Doesn’t Bonds also have to want to come to Seattle? I was under the impression he wanted to stay closer to home.
I can’t think of a better fit for Barry — from Barry’s perspective — than Seattle, honestly. He’s a West coast sort of guy, the media pressure (though clearly still significant) wouldn’t be AS intense, and his bat would fit the ballpark perfectly.
To sum up a LOOONG post that I wrote (and linked to in my comment above) — it makes a whole ton of sense for both sides. As much as I hate him, I’d still rather see him in Seattle than in Anaheim, Oakland or Texas…
The only problem I have with a Bonds signing is that, while a tremendous bat, he adds to the DH glut on the M’s and does nothing to improve the OF defense. I agree that the M’s would be better with him, but there are (or at least were) better ways of upgrading the offense and defense.
#5 — Seattle isn’t that far away from SoCal.
It’s a little strange to me that everyone is so eager to say that the M’s won’t under any circumstances take on Bonds as DH.
Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong said in a meeting late last year with season ticket holders that they will not under any circumstances sign Barry Bonds. So, no, I don’t think it’s a little strange.
First, by all reports, Bonds is an affirmatively unpleasant person to have in the clubhouse, and the media crush he brings is distracting and annoying. He is, at least according to the Giants and their beat writers, far beyond Carl Everett or anyone else — he abuses the power that his greatness brings and puts himself first in all situations. While I appreciate that his on-field contributions are hard to ignore, this is one very rare instance where I do think “chemistry” has to be considered. All of that said, Seattle may have a sufficiently “veteran” clubhouse (and one used to the presence of a large media contingent, thanks to Ichiro) that acquiring Bonds may be worth the risk. I can’t see teams with a lot of kids in the clubhouse like TB or KC bringing in Bonds.
Second, I don’t think you can consider Bonds’ ability to play LF in calculating what teams can use him. His knees are in terrible shape and his defense has declined significantly. He can play LF occasionally — maybe once a week — but he really can’t play anywhere other than DH on a consistent basis. The last thing a team wants to do is bring him in, deal with all his baggage, and have him sit out half of their games due to injury.
Considering the foregoing, and reviewing your list, Seattle, Baltimore and Texas are the only teams that seem like a fit for Bonds. And with Texas already knee-deep in steroids allegations, I expect they would want to avoid having Bonds in their clubhouse, leaving Baltimore and the M’s as the only possible options.
I suspect without knowing that this is a classic situation of a GM refusing to admit a mistake. If Bavasi signs Bonds and releases Vidro or trades him for nothing, he’ll be admitting that the Vidro acquisition was a mistake. There are very, very few GMs who willingly admit mistakes like that, and I don’t think Bavasi is one of them.
You know, going with the whole ‘team chemistry’ metaphor, the Mariners could put Tug Hulett on the roster to negate whatever effect Bonds might have. Its like a sodium phosphate buffer system to keep pH neutral.
I don’t care for Bonds as a person but I do think he would help the Mariners win. And I would most certainly buy a ticket to watch Bonds play. I’m all for it.
I’m not one to bash Japanese ownership (I’ve never done so previously), so keep that in mind when I say this: is there some possibility that the spectre of Bonds surpassing Oh would be of more concern to this particular team than to any other?
Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong said in a meeting late last year with season ticket holders that they will not under any circumstances sign Barry Bonds. So, no, I don’t think it’s a little strange.
Uh huh. The list of things that Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong have said in public that turned out not to be true is so long as to defy easy reference or even summary categorization.
Bring in bonds now bring in Griffey in 2009, I want to see the mariners win and this seems like a good boost, forget the legal stuff, all that were saying is give bonds a chance!
I’m not one to bash Japanese ownership (I’ve never done so previously), so keep that in mind when I say this: is there some possibility that the spectre of Bonds surpassing Oh would be of more concern to this particular team than to any other?
Seriously, would they actually think this was a concern? At his current pace, Bonds would take 3-4 seasons to get there, and even if some team materializes to sign him for this year, I don’t think anybody imagines he’ll be playing that long.
Second, I don’t think you can consider Bonds’ ability to play LF in calculating what teams can use him. His knees are in terrible shape and his defense has declined significantly.
Bonds’ defense has improved since his knee surgery, and while significantly below average, he rates at least 5 runs better than Raul Ibanez.
There are very, very few GMs who willingly admit mistakes like that, and I don’t think Bavasi is one of them.
Actually, he is one of them. Bavasi scores high on the candid scale. His problems are with everything else.
He’s still a long ways away from Oh’s record. Oh had 868 HRs; Bonds has got 762. I can’t imagine Mariner’s ownership being that concerned with it. I feel like Bonds not being signed has more to do with Derek’s aforementioned reasons.
This needs to be done. It’s clearly not a big deal to hire a PED user, so clearly it comes down to personality. I can’t imagine that the players themselves (particularly the older ones) would choose to lower their chances to go to the playoffs so they could have a supposedly happier work environment.
It’s not like Bonds is going to force them to have dinner with him, he’ll be sharing an office for less then a year, with the benefit of a far greater chance at the ultimate prize. Assuming the price is right it’s a no brainer.
Uh huh. The list of things that Howard Lincoln and Chuck Armstrong have said in public that turned out not to be true is so long as to defy easy reference or even summary categorization.
I guess we’ll see but they seemed about as adamant as one can be in making the statement. I think you may be letting your distaste for their management of the Mariners (a feeling I share) cloud your judgment here.
I just don’t see why, given their long history of espousing one thing vehemently while doing another that we should take this one statement, no matter how delivered, as being worth treating seriously.
How about Piazza?
While I’m not surprised the Mariners aren’t signing Bonds, I am surprised Toronto hasn’t made more of a move. They do already have a full-time DH (Frank Thomas) plus a first basemen who can’t play anywhere else (Lyle Overbay) and a solid hitter who can only play LF, DH, and 1B (Matt Stairs).
But Overbay’s clearly the weak link, there. If they make Overbay the bench player, put Stairs at first, leave Thomas at DH, and play Bonds in LF, that team is suddenly a lot better.
And, if border crossings are a problem (and they might be once his trial starts) they could just keep him in Canada and play him only at home. And Overbay isn’t such a bad fall-back position.
Toronto should sign Barry Bonds. Canadian fans don’t seem to care about steroids, anyway. The NHL didn’t have any drug policy at all until 2006. Theoren Fleury was a junkie, and we all heard about it because he had to get sober for about a year to qualify for the Olympic team. But as soon as the Olympics were over, Fleury fell off the wagon, and was open about it in interviews. “Are you sober now?” “No.”
Thinking back, Stairs did play some RF last season, but the Jays already have Vernon Wells and Alex Rios out there, and they’re not going to sit either of them. Sitting Wells might be the best option available for the team, but there’s no chance they’ll do it.
I’ve long thought this was a good idea.
The team, justified in their thinking or not, is clearly in “win now” mode for 2008, and adding Barry Bonds to the roster would be one of the lowest risk and potentially most effective moves they could make to help their chances.
And, well, I’ve always thought that Bonds’s usefulness to the media as a convenient scapegoat for the entire PED problem in baseball outweighed any actual level of guilt that he has had, so I honestly could care less about that angle.
I personally found having Carl Everett on the roster far, far more offensive than Barry Bonds could ever be.
LaRussa suggested picking up Bonds to protect Pujols. Brass said no.
Bonds’ defense has improved since his knee surgery, and while significantly below average, he rates at least 5 runs better than Raul Ibanez.
But Overbay’s clearly the weak link, there. If they make Overbay the bench player, put Stairs at first, leave Thomas at DH, and play Bonds in LF, that team is suddenly a lot better.
Reasonable minds may disagree, so I’ll leave it at this: I don’t think there is any way Bonds will be reliable and productive in September-October if he has to play LF (and especially not if he has to play his home games on turf) on a consistent basis during the year. His knees can’t take it.
I can see how the M’s might consider the negative attention in the clubhouse (reporters swarming, Barry angry), as well as the distraction when trials begin to be a bad thing. They should weigh that against the increased revenue generated from thousands of fans who would likely come to the park just to see Barry Bonds (love him or hate him, strong feelings draw people to things – whether you want to propose to your idol or see the train wreck, people will come). Might you pay something to witness what might be Barry Bonds’ last at-bat, or, better yet, him being hauled away from the batter’s box in cuffs?
In essence, Barry Bonds is not only an opportunity to get closer to contention, but is an insurance policy to help declining attendance should the team not prove to be as good as the brass thinks it is. It’s a close call, but I think you absolutely do it if the price is 10mill or less on a one-year deal. Cut him loose if he’s a pain in the ass who doesn’t justify his existence with production. We’ve sunk many more millions into predictable failures. Why not take a chance with something that has a realistic chance of panning out?
I’ve thought Bonds is a piece of crap as a person for years, and last year when people here started mentioning him, I was thinking it would be terrible and I would have been embarassed to be a fan of the Ms…but now, with the improved pitching, the thought of TURBO trying to run out infield hits, and the hopes of the team riding on Sexy’s comeback, I have jumped ship…it would be hard to swallow and I’d take crap from a lot of people, but I am all for the team bringing in Bonds…I can’t believe I just wrote that…
Barry likes you, why wouldn’t you like Barry?
On defense, UZR had Bonds at -23, Ibanez at -30. PMR had Bonds at -16, Ibanez at -20. RZR had Bonds about 5 runs better than Ibanez too.
Barry isn’t that far from 3000 hits, thats always a seat filler.
Bonds is probably a 3-4 win upgrade offensively, maybe more if he can simply be plugged into the DH and not made to endure the wear and tear of fielding.
Can the Ms afford not to sign him for a 1 year deal?
And seriously, our media is filled with a bunch of pansies. I just don’t see a daily dose of tough questions from them.
I suppose it might attract some out of town media, but it wouldn’t be like 30 papers would send reporters to live in Seattle for six months.
Seattle Mariners – 2008 World Series Champs!
Barry Bonds, LF/DH – World Series MVP!
How would that feel? Honestly. M’s first WS victory. Barry’s first ring.
Would the whole “Barry’s a cheating jerk” thing really be an issue? Would it matter to fans?
I just don’t see why, given their long history of espousing one thing vehemently while doing another that we should take this one statement, no matter how delivered, as being worth treating seriously.
Well, yeah. CHowArmLinStrong would probably toe the Commish’s line pretty strongly, though, and if he’s off the Bonds bandwagon, then the M’s would definitely be too.
Selig’s made it clear that what he’d really like is for Bonds to go gently into retirement…
I get the sense that this may in fact be what’s holding the M’s back a bit. Plus that and I’m not convinced that the M’s are rational enough to see how a 43-year-old Bonds is a better option at DH than Vidro, and possibly even a better defensive option than Raul in LF. I mean, yeah, this is the team whose talent-recognition acumen is sooo huge that they not only trade for Horacio Ramirez, but they keep him around and give him a raise…
Still, Bonds could easily hit #800 and #3000 while playing half his games in Safeco. It’s the perfect park for his swing. My guess is that A-Rod is more vilified in Seattle than Bonds is. You better believe Bonds would put butts in seats – so for profits, too, he’d certainly help.
I’m convinced the Bill James projections have the league allowing fewer runs than it scores. They are optimistic an practically everyone it seems.
…Selig’s made it clear that what he’d really like is for Bonds to go gently into retirement…
Whoops — I don’t want to insinuate that you’re saying Selig’s telling teams directly not to sign Bonds. I forgot a leading ellipses.
Just to be clear — I know you’re not suggesting this. I do have a hunch, though, that it’s certainly possible.
Thanks for the clarification on Oh, guys. I should’ve done a bit more digging, my off-the-top-of-my-head recollection having put his total closer to 800.
Between court dates and possible incarceration, the only way I can see this as being worth the expense is if it was incentivized based on games played. Maybe 2.5 million for every 100 ABs or some such thing. That’s just off the top of my head, I haven’t really run the numbers.
I meant “based on time played,” not games.
Also, LaRussa known for not tolerating players with steroid issues.
That’s a joke, right?
For the record and as mentioned above @28, LaRussa suggested signing Bonds to management.
Do you even have to ask if that’s a joke? Really?
I would buy a Bonds jersey.
I don’t think the team will sign him because he did not participate in their bunt drills yesterday like Richie did. Sexson is a trooper.
[snerk]
well, of course, that’s because he has never had a player with steroid issues.
The image of Richie Sexson trying to bunt is a hilarious one.
Does he have to lie down to do it?
@45 Yeah, I should just have smiled knowingly. My bad.
Is it because he might be headed to jail? There’s a ton of those guys, and they’re all at camp.
That’s not exactly true, though. Bonds is unique in many ways, and his legal situation is just another. There’s the Mitchell Report, and there’s Balco. The “ton” of guys didn’t testify in a federal grand jury, so they’re not yet on the hook for anything. Bonds has already pleaded not guilty to perjury and obstruction of justice charges. How likely is it that any of the Mitchell guys will ever see the inside of a courtroom? Bonds already has, and is certain to be there again — possibly during the coming season. He can’t help your offense when he’s sitting at the defendant’s table; he can’t even work out to stay in shape. Even if he’s found not guilty, you may be paying him to sit around in a suit and then get mobbed by media where his quotes — “Barry Bonds, Seattle Mariners Designated Hitter, said after court today…” — will have nothing to do with how your team is doing.
check it out for yourself!
Plus that and I’m not convinced that the M’s are rational enough to see how a 43-year-old Bonds is a better option at DH than Vidro…
Yes, this is likely true. If Bonds took Vidro’s place at DH, who would bat, ah, “in the two hole.” Remember the M’s think this is a critical skill, and that Vidro is the only guy on their roster with it. Bonds clearly isn’t a two hole hitter, so he can’t take Vidro’s spot, no matter how many doubles and home runs he might hit, or walks he might draw.
But I agree that the “Bud wouldn’t like it if you did that” excuse is probably the real reason.
I did know the LaRussa thing was a joke. I was just surprised that he’s still so vocal about it. I used to have a boss who said people never change. Guess he was right.
Ichiro
Beltre/Joh
RAUUUUUUL
Bonds
Sexson
Joh/Beltre
Wilks
Lopez
Yuni
I can live with that line-up…too bad they won’t pull the trigger…
Bonds is the poster-boy for the failure of MLB to properly recognize the value of its own history. The league was happy to boost its fan base in exchange for trashing its history. I told my friends last year that I wouldn’t go to games if Bonds signed with the M’s and I’m not going to change that stance now just because we’re in better position to go to the WS…somewhat…with the Bedard deal.
Part of the reason the PED problem went so far is that fans looked the other way as long as the freakishly bulked-up players helped them win. I don’t want to watch Bonds continue to break records and advance those he already holds while playing for the M’s. I just don’t want Bonds and what he represents affiliated with my team.
Is it more important to the team to maintain their steroid-free image? That seems unlikely, given the huge number of positive steroid tests in the organization.
Well, it’s not exactly very consistent to say to your minor leaguers “We take this steroid stuff SERIOUSLY!!!1!!!” and then turn around and sign Steroid Poster Child to a contract.
Basically, the message you send to everyone in your system is “cheat, but don’t get caught, and we’ll gladly overlook it if it gets us wins”.
I can easily see that as being the logic at work here- plus, yes, I DO think Commissioner Selig has quietly said to all 30 MLB teams “Gosh, we’re not trying to collude here, but wouldn’t it be awesome if the stories were about the games this year and not steroids? Not that we’re telling you not to sign any particular players…”
Perhaps a year or two in Seattle is all Bonds needs to help his image. A few write-ups in the Times or PI; painting a picture of a changed man who, through the turbulent flames of the courts & media, perseveres to prove his innocence. The villain becomes the victim. A sinner becomes a saint. The ass becomes a unicorn. The gray skies turn to rainbows….
Somebody shoot me, please.
The Mariners should issue an apology for having signed Gaylord Perry.
I’m not going to get into a steroid flame war here (there’s BBTF for that), but MLB has a testing policy in place, Bonds hasn’t failed (as far as we know) and there are plenty of players who are on other teams (including the M’s and Mr. Morse) who either tested positive or have admited using PEDs. Lamar would become the best offensive player on this team, sans Ichiro!.
A pony for Bonds! And one for Clemens! And for Bud!
#54 – Seriously? Beltre Rauuuul Bonds? Why not through Edgar in there to be a base runner for your power hitter?
While I love Rauuul & Beltre like my own children, I don’t have any misconceptions as to their base running ability. We need WHEELS on the bases for the power hitter. Lopez or Yuni need to be in the top 4-5 spots.
I seem to remember the reception Bonds got when the Giants visited Safeco Field in 2006 was poor, but no worse than the reception he was getting anywhere else other than at San Fran.
I’ve rooted against him since his days as a Pittsburgh Pirate (I’m an old Braves fan). To suddenly be put in a position of having to root for him as a Mariner would likely make my head asplode. I don’t think I can do it…..
As opposed to OBP? Speed at the top is nice, yes. But not at the expense of the overall offensive production.
But according to Dusty Baker, getting on base without speed just clogs the bases!
Yuni and Lopez don’t get on base enough to put them near the top. Beltre is a pretty good baserunner in his own right. Betancourt is a career .307 OBP player. You need guys who get on base in order for said ‘power hitter’ to drive in.
If Bonds signs with the Mariners, we will get a special pony graphic created for him, and ensure we send it to the Mariners so he can see it.
It doesn’t matter how fast the runners on base when you hit a home run can shamble their way around.
I don’t recall Lopez being the definition of speed.
60- I’d wager that b/w the two, Beltre is faster than Lopez…
While I certainly can believe Selig made a little hint-hint-nudge-nudge he better have done it in a way that left no trace. Because antitrust exemption or not, any evidence would give Bonds a wonderful opportunity for a lawsuit.
Lopez and Yuni should be in the top 4-5 spots so they can have their wheels in front of the power hitter. I guess that means you’d bat Bonds 6th. OK.
Which one is going to bat cleanup, Yuni or Lopez?
This would make my year. So it won’t happen. Stupid Mariners.
Just read an article on Bonds…Seattle is mentioned as a team that could use his services…
Sorry…here is the address:
msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7841636/Bonds-playing-in-’08-would-be-bad-for-baseball
Alluding to an earlier comment in this string, I don’t think that anybody [who hasn't already] would criticize Bavasi for signing Vidro if he also signed Bonds.
The upgrade is so obvious that all of those who aren’t morally outraged by the signing would realize that the two players aren’t really comparable in terms of ability.
For example, if Pujols happened to fall into the Mariners’ laps somehow, no one would use signing him as a reason for criticizing Bavasi for signing Sexson.
I feel like this post was just for ME. If you put in Bonds and take out Vidro for 400-450 PA, what does it do for the team’s PECOTA or ZIPS projection? Obviously, by himself he can’t make an enormous difference, but those numbers low out Vidro’s.
In addition to the 10+ million bucks, wouldn’t a Bonds signing cost the Mariners their first round pick?
In addition to the 10+ million bucks, wouldn’t a Bonds signing cost the Mariners their first round pick?
I doubt seriously that SF offered Bonds arbitration, so no…
76 – yeah, I figured that right after I posted that question. Thanks.
Please listen to Joser (50); Bonds isn’t like other guys–he’s under federal indictment. He faces a maximum 30 year prison sentence. The circus will begin when the U.S. Attorney says it will. No matter what happens in PECOTA-land, Bonds plate appearances in the real world would presumably take a dive if he were behind bars or sitting behind a defendant’s table. And do you really want to read Art Thiel spewing about this all summer?
Secondarily, although it’s fun and easy to knock Selig on the PED problem (or anything else), the real villain is the players union. In order to protect cheaters like McGwire and Sosa, they effectively forced every other member of their organization to either begin taking or face becoming non-competitive. Fehr and Orza should be behind bars, too.
Pencil me in as one of the fans who would never forgive the Ms for signing Bonds. I loathe him with every fiber of my being, and would find it almost impossible to root for a team for whom he played. This is one of those times when I let my heart rule my head, since he would be a good fit skills-wise. I also don’t think A) the club is good enough to bother with a one year push, and B) Bonds will be available enough during the season to be a deciding factor in any event.
That is an astonishing over-simplification and mis-representation of the steroids era and the players’ union’s role in it.
Further, this is not a steroids post. The larger steroids issue is a flame war waiting to happen, and I’d like to avoid it.
Derek,
OK then, back to the first issue. Being under indictment is different than simply being accused of or admitting
‘using’, right? And that legal standing could indeed affect playing time, right? And not being available to play should be taken into consideration when assessing his ‘value’, right?
The stats make signing Bonds a no-brainer but Bavasi on KJR just said there is “NO WAY” the M’s will sign Bonds. As always, he states the clubhouse is good/positive/good guys and doesn’t want to add to McLaren’s job of the circus Bonds would bring. He also said the M’s “don’t like bringing in National League hitters” …
Hmmm … where did Turbo come from? You don’t think Bonds could adjust to AL pitcher? C’mon!
Of course Bonds is a Clubhouse cancer but that may be offset a bit now by the lack of interest from the entire League to sign him. I was at Safeco the first time the Giants played us here and watched you-know-who tatoo a pitch over the Centerfield wall in the first inning. As much as I’ve come to hate Bonds over the years, I sure wouldn’t mind watching him abuse the short porch in right for a season. Plus that, where else can we get a Lefty power Bat? Other than he who won’t be mentioned.
Did he really say the comment about not wanting National League hitters? We have Sexson, Vidro, Beltre, and Wilkerson was NL most his career. That is all of your hitters that didn’t come from your system or Japan Bill! Does Bavasi even know where he gets the guys that play?
Did I hear that right? Bavasi doesn’t want to bring in National League hitters?!?
Hmm.
Aurilia, Sexson, Vidro, Beltre.
Now, I’m a little slow sometimes so tell me where these guys came from again.
And we know this…how?
Because Jeff Kent said so.
Bochy talked about needing to change the culture of the clubhouse now that Bonds is gone. One player described it as a ‘huge weight’ gone from the clubhouse. You don’t have to be an Oncologist to figure that one out.
If Bonds’ case goes to trial the likely time table will be after the ‘08 season. Lets sew a scarlet letter “P” (for PEDS) on his uni and see if we’ll forget about steroids and start believing the P stands for playoffs come September….
Unless I misremembered what Bavasi said, he uttered the National League line. Maybe I’ll go listen to the interview again.
I heard another interview today about Bonds and OTHER than Jeff Kent, it was said that his teammates liked Bonds. They talked about how high his baseball IQ is and the younger players learned a ton from him.
Another bonus of picking up Bonds … you get Pedro Gomez. HA!
Well, actually, you do…at least from the scraps you’ve provided.
Neither of them are particularly conclusive that “Bonds is a cancer”; they can just as well refer to the media circus or the cloud of steroids on the clubhouse.
Again…how do we know this?
Well, there’s this story. I guess Barry Zito wasn’t too fond of him.
I did hear Bavasi right. Here are a couple quotes from Bavasi on KJR about Barry Bonds:
“We’re not comfortable bringing offensive guys, especially power guys, over from the National League …”
“We have our doubts what he could do in this League, it’s a tough league …”
93- I will finish the quote correctly for Bavasi, “We have our doubts what he could do in this League, it’s a tough league… Barry Bonds was only the most prolific power hitter in baseball the last 50-100 years or ever.”
That’s a cop-out if I’ve ever heard one.
Someone remembers Kevin Mitchell, but where was this thinking on Jeff Cirillo and Rich Aurilia?
Someone remembers Kevin Mitchell, but where was this thinking on Jeff Cirillo and Rich Aurilia?
Jose Vidro says “Hola.”
So I guess it’s no on NL power hitters. But hey, let’s go get all the mediocre/struggling NL pitchers we can. Horam or Retisima anybody? Maybe Bavasi can get Al Leiter or Dennis Martinez to give it another go. So what if they’re both 117 years old.
Let’s be clear about the things we know for sure about Barry Bonds.
1 – He is, and apparently has almost always been, a less than friendly person. Make that sound worse if you must.
2 – He is a winner. In 22 Major League seasons his teams have competed in the postseason 7 times. That is 32% of the time his team makes the postseason. Granted he has had some good teammates, but that is a man who carries his teams.
Who wouldn’t take those odds?
He may be a horrible person. Maybe he is a jerk about the way he demands complete focus and commitment from his teammates, like all superstars who work hard do. But he does produce, and if the 2008 version of the Mariners are averaging somewhere around 4.4 runs/game they will be sorry they didn’t utilize his services.
I know about the PED issue, but he was not the only player possibly using them. He just happened to be the BEST player accused of using them. He is the best hitter many of us will see in our lifetime.
I don’t think the Mariners will ever pursue the Bonds option, much less make it happen. But it’s basically disingenuous for an organization that signed Carl Everett two seasons ago and is about to hand Mike Morse a job on the major league roster, to blackball Bonds for his character or involvement with PEDs. Morse has failed at least two drug tests, Bonds never has.
I’d love to see Bonds in a Mariners uniform. It’s the kind of bold risk a team that wants to win would take, which means the Mariners regime will never do it.
92,
Zito is by all accounts a good guy and probably a great teammate, so I’ll put a little stock into what he says about having Bonds gone, but I can’t exactly ignore the fact that he got himself a monster contract and then completely flopped and lost a ton of games. He probably wouldn’t consider me a very good teammate either, as I’d have been heckling his ass from the dugout all season.
I would love to see the M’s make a truly agressive move to be a playoff team.
I would love to see the M’s make a truly agressive move to be a playoff team.
Was that really the excuse Bavasi gave. I have no problem with the M’s not pursuing Bonds, but just give an answer that makes sense. It won’t help the OF defense, creates a further glut of DH-types on the roster, and might create a giant (no pun intended) media distraction.
Its ok…in the next interview Jeff Nelson said that with the great defense behind them Silva and Berdard will thrive even more during their stint here in Seattle.
I did laugh at Bavasi’s comments on the way home from work. Especially after I read this post right before I left.
Bonds to this team would be fantastic.
People who don’t like Bonds, I don’t get you. You have the right to an opinion, but I don’t understand it. He’s a gamer who’s poorly portrayed by the media (why people think they actually get the truth out of the media in this day in age…I’ll never know). And he gets rid of Turbo from the lineup.
I mean, he’s a left-handed power bat. Need I say more?
You have to give Bavasi credit though…it definately sounded like he actually believed that Bonds would not help this team. At least he isn’t a liar…dillusional…but not a liar
107- He’d have to rationalize himself into that delusion, and it would be a delusion because it’s so unbelievably stupid. Someone should send him the NL West pitching stats and Bonds splits against AL teams.
I’ve come full circle with Bonds. I think he is a first rate jerk and that is why he is portrayed negatively by the media … However, putting him in the middle of the M’s order transforms this lineup. How many good pitches would Beltre see hitting right in front of Barry?
If the M’s signed him, there would be some controversy among the milk toast Seattle fans who like watching the dancing groundscrew and hydro races more than the games but the second he hit a bomb off the Hit it Here Cafe, everyone would be dancing in their seats with Sodo Mojo being rejuvenated. If nothing else, there would be a buzz at Safeco. We’ve got the “nice” guy M’s, the “nice” guy Seahawks … how about a little shakeup and try signing someone to WIN!
And, #100, I couldn’t agree more. Everett was a complete joke AND he couldn’t hit on top of it.
I hate Barry Bonds. I hate the fact that he cheated and I hate the fact that he is demanding probably 10 million dollars when teams have started Spring Training to play the game that he “loves so much.” However…
I would love for the M’s to sign Barry Bonds. It would be the ultimate middle finger to the American League. “We’re rollin the dice on Bedard and Bonds and we’re going for it.” I think it would make quite the storyline and the team much much better.
In 22 Major League seasons his teams have competed in the postseason 7 times. That is 32% of the time his team makes the postseason. Granted he has had some good teammates, but that is a man who carries his teams.
Oh, c’mon. That’s exactly the kind of spurious claim that gives statistics a bad reputation. In his 12 seasons, Dan Wilson’s Mariners competed in the postseason 4 times. That’s 33% of time. Is Dan Wilson a man who carries teams? Even more than Bonds? Jeff Nelson “carried his team” to 8 postseasons in 15 seasons. More than 50%! Heck, Kenny Lofton has played in the postseason 11 times in 17 years. He must “carry” teams twice as well as Bonds can — and he plays a better outfield. He’s cheaper, too.
I don’t know if the Mariners should sign Barry Bonds or what his impact will be in the clubhouse, but I have to ask something: What’s up with that photo of the dog in a dress?
First pink ponies, now dogs in dresses carrying handbags. USSM rocks!
It took 112 comments for someone to notice the picture? Really?
There’s a reason I picked that one, by the way. I’m surprised no one’s made the connection yet.
I’ve thought about it for a five minutes or so and am starting to feel retarded for not making the connection. Its like looking at one of those 3-D pictures you have to stare at. I never could see those.
There’s no way he can command 10MBucks, and he knows it. I think it’s far more likely that, if he DOES sign with someone, it’ll be for a dinky base salary (2 mil, maybe?) with potential gigantic sweeteners — a million for every ten HR, and so forth, with an iron-clad escape clause for whatever team is involved should he actually be dragged off to court/prison during the season.
But think about it…bases loaded, one out, the M’s down by a run, and either a) Barry Bonds comes to the plate, or b) Jose Vidro comes to the plate — come on! Back when we thought a handful of guys had been using steroids/HGH, it was one thing, but when we now have to believe it’s at least 1/3 and probably more like 1/2 of the league, how can we still shake our finger in Barry’s face about it?
Still can’t see how the dog in the tutu relates to Bonds, can someone explain?
How high of a baseball IQ does it honestly take to realize a team is MUCH more helped by Bonds than effin’ Vidro?
How high of any sort of IQ does it take to figure out the dog pic?
MUCH MORE THAN I HAVE EVIDENTLY
What??!!! Where do you get that idea? And what does Theo Fleury have to do with Steroids? The guy was a drunk and he flushed his career down the toilet. I doubt he was ever on steroids…And for the record, most Canadians don’t like steriods in sports and we don’t like cheaters.
I don’t like Barry Bonds. And not just because he’s a cheater. He’s a jerk. Plain and simple. But the Mariners have had plenty of jerks on the team over the years. If a guy is a jerk but still makes your team better I am okay with it. Unless he does something like beat his wife or hold illegal dog fights ect. But if a player takes performance enhancing drugs, sorry, illegal performance enhancing drugs and therefore makes your team better is that still okay? I don’t think so.
The Mariners and the rest of baseball know Barry Bonds is a cheater. And he is a cheater to the extreme that he made himself not just a better player but the ultimate better player, and now you have a chance to sign this guy to make your team better. Isn’t that almost the same as cheating? I wanna see the Mariners win it all just as bad as the rest of you, but if it takes Barry Bonds to do it, I’d rather we finished last.
Steroids: the topic that keeps on giving.
the photo, IMHO, relates directly to two things:
1-the general theme of lampooning forced cheerfulness in recent photos at USSM (pink pony, etc), also the way these photos mean to address ‘the absurd’…and the appalling care-bear tone of selling baseball for which the M’s FO Marketing has a special aptitude.
2- the old saying “putting a dress on a pig” or “putting lipstick on pig” phrases meant to portray the overall and profound pointlessness of a thing (the discussion of Bonds? the acquisition of Bonds? the wan likelihood of the FO having a reasoned look at it?).
A dog in a tutu.
119-120 – Thanks guys, makes much more sense now.
a million for every ten HR,
I don’t believe those sorts of performance incentives can be put into a contract. Then again, Bonds seems to be mostly outside of the MLPA (he has his own contracts for his likeness and memorabilia, etc) so maybe it doesn’t matter.
Anyway, if you’re worried that he’s going to be spending more time in court than in the batting cage, you’ll want AB incentives which are allowed.
DMZ- I am going with the Barry Bonds dress up as Paula Abdul last spring training. There were no ponies in dresses and handbags??
Mssrs. Olney and Stark from ESPN were on Mike & Mike this morning and they both pegged Seattle as the best fit roster-wise for BLB. If those guys are thinking that – with Seattle being typically as far from their thoughts as possible – and others are thinking that, you’d think the M’s would be slightly less dismissive of the prospect.
Not that they should go by the national media to run their club or anything, but when it’s that obvious we need a lefty power bat, well, it’s THAT obvious.
Well we can look at the bright side I guess. If they don’t sign Bonds, they are more likely to lose, and therefore it is more likely Bavasi and McLaren go out the door at the end of the season. So that’s cool I guess…
So what would Bond’s WAJV be?
joser 111 – It was not meant to be a hard core statistical analysis, but rather an attempt to show that even if he is a crappy human being it has not hindered his teams from winning. Maybe I stated my point poorly, but I am tired of hearing about how his attitude would ruin our clubhouse.
Barry is a jerk, but his teams still win. Why? Because he is the best hitter of our generation and talent wins games.
Didn’t Bonds show up to Spring Training last year in a tutu? Or was it the year before?
Oh here it is. The M’s vets made their rookies come to spring training in tutus. Bonds strikes me as the type of guy who would love that.
Uhm…Barry Zito doesn’t like him is your claim? He said nothing of the sort in the article you linked:
Zito said “People will be allowed to be who they want to be, not who they think they have to be because there is such a heavy presence in the clubhouse, such a superstar.”
Reliever Tyler Walker agreed that players often walked on eggshells around Bonds. He could break up a conversation or chill a room with a turn of his head.
“With his stature, he could trump anybody,” Walker said. “His years in the league and his home runs were the biggest trump cards in the deck.”
…I heard no “he’s a mean evil teammate” quotes anywhere in there. I heard “it’ll be easier not having a superstar on our team.”
I absolutely think that the M’s should attempt to acquire Bonds on an almost fully incentive based deal. It would be a good way to improve the team, but I wonder if there’s any chance at all.
I continue to stand by my opinion that this is a cheaters sport. It has the richest history of cheating among any sport and for some reason the only things the media has told the fans to be upset about are PED’s and throwing the WS/betting. I’d have thrown the WS if Comiskey dealt with me the way he did some of his players. I understand throwing the WS being wrong and I understand trying to remove PED’s from the game. If you can’t handle cheating you’re watching the wrong sport. It’s always been a laugh when talking about cheaters until PED’s but I’m still laughing. I don’t see the distinction that allows one illegal substance (Vaseline) to be laughed about and another (Steroids) to be scorned. It’s all cheating and therefore a part of the game. Get rid of it at present (and therefore in the future) but leave the past alone. Gaylord Perry’s wins are all in the record book and his plaque doesn’t even have a jar of vaseline on it. The media should just let us move on.
Unfortunately as long as high profile
playersscapegoats that are connected to PED’s continue to play the media and fans won’t let it fade into the past.If only there was a book that addressed the long history of cheating in baseball…
(I’m doing shameless plugs so Derek doesn’t have to!)
Bonds may not have been “clubhouse cancer” for the Giants, but for a team anointing Bengie Molina as its big bat, there’s a remarkable amount of good riddance seeping out of Scottsdale this Spring.
Good video link (#51). My only complaint — they didn’t track Ichiro’s bunts. I expected them to be stacked on top of each other in the middle of the circle like the Tiger Woods spot.
Get rid of it at present (and therefore in the future) but leave the past alone.
So how is it “get(ting) rid of it at present” to hand Barry Bonds, PED Poster Child, another 10 million dollar contract to play baseball?
See, that’s why I have no issue with any team not signing the guy. Great, Barry, you have your record. The Giants have completed their contractual obligation to you. Now get the hell out of here and go play golf with Mark McGwire or something.
Unlike when he was under contract to the Giants, nobody is obligated to write him a check or put him in a uniform, and quite frankly, this isn’t an “innocent until proven guilty” sort of thing. I’m perfectly fine with NOT using a judicial standard of guilt to decide I don’t want the guy on my team.
Morse has failed at least two drug tests, Bonds never has.
So, the standard isn’t whether or not you cheat, it’s whether or not you get caught? So do you think OJ is still looking for the real killers? And is that the message you want to send to your organization: “We don’t care if you use; we care if you get caught”?
I might also note that Morse HAS been penalized for his use of PEDs. Bonds, not so much yet.
I might also note that Morse HAS been penalized for his use of PEDs. Bonds, not so much yet.
- So, the standard is if you’ve been punished??
So, the standard is if you’ve been punished??
Well, there may be more reason to look differently on someone who apparently took PEDs for injury treatment and, once caught, fessed up to it than someone who basically says “gee, I thought it was flaxseed oil- I had NO IDEA the cream and the clear could be STEROIDS!!!111!!” to a grand jury and is pretty transparently lying his ass off.
In other words, yeah, it’s not entirely inconsistent to treat someone who has been punished according to MLB guidelines for their usage differently from someone who is unrepentant, and who’s suffered no meaningful financial or career-impacting consequences for his usage.
So, really, why does any team in baseball owe Barry Bonds a job, based on how he’s acted in this whole mess? And how is giving him a contract not basically winking at everyone saying “well, we know we have to talk a good game to the rube fans, but really, it’s all about not getting caught”?
Al Martin hit a woman. Carl Everett abused his kids. Ben Christensen intentionally threw a fastball into the head of a player in the on-deck circle, nearly killing him. Seriously. Bonds used PEDs. And Bonds is the biggest villain?
February 26th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Not a die-hard M’s fan (Go Phillies!), but I live in the Northwest (western Montana counts, right?)so I have a friends that are Mariners fans and we get their games on radio, etc.
Just wanted too add my 2 pennies: Bonds on the M’s would be a good baseball move. He would be an upgrade offensively and from I can tell from the posts here is that he may even be better han Ibanez in the field. The other thing is that M’s can afford him. $10 mil may be a bit too much for his potential contributions, but that is a separate issue. It also makes sense because Seattle is already considered playoff contenders. The other thing I want to add is that I viewed the photo of the dog as symbolic of either A.) the writer begging for Seattle to sign Mr. Bonds, or B.) Barry begging for a job.
How has he acted? What, do you expect him to come out and say, “Well, since Roger Clemens is being such a good sport about it…”
The media hates Barry Bonds. The general populace’s opinion is molded by said media. I’ve seen interviews with Billy Wagner and read about how Bonds helped out a number of teammates going through slumps by sitting down with them and personally throwing BP. You’re going to hear a whole lot less about that then Bonds being pure evil, though, because he doesn’t mince words or give out exclusive interviews or any of that mumbo-jumbo.
This is a great baseball move. Why are there even other factors at play? It’s absolutely right that we’d rather lose politely than win aggressively, and that’s sad.
I’d also find a considerable amount of irony in Bonds taking Morse’s roster spot. Wonder how fast other teams will get him off the waiver wire?
I think Bonds should be a nobrainer. Offer him 5m base and 1.5m for every 100 PA. With a cancellation clause in case he is convicted or pleads guilty before the end of the season.
I heard Seattle gave him the best reception of any road team last year. I have to admit I’m a big Bonds fan, I grew up in the Bay Area when his dad was playing. Barry can still run for a 43 year old, he’s probably still faster than Ibanez, Johjima, Sexson or Vidro, and was 5-0 last year stealing bases.
What, do you expect him to come out and say, “Well, since Roger Clemens is being such a good sport about it…”
So why is how Roger Clemens is acting relevant to the standard of behavior we should expect or desire from Barry Bonds, or any other player? Is the standard we want for players “does not express remorse even when caught red-handed”?
This is a great baseball move. Why are there even other factors at play? It’s absolutely right that we’d rather lose politely than win aggressively, and that’s sad.
So if signing players whose careers have benefited by PED use is a great baseball move, and there’s no real repercussion you can see from it, then why not have the Mariner organization go out of their way to subvert PED testing in their system? Sounds like this would be a great baseball move that could help us win games. Heck, Barry could probably be a consultant. Why do we have this stupid rule in place, anyway?
The way I see it, you either think PEDs in baseball are bad, which means you don’t reward guys like Bonds who were and are part of the problem and refuse to admit their roles, or you think it’s all a load of crap foisted on us by do-goodniks and the point of the game is to win with the best talent possible, in which case, shoot, you might as well have Bonds’ trainer start handing out the cream and the clear to everyone. I don’t see a lot of nuance here (though feel free to show me a nuanced understanding of why Barry Bonds should suffer no consequences in MLB for his role in L’affaire BALCO). Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Canseco, whoever- they get no slack from me until they ‘fess up.
Make no mistake, a MLB roster spot IS a reward. Only 600 people on the planet at a time get one. I see no reason why Barry Bonds needs to be rewarded with one for how he’s acted in all of this. Yeah, it’s sacrificing baseball wins for principle. Sometimes you have to do this.
Whoops, I fail HTML markup AND math. Make that “Only 750 people on the planet at a time get one”.
The point of baseball, as with any sport, is to win within the rules of the game.
Hate to break it to you and everyone else out there, but Bonds still hasn’t broken any rules. Blame baseball all you want for that disaster, but he had a 1.053 OPS *last year* – with nary a trace of steroids in his system. The man still hasn’t even tested positive yet, once. A typo is the closest thing anyone’s come to any hard evidence. And during the years when everybody *says* he took steroids, it wasn’t against the rules of the game. I hate it just as much as everyone else (believe it or not), but those are the facts.
He’s a great baseball player, one of the best of all time. At 43, he’d be the third or fourth-best player on our team. Damn right I want to reward him with a roster spot instead of someone like Mike Morse, who has tested positive TWICE (him ‘paying the penalty’ doesn’t do it for me, either). Honestly, the only difference between the two is you’ve been spoonfed how bad a person Bonds is by an enigmatic media, and you ate it up. And that’s sad.
Plus, did I mention he’d be taking Turbo out of the starting lineup…? That’s probably the best possible baseball situation ever – replacing Barry Bonds with Turbo. It honestly gets no better than that.
The whole thing is a sham. Bonds is less responsible for the affect of PED’s on the game than Bud Selig, in my opinion. The owners had opportunity to diminish the problem long before it got as bad as it did and failed to do so. Pinning it all on a handful of select high-profile people is shameless. I notice that even the government is investigating whether Clemens perjured himself with no seeming concern over whether the star witness did. No investigation to find if he might be lying? If he is I’d bet they already know it.
I’d take Gaylord Perry, Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds. The others got caught injuring the integrity of the game as well as hundreds of others and I don’t care. The integrity of the game has involved cheaters from the get go. So many people have admitted cheating in baseball that if all the known ‘cheaters’ were removed from the Hall of Fame there would be plenty of room for many of the worthy players in this century to fill those spots. Cheating is not a valid reason to be so disgruntled about Bonds if you have no issue with players who cheated in other ways.
I would bet that the sham will not end until long after all the players that have been linked to PED’s (hearsay or not) have retired. All the scapegoats are still going to have trouble getting in to the Hall of Fame and it’s ridiculous to me. Palmiero failed a test, OK. Did Bonds, Clemens or McGwire? How about Sosa ?(who’s believed to have pulled a Bonds and got caught pulling a Ruth in 1 career!) I guess nobody cares about corked bats anyway…Is it because it’s perceived to have less effect than Steroids? Well…Vaseline has a greater effect on a pitch than steroids do.
Bonds was a consensus hall of famer before he took any steroids. Thru 1999 his top season for HR had been 46, he had 445 career HR, 460SB and 8 straigh seasons of 1.000+ OPS. Now look at what was happening in baseball in 1999, Mark McGuire had hit 75HRs in 1998, and 65 in 1999, Sosa had hit 66, and 63. And what was the collective reaction of Baseball to their “amazing” exploits? Selig was flying to their games, the networks were pre-empting programs to show cut away to their at bats. And the MLB and the players union were steadfastly refusing either to ban steroids or test for them, 2 years after Ben Johnson was caught cheating in the Seoul Olympics.
Barry Bonds and the other players were being sent a clear message, and Barry took the hint. He was way behind the curve and to focus on him for the steroids era because he had the most natural talent, and was able to benefit more than a lot of marginal and mediocre players is grossly unfair.
But you can’t hold a Barry Bonds responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole of Baseball? And if all of Baseball is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of our sports institutions in general? I put it to you, isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
epo, I hope I fixed your tags in the way you’d intended. If I mangled them, my apologies.
By the way, guys, kudos to all of you for keeping this conversation pretty civil. When I saw this post go up, my first thought was “uh-oh, this is going to be a rough couple of days”; but I’m not sure we’ve had to moderate any comments in this post at all.
I’m a firm believer in positive reinforcement, and you all done good.
I believe it is an indictment of society in general and sports in general, but not so much as it shows the guilt of the sport that has the richest history of cheating. Not every player, coach, trainer, union off., league off., manager, agent, bat-boy, ball-girl, instructor and owner are culpable but enough are at least accessories to make this witch hunt seem to me like a pizza faced teenager spending all their time popping one zit. Go for them all or close the book. This chapter is a farce at this point anyway.
I don’t think anyone will sign Bonds, but I could see how the M’s could benefit from the move. It could actually turn out to be enough to get them all the way. Chances are that he wouldn’t be around for the playoffs though and that would make it more difficult. If it weren’t for looming trials and possible jail-time in the upcoming 7 months I’d say it was worth the chance, but you’d be upsetting some fans that might not come back for a long time without any guarantee that he’d ever suit up for 1 Major League game as a Mariner. If it seemed more than a 50% likelihood that he could make it through the season I would probably think it worthwhile. This is a great and tough question you’ve asked. I think I’d rather hope that Vidro finds his way to the bench for a productive young bat to replace him though.
143- Um, taking steroids without a prescription is illegal, and was when Bonds allegedly did so. I’m pretty sure it’s against the rules of baseball to do anything illegal. This isn’t a case of ex post facto punishment: the testing program was enacted as a means of enforcing a steroid ban that already existed.
With that said, I’d like to see the Mariners sign him. EC, I don’t see how the M’s signing Bonds (or being in support of the M’s signing Bonds) would indicate the team may as well give out the cream and clear to the whole roster, or that Bonds shouldn’t suffer any consequences from his actions. First of all, he’s been charged with perjury and could end up in jail. Those sound like consequences to me! Sure, they’re not MLB-imposed ones, but if he is convicted of perjury, who’s to say MLB wouldn’t act at that point? And besides, given the absence of a failed drug test or criminal conviction, what exactly could MLB have done? Second, the nuance here is pretty simple: if the Mariners sign him, it would be with the assumption that he plays the 2008 season clean. And if he’s presently clean, I don’t see what the problem is with having him on the team. Is it really that much different than if, say, the Mariners had traded for Josh Hamilton? He broke baseball’s rules, and now he’s clean. Yeah, we’d like to think he’s a nicer guy than Bonds for admitting his mistakes and working to fix them–and that’s certainly commendable–but I don’t really see how that matters from a roster construction standpoint. There are plenty of jerks on MLB rosters. And yeah, I don’t like Bonds or what he did, and would be happy to see him go to jail, but in the meantime, it’d be nice if our DH position became a strength instead of an embarassment.
I’ve heard a couple of national talk shows discussing Bonds and I’ve tried to call in to tell them that as a Mariner fan I’d love to sign Bonds to a 1 year deal. Jose Vidro is our DH! I’ll put up with the “clubhouse cancer” and he’s not going to be going to jail this year. I’m tired of having crappy teams, and would much rather deal with PEDs than guys like Carl Everett who not only suck but also are abusive.
Gaylord Perry wrote a book about bringing “illegal substances” to the mound more than 10 years before he was inducted in to the Hall of Fame.
This is in reference to Bonds going to Tampa, but it’s still a pretty interesting depiction of what any team hiring him would have to expect.
You know, I should write that up.