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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;re Back! (uhh, and some moves, too)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: jzalman</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265721</link>
		<dc:creator>jzalman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 19:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265721</guid>
		<description>@ et_blankenship:

&quot;puts on his Hafner pants&quot; is just an awesome phrase.  Well done.  

And pretty well done to the M&#039;s for making these moves.  We can argue all we want about choice of timing and who to send down, but I think all agree this will help, and that it&#039;s a step in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ et_blankenship:</p>
<p>&#8220;puts on his Hafner pants&#8221; is just an awesome phrase.  Well done.  </p>
<p>And pretty well done to the M&#8217;s for making these moves.  We can argue all we want about choice of timing and who to send down, but I think all agree this will help, and that it&#8217;s a step in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: BAT235</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265663</link>
		<dc:creator>BAT235</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265663</guid>
		<description>Good points all around. I guess I need to break my old habits and start paying closer attention to OPS, OBP etc. Regardless, I refuse to believe that Vidro is not MLB caliber. I wouldn&#039;t cry if he started platooning though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points all around. I guess I need to break my old habits and start paying closer attention to OPS, OBP etc. Regardless, I refuse to believe that Vidro is not MLB caliber. I wouldn&#8217;t cry if he started platooning though.</p>
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		<title>By: JMHawkins</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265644</link>
		<dc:creator>JMHawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265644</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt; JV is currently 2nd on the Ms in RBIs and last year had one of the highest averages in the 2nd half of any player&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Batting Average and RBIs are very much outdated stats.  They&#039;re the equivalent of using ERA to judge a pitcher.  Teams who do that are behind the times and getting outsmarted by folks using better methods.  Probably USSM needs a companion piece to Dave&#039;s &quot;Why ERA is bad&quot; post dealing with BA and RBIs, but here&#039;s the nutshell version:

Batting average is an ineffective measurement because it completely fails to account for walks and XBHs, which are very important.  Edgar Martinez was a high average hitter, but his Batting Average alone only accounted for about 60% of his offensive value over his entire career.  Walks, doubles and HRs were 40% of his game (triples too, all 15 he ever hit).  For guys like Ortiz or Frank Thomas, power is an even bigger part.  Pujols and Manny both clock in at about the same split as Edgar.   Even Ichiro provides over 20% of his offensive value through something other than singles.   

RBIs are a bogus stat because they depend more on luck than skill.  Vidro has no control over whether guys are on base when he comes to the plate or not, and he (along with everyone else) gets hits with men on at about the same rate as not.  Vidro&#039;s career BA:  .300.  Vidro&#039;s career BA with RISP: .297.  He doesn&#039;t get better with ducks on the pond.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;He’s a .300 hitter with nearly 5,000 atbats! &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Edgar&#039;s a .312 hitter with over 7000 ABs.  Age and injury take their toll on everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><em> JV is currently 2nd on the Ms in RBIs and last year had one of the highest averages in the 2nd half of any player</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Batting Average and RBIs are very much outdated stats.  They&#8217;re the equivalent of using ERA to judge a pitcher.  Teams who do that are behind the times and getting outsmarted by folks using better methods.  Probably USSM needs a companion piece to Dave&#8217;s &#8220;Why ERA is bad&#8221; post dealing with BA and RBIs, but here&#8217;s the nutshell version:</p>
<p>Batting average is an ineffective measurement because it completely fails to account for walks and XBHs, which are very important.  Edgar Martinez was a high average hitter, but his Batting Average alone only accounted for about 60% of his offensive value over his entire career.  Walks, doubles and HRs were 40% of his game (triples too, all 15 he ever hit).  For guys like Ortiz or Frank Thomas, power is an even bigger part.  Pujols and Manny both clock in at about the same split as Edgar.   Even Ichiro provides over 20% of his offensive value through something other than singles.   </p>
<p>RBIs are a bogus stat because they depend more on luck than skill.  Vidro has no control over whether guys are on base when he comes to the plate or not, and he (along with everyone else) gets hits with men on at about the same rate as not.  Vidro&#8217;s career BA:  .300.  Vidro&#8217;s career BA with RISP: .297.  He doesn&#8217;t get better with ducks on the pond.  </p>
<blockquote><p><em>He’s a .300 hitter with nearly 5,000 atbats! </em></p></blockquote>
<p>Edgar&#8217;s a .312 hitter with over 7000 ABs.  Age and injury take their toll on everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: scott19</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265578</link>
		<dc:creator>scott19</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 07:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265578</guid>
		<description>And how the hell Vidro&#039;s even second on the team in RBI&#039;s at this point to begin with remains as one of life&#039;s great mysteries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how the hell Vidro&#8217;s even second on the team in RBI&#8217;s at this point to begin with remains as one of life&#8217;s great mysteries.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Nye</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265572</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Nye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 05:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265572</guid>
		<description>The problems with Vidro cannot be seen by looking at things like RBI or batting average.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problems with Vidro cannot be seen by looking at things like RBI or batting average.</p>
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		<title>By: BAT235</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265571</link>
		<dc:creator>BAT235</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 05:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265571</guid>
		<description>Okay, I&#039;d just like a moment to briefly defend Vidro (gasp). I simply don&#039;t understand why everyone here hates him so much. JV is currently 2nd on the Ms in RBIs and last year had one of the highest averages in the 2nd half of any player. Yes I understand that he&#039;s slow, not a good fielder, and gets mostly singles. These things are MAJOR holes in his game. Still...Vidro would not make sense to drop for a minor leaguer, no matter how promising he is. He&#039;s a .300 hitter with nearly 5,000 atbats! I would have sent Cairo and Wilk down.

P.S. Great McLaren quote for today: (about Cliff Lee) &quot;He&#039;s probably one of the best pitchers going right now.&quot; Hmmmm...27 scoreless would &lt;em&gt;probably&lt;/em&gt; make him one of the best right now. Probably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I&#8217;d just like a moment to briefly defend Vidro (gasp). I simply don&#8217;t understand why everyone here hates him so much. JV is currently 2nd on the Ms in RBIs and last year had one of the highest averages in the 2nd half of any player. Yes I understand that he&#8217;s slow, not a good fielder, and gets mostly singles. These things are MAJOR holes in his game. Still&#8230;Vidro would not make sense to drop for a minor leaguer, no matter how promising he is. He&#8217;s a .300 hitter with nearly 5,000 atbats! I would have sent Cairo and Wilk down.</p>
<p>P.S. Great McLaren quote for today: (about Cliff Lee) &#8220;He&#8217;s probably one of the best pitchers going right now.&#8221; Hmmmm&#8230;27 scoreless would <em>probably</em> make him one of the best right now. Probably.</p>
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		<title>By: Mere Tantalisers</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265560</link>
		<dc:creator>Mere Tantalisers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 03:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265560</guid>
		<description>I may have this wrong, but Clement still has option years, right? So if he starts next year in the minors for a month or so, maybe his FA can be pushed back a year after all. Am I talking out of my ass here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have this wrong, but Clement still has option years, right? So if he starts next year in the minors for a month or so, maybe his FA can be pushed back a year after all. Am I talking out of my ass here?</p>
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		<title>By: Max Power</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265559</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 03:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265559</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But the Mariners aren’t ignorant of that fact - they just have a different set of beliefs about how that should affect roster decisions. You don’t have to agree with those beliefs (I don’t think I do, but I am willing to admit that they have something of a point on the lack of ethics of intentionally holding a guy down when you believe he’s ready), but you should be willing to admit that it’s not ignorance that drove that decision. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I actually think it&#039;s a pretty honorable position that Bavasi&#039;s taking here, but probably not in the best interests of the club.  He comes across (Bavasi that is) as an insanely loyal dude, to the point that it harms the club - he hangs on to veterans until they&#039;re past the expiration date, he defers all on-field decisions to the manager, the Wlad/Clement service time issue above, etc.  

He seems like an ideal boss - the kind of guy you&#039;d love to work for because he&#039;d have your back but since no one else in the league is as decent a guy as he is, it comes back to bite him in the ass.  It&#039;s not like Clement and/or Balentien are that likely to reciprocate by taking &#039;hometown discounts&#039; if they turn into stars but maybe I&#039;m just being cynical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But the Mariners aren’t ignorant of that fact &#8211; they just have a different set of beliefs about how that should affect roster decisions. You don’t have to agree with those beliefs (I don’t think I do, but I am willing to admit that they have something of a point on the lack of ethics of intentionally holding a guy down when you believe he’s ready), but you should be willing to admit that it’s not ignorance that drove that decision. </p></blockquote>
<p>I actually think it&#8217;s a pretty honorable position that Bavasi&#8217;s taking here, but probably not in the best interests of the club.  He comes across (Bavasi that is) as an insanely loyal dude, to the point that it harms the club &#8211; he hangs on to veterans until they&#8217;re past the expiration date, he defers all on-field decisions to the manager, the Wlad/Clement service time issue above, etc.  </p>
<p>He seems like an ideal boss &#8211; the kind of guy you&#8217;d love to work for because he&#8217;d have your back but since no one else in the league is as decent a guy as he is, it comes back to bite him in the ass.  It&#8217;s not like Clement and/or Balentien are that likely to reciprocate by taking &#8216;hometown discounts&#8217; if they turn into stars but maybe I&#8217;m just being cynical.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Power</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265556</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Power</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 03:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265556</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What is Cairo’s value? He can’t hit or run and he plays less than WFB defense at fewer positions. They are the same player, but one is clearly superior for the given role.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My hunch is that he&#039;s solely the insurance policy in case Lopez flops.   The only thing I can think of is that they aren&#039;t yet completely sold on Lopez, ergo they decide to keep Cairo on a bit longer.  

I&#039;d assume they&#039;re very happy with Lopez thus far, so Cairo may not be around a great deal longer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What is Cairo’s value? He can’t hit or run and he plays less than WFB defense at fewer positions. They are the same player, but one is clearly superior for the given role.</p></blockquote>
<p>My hunch is that he&#8217;s solely the insurance policy in case Lopez flops.   The only thing I can think of is that they aren&#8217;t yet completely sold on Lopez, ergo they decide to keep Cairo on a bit longer.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d assume they&#8217;re very happy with Lopez thus far, so Cairo may not be around a great deal longer.</p>
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		<title>By: scott19</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/04/30/were-back-uhh-and-some-moves-too/comment-page-2/#comment-265551</link>
		<dc:creator>scott19</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 02:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5110#comment-265551</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Given this is the only team geographically able to provide FFV with a daily dose of Burgerville, I can see why he likes it here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not to mention, a Dick&#039;s Hamburgers or Kidd Valley on just about every corner as well. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Given this is the only team geographically able to provide FFV with a daily dose of Burgerville, I can see why he likes it here.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not to mention, a Dick&#8217;s Hamburgers or Kidd Valley on just about every corner as well. <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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