13 May
Stone on Griffey return
Larry knocks out a fine piece on Griffey rumors.
A Griffey homecoming could end up an anti-climactic letdown just as easily as it could be a triumphant valediction for a homegrown Hall of Famer.
Mind you, I think it’s going to happen. Griffey to Seattle is starting to have the distinct feel of inevitability, if all the rumblings in the baseball world are true. The fact that the Mariners had one of Bill Bavasi’s top advisers, Duane Shaffer, in New York over the weekend to reportedly watch Griffey at Shea Stadium is just more fuel to a burgeoning fire.
It’s definitely worth a read. And I believe Dave’s got something on this for later today.
Stone always knocks out a great article … I think his sentiment is close to all of our sentiments … what if it is an anti climactic let down?
It’s a sweet notion, anyway.
I couldn’t agree more Larry.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:37 amI agree - Stone says all you can really say at this point. It’s a nice idea, on the surface, but when you start to look at the details (Griffey’s cost and ability, state of residence, state of the M’s), it starts to fall apart. For those reasons, I doubt it’s going to happen.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:42 am2 - Still though (it may be because of his mystique) I think he has still got something to add and will contribute. I just do not believe he is totally done.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:52 amI think that Griffey will retire a Mariner. But I’d still bet that this will be after he signs a one year sweetheart deal with Seattle in the off-season, not after a mid-season trade.
Still, stranger things have happened. And - despite all - I’d be really surprised if Bavasi gives up more than a token to get him. Bavasi loves veterans, but not that much.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:56 amAnother step backward for the stupidest team in baseball.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:58 amIf the M’s give up any talent, anybody who could help them in later seasons, it’s a waste. I’m not a Griffey sentimentalist like so many here — frankly, I couldn’t care less if Mr Glass Body comes back — but I do recognize he’d be good for the gate (at least until he goes on the DL again, or the magic wears off — which might take all of one homestand). But he’s not going to be here for his 600th home run, and he might not be in baseball for his 700th — and if he is, and it’s in Seattle, it’s because he signed some deal for the years after 2009. Which means the M’s could get him this winter (if the Reds don’t pick up his option) or in ‘10, for just money. Without throwing away more of the future. Without bleeding more young talent in regrettable, lopsided trades for “veterans” (however beloved).
For all the fans whose childhood is wrapped up in Griffey, I hope he comes back here. For the future of the franchise, I hope it’s not this year.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:00 amI think this will happen, and I think it will happen on a much more accelerated timeline than you might think.
I don’t have any sources for that, it’s just a gut feeling. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Junior in a Mariners uniform by the end of May.
And really, depending on how much talent the team gives up (I really couldn’t care less about what they end up paying towards his salary), it might be anywhere from a mildly positive move to a total disaster.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:00 amAh, I feel like we should be sending our guesses in for the ‘When do the M’s aquire He Who Shall Not Be Named?’ contest.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:05 amThen again how many deals we thought were going to help us at the deadline that we all thought would happen didnt?
I would be surprised as hell if he ended up a Mariner in 08
May 13th, 2008 at 9:07 amSCREW Ken Griffey. Seriously, people, are you really that keen to throw away the NEXT six years like you threw away the last six? Good for the gate? No, what would be good for the goddamn gate is building a good team for the future, not pretending it’s still 1995.
SCREW Nineteen-ninety-five. Screw Ken Griffey.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:11 amThe only sane place to put Griffey is at DH, given his declining skills and injury-proneness. In a vacuum (that is, not taking into account the absurd number of DHs we seem hell bent on aquiering)it seems OK, I mean we all agree this team could use another left handed bat with some pop, but the problem is Griffey wants to play in the field and I just can’t justify throwing money at an injury waiting to happen.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:16 am10 - Screw Ken Griffey? Man you are whack.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:16 amI agree. Once again, Griffey controls his destination. Why would he want to come here and play out the string with a terrible team? I’m sure his agent is looking around for a someplace more interesting (Tampa, as an OF platoon and DH?). When Griffey is ready to hang it up, he can sign a one-day contract here, start writing his HOF speech, and see his number retired.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:19 amI know emotions are high around this issue, but let’s keep the tone in check, guys. On both sides.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:20 amThe only thing more pathetic than having Griffey on the team this year…. Is having him on the team for 09 and 2010. Has Griffey hinted at all that this will be his last year? I certainly hope so, this organization is dumb enough to bring him back, lets just hope it only lasts one year.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:22 amacquiring
May 13th, 2008 at 9:23 am13 - Jeff I tried to make my post as little a personal dis as possible. believe me, I thought everything Steve wrote in post 10 is completely against USSM rules. I know I have violated my share… but never a Mariner legend. Just upsetting that his only argument was SCREW GRIFFEY. SCREW 1995!
i mean wtf mate?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:24 amThere is little doubt this deal will get done. Any GM willing to deal for Vidro and pay his ridiculous salary will surely deal for Griffey. My concerns are the option year in ‘09 that will almost certainly have to be picked up and the two top shelf prospects (Triunfel?) Bavasi will be fleeced of.
It really sucks knowing we are only a quarter of the way through the season and we have nothing to play for besides third place in the AL West.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:27 amActually, I think the Giants (Lincecum notwithstanding) might have beaten us to that dubious title.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:29 amGRIFFEY IN 08! The Greatest Mariner of all time… I don’t care if he has lost a step or 3. He will bring a leadership that has been missing for years. I prefer to be a Mariner fan with my heart instead of my brain sometimes. I’m not alone on this!
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 am@12 — I’m not “whack”, I’m just sick of a team that doesn’t believe in the future. The past is PAST. The Griffey we’re getting is not The Kid; he’s a broken-down old man. And regardless of what he brings or doesn’t bring to the team on the field, he represents something: the idea that we can move forward by moving backward. Acquiring Griffey means that the team has decided that winning in 2009, 2010, and beyond ISN’T IMPORTANT TO THEM.
And that’s just it: it’s the not caring that pisses me off more than the losing. This team has problems that have OBVIOUS ANSWERS, but they have ignored them for years and years and years.
Going for Griffey is like watching a recovering drug addict decide that maybe he can have one last pull on the crack pipe and still find a job tomorrow.
If they signed him for just through 2009, for about what they pay Bloomquist, I’d be OK with it. Stick him in left so Raul can DH, it’s not a disaster. But that’s not what they’re going to do. They’re going to do the same thing you’re doing: glorifying him, and pretending that he’s still an elite player, and giving him everything he wants and more, and selling it to the public as if the prodigal son has arrived at last and our season is rescued.
Those are lies.
I’m tired of being lied to.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 amI don’t recall seeing “Thou shalt not speak ill of Mariner Legends” on the USSM rules list.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:36 amThis team is bad anyways. Also, it is not like just because we don’t sign Griffey that Bavasi and the FO is going to magically turn the team around. We are going to be bad with or without Griffey as long as we have the current FO regime. I would prefer to watch a bad team with Griffey on it.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:37 amAgain, this talk of the Mariners going out and “getting” Griffey presumes *way* too much. Griffey has to want to come here. Can anyone find one good reason why he would come back to play for Seattle this season?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:39 amIt worked for the Avs bringing back Forsberg, who only ended up playing about half the games he was back for. They made the playoffs and ticket sales went up. But mostly it made them watchable even though everyone knew they were not winning the cup.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:39 amThe Captain says:
He will bring a leadership that has been missing for years. I prefer to be a Mariner fan with my heart instead of my brain sometimes. I’m not alone on this!
First off, Griffey has never and will never be considered a leader. Second, The M’s are not losing due to a lack of leadership…see lack of talent.
As much as I adore Griffey, he is and always will be my favorite Mariner, I just don’t want to see him in a Mariner uniform again as a shell of his former self.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:40 amThat’s the spirit HAMMY!
May 13th, 2008 at 9:40 amSeriously, Griffey was great, but when was he ever particularly a leader? How is he going to be one now? Where has he led Cincinnati?
If people must bring back Griffey for sentimental reasons, okay. But let’s not pretend it’s anything but sentimental. He is now a mediocre player, and there is nothing magical about him that is going to turn this team around. It’s a feel-good story. That’s all.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:46 amUgh, who let the people from Baker’s blog on here?
Isn’t this the guy who wanted to revoke my fan card?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:46 amAh, the man with the bionic foot (er, is it a glass foot?). But you’re right, that was a strategy that definitely put butts in the seats for them.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:47 amHamNasty, it’s a lot easier to make the playoffs in the NHL. That’s not going to happen here, even if the Mariners bring in a good player instead of a legend on his last legs.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:47 amGuys, PLEASE don’t turn this into a “Griffey fan club” versus “Griffey sucks club” dust-up? I’m asking nicely.
Debating the pros and cons of picking him up are fine, but let’s be respectful of each others’ viewpoints on the issue.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:49 am[no]
May 13th, 2008 at 9:49 amI know, the M’s have zero chance of making the playoffs even with Griffey.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:51 amThe team will continue to make another 15 bad moves before the year is over. If one of those bad moves would mean I get to watch Griffey then I would be ok with it. I just hope for once a bad FO move leads me to want to watch the games with joy instead of boredom and hate.
This deal would be classic Mariners, and as a kid growing up watching Griffey at his peak, it’s hard to be anything other than conflicted.
The M’s love to do anything to market a team. What’s more marketable than “Griffey’s back?” It would certainly fill up the ball park day in day out until, as someone pointed out, he goes on the DL. If he’s in the field, then that seems like an inevitability.
However, if Bavasi was to throw some mediocre prospects at Cincy, eat the salary and put him at DH, then this move could work. But that’s pretty unlikely. I’m just hoping we don’t send Clement to the Reds (they need a catcher…) and stick Griffey in RF while eating his enormous salary for the next two years. That seems a lot more likely.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:56 amFan or not the Griffey arguement will bring about a heated debate. Oh course he might be struggling but so is this team. He makes me remeber a time when the Mariners struck fear throughout the entire league. Sorry for the fan card comment.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:58 amHow much would you give up to get a players EXACTLY like Griffey but whose name was Bill Smith?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Griffey won the MVP in 1997. Larry Walker won in the NL; do you want him? Other guys who finished close behind those two: Tino Martinez, David Justice, Tim Salmon, Nomar, Paul O’Neill, Rafael Palmiero, Jay Buhner, Jeff Bagwell, Tony Gwynn, Andres Galarraga, Raul Mondesi, Ray Lankford. You interested in any of them?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:04 amIf one of those bad moves would mean I get to watch Griffey then I would be ok with it
He’s not the same guy you remember from the 90’s, man. Pop in a video of ‘95 of you want to relive some of those (very awesome) memories.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:05 amI’m sorry, but that’s demonstrably not true. Go read coverage of Griffey-year Mariner teams, or better yet, Art Thiel’s book. Griffey nearly ran those teams.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:08 amThe FO is going to do one of two things in my eyes. Make a bad deal for Griffey OR make a bad deal for someone else. If there was secret option three of not make a bad deal I would take it in a heartbeat. However, between one and two I will take the Griffey option. That is all I am saying.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:09 amYeah, and if you’re going to roll the ‘95 tape, be sure keep watching through the Cleveland series. ‘95 was a FAILURE, remember.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:10 am37: Well, Larry Walker is a BC kid, after all…they could always work that “local guy” angle into it!
May 13th, 2008 at 10:15 amAs long as the talent given up (honestly, the best-case scenario for this is for the Ms to not give up any players and just agree to pay Griffey’s salary, but I don’t see that happening) isn’t out of whack given Griffey’s current value as a player…
I wouldn’t mind a trade for him. This year is a loss anyway, it wouldn’t tie up resources beyond this year, and it’d make this team a little less dreadful to watch for the remainder of the year and/or put more butts in the seats.
If you want to send a C-level prospect or two to the Reds and pick up most of Griffey’s salary, go to town.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:16 amThis is why I cannot read this thread. I honestly believe that Griffey is getting all sorts of BLATANTLY False accusations on this thread.
USSM is the best Mariners Blog in my humble opinion but some comments like #41 for example not only turn me off but greatly upset me.
It’s one thing to say he wont contribute to our team this year, which has validitiy its another thing to say: SCREW GRIFFEY
and WORSE
HEY STEVE, DO YOU KNOW WHY THE MARINERS DIDN’T MOVE? NEWSFLASH: BECAUSE OF 95. I DONT KNOW WHERE YOU WERE, BUT THAT RUN WAS DURING THE VOTE TO APPROVE THE FREAKING STADIUM.
This is just gross. Side note: Art Thiel’s book is a great foundation to learn what actually happened Steve.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:17 amI don’t think that *anybody* looks at Junior as an elite player any more, and I don’t believe that Bavasi is so incompetent that we’d give up any real prospects for him… (It could be interesting though if we could work in a trade for a salary bandit or two off of our roster (Vidro, Washburn)).
Currently as it stands this offense is so bad (It’s going to take some consistency for me to think that last night’s 12 spot was anything more than an aberration) that Griffey could provide a boost over what we currently have. Who knows, best case scenario is that the rest of the team feeds off the energy thrown at him.
If we can find a way to get him back without hosing Balentin / Clement, I’m actually for this move. The M’s making the post season is a long shot at this point, but watching Junior again in an M’s uniform could make the next ~120 games more enjoyable.
just my $0.02
May 13th, 2008 at 10:18 amP.S. Just a sidenote: Jim Edmonds is about to clear waivers. He’s fairly comparable to Junior at this point in their respective careers.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:21 am#22 - I think the rule is “Thou shalt not speak ill of Doyle”
May 13th, 2008 at 10:23 amSteve - You’ve got a point there. For as much fun as that year was, I wish somenone would remind Rick Rizzs of that very obvious fact every time he gets bored on the air and takes us on yet another freakin’ trip down memory lane.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:23 amI want to see this team shedding veterans, not acquiring them.
I guess it’s down to what excites you. There are no surprises with Griffey; all of his excitement is in the past, and of the past. If you want to relive that, fine. It doesn’t excite me, though; young players excite me — players for whom the future hasn’t happened yet, for whom it is unknown. I’d rather go see a promising if a bit unsteady band of youngsters than the doddering old Rolling Stones, too.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:24 amSince I said something similar, I’ll take it back.
There’s no reason to think Griffey is going to lead this team, though. The old teams grew up around him and were built on him. And he was great then.
Even if he did step in and start running this team, and all the players who have been here accepted that, and even if he did suddenly regain some of his youth, leadership isn’t what’s missing from this team, and isn’t going to make it good. (Not saying you’re saying so, Derek; responding to the assertions of “The Captain”.)
May 13th, 2008 at 10:25 am[if you're so frustrated that you can't post without using all caps, take a break for a while]
May 13th, 2008 at 10:26 am[]
May 13th, 2008 at 10:28 am1995 was only a failure in the peculiar American sense in which not finishing number one is a failure; in which all teams but one are failures. I was disappointed at the end of the 1995 season, but it was great while it lasted, and the memory is sweet. If you can only remember it as a FAILURE, I feel sorry for you.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:28 amJust another thought on this (lest I get flamed)…yes, 1995 was, indeed, the season that saved the franchise.
I just don’t need Rizzy to keep raving endlessly (as he often does) about the first time we almost — though still didn’t — win the pennant.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:30 amIm sorry DMZ let me rewrite it.
48, and 41
You call getting into the playoffs for the first time ever a failure? You call forcing a 1 game playoff after one of the best runs of all time a failure? You call rushing the turf of the kingdome after randy pitches a complete game? You call coming back down 0-2 against the Yankee’s to get to the ALCS a failure? All in our first playoff appearance?
I will say it again. 95 is the Only reason we have a stadium in Seattle.
And the only reason the team is still here. Do the research.
It is so frustrating to listen to this blasphemy. I’m sorry.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:31 amI wish American sports were like the English football league, with the three cups. The Mariners were the best team in baseball in 1995 over a whole season, and one of the best teams ever. They weren’t built as well for the postseason schedule, but that doesn’t negate the great things they accomplished that year, and how much fun it was.
I still don’t need Griffey back to remember it, though.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:31 amPlayoffs in 1997 - now that was a failure if you want to talk about it.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:33 amGrr. Strike the “best team in baseball” line, and apply it to 2001. When they were also a FAILURE.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:33 amIt’s not as simple as this.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:34 am58 - I agree, 2001 was a failure as well. I think we have all blacked that season out of our minds … but boy were we good then.
That season was very fun. Until Juiced Clemens broke our hearts.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:34 amLooking on the bright side, the Atlanta Braves should be eternally grateful to the M’s. After all, we did “soften up” the Indians enough that year to where they beat the crap out of them in the WS.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:35 amIf it isn’t clear, I don’t think of 1995 or 2001 as failures. They were great seasons, immense fun, and I’m not going to write that off because they didn’t win the championship.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:36 amIt wasn’t Derek, it was me. And casting people whose opinions differ from yours as “blasphemy” isn’t acceptable whether it’s done in all caps or not.
Cut it out.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:36 amSeeing some of the rather extreme views in the comments here makes me appreciate Larry Stone’s even-handed treatment of the topic that much more. I thought it was a solid article.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:37 amJeff -
It is not about ideas, it’s about calling a season that saved baseball in Seattle a failure. Plain and simple. I’m not trying to enforce my ideas on anyone. Look at the Sonics now.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:38 amYo, jspektor, I’ve read Thiel’s book, and I’ve been following the M’s since 1977. I’ve sat in the concrete bowl of the Kingdome with 4,000 other fans, and I’ve sat in plenty of other stadiums with my M’s cap on with the home fans slapping me and blowing horns in my ear (thank you, Oakland). I’ve ridden buses three hours to watch the M’s play — and three hours back — more than once. That ‘95 series against the Yankees? I watched every game of that IN NEW YORK, in a bar full of hostile Yankee fans. There’s no reason for you to know all that, but my M’s fan bona fides are solid gold.
That’s because I’m stupid. But it’s not good enough anymore.
I want something in return now; what I’ve been getting isn’t good enough. It’s more than just winning: it’s making the best effort to win. We’re not doing that and we’ve NEVER done that. We’ve gotten lucky, with four of the best players to ever play the game — Martinez, Griffey, Johnson, and Rodriguez — but we’ve never helped ourselves. We’ve never, ever, ever been smart.
That’s what rankles about Griffey. It’s not that he sucks, or that he’s totally useless. It’s the attitude behind the move — it’s what the move would say about this franchise. It says “we don’t give a damn about the future, we don’t give a damn about winning baseball games; we only care about generating family-friendly nostalgic excitement. Safeco itself is a monument to nostalgia.
Losing is, of course, the ultimate nostalgia. Watching Miguel Freaking Cairo play first base brings back crippling memories of Pete O’Brien doing the same thing there. You know what they call baseball clubs that start Miguel Cairo or Pete O’Brien at first base? Laughingstocks.
So, yeah, 1995 was fun and all, but it was THIRTEEN YEARS AGO. Those young fans at the park they’re trying to get excited, the ones who will remember our 2011 World Championship for the rest of their lives? They weren’t even born then. Get over it. We had a nice run, we had some exciting wins, and we came back from the dead, and then we LOST. WE LOST.
You know what I see when I see clips of 1995? I see a ballclub saying “screw it, here’s some rotten meat, you’re never getting any fresh ever again, so make the best of it”. I see a ballclub saying “Remember this? Wasn’t it great? Want to see that again? Too bad, because we’re never going to win again, because we don’t care enough to act smart”.
Getting Griffey back would be a monument to that sort of thinking. The future? Screw the future, let’s all dissolve into a fuzzy glow and remember the past. That sort of thinking turns me off more than words can possibly describe.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am66 - everything you have said i agree with. I still think about it with fond memories, but it doesnt affect my decision making now. It is not that I think with Griffey back we will be on some magical run.
but I think you are misinterpreting my point. This blog wouldn’t exist if it wasnt for 1995. We wouldnt be discussing whether or not to get Junior back if it wasnt for that season. You just can’t call something like that a failure
I’m sorry
May 13th, 2008 at 10:46 amI’m pretty sure that it would.
And uh, I have to think my opinion is pretty close to a definitive answer on that particular question.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:48 amOh, and my imaginary “Bill Smith”, who is exactly the same as Griffey in every respect — same age, same stats, same injury history — I’d rather have him than Griffey. Because he wouldn’t come with baggage. He wouldn’t come with nostalgia — the most poisonous emotion. I want this team to be absolutely clear-eyed about their future, and I think Griffey clouds that. To be honest, I don’t WANT them to fill the stadium and still suck — I want them to become a better team. I don’t want to be a Cubs fan.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:51 amI will say it again. 95 is the Only reason we have a stadium in Seattle.
That’s all well and good, but the only reason ‘95 happened is that the team made decisions to improve the organization at that time. It didn’t happen because the team was bringing in players for their nostalgic value.
I would guess that you were probably fairly young during that ‘95 season. Now think about Mariners fans (or perhaps I should say potential Mariners fans) who are that age today. They probably don’t remember any of the excitement from that ‘95 season. The front office has an obligation to give those fans some new memories that will hook them on baseball the same way that Griffey and the ‘95 Mariners helped hook you on baseball.
At age 38, Griffey is a role player. He has one or two average-ish skills left, but he also has significant flaws as a player. I don’t think anyone is against intelligently incorporating him into the roster, but what many people don’t want is for Griffey to be added under the premise that he can save the team. Because 38-year-old Griffey can’t save this team, even though he was the best player at his position during the ’90s.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:51 amAmen to that.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:52 amNY TIMES article the day of election
A count of 35,000 absentee ballots released late today showed the measure winning by a scant 310 votes out of 470,000 cast. The final 15,000 votes will be counted by Monday, but if the steady upward trend holds — reflecting voters who made their decision during a sudden pennant drive — then the measure could hold on to win.
It all came together on a high-drama election night. By the sixth inning, the Mariners were down, 4-1, and the early election returns — most of them absentee ballots cast up to a month ago — showed the stadium measure trailing by 20 points.
By the eighth inning, on a home run by Ken Griffey Jr., the Mariners had closed to 4-2, and word spread throughout the stadium that the vote had narrowed to a 10-point spread. The Mariners tied the game in the ninth, and the vote totals showed it was 6 points apart. In the bottom of the 11th inning, Griffey lined a single into left field, and Doug Strange scored the winning run from second.
There was pandemonium in Pioneer Square, where the Mariners play and where Home Town Fans, the group that worked to get the measure on the ballot, has its headquarters. By midnight, the stadium measure was tied. A few minutes later, with all but the absentee votes counted, it had a narrow lead.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:55 amIf it means anything, jspektor, I don’t agree with you at all, but I understand what you mean, and I don’t take exception at all. I’m not mad, and I didn’t ask for your hot words to be redacted.
All I really want is for them to stop showing those ‘95 highlights on TV whenever they think the fans need rallying. “I know we suck, but — LOOK HERE! LOOK HOW SHINY!” It’s embarrassing. You won’t see that in Cleveland, and they got closer than we did that year.
As for this blog, my calculations suggest that if ‘95 hadn’t happened Derek would now be farming seaweed in the Faroe Islands, and losing sleep over the big football rivalry with Leichtenstein and San Marino.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:57 amposted yesterday, but FWIW, Griffey talking to the NY Post about the trade rumoring
May 13th, 2008 at 11:00 am73 -
Another thing, as you can read in that article (which is pretty crazy to read now that we all know the ending) the measure was losing by a 2-1 margin. You have to believe that our run during that season saved baseball here.
Even the game on that day.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:01 amHaha. This is getting a bit out of hand.
I don’t think anyone on this blog would be in favor of sending Aumont & Co. to Cincinnati in exchange for Griffey. But if we get a deal done the right way (where we lose minimal prospects — that’s really all that matters) and use Griffey the right way, then what’s the harm in energizing the casual fans in Seattle?
This season won’t be lost or resurrected, but it could get people excited about baseball. And who knows what that could do.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:01 amTo me, whether the decision to bring Jr back would be a good one or bad one really depends upon what the Ms would give up (body-wise/moola-wise) and what role he’d assume. We know he can’t play defense and his power has disappeared even though he plays half of his games in a homer-friendly environment. That said, if it’s simply a matter of eating some money and jettisoning Vidro so Jr can DH, well, I’m not going to condemn the notion.
To scream ya or nah about his potential return right now seem premature, doesn’t it?
The Reds would consider it a triumph to simply get rid of Jr. Bavasi should have leverage on this one….
May 13th, 2008 at 11:02 amDMZ says:
I’m sorry, but that’s demonstrably not true. Go read coverage of Griffey-year Mariner teams, or better yet, Art Thiel’s book. Griffey nearly ran those teams.
I will take your word for it as I would have to enjoy Thiel’s PI work in order to want to buy, or even check out, a book from him. I have no doubt that Griffey ‘ran’ the Mariner teams of the 90’s. He was an extremely talented player with charisma. My statement came, in part, from watching him decide not to run out routine ground balls, *hearing* that he insisted the Safeco roof be closed (I don’t honestly know if this was ever substantiated), and forcing a trade and insisting on only being sent to Cincinnati. These things didn’t sit well with me. I don’t think those are things a leader would do.
But do I agree that he ‘ran’ the clubhouse? Absolutely. I think that what I should have said in response to The Captain was, “citing Griffey’s leadership skills as a primary reason for bringing him back to the Mariners in 2008 is, in my opinion, way ‘Out of Left Field.’”
May 13th, 2008 at 11:03 amMSB - 74
That is a very very intriguing article. In my interpretation it looks as if Griffey doesn’t want to come back because we arent a contender. That’s too bad.
I would be surprised if he comes here, Actually.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:03 amBTW guys, it’s only baseball.
That said, baseball blogs aren’t punching bags….there are professionals available who are trained specifically to help those with the kind of problems that might make one need to use a baseball blog as a punching bag……
May 13th, 2008 at 11:06 am[nope]
May 13th, 2008 at 11:06 amI have to say — give it a shot. You can find it used at many Seattle-area bookstores for a couple bucks, and there’s an enormous amount of inside information that makes it worthwhile. I was annoyed by some of the writing myself, but as a Mariner fan, it’s worth sitting down and seeing if you can tolerate the things that make you not like his PI stuff, beacuse some of the stuff about the politicing is amazing.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:12 amI’m tired of watching Richie Sexson flailing away at balls in the dirt with men on base for the third out. I, for one, would much rather watch Griff wear number 24 again and the sooner the better. I only have two requests: please don’t let him take the field and don’t mortgage the future to do it.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:21 amI know this is an innocent attempt to calm people down. But everything short of world-changing work is “only” something. We’re all here because we’re passionate about the Mariners. Of course we should strive to be civil. But the passion of the conversation is a natural outgrowth of the passion we feel for baseball, and our team. If we really felt like it was “only baseball”, none of us would be here.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:24 amDo you have any thoughts about Kirby Arnold’s recent book on the M’s?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:24 amthat’s one of the ‘Tales from the _________dugout’ series, right?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:27 amPassion needs some perspective…. I’m passionate about my wife and my family and baseball. I’ll only run in front of a speeding bus for my wife and family however….
Also, passion shouldn’t be a synonym for venting, vitriol and otherwise poor behavior.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:28 am[Balentien!]
May 13th, 2008 at 11:32 amAs nice as that run in ‘95 was — and as instrumental as it was in saving the franchise (and I do mean saving it — with as fickle as the fan base is in Tampa, moving there might very well have led the M’s straight to Bud’s “contraction list”), I, too, agree that we need to look toward the future rather than the past to get this team to where it needs to be.
Running the constant highlights of the ‘95 or ‘01 seasons every time the fans get pi**ed off (and rightly so) over the way this team flounders about struggling to win games is a bit like one of the old hard-line Stalinist states during the Cold War running documentaries extolling the “glories of the Revlolution” — while the masses stand in line for hours at stores for the few available items that are left on the shelves.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:34 amI agree, Terry. I’m just allergic to the “it’s only baseball” formulation, because that’s so often used dismissively by people who don’t share the passion and also think you should have perspective, i.e., theirs.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:35 amHypothetically, I guess one could argue that roughly $8M of Jr could potentially buy $20M of Wlad or Clement if one of them get send back to Tacoma.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:36 amI would be perfectly happy if Bavasi took Griffey off the Reds’ hands, eating the entire contract, for basically nothing in return. Griffey is really not very valuable, given the ratio of his production to his salary. Since this Ms team is not going to contend, and next year’s Ms team is unlikely to contend, I’d be ok with seeing some loss-cutting moves (Vidro released, Ibanez traded to a contender (I know that that won’t happen, with the way Ibanez is viewed by the FO)) combined with trying to build interest in watching the team rebuild, in part, by combining ‘the kids’ (Clement, [Balentien!!!!], Hernandez, Lopez, Betancourt) with The Kid.
Basically, I’d be fine with picking up Griffey if he A) could be gotten without giving up talent and B) the acquisition was part of a plan to keep the team at least moderately interesting to watch while rebuilding, instead of as part of a horribly misguided plan to somehow contend in 2009 with him.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:40 amWould the Reds take Kenji straight up? They need a catcher and we can’t win anyway this year. Let Clement and Burke platoon behind the plate. That will keep Clement’s bat in the line-up and let him work on his catching.
Griffey to Right. WLAD to Left. Raul to DH. Vidro on the bench, so his option doesn’t kick in. That would help the offense, the defense, and the future.
Only problem would be Kenji’s slump and new contract.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:42 amKenji for Griffey would be way, way too much, current slump or not.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:55 amStrictly from an entertainment value standpoint I’d much rather they pick up Bonds than Griffey. Not only would it make for more entertaining games (just think of the fans that will turn out for road games — anywhere the M’s play will be a hot ticket for anybody with a piece of posterboard and a giant asterisk), watching the blogosphere melt down will be hilarious. The season’s over, so why the hell not? If Bavasi thinks he’s going to get fired anyway, this would be one of the greatest last gestures in the history of the game.
Then the new GM can come in and pick up Griffey for ‘09 and make everybody happy.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:57 amI doubt Griffey even wants to come here. I know he wants to win. If he waves his 10-5 to come here, then we will have to pick up his option for next year.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:12 pmYa.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:22 pmJeff- I think it would be a lop-sided trade too (Kenji for Griff), but I’d rather have them trade a player that is up there in age and with a bad contract than give up the future kids who will contribute…I still get sick to my stomach over the Bedard deal, and his talent is on a whole other level than where Griff is at now…think if we give up more of our B or A level prospects for the current Griffey…
May 13th, 2008 at 12:25 pm“P.S. Just a sidenote: Jim Edmonds is about to clear waivers. He’s fairly comparable to Junior at this point in their respective careers.”
Very true …
I’m OK with bringing back Griffey but ONLY if the M’s don’t give up anything of significant value and if the Reds eat nearly all of his remaining salary and any deferred money. Otherwise the team should just wait until next year and sign Jr. as a free agent.
Let’s all be honest with each other and realize that this team is going nowhere this year, with or without Jr … so acquiring him this year is nothing more than pandering to nostalgia, period. And I can certainly understand how fans like Steve T are tired of that. I am sick of 1995 references myself.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:25 pmGriffey put up a 119 OPS+ last year. Edmonds hasn’t done that since 2005. Junior’s also maintaining his K:BB and contact rate well, showing his bat speed and reflexes can still hang. Edmonds is doing neither. Griffey will hold up much better in the near future than Jim Edmonds.
I would be for a Griffey acquisition, as long as the M’s wouldn’t have to give up anything significant. With his salary and relative value, it’s quite possible they wouldn’t. The money the team would have to cover on his contract would most likely be recouped well with the resulting rebound in ticket and merchandise sales. And hell, it’d be fun.
Of course, this is all assuming Clement and Balentien would get all the playing time they can handle. There’s no reason Sexson and/or Vidro couldn’t be subtracted from the equation to make that happen.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:42 pmHas anyone stepped back and considered the long term franchise/financial benefits of bringing Griffey home? Even if his performance turns out to be a wash in the next couple years, we will still get one of the greatest baseball players of all time going into the HOF in a Mariner uniform. Increased ticket sales, advertising, and merchandise sales would all rise as a result of bringing Griffey back, which leads to more money for better players in the future.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:43 pmI was listening to the post game show last night and they were talking about this subject. I don’t usually care for Dave Valle’s opinion, but he brought up a good point yesterday. He asked the question, “what do you do if picking up Griffey’s option year at 16.5 million is the only way that he would come back?” I don’t know about everybody else, but I can see no way of justifying that move. If that was the only way to get him back would that change anybody’s mind? Everybody keeps talking about not giving up any talent, but are you willing to pay him that kind of money to be here next year also? Personally, I say hell no.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:47 pmGriffey went to Cincinatti, a team that wasn’t a winner.
He’s also already said he won’t DH, he wants to play in the field. So best case scenario is Griffey in left, Ichiro in center, and Wlad in right?
May 13th, 2008 at 12:49 pmIf this is a “couple year thing”, then hold the phone, Nelly. No way.
Besides, he’ll probably go into the HOF as a Mariner regardless of whether he gets traded to Seattle this season or not.
May 13th, 2008 at 12:50 pmBeing a Canadian and having a father who tried to break into the NHL…I grew up being a huge hockey fan..in fact in any given season I could give you stats and or the roster for pretty much any of the 16-18 teams in the league. I never gave a second thought to baseball…it seemed boring to watch and I didn’t know any of the players…
Fast forward to 1995…my girlfriend at the time dragged me to Seattle for my first baseball game. Seattle played the Red Sox and it went extras..the Sox won it in the 14th but it was a hell of a game. That year I became a casual fan at first and of course by the end of the season I was hooked. I watched every playoff game nd forgot all about hockey…
From 1995 up until last summer I have made the trek down to Seattle to catch at least one series every summer. I watch every game I can on MLB gameday and everyone that knows me knows I am a huge M’s fan. I hardly even watch hockey anymore…
Griffey and co. that year made me the baseball fan that I am today. Besides the 6 or 7 Mariners jerseys hanging in my closet, I have one Reds jersey in there as well with Griffey’s name and number on it. So you can imagine what my thoughts are on bringing Griffey back to Seattle. I’m not stupid enough to think he would contribute enough to make us into a contender. But at the same time, we’re not going to be a contender anyways. So as long as we don’t give up anything of too much value, bring Griffey back as soon as possible, at the very least, it would give some of us a reason to watch this team…
May 13th, 2008 at 12:55 pmOh…and sorry about the 1995 references…
May 13th, 2008 at 12:56 pmAm I the only one who remembers this bullshit:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/jr07.shtml
I do not now, nor did I then, believe Griffey received any death threats. On my list of ex-Mariners, he ranks below even A-Rod.
I’d a booed the shit out of him if I’d have been there last year.
It’s Felix Day. I don’t want to have to hear about Griffey.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:02 pm#78:
I am not a fan of Art Thiel’s writing style at all. Like many columnists, he can’t get out of the way of his own hyper-glib prose to make a cogent point. It’s more important to him to get lost in the thickets of Dennis-Milleresque obscure pop-culture references than it is to say whatever it is he meant to say when he started.
There’s some of that in “Out Of Left Field.” But the story — and the stories behind the story — are worth navigating the usual hey-look-at-how-clever-and-witty-I-am Thiel style.
As DMZ wrote in a published review years ago (and I’m paraphrasing a bit here): “It’s a triumph of story over storytelling.”
May 13th, 2008 at 1:06 pmI know it got heated in here, but based off of that article MSB posted I really do not see Junior coming back to Seattle this year … and maybe not even as a free agent.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:06 pm[long link]
May 13th, 2008 at 1:06 pmI think bringing in players because they “get the fans fired up” instead of “because they’re good” is bad, bad strategy. How fired up are those fans going to be if we lose 100 games with Griffey? Every penny, every c-grade prospect we give up for him is a penny or a prospect that can’t be used for something else. And even thinking about the deal, if that’s what Bavasi is doing, is stealing mental energy away from things we really need him to use it on.
But then, I’d be against aquiring him even if he penciled out as a net plus for the squad, simply because it’s looking backward, not forward.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:14 pmHere are the reasons bringing Griffey makes sense.
1. 60 games x $30/ticket x 5000 (additional attendance per game due to Griffey) = $9 million
2. About 10,000 jerseys are sold that say Griffey on the back.
3. Makes really depressed corporate sponsers happy (ok less depressed)
4. As much as we all bitch about Ibanez’s defense why aren’t we excited about this. You know Griffey has played left field for Seattle before….
5. It will make the games worth watching again….
Obviously Jr. is not the solution to all the team problems but he cannot make this team worse.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:14 pmI don’t think anyone is against intelligently incorporating him into the roster
Which, with this front office, falls into the “if my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle” category of hypotheticals that have nothing to do with reality.
They’re already playing 3 DHs in the field at various times (Sexson, Raul, Vidro). Adding a fourth to a team that has a terrible defense, just because we remember him playing a sweet CF almost a decade and several hamstring injuries ago isn’t going to help… while it IS par for the course for this management team (which seems to believe quality on defense stems from front office people and announcers saying you’re awesome).
May 13th, 2008 at 1:19 pmIncreased ticket sales, advertising, and merchandise sales would all rise as a result of bringing Griffey back, which leads to more money for better players in the future.
We’ve had better ticket sales advertising, and merchandise sales than Cleveland and Oakland since 2003, which has meant more money from 2004-2008. How’s that worked out so far in terms of better players in 2008?
Yeah, I thought so.
Sorry, I don’t buy the idea that making stupid roster decisions now that are “fan-friendly” buys you championships down the road. The Cubs have insane fan loyalty, a record of mediocre to bad management, and it’s 1906 and counting for them. Fix the decision-making if you want to win.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:27 pm111-You don’t think we’d lose those same 100 games without Grffey?
May 13th, 2008 at 1:28 pm112 - I’ve already got my custom Junior jersey. Got it last year with the beautiful 30th anniversary patch. Boy that is a beautiful patch.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:30 pmHappy Felix Day btw everyone…I am predicting an M’s victory tonight!!!
May 13th, 2008 at 1:33 pmAs much as we all bitch about Ibanez’s defense why aren’t we excited about this. You know Griffey has played left field for Seattle before…
Because Griffey and Ibanez have the same basic skill set at this point: mash RHP, flail against LHP, terrible defense, and the “Aw , he’s an ORIGINAL MARINER!!11!!!1!! From our farm system!!!111!!!” cute and cuddly factor for the fans.
Oh, and both of them bitch about DHing, which is where they belong.
Sorry, no sale. Not on a team with too many DHs playing the field already.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:33 pmWhich, with this front office, falls into the “if my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle” category of hypotheticals that have nothing to do with reality.
I still think that it’s important to distinguish between being against acquiring Griffey at all costs and being against using Griffey the wrong way/poor roster construction. The former sounds like a personal problem with Griffey, and the latter sounds like a rational concern.
And in the past, the front office hasn’t needed any 1995ness to bring in a defensively challenged overpaid veteran, so if we’re going by the whole “this front office is bad so any good moves are purely hypothetical” line of thought, if they miss on Griffey, wouldn’t we just expect them to bring in the next Carl Everett?
May 13th, 2008 at 1:37 pm118 - Griffey is a league average defensive RF. He would be one the best defensive LF. There is no comparison between Ibanzez and Griffey. Griffey has much more range and arm stenghth.
With Griffey in LF, the M’s would have one of the best defensive outfields.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:42 pmOn the surface, does the idea of seeing Griffey in an M’s uni make me smile? Of course it does. However that smile could rapidly turn into gnashing teeth restraining well pronounced curse words depending on what the geniuses running the team give up (prospects) and take on ($).
I have no doubt Griffey would be a better option for the AB’s going to the likes of Cairo, Willie, Vidro…but only if he is part of an outfield/DH rotation. I can’t believe this season has come to this so quickly. From “contenders” to a dog and pony show by May. I’m not at all shocked we are not contending but I did not expect to be rooting for such a joke.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pmDMZ said:
I have to say — give it a shot. You can find it used at many Seattle-area bookstores for a couple bucks, and there’s an enormous amount of inside information that makes it worthwhile.
I will check it out. After all, if I can grind out Steve Raible’s Tales From The Seahawk’s Sideline then I can read something by Art Thiel. We should start a book club!
May 13th, 2008 at 1:50 pmIf they really wanted to please the older fans, they’d bring back Edgar and Jay and Joey friggin’ Cora. Alvin Davis is still alive; can he still walk?
Maybe we should split off from MLB and form a Seniors League.
Seriously, people: let go. We should be combing the globe for players born in the 1990s, not the 1960s.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:53 pmBringBackGriffey, the standard for left field is higher than right field. If Griffey is a league-average right fielder, he would be below-average in left.
All the noise about Griffey bringing in a lot more money is just that: noise. He’d bring in more money for a few weeks, the team would keep losing, and the novelty would wear off.
And honestly, I don’t care about fans who would come back for Griffey. Those are less than fair-weather fans, even: they’ll come out for a nostalgic gimmick rather than baseball. They’ll leave as soon as they’ve got their nostalgia kick, once they find out it isn’t the same as 1995.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:57 pmI mean, the Bring Back Lou crap drives me crazy, but at least Lou can still do the same job he used to.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:59 pmGriffey’s UZR was -20 last year — the worst RF in the league, second only to our guy Guillen in baseball. Adding that to league-worst Ichiro in CF (yes, I know) and second-worst Ibanez in left would not be quite as bad as 2007 but would be a million miles away from “best”.
I didn’t realize he’d sunk that low, either. DH it’s got to be.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:59 pm“it could happen” - Angels in the Outfield
just joshin
May 13th, 2008 at 2:00 pmOK- here’s what we do: Let Griffey Jr. float around the league from team to team for a few years looking for that elusive ring. Then in 2012, we bring the old man back and start him in left, next to our new wunderkind CF Trey Griffey. Then (still with me?) we activate Ken Griffey Sr, in one of those Minnie Minoso PR stunts. Father-Son-Grandson back-to-back-to back jacks! Awesome!
May 13th, 2008 at 2:02 pm118 - Griffey is a league average defensive RF. He would be one the best defensive LF.
Please tell me this is a joke
May 13th, 2008 at 2:06 pmOther statistics (PIZ) report radically different results for Ichiro (second-best, not third-worst), but they substantially agree on Griffey, Ibanez, and Guillen — stinko.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:07 pmAs for another defensive measure that says Griffey was horrible in RF:
http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/cat_probabilistic_model_of_range.php
“Mark Teahen did a much better job of adjusting to rightfield than Ken Griffey, Jr. Of course, Junior is old and slow, and with all the injuries might be better off as a DH in AL at this point.”
Again: just because you remember he was awesome back in the 1990’s doesn’t make him any good in the field now.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:07 pmExactly. Sellout the first game, nice crowds the rest of the week, then nothing. Net attendance gain: 50,000. Worth 16.8 mil?
May 13th, 2008 at 2:08 pm[ot]
May 13th, 2008 at 2:11 pmIt seems the anti-Griffey camp is intent on arguing what Griffey’s value in the field and at the plate would be. Are you sure that’s the argument the pro-Griffey crowd is concerned with?
May 13th, 2008 at 2:21 pmPECOTA has Griffey at +2 for 2007. Of course he was -16 in CF during 2006. So much for the validity of defensive metrics.
Griffey can outrun all but a couple of the M’s (ok that’s just sad). He still has plus arm strength for a right fielder.
Griffey does not suck as a defensive outfielder.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:23 pmBringBackGriffey, it’s impossible to argue with your pure unsupported faith.
irish, I’m also arguing that it wouldn’t be the huge financial boost that Griffey’s advocates are saying it would be. That’s a rationalization. They want him back for sentimental reasons, and some of them want to make a logical argument for it. There’s no logical argument to be made.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:31 pmre: those who believe bring in Griffey is good because of increased ticket/merchandise sales… this team has already had money leaking out of its collective ears for years. Money has never been an issue and the marginal impact of bringing in Griffey, aside from possibly higher attendance in the short term, simply isn’t that great.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:31 pmBP’s defensive metrics are worse than worthless.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:32 pmWe have a number of defensive metrics saying Griffey DOES suck as a defensive outfielder, and we also have a number of defensive metrics that say the Mariners are the worst defensive team in baseball (in converting balls in play into outs). Adding a 38 year old with gimpy hamstrings doesn’t help this problem.
By the way, Raul and Griffey have hit into about the same numbers of GIDPs the last couple of years, and Griffey’s stolen a grand total of 6 bases since 2005- LESS than Raul over the same time (who’s stolen 11). So, basically, there’s zero statistical evidence that Griffey’s anything more than what Raul is: a leadfooted DH who can’t hit RHP.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:33 pm[what? no]
May 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pmI’m sorry, that should read “can’t hit LHP”. Both Griffey and Raul are showing some serious platoon splits these days.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pmPECOTA has Griffey at +2 for 2007
Huh? What are you looking at? If you’re referring to BPro’s (or, actually Davenport’s) FRAA or FRAR it’s been discussed at length here how bad they are. For what it’s worth FRAA is at -5 already this year.
Griffey can outrun all but a couple of the M’s
Please attached documentation. Everytime I see him run hard he pulls a hammy.
Griffey does not suck as a defensive outfielder.
Wrong. Totally wrong by any measure. Griffey is deal last in the NL in RZR @ .815. We could throw fielding metrics at you all day but doubt you’d care.
And Elvis has left the building. I believe Irish has nailed the crux of the arguement. The ‘anti-Gri**fey’ crowd sites his recent performance as evidence to not trade for him. The ‘pro-Gri**ey’ crowd sites how he saved baseball in Seattle and what a fantastic player he was 10 years ago as their proof. What we have is a fundamental difference in evaluation. Some of us can seperate our love of Gri**ey, circa 1995 and others can’t.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:35 pmBringBackGriffey, we do enjoy the game for what it is. The difference between us is, you enjoy the game for what it was.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:35 pm… that is, ‘marginal positive impact’. There could also be a great negative impact, aside from the bloated salary (which BTW would undo a great deal of the positive monetary imact): his lack of range, injury risk and diminished skills.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:36 pmBecause we’re not stuck in 1997? Many of us would rather remember him as the great player he was and not watch him stumble around the outfield.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:36 pmYou guys suck all the fun out of baseball. Get out of your little dark rooms and enjoy the game for what it is.
And watching management who apparently, like you, thinks defensive skill is based on wishful thinking, ignoring objective data, plus mocking any thinking that isn’t straight out of The Book of 1950, DOESN’T suck the fun out of baseball?
News flash: winning baseball is fun. Management that isn’t stuck in the past trying to relive 1995 is fun, too.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:38 pm