"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
"Derek Zumsteg should be ashamed to have such comprehensive knowledge of the history of cheating in baseball. Pete Rose gave me two to one odds this book would become a classic." -- Allen Barra, author of The Last Coach: A Life of Paul "Bear" Bryant
Sigh. Did it ever shut down? M’s looking at Griffey.
Reports out of New York say that Duane Shaffer, in his first season as a special assistant to Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi, was in Shea Stadium Sunday to have a look at Griffey.
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The 10-year-old child in me who has fond memories of watching Griffey in the Dome is saying “yay!”
The other half of me is dreading what Bavasi may give up to get him.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:35 amJust say goodbye to Triunfel now, I guess. If he’s smart, he got a jump on packing his bags.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:37 amAnd did Hickey really say we should move Raul Ibanez to the DH? BLASPHEMY!!!
May 12th, 2008 at 12:40 amWanting Griffey back, is sort of like having a nostalgic urge to buy (and restore) a slightly rusty ‘65 Mustang with torn upholstery and blown gaskets. The difference is, the ‘Stang might actually represent a decent, long-term investment value.
Please, make it stop.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:04 amTriunfel is probably overrated anyway. We’ll be fine.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:07 amThe GM for the Reds must be drooling at what he knows he’ll get in return from Bavasi.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:14 amMaybe the team’s early struggles have got me down, but I almost welcome this move. If we’re not going to make the playoffs we might as well have some people in the lineup that I genuinely like as a fan and want to watch play even if they are somewhat washed up.
AND I now realize how WFB happens.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:20 amThis makes me very, very scared. I loved Griffey. If he wasn’t broken down and overpaid, I would welcome him back to the team if we got a fair deal. However, I see Bavasi panicking much like they did with Silva and throwing stupid amounts of talent at Cincy for him, and I don’t think that Griff will provide any real help to the team beyond the sentimentality bringing fans to the stadium.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:26 amHe is not going to give up Triunfel for Griffey, come on.
It will most likely be Feirabend and Rob Johnson. I don’t really mind that.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:45 amThat reminds me…[ot]
May 12th, 2008 at 3:31 amPlease, no.
May 12th, 2008 at 5:49 am7 - ExACTly the point I’ve been making quietly for a while now. Ultimately, the success of the M’s is not measured in wins and losses, though that plays a significant part. But in the absence of a winning team, making it interesting to Joe Lunchbox, putting his butt in a seat, his torso in a jersey, or his melon in a cap is what defines success. USSM believes that wins are essential to this (and I agree that it’s a damn good approach), but the M’s FO seems to think that good stories, local boys made good, and returning fading heroes can be just as effective as a means to make a profit.
Anyone remember picking up Gaylord Perry so he could get his 300th win as an M? I don’t know how old I was at the time, but even then that seemed to be nothing more than an attempt to boost attendance every fifth day. Different FO, sure, but the same sort of mentality. When you can’t have quality, then spin and market like crazy.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:48 amBack on May 6th, Dave said he would be going a [Griffey! GRIFFEY] post tomorrow.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:21 amI will readily acknowledge that whomever it takes to get Griffey to the Ms will not be worth him in terms of talent, that he will not help this team get to the playoffs this year (probably any year), and that we will be paying the opposite of a hometown discount (his perceived value is much higher in Seattle than anywhere else in country). With all that being said, I want him in Seattle. This season is already a waste, any game without Felix or Bedard penciled in to start is painful to watch. And even though the games with Felix or Bedard on the mound give me hope, they can actually be more painful when coupled with no run support.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:37 amIf the front office insists on putting this product on the field they might as well run Griffey out there too.
Really bringing in Griffey would serve two purposes - 1) the team’s suckiness and projected suckiness would continue, thus accelerating McLaren and/or Bavasi’s departure and 2)I (and all the fans like me) would have the satisfaction of seeing Jr. in an Ms uniform once again.
As irrational as it sounds,the thought of it makes me feel I’m 13 again, and all is right with the world.
I can’t argue with the emotional appeals. I was there for the Griffey years, and I appreciated him very much, but I never loved him. It’s remarkable to me how golden his memory has become, given the way he left town.
I’m not into nostalgia gimmicks, and I wouldn’t be even if it was Edgar (or, to take a beloved player who’s still playing, Jamie Moyer). We need to rebuild. It’s not just that Griffey gives us no more chance of winning now; he blocks development for someone else, and sets back our rebuilding.
I want to win, damnit, not bask in a past that didn’t even bring us an American League championship.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:47 amActually, no…I don’t think so. Those kind of things are temporary, short-term lifts…but you can’t get sustained success out of them.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:52 amBleh. I thought we agreed not to use the ‘G’ word? Like H*stur, right? ‘He Who Shall Not Be Named’?
Any kind of trade for He Who Shall Not Be Named is silly. You wanna sign him after the season and play him in left? Knock yourselves out. But he ain’t the same player who bailed out years ago. I mean, do you really want to watch him everyday at the player he is now? Or remember him as he was 10 years ago? Move on, Seattle.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:04 amWould it make sense and is it possible to trade Bedard for Griffey and a couple minor league pitchers?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:07 amthe rumoring from the Cincy POV
May 12th, 2008 at 8:20 amI don’t get it. If we had Griffey, wouldn’t we have to send either Clement or Balentien back to the minors? Oh god, unless they were given up in the trade!
May 12th, 2008 at 8:27 amJoe C, please say you’re joking.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:32 amscraps, doesn’t he almost have to be joking?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:33 amI think the point here is that any discussion about Griffey is a joke.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:43 amWith the season down the drain, it’s the obvious “re-energize the fan base and sell tickets” move.
Have they no shame?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:44 amIf we are blowing up the team and just trying to bring in a bunch of players people will want to watch, then why not bring in Bonds, too? Imaging, Griffey and Bonds in the same lineup, only 10 years past their primes. The M’s would sell out every game with press alone:) I’m being totally sarcastic, but that would be quite the circus, don’t you think?
May 12th, 2008 at 8:45 amEvery thread was turning into a Griffey thread anyway, so it’s good to have it consolidated in one place.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:52 amThat isn’t even funny. Junior is the best player ever to play any sport in Seattle and if anything he should be eternally praised. If he comes back to play for the M’s I will be in heaven.
Junior to the M’s 08. Can we resurrect the season? Yes, with Junior.
Bottom line: I would rather lose watching The Kid swing that anyone else we have, maybe Ichiro.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:12 amI want Griffey to come back.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:17 amWhen he’s a free agent.
For league minimum.
And ride the pine.
Or be the worst player on the team.
Not for trading anything. Please, don’t trade any talent.
“That isn’t even funny. Junior is the best player ever to play any sport in Seattle and if anything he should be eternally praised.”
Gary Payton and Lauren Jackson say hello…
“Bottom line: I would rather lose watching The Kid swing that anyone else we have, maybe Ichiro.”
While we’re hopelessly wallowing in early 90s nostalgia let’s bring back Edgar as hitting coach, Moyer as pitching coach, Dan Wilson to manage, put Almost Live back on Channel 5, resurrect Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley and use the Kalakala to ferry in people from West Seattle. Jeez.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:19 amI don’t know why the cost for Griffey is expected to be so high. Wherever he goes the Reds save about 16 million dollars (unsure over who takes the bill on the deferred payments) and get a player in return. I could see Baek and a lower ceiling prospect for Griffey, but maybe I am just naive.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:23 amCOME ON, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TAKE THAT BACK.
It isn’t about 90’s nostalgia (actually it is, kinda). But his stats are there to prove he hasn’t lost it completely
Last 3 years
128 g / .301 / 35hr / 92rbi
109 g / .252 / 27hr / 72rbi
144 g / .277 / 30hr / 93rbi
If he plays a pull season I don’t see why he wont be able to hit at least 280 with 30 hr’s and 90+ rbi’s. He is one of the best players I have ever seen, still has his stroke and can ignite this offense.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:24 amWhile I think it’s kinda funny, and it feels more like a stunt than a baseball move, I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing griffey come back and finish out his career hear… provided we don’t give up any part of the future for it.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:27 am“He looked really old,” Shaffer commented when asked his impressions while exiting the stadium.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:29 amGriffey, great as he is, isn’t even the best baseball player ever to play in Seattle; no matter whether you dislike him or not, that’s Alex Rodriguez.
Could be a fun list, though. Mine would be more or less like this — probably forgetting someone crucial:
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Gary Payton
3. Steve Largent
4. Randy Johnson
5. Ken Griffey, Jr
6. Ken Easley
7. Edgar Martinez
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Jacob Green
10. Shaun Alexander
Putting Griffey at #5 is certainly not meant as a dis; the four guys I put ahead of him are all-time greats, too.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:29 amI would love to see Junior back in Seattle as DH.
Moving Balentien to DH, however would be myopic. He has done a solid job in RF, demonstrating range and a great arm.
I don’t want to see Junior in LF either, as that would block Michael Saunders, who would be a welcome upgrade in LF.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:32 amBut he never does. He hasn’t played more than 145 games since 1999. He’s played more than 128 games in a season twice in the last eight years.
Then why can’t he ignite Cincinnati’s?
May 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am34 - I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Griffey was rated by espn as the best player of the 90’s in all of Major League baseball. I would be surprised if Payton was in the top 5.
The only person who you could PERHAPS put ahead of Griffey is Largent.
Randy is MIGHT have an argument and A-Rod played here a few years, then left our city for Texas. You can’t count seasons where a player did most of his damage in anther city. I think that goes the same with the Big Unit.
Everyone knows The Safe is the house that Junior built.
Juniors offensive numbers were magnificent - not to mention I still think he is the second best defensive CF of all time behind Willy Mays.
OH how soon this city forgets. Downright offensive to me.
1) Largent/Griffey
May 12th, 2008 at 9:37 am2) Randy
3) GP
sorry for the extra-ordinary amount of spelling / grammatical errors in that last post - 37 I just got very heated.
Love Junior like a God. I need to stay out of this thread
May 12th, 2008 at 9:39 amscraps, I’m assuming you meant athletes, not baseball players? I don’t think Gary Payton was ever much good at hitting curveballs.
And, well, whatever Griffey may have been in the 90s, he most certainly isn’t that player anymore.
Now, he’s an aging DH with bad legs, and isn’t the solution to the M’s problems; depending on who we ended up having to give up in trade, it could make us nostalgic for Soriano for HoRam.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:39 amJunior to the M’s 08. Can we resurrect the season? Yes, with Junior
No. He’s isn’t the friggin’ messiah, people. He used to be a great ballplayer, now he’s a decent-to-good player who can’t play defense anymore. He’s also a mighty injury risk.
I sat through a decade and a half of HORRIBLE losing baseball at the Kingdome. Winning makes the game fun to watch, not having well passed their prime players on the team. You simply can’t keep recycling former M’s. If it costs the M’s a couple of propects who are going nowhere on our team and a BARE minimum of salary, so be it. Fans coming out 40k at a time to see He Who Shall Not Be Named only reinforces bad behavior on the part of the M’s FO. Think of all those years with the Cubs selling out games but only giving a half-assed effort to build a contender. Is that what you want?
May 12th, 2008 at 9:41 amGriffey’s accomplishments and work in Seattle exceed ARod’s accomplishments and work in Seattle. Their entire MLB careers are another topic.
Scraps — Jacob Green, really?
May 12th, 2008 at 9:42 amI never thought I would say this, but I think we should outlaw USSM threads concerning Griffey.
Not only do I think this is sacreligious but I think it will offend too many people.
I’m going to make fun of Washburn in the ‘Shut up Jarrod’ Thread.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:48 am#30
I think everyone is worried that the Mariners are going to be WILLING to give up way more than they should to get Griffey. I’ve worried about that ever since they brought up Clement and then signed Kenji to an extension. I felt after that the Mariners feel they have no need for Clement at catcher and they may look at him as expendable for the right player. I hope that’s not what’s happening here, but I just get worried.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:52 amI have no idea what makes you think that that is something you should be able to dictate.
If you don’t feel you are able to deal with people whose opinion of Griffey doesn’t match up with your obviously very high one, then I encourage you to take a deep breath and relax a bit.
The reality, however, is that the Griffey of today is a limited, fragile DH at best and isn’t someone we should be giving up anything of value for.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:52 amJeff, the original assertion was best player in any sport in Seattle.
Tek, I dunno. Green was third all-time in sacks when he retired. I think he’s underrated in Seattle because the team wasn’t great. But I’m not committed to him.
Okay, jspektor, I’ll give you A-Rod only playing seven years here — five full seasons — and acknowledge that might not be enough to qualify, even given his MVP-level performance.
Randy Johnson, though, had arguably the best five-year run for any starting pitcher in history for us.
Gary Payton is one of the half-dozen best players of his time, a complete player and a team leader, a first-ballot hall of famer. Maybe not ahead of Griffey, but certainly in the argument.
Taking offense at my opinion is silly. I haven’t “forgotten” anything. I’ve been a fan of the Mariners since Diego goddamn Segui. I just disagree with you. I’ve said Griffey’s an all-time great. Sorry if my worship for him is inadequate to your personal level of uncritical passion.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:52 amnot to mention I still think he is the second best defensive CF of all time behind Willy Mays.
You’re more than intitled to your opinions, but c’mon, really? Andruw Jones says ‘hi’.
but I think we should outlaw USSM threads concerning Griffey.
No, this is just the wrong blog to come in looking at him through your ‘I was 13 in ‘95 and looooooved him’ glasses.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:53 amOh: And I sure don’t give a damn about what ESPN thinks.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:54 amAs for defensive center fielders, do you remember Paul Blair? Richie Ashburn?
Seriously, Mike Cameron was a greater defensive center fielder than Griffey. And again, that is not meant to knock Griffey!
May 12th, 2008 at 9:56 am44 - I am not trying to dictate anything … just throwing it out there.
45 - I actually never want to question anyones Fandom … it was just a statement of I think generally people forget Junior’s grace. I do apologize for the offense
46 - I would be curious to see what the so called ‘experts’ think about the greatest defensive center fielder.
And, yeah, you are right I was young when Junior roamed the OF.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:56 amOops, sorry scraps, I’d missed the post before yours. Shows what I get for posting before my coffee has fully kicked in.
In addition guys, while you’re finally being given your chance to go nuts and talk about Griffey, the usual standards of conversation here apply; if this turns into “if you don’t think Griffey is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you’re the biggest idiot ever” or “Griffey always sucked, you moron”, we’re going to have a problem.
Let’s not go down that road, thanks.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:57 am46 -
Upon further research:
“ESPN’s Baseball Tonight gave their list tonight of the top 3 defensive CF’s of all time. Number 1 was Andruw Jones, Number 2 was Willie Mays, also entirely supportable. Number 3 was Ken Griffey Jr.”
Well at least he is top 3 …
May 12th, 2008 at 9:58 am46 - I would be curious to see what the so called ‘experts’ think about the greatest defensive center fielder.
Depends. Who are your ‘experts’? Steve Phillips and John Kruk? Or Bill James and Tom Tango? Gri**ey is certainly on the list but let’s not go crazy.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:04 amESPN’s Baseball Tonight gave their list tonight
Depends. Who are your ‘experts’? Steve Phillips and John Kruk?
Ah, I rest my case. I probably catch bbtonight once or twice a month and every time Kruk or Phlllips say something that remind of why I don’t watch more often.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:12 amA-Rod? Randy Johnson?
Maybe you haven’t noticed, but players wo are a million years old are prime candidates for collaspe.
You can think this, but you’d be wrong on both accounts.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:14 am[ot]
May 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am[ot]
May 12th, 2008 at 10:20 am[ot]
May 12th, 2008 at 10:22 amPeople that want to ban the Griffey talk should have their Mariner Fan Cards pulled!
GRIFFEY IN O8!!!
May 12th, 2008 at 10:22 amPeople that want to ban the Griffey talk should have their Mariner Fan Cards pulled!
Out of great respect for this blog I’m not going to lay into you with both barrels.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:29 amSee — here’s the thing.
The M’s FO seems very, very interested in getting Griffey back. When they want something (be it a specific player or a player who fits a specific role — like “Lefty Ace Pitcher” etc.), they fixate on it until they get it.
When they’re fixating on something, they put on blinders to reality. They don’t see the present value of what they’re getting, necessarily, nor the future value in what they’re willing to surrender.
Give Bavasi this ultimatum, and when his first deal doesn’t cut it, he panics. It’s this panic mode that worries the heck out of me.
Realistically, it should only take something like Rob Johnson and either Baek or Feierabend, and MAYBE a lower-level sorta-’spect to land Griffey. But given Bavasi’s track record for spending $10 on a gallon of milk, other front offices are well aware that they can milk more out of Bavasi when he’s in panic mode.
The M’s would likely give up value equivalent to trading for Griffey in the late 90s, rather than the proper value for what he’s equivalent to today. This is what scares the crap out of me, and why I’d MUCH rather throw a metric-F-million at Bonds — who’d probably hit better AND might actually be willing to DH (and might actually be a better option in the OF than Raul as well). It will never, ever happen, but that’s what I’d prefer…
And Dave can testify to my love for Griffey (and how badly I’d like to see him back now). I’d LOVE LOVE LOVE to see Griffey in Seattle right now. But, honestly, it might actually do more harm than good…
May 12th, 2008 at 10:32 amMy view is that the M’s need Griffey RIGHT NOW! That would be true even if he had never played for us before.
The excitement of his return and the ticket sales would be great, but we need him. We need lefthanded power and have ever since Safeco was built.
I know he’s not what he used to be and I know that it would be nice if we could acquire an even better lefthanded power hitter–BUT WE WON’T–so let’s get what we can and do it now!
May 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am[no, we're not doing this in this thread, cut it out]
May 12th, 2008 at 10:36 am#60, Positive Paul — If it even takes that much, the M’s should pass.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:38 amAs a huge Griffey fan, I’ve watched almost every Reds game for the past few years.
Sure, his skills have diminished. Recent years have set unrealistic expectations for players to completely maintain in their late 30s. However, he has hit for power. This year he’s been terrible, although he had good swings on Saturday and hopefully he’s coming out of his funk.
Defensively, he’s an average to below average corner outfielder. His arm is still good, but his range is probably only slightly better than Raul.
That said, he would still help this team. They need power, they need a jump start. He could play some LF, some RF, some DH. Maybe even some first base.
However, would he even allow a trade to Seattle at this point? The Reds definitely suck, but so do the M’s. Neither team has a back of the rotation. Harang and Volquez have pitched as well as Felix and Bedard.
I’m all for the move, if only so I can watch one terrible team every day instead of two. Let’s consolidate! I don’t think the Reds need much in return.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:44 amI hear Griffey Senior is available for even less.
Jeez, he was never within shouting distance of second best when he was playing there. Ever heard of Gary Pettis? Dwayne Murphy? Griffey’s not in the top 100. As a hitter, sure.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:45 amSorry… I’m just tired of Griffey getting ripped on this Blog.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:53 amA sensible evaluation of the 2008 version of Griffey in no way, shape, or form constitutes “ripping” him.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:55 amHe’s not getting ripped. We all loved having him here but that time has gone, man.
Remember that girlfriend you had in high school? She was really cool and looked fantastic but things just didn’t work out? 10 years later you hear she’s available again and you’re lookin’ too so you talk a couple of times and realize this isn’t the same girl when you guys were 18? Let it go, keep those awesome memories of ‘95 and think of the present and the future.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:56 amSay you’re John Hickey, and a big part of your job is writing about a team that has a six month season. And one month into that season, it looks like the team is out of contention, nobody is coming to their games, and the next five months is just going be one log slog writing about things that don’t matter for people who aren’t reading because they don’t care. What do you do?
Yep.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:56 amGriffey Kudzu! I NEED MORE GRIFFEY KUDZU!
May 12th, 2008 at 10:57 amJust say goodbye to Triunfel now, I guess. If he’s smart, he got a jump on packing his bags.
Prospects-for-Veterans trades work out more often than one might think; most prospects don’t turn into hall of famers. Heck, we traded away Adam Jones this offseason and despite the super-prospect status, he’s yet to have any success at the MLB level, even playing in a better hitters park than Safeco and playing everyday. So there you go.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:57 amI was about to mention Gary Pettis, and I’d forgotten about Dwayne Murphy. Pettis was like Adam Everett: the guys who can’t hit never get the media time, but Pettis ran down everything.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:57 amSo there you go.
Yes, that proves you know little-to-nothing about evaluating a trade. Congrats.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:02 amfetish, why do you seem to be so determined to rehash the Adam Jones trade in this post?
The authors finally give in to all the clamoring for a Griffey post and we can’t even keep it on topic.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:05 amWell, being ready to call Jones a failure is kind of on-topic: fetish can’t seem to remember Jones’s age, and several other people can’t seem to remember Griffey’s.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:07 amThe Griffey bashing is really quite sad. He built your stadium and while he’s obviously not what he once was - the greatest player of the 1990s - offensively, he’s still better than anyone the Mariners is running out in right field, DH, or for that matter, first base. Not only would he be an improvement on the field, he’d give your fickle fan base a reason to go to the park. Sounds like a winning combo to me … which considering that we’re talking about Bill Bavasi, is a good reason why it probably won’t happen.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:10 am[please stop]
May 12th, 2008 at 11:15 amHow is any of that Griffey bashing? A discussion of whether or not he’d help the team, along with an acknolwedgement of how beloved he was and is — I don’t see it.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:16 amthe greatest player of the 1990s
Barry Bonds says ‘hi’.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:16 amIf the FO is convinced that bringing Griffey back would sell more tickets then I have a feeling they are going to find a way to get it done.
They have to know that this team isn’t a contender right now, but if you bring back Griffey you could also probably bring back the casual fans that would go just because they wanted to see him in a M’s jersey again, the weather is nice, and they want the Safeco Experience.
The only thing we can do now is pray that they don’t give up much at all when they do bring him back.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:17 amTo be clear, too: if the Mariners were able to get him without giving up any useful talent, and stick him at DH, thus putting Turbo into the pinch hitting role he should be in and sending Wlad or Clement back to the minors? I’d be all for it.
But any analysis of what we should be willing to give up for Griffey needs to start with an honest evaluation of the player he is today, without it being colored by the player he used to be, and it isn’t “bashing” for people to say that right now, he isn’t the same player he was in the 90s.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:19 amCan you imagine an M’s outfield with Raul in left and Griffey in right?
You thought the corner outfield ranges were bad now.
Of course, I’m assuming that McLaren would put Griffey into one of the worst possible spots in the lineup and on the field.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:23 amI think Ichiro would just tell them to go stand at the foul lines.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:25 amI know this is going to be perceived as Griffey-bashing by the folks who can’t stand to hear anything less than adulatory about Junior, but it’s true that the numbers never supported the idea of Griffey being a great center fielder. Good, and spectacular, but he didn’t make the number of plays that guys like Pettis did, or that Cameron did when he replaced Griffey. Sure, defensive numbers aren’t perfect, so you can dismiss them if you want, but it’s hard to make a good argument why Cameron would make more putouts than Griffey other than being better at it.
Mariner fans are quick to dismiss Jim Edmonds’s defensive reputation as built on flashy play, but it’s true of Griffey, too. And Griffey had become a flat-out bad center fielder for several years before he was finally moved.
For what it’s worth — not much to a true believer, no doubt — he never had the other kinds of speed numbers you’d normally associate with a great center fielder: career high of 24 stolen bases in a season, and never more than 4 triples in a season. It makes sense that his range numbers were good, not great; but the idea is heresy to many, of course.
(And yes, I saw him play, hundreds of times, and saw all the spectacular plays you all did, and I’m glad I got to see them, too.)
May 12th, 2008 at 11:26 amI don’t agree with it, but here’s a reasonable argument that Griffey is the worst player in baseball.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:29 amWhat do you guys think of Griffey for Turbo and Cairo? With the Reds paying most of Griffey’s remaining salary.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:35 amthe numbers never supported the idea of Griffey being a great center fielder
In retrospect, I think of Griffey’s fielding prowess the same way I do Yuniesky Betancourt’s now. You saw stuff that was flashy and exciting, and the weaknesses were not so much stuff you saw as stuff you didn’t see. Which is not to say either of them is bad, but it’s hard to establish that they’re something greater than competent. But it’s not like Derek Jeter, whose fielding virtues seem to be based entirely on one signature move, and whose weaknesses are much more glaringly obvious.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:40 amHere here!
Really? Not in the top 100 defensively? I assume we are talking about 90s Junior here.
I know that I was a less astute observer of the game in Griffey’s heyday than I am now, but before his legs went on him I never heard the same kind of criticisms that are leveled at Jim Edmonds in terms of being out of position or making poor reads.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:42 amWhat do you guys think of Griffey for Turbo and Cairo? With the Reds paying most of Griffey’s remaining salary.
WTF? Why would the Reds even make that trade? Vidro can’t play the field. At all. There’s no DH in the National League. And NL teams can’t afford to throw away a roster spot on Cairo with all the double switches and whatnot that goes on.
The Reds aren’t completely stupid. They’re going to recognize the M’s love affair with Junior and ask for something at least somewhat valuable in return.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:42 amBeniitec
May 12th, 2008 at 11:44 amSterling idea.
What makes you think ANYONE in baseball, even in Cincinnati, is THAT dumb.
Or were you being facetious?
I can’t even make that trade in Baseball Mogul. The other GM says, ‘Shoot me now’.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:46 amFacetious of course. Not that they’d ever make that trade. But that’s two players I’d personally like to see off our roster that’s for sure. Truly thinking about it tho… It’s not totally inconcievable for them to ask for Vidro as at worst Vidro could provide them with some pinch hitting from the bench and their outfield could get younger if they brought a kid up to replace “THE KID”. Say, Vidro and Burke or Rob Johnson. They are looking for a catcher.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:52 amor were… I gues Bako’s been good for them lately.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:56 amI know he’s not playing great right now, but could we PLEASE just take Clement and hide him somewhere. If Beniitec is right and the Reds are looking for a catcher, would Bavasi really consider that kind of a trade? I had an earlier post saying that this was the kind of move I was worried about. Bavasi isn’t that desperate though is he?
May 12th, 2008 at 11:58 amBavasi isn’t that dumb… is he?
May 12th, 2008 at 12:04 pmI hope not, but after watching what happened when he went after Bedard in the offseason, I wouldn’t put it past him. They already extended Kenji so it’s pretty clear that they don’t trust him as a catcher, and since Clement hasn’t been just tearing it up so far with the M’s, I’m curious how Bavasi is evaluating his talent now.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:08 pmC’mon… small sample size on Clement. The guy has a sweet swing. It’s obvious he’s going to start hitting soon. Bavasi wouldn’t trade Clement.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:16 pmThe best athlete to ever play in Seattle?
Junior, followed by Cortez Kennedy.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:18 pmOk, Beniitec, I might not have been clear. I do not want that trade to happen and I feel the same way you do apparently about Clement. I just have a fear that Bavasi will act on the small time Clement has been with the team this year. That’s what I’m getting at.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:20 pmI totally should have listed Cortez Kennedy rather than Jacob Green. Thanks, currcoug. I’d still put Easley tops on the all-time Seahawk defense list, though it’s basically a philosophical difference on whether you prefer peak value (Easley) or career (Kennedy). I’ve never seen a safety have a year like Easley’s Defensive MVP season.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pmI’m really surprised any of this is considered on-topic by the mods. Anyway, these types of discussions are inherently ridiculous, case in point, Shawn Kemp gets no mention whatsoever. He was really really good before he left Seattle.
Comparing players from different positions, sports and eras is a fools errand. I think what’s relevant to the actual discussion of Griffeys trade value is this… ‘95 is the biggest thing that’s happened in professional Seattle Sports since the Sonics won it all, and before the Seahawks made it to the Super Bowl. And bringing Griffey back would at least make this team more interesting to the casual fan.
I think that if we could get him at little talent cost it’d probably pay for itself. I don’t see however, where there’s room for both Griffey and Ibanez on this team. Unless Ibanez could play 1B, and platoon there. But if that were the case we couldn’t be seeing Cairo there.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:42 pmAs far as pure physical gifts, that’s probably true. But I have to say that A-Rod is about as impressive an athlete as has come through the city, because he has the otherworldly genetic athleticism combined with a work ethic that should embarrass us all. As a side note, I wonder how long it will be before the national press starts getting nostalgic about (an aging) A-Rod’s time in Seattle and suggesting that we trade for him.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:43 pmGranted, but still kind of fun. And I loved Shawn Kemp before he destroyed himself.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:47 pmI really don’t understand how you think a $10 million+ salary for a broken down, overrated player whose value is a locked in a bat that has become mediocre could ever pay for itself. Bring him on as a coach after he retires, give him a front office position, but he’s not worth the talent nor the money required to acquire him as a player.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:47 pmI hope they get Griffey back. If they’re going to suck (which they will), I’d love to have more reasons to watch than just Bedard, Felix and Ichiro.
And he is an upgrade over Vidro. Vidro’s mere presence is starting to offend me at this point…getting Griffey would ensure his option won’t vest. And I don’t think they’d have to give up (or be willing to give up), too much to get him.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:50 pmNot really into the whole listing thing, but Walter Jones is up there. He’s been the best LT since basically entering the NFL and is one of the best, if not the best lineman of all time. Hard to say all time, but he’s top 5 at least.
All in all Junior had the biggest impact on the city of Seattle. I think he’s clearly the most loved sports figure in Seattle sports history, and honestly, probably always will be.
I’m sure some people will argue it, but I’m pretty confident in saying he is.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:56 pmYeah, dead right about Walter Jones.
Beltre always gets left out. I love watching Beltre.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:14 pmWhy would you trade for Griffey when he’s going to be available on the market next year (probably)? If you’re going to give up talent, shouldn’t you be trying to replace one of the bigger holes in the lineup? Neither Raul nor Wlad are problems offensively, and if all you’re looking for is 5 months of a DH, there are better pure hitters out there looking for jobs (and not just the one with the asterisk).
Showing interest in Griffey now is stupid, because you’re just encouraging the Reds to pick up his option with the idea of flipping him for some prospects in the offseason. That would be a dumb move in general, but with Seattle out there to trade with it’s a no-brainer.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:16 pmIntangibles. A word that strikes fear in all well educated objective fans, including myself. Flashing back to 01, all I would hear from the bandwagon was how the team had intangibles. There was no need to worry about acquiring another bat or dominating starter for October, because the M’s had chemistry. No matter how hard I tried to explain that the M’s would not match up well against NY in a series, I was always faced with the same brick wall. There is more to a team then just stats.
Yet, here I sit. Absolutely, without hesitation, hoping Seattle brings Griffy home for his intangibles. Rational fans know the Griffey of the 90s is dead, there are no miracles in baseball and although a select few choose to believe otherwise, Griffey is not God. However, this is one of those rare times my gut is telling me that this world does not always make sense. Forty Years from now, I hope to be sitting with my grandchildren discussing the importance of loyalty, integrity, and family. Explaining how those core values brought the M’s back from the brink and turned them into one of the most storied franchises in sports history.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:23 pmObviously this is being pursued right now because management knows he’ll put butts in the seats. And when we SUCK as bad as we do right now, they know they’ll need to sell tickets some other way. And bobblehead giveaways can only go so far.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:25 pmWell, I better trot this out again:
http://www.malchick.com/stuff/griffey.jpg
DMZ, you’re welcome to put that on the front page for this post!
Jimmie
May 12th, 2008 at 1:29 pm“Not really into the whole listing thing, but Walter Jones is up there. He’s been the best LT since basically entering the NFL and is one of the best, if not the best lineman of all time. Hard to say all time, but he’s top 5 at least.”
Yes, definitely. Good call.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:48 pmI’m partial to this LL jpeg:
May 12th, 2008 at 1:55 pmBecause the Reds won’t want any part of Washburn, Cairo, Vidro, or Sexson and the Mariners won’t trade Ibanez, Ichiro, Felix, or Kenji, and hopefully not Clement or Balentien that leaves players the Mariners could trade that might get them something: Bedard, Putz, Lopez, Betancourt, and Beltre.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:15 pmIf they realize that this season is a lost cause, I would think that a trade of Bedard or Betancourt might entice the Reds to give up Griffey plus a decent arm or two, but that might not work so well because the Reds are 7-1/2 games out. But if the Reds were interested in Bedard, Putz, Lopez, Betancourt or Beltre, could Bavasi get Homer Bailey or Johnny Cueto from the Reds along with Griffey?
It would be crazy to trade Bedard or Beltre — especially Bedard — for Griffey.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:17 pmYes it would be crazy to trade any of those guys for Griffey, but if you could get some pitching help in the deal, would that make sense?
May 12th, 2008 at 2:23 pmI may dislike a lot Bavasi’s moves, but if he trades for Griffey, even at the prodding of Armstrong/Lincoln, he won’t give up much. The Reds will not send any good young talent with Griffey, and, aside from a Rob Johnson-ish type prospect, they will not get much.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pmIt is isn’t likely the Reds would want Balentien or Saunders. The Reds are loaded with outfielders, aren’t they?
May 12th, 2008 at 2:29 pmI think the Rays have shown that you shouldn’t worry about where people will play when aquiring quality, young talent. You can sort that out later. If the Reds decided to ask for Saunders in the deal and had no room for him, they could always flip him to someone else for something they do need.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:35 pmGood point.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:41 pmThanks. I’m not sure if the Rays planned it this way all along, but after the Garza trade a little light bulb went off above my head.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:45 pmFor those obsessed on the prospect of a Griffey trade, you can quench your thirst by reading the Enquirer (Cincinnanti.Com) on a daily basis.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:51 pmor the Post, where Jr poo-poos trade talk
May 12th, 2008 at 3:00 pmJunior is as enigmatic as ever.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:17 pmIts so great of many of you to retard or ruin Balentien’s and Clement’s development by bringing in Griffey to block their at bats.
If Griffey were a rookie with the M’s today, he’d be stuck in Tacoma til he’s 24, then given 2 weeks to prove himself. Or traded after 50 major league at bats.
May 12th, 2008 at 8:00 pmI am thinking Bavasi solves the Clement problem by trading him and Morrow to Reds for Griffey. Fits with what they paid for Bedard and think they see Griffey as a fixture for next three years. This is Bavasi’s biggest achilles heal is that he has no idea about evaluating talent and what he has - a stud middle of the order guy like Griffey (not to mention Vidro) must be worth a measley #2 .167 hitting catcher and a young but wild thing reliever like BM.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:03 pmSeriously? We already overpaid for Bedard, who is one of the better pitchers in the AL and is still in his prime. Griffey is 38 and near the end of the line.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:23 pmWlad, Clement, Morrow, Triunfel and Aumont should be untouchable in trade talks for Griffey. The key phrase is “should be”, but I’m holding my breath.
104 “paulkersey”:
Well since this years payroll doesn’t count towards next years payroll in Mariners Math… And this team, I believe, needs to do something sooner than later to slow down the erosion of the fan base. Once you lose a fan it takes a whole lot more to get them back. These “fair weather” fans (opposed to us fairly weathered fans) need something to hold their interest until the team starts winning ballgames again.
It’s like that episosde of the Simpsons where the MLB spy satellite crashes in Springfield, and Mark McGwire hits “a couple dingers” to distract the crowd, while the evidence is removed.
So who wants to see Griffey hit a couple dingers??!!
May 13th, 2008 at 10:09 am