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Game 47, Mariners at Tigers
Washburn vs Rogers, 4:05 pm.
Before the game, McLaren announced that Jamie Burke is now going to be the personal catcher for both Jarrod Washburn and Erik Bedard, meaning that Johjima and Burke will split the catching duties 60/40.
“You’ve got to look at it two ways,” McLaren said. “If a guy is having success with one guy, you’ve definitely got to really weigh that heavily. That doesn’t lie. We’ve got kind of that situation with Burke and Bedard. It’s been a good combination and so we’re going to stick with it for a while.”
In this paragraph, John McLaren reinforces that he doesn’t have any idea how statistical analysis works. He sums up about 34 logical fallacies in a few sentences. He demonstrates ignorance of all the research done on the relationship between a catcher and a pitcher’s performance (there’s almost none), his inability to understand that the “hot hand phenomenon” is a horrible way to make decisions, and his remarkable lack of leadership.
Jarrod Washburn sucks. He’s a replacement level starting pitcher, not much better than guys sitting in Triple-A riding buses from Toledo to Durham. Jarrod Washburn doesn’t like pitching to Kenji Johjima, who the team is committed to as their starting catcher through 2011. A real manager, one with some semblance of authority and a willingness to do whats best for his team’s record, would tell the replacement level starting pitcher to learn how to like throwing to Kenji or sit in the bullpen and not pitch.
No other team in baseball would let a replacement level starter dictate the benching of their starting catcher. Not one.
John McLaren doesn’t deserve to be fired because this team is 18-28 or because they’re losing ugly. He deserves to be fired because he’s massively unqualified for a job that requires both real leadership and an understanding of how baseball works. Those are his two jobs; motivate his players and put the best team on the field. He’s incapable of motivating grass to grow and has no idea what his players can and can’t do. He neither leads nor understands, and it’s only in a backwards organization like this one that this guy could have ever been hired in the first place.
Go M’s.
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interesting how people view catchers; from the Times blog comments:
“Why throw a few prospect and Sexson and get Rivera back as catcher. he had good targeting and was like a vacuum with stuff in the dirt. this move probably comes in the offseason when it is too late.”
Wake me up when this team actually is meaningful again.
I was going to make a possible suggestion to get Clement some major league AB’s. It is not worth typing out, we all know the M’s are not going to do something smart.
I hate the Angels as our rivals, but on their own I love watching them. Scioscia sure as hell wouldn’t put up with this kind of shit.
that was excellent
Hey Tom- I don’t know about you, but I always stare at the gnarly accident on the freeway.
How painful is that to watch that Adam Jones base clearing double kill the Yanks just a couple weeks after Mussina shut us down? I need a drink already just like it is a 8 pitch 1st inning for Rogers.
I am once again puzzled by Mariners management (signing a guy to an extension then paying him to sit on the bench) Maybe this isn’t a bad thing though. Catching platoons can work out best for everyone. This will keep both of our catchers fresh and when Burke has gotten significant playing time (in 2004 and 2007) he has posted respectable offensive numbers.
Exactly. Some people might look at this and not think it’s a big deal, but it’s probably the clearest indication I’ve seen so far that McLaren just doesn’t have any control over the team at this point.
Any situation in which Jarrod Frickin’ Washburn gets to ask for a personal catcher and not only doesn’t get laughed out of the manager’s office, but GETS WHAT HE WANTS, is beyond recovery.
No other team in baseball would let a replacement level starter dictate the benching of their starting catcher. Not one.
Word.
What is up with Brandon Inge in CF? That is some John McLaren shit right there, he is a top glove at 3rd base…
Well, Burke has caught Bedard SO many times.
I really hate this team sometimes.
This is why McLaren was always known as a “player’s coach”. His reverence of veterans is only a symptom of this. The term “replacement-level player” will never run through his brain.
There are many times when a leader that the players think is an SOB is really required.
The only good that can come from this is if Kenji becomes the scapegoat and gets run out of town.
Thank you, Dave.
The biggest difference between the major media press and the internet press isn’t access to the players, and it isn’t the standard of analysis (after all, the major media can catch up on that score any time they want to); it’s that you guys are able and willing to speak frankly and truthfully. About everybody.
Every time I read things like this, my insides get all twisted. No need repeating what has been said, but sheesh, letting Jarrod effing Washburn say he doesn’t want the starting catcher? Hell, he’s not even as good as Batista.
#12
I bet Kenji is pissed. He’s not a player’s coach for every player.
Wonder what Johjima thinks of this “player’s manager”.
well, maybe the one who thought he was a frontline starter worth a four-year, $38M deal …
I eagerly await what our area sportswriters will say about the leadership McLaren is displaying here.
Are you sure about the 60/40? According to Baker’s blog, Burke would be catching Bedard for the foreseeable future and Washburn when certain situations present themselves (like night game followed by day game). Maybe I read the quotes wrong in Baker’s blog.
I am all for Burke catching Bedard, but Washburn is a different story. Johjima caught Washburn the last two years , which makes it more ridiculous to suddenly change that particular battery this season. I agree with that. But I still view Bedard differently just based on how well Bedard has pitched with Burke this year. I think that combo is going well and it would be foolish to tamper with that now.
I was thinking the other day that if they’re going to be stupid and DH Vidro most of the time, hopefully McLaren will at least put Reed in LF when Washburn pitches. The thought of Ibanez tracking down all of the flyballs tonight in Comerica Park is just frightening. This is just silly.
To be clear, too, I’m not a big fan of the “personal catcher” thing in general.
I think that unless it’s a situation like catching a knuckleballer which requires a special skillset, it’s a bad idea to let one player dictate the playing time of others.
But Bedard is awesome, so you can at least make a case for letting him have his way; there is zero reason that Jarrod Washburn should be allowed to pull a stunt like this.
It’s even more indefensible to let him sabotage an offense that is ALREADY desperate for all the run production it can get.
In a week or two, he’ll be spouting off about how he’s not getting enough run support.
Cut him, and then he can dictate his catching preferences to a beer league softball team.
Dealing with petulant children (or adults who act like them) 101:
If you reward negative behavior by giving the child whatever it wants, the child will never learn that it’s behavior is problematic.
Washburn whines, McLaren caves, and so Washburn never learns that the real problem is how low on the totem pole of talent he really is.
What is so awful about Clement’s catching that this is even an issue? Can he not catch the ball? Throw the ball? Do they think he “calls a lousy game”? I apologize if this has been hashed out elsewhere and I missed it, but I’ve never been clear on what Clement’s defensive issues are. If the FO is so terrible at evaluating talent have they blown it with Clement too? Could all this snipping go away by sticking the kid behind the plate? Is he really that bad?
I’m not trying to throw Kenji under a bus (I don’t really think he’s the root of Washburn’s particular ailments), but I thought we had the catcher of the future in Clement. What am I missing?
When I saw the Line-up I thought to myself, “No way?!” Then I read what that McLaren said about personal catchers and made out a barley audible, “NO f*%#*!ng WAY!” The only reason my neighbors didn’t hear me was because a clenched jawed adult cussing into his hands, which are both cradling and keeping his head from exploding, mutes things quite well.
This guy has no business managing a troop of girl scouts selling cookies let alone a baseball team trying to win.
I don’t agree with everything out here, but I do with this post. McLaren has no testies. I guess it’s on with the charge of the light brigade.
Go Mariner Bats. (I never even wanted Ho-Ram to pitch poorly even though I knew it would prolong his inept career in the hometown uni. Here’s to Whitewash getting burned in the first. You’re a pathetic excuse for a pitcher Jarrod and obviously not much more of a person.)
It’s just unbelievable. My jaw pretty much hit the floor when I saw Baker’s post today. They now have no room on the roster for their #1 prospect because he’s blocked by the aging #1 catcher, who only plays 60% of the time because the pitchers don’t like working with him.
Seriously, how can they let it get this absurd?
Bravo! Yet another excellent article on USSM….
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I get the feeling Washburn is a “clubhouse lawyer”.
Honestly, I feel badly for McLaren. He seems like a decent guy who’s simply overmatched as a manager.
And the players seem to be taking advantage of the fact that he’s a nice guy.
dumb dumb dumb dumb dummmmmmmmmmmmb (Burke Bedard)
At this point they could release Johjima outright and it would make his contract extension only slightly less weird.
Let Washburn throw to Burke. When he gets lit up who will he throw under the bus?
I believe that the Mariners are giving Washburn enough rope to hang himself. Too bad its going to cost us a bunch of games until they realize hes a plug and get rid of him.
hey, girl scouts are doing better than he is.
I am dumbfounded with the dumbness I have found.
It’s not really likely but perhaps Ol’ Mac is being crazy like a fox. When Washburn blows up tonight, he can look at him and tell him he got the catcher he wanted and what’s his excuse now?
Like I said, not likely but it would be interesting if it was the case.
You’re either a REALLY good team or a REALLY bad team when your #9 hitter has the 4th highest batting everage on the active roster (not counting Reed who has just 2 AB’s). The fact he is 15 points higher than 5th and 39 higher than 6th is frightening.
I’m listening to James Brown. Now he was a good manager. If his band didn’t play well, watch out… He kept them on their toes.
I don’t believe in booing players who are playing badly but I think are really trying. The only reason I’d want to be at the park for a Washburn start would be to boo him.
I still don’t get Beltre then Lopez. Beltre should be our number 3.
It’s gotten to the point where if Washburn pitches well tonight, I’d think instead of proving that Washburn is right about pitching to Burke…but that it suggests that Washburn’s been tanking while throwing to Kenji…
…and the fact that I’m thinking this shows how far we’ve come from You Gotta Love These Guys.
I’m left hoping that Washburn is just as ineffective as ever…and that’s a bad place for a Mariners fan to be.
Washburn just rocked back and FIRED that 84 MPH fastball.
I’ll predict 4-0 at the end of the 1st.
The Detroit announcer just said Washburn isn’t getting run support, since 2005 just above 4. Umm… That’s about average for a Mariners starter I am going to say.
That’s the kind of strikeout a personal catcher gets you
What happens if Washbum continues to get pasted each and every outing? Will Jarrod call him out as well, since it’s the catcher’s fault he’s not throwing well?
I hope that Washburn just gets his ass handed to him today.
Hey, maybe it’s Johjima that makes Washburn replacement level! You eggheads ever think of that?
Single, Fly-Ball, Fly-Ball, K… That seems about right, except that neither of those flys went over the wall of course.
OOOh it’s that hot new prospect Jose Vidro!
“No other team in baseball would let a replacement level starter dictate the benching of their starting catcher. Not one.”
Aren’t many teams that would have given Washburn a 4 year almost $0 mil deal either, but hey … scrappy veteran-ness.
If a thousand monkeys typed on a thousand typewriters for a thousand years, they would eventually write the works of William Shakespeare. In the meantime, they content themselves with typing out Mariner lineup cards and making roster decisions.
Down to Tacoma with you, Jose!
I’m pretty sure it only takes 2 monkeys to do that.
Sorry, that should say $40 mil deal in the above post, but hey … being the scrappy veteran poster that I am, sometimes I need a personal typist to help me do my job right.
This is just another occurence of a pre-existing symptom. When McLaren is fired, it will be very important to point out that he really hasn’t done any better or worse then what he did since taking over in ‘07. McLaren has been consistent, and consistently terrible, and I guarantee certain observers will try and wriggle out of how absolutely the blogs nailed him so quickly.
Washburn is 25th among AL starters with a minimum of 40 IP in run support so far this season (there are 54 pitchers that make the list).
Batista is 13th, Silva 20th, Bedard is 35th, Hernandez is 52nd
Yeah this is one stupid deal.
Listening to a turd like Washburn is not a good sign for the organization. I almost understand the Bedard aspect though. He’s really got the Mariners bent over a barrel. They need to resign him to save face. It wouldn’t surprise me if the front office agreed to let Bedard ride a hover-board out to the mound if that’s what he wanted.
Down to Tacoma with you, Jose!
Psh. He gets 50 PAs. No more. No less.
[consider it done! You'll have to talk to Derek about the contract extension though]
See, that’s the kind of pitch-framing service you get with a personal catcher.
I’ve asked my employer for a personal catcher. They handed me a flyswatter.
Thats the kind of cajones I’m looking for. I’ll tell you what, whatever Dave and Derek are paying you to post here, I’ll triple it!
While I occasionally laugh at the Mariners’ ineptitude and do my damnedest to enjoy the comedy of this time, I can’t think of another game during which I actively rooted for the opposing team. Until now. I want to see Washburn so completely shellacked that the M’s have little choice but to convert him into a locker room chifforobe.
Go, Tigers.
At times–and far more often that I’d like–rooting for this team with USSM’s counterpoint feels a lot like being strapped into a chair with your eyeballs stapled open being forced to watch graphic vehicular homicide while being told how drinking and driving is bad practice.
That would have been a triple if Johjima was catching.
If JMHawkins gets a personal moderator I want one too. I’m not a replacement level commenter because of me; it’s because of the moderator.
Dude, Renteria. You’re supposed to hit him.
The M’s as a team have not hit over a .700 OPS in a game with a lefty starting since… Cliff Lee, April 30th!
Ibet if you had a gun on Washburn he just ducked faster than his fastball.
With regards to the “hot hand phenomenon”, I’d like to direct you to: http://www.economics.pomona.edu/GarySmith/bowling/bowling.html
Now, that’s not directly applicable, but entirely ruling out the statistical significance of the “hot hand phenomenon” is, in itself, overgeneralizing — it COULD be a good way to make decision, given the right context and the right data supporting your decision.
I imagine McLaren’s brain works something like that.
Huh. Burke just gave up two runs.
*sigh*
That was totally Jaime’s fault.
Burke needs to play better.
Hey, if the call Clement back up, they could have a personal catcher for every starter.
Bedard gets Burke
Felix gets Johjima
Silva gets Clement
Batista gets Bloomquist (gotta get Willie’s bat in the lineup more, y’know)
Washburn gets Ibanez (used to be an emergency catcher, and hey, Washburn’s a flyball pitchers, so good to get a faster LF out there…).
Question: if Washburn gets chased before the third inning, does Burke stay in the game?
I *heart* Brandon Inge.
Dammit Burke!
In slo-mo that ball wiggled around in Washburn’s glove like a cat in a gunny sack. Some velocity.
I figured that Wash trumps Johjima because he’s not a foreigner.
See, did everyone hear Burke yell CATCH IT right on time. No language problem so no dead pitcher. Mac’s a genius.
It’s fungo time already…
Too bad that didn’t hit Washburn in the skull.
So, after Sabean is fired from San Francisco, do you think he gets the first interview with the Mariners or do they bypass the interview process altogether and hire him on the spot?
Seattle Mariners baseball, ladies and gents. Just when you think things can’t get any worse, they do!
Woot! I predict Yuni well have more homeruns by the end of the season than walks.
Won’t Mclaren pull Burke first, since it’s probably his fault?
Was that run scoring double to left a legitimate double, or a Raul induced double?
Yeah, but what about Bedard? He’s a foreigner too. Or did we annex Canada already? (maybe that’s what Obama meant about visiting 57 states…)
Don’t teams have to at least interview a minority candidate? Perhaps this means Kim Hg at least gets a courtesy interview.
Think of poor relievers, who don’t get to pick who to throw to. No wonder they can’t get out of the bull pen to start.
Don’t teams have to at least interview a minority candidate? Perhaps this means Kim Ng at least gets a courtesy interview.
I’m going to cry if Beltre is asked to bunt
Bah, Kim Ng. Not Hg. My bad, sorry.
Kim Ng = <3
I can’t wit to see McLaren go to mound and bring in a Relief Catcher.
That’s three balls RIGHT back up the middle. Not a good sign.
Through 3 innings, Kenny Rogers has thrown 41 pitches.
Through 2 innings, Jarrod Washbum has thrown 39 pitches.
Those scrappy veterans…
You know why Washburn’s throwing so many pitches?
Because he enjoys pitching to Burke just that much.
Every single one of those pitches is sealed with a kiss.
Best comment of the thread thus far.
That’s how this site keeps me a Mariner fan.
If Kenji was catching it would be 38-1 by now.
Two Run Lead = Game Over
Well, I wonder if this is the end of the grand ‘Jarrod rulezzz the clubhouse’ experiment.
Burke needs to position Beltre better than that.
Goddammit Burke.
Well, we’ve seen him try Suck Pitch #1, Suck Pitch #2, and Suck Pitch #3. Perhaps he should try his supersecret Suck Pitch #4 that he only busts out when the other team is teeing off on the first pitch they see?
I’m sure pleased with our outfield defense tonight.
I don’t say this lightly, but you deserve it, Jerrod, you really do.
Jarrod Washburn: Not good.
Did he learn the supersecret suck pitch #4 from Batista?
Watching the little yellow dots go in circles on GameCast has never made me quite so happy.
After having spent a decade or so with Joe Torre, I wonder what Mel thinks of McClaren. I’m firmly convinced Mac isn’t qualified to manage a little league team.
I was in the bathroom thinking, “At least he’s not having one of those innings where he gives up a dozen runs.” Came out to find the bases loaded and nobody out. Thank god they got Kenji out of there or he would have screwed up this game.
Washburn shouldn’t be playing the game of baseball.
RRS! Of course! Way to mix it up, McLaren!
Jesus.
You suck, Jerrod. You suck so much.
I just said “Lord, let him hit a grand slam.”
Thank you. Thank you.
You suck too, Raul.
I can’t watch this. In fact, I really don’t want to watch this team until someone in the F.O. demonstrates that they give a damn.
Call up Clement again. Burke and Johjima are BOTH affecting Washburn’s pitches…
I don’t root against my team, but if I ever wanted a guy for my team to get creamed tonight, it was Jarrod.
Maybe he can have Clement catch him on his next start… in Tacoma.
And yeah, these last two games plus the aimless milling around the roster are pretty much signing Mac’s death warrant (and probably Bavasi’s). I don’t think it’s a matter of “if” any more, but “when”. The schedule going forward into June looks a lot worse than what it’s been so far, and if Texas, Baltimore and Detroit are cleaning your clock regularly, Boston, New York and Los Angeles should finish the job.
I’m not pretending to know what goes in another persons head but I think I can take comfort knowing Kenji is laughing harder than anyone. Or maybe he’s like me humming some Lennon right about now.
GO M’S!
Have to say, can’t remember ever being so pleased that my team was blown out early.
On the good side, at least Raul’s uh, defense, didn’t lose the game tonight.
It is about time we realize how much Jamie Burke sucks at doing everything. He called a fastball and they hit it hard, calls a curve ball hit it hard. Than he made Adrian Beltre miss a ball hit by Cabrera, and than he made Raul Ibanez a horrible outfielder on a Brandon Inge “triple”. Jamie Burke is the reason we suck.
At least Burke’s trying to make up for his miserable performance tonight.
I’d like to suggest two topics for new threads in the not-too-distant future (apologies if they’ve been done recently):
1) Where do good general managers come from? It is a weird job, isn’t it? There’s no graduate school for them. There’s no standard pipeline that I know of–you don’t get promoted because you were a hell of a general manager at Triple A. Is there any history or database on how or why GM’s become successful? To put it another way, where should we go from here?
2) What metrics are there for judging when it’s ‘too soon’ to bring someone up from the minors? The gut reaction at this point is to get rid of everyone who can’t help the next few years and let young guys play. But how do we determine whether playing at the major league level is detrimental to their long term development?
So, in our sorry history, who was our best general manager?
A little while on the radio side, Rizzy mentioned that “the Tigers, we were told, were having problems offensively”.
That may still be the case against most other clubs, Rick — after all, one of the teams in the Queen Anne Little League could put up bunches of runs on Washout.
The Ibanez flub/Grand Slam was the first time I’ve seen the server on this website stall since the Adam Jones trade went through. I couldn’t get through to post, but if I had, it would have been something extremely clever, timely, and hilarious.
126 - gotta be pat g.
126- Wasn’t there some kid back in the late 90’s who got to be GM for the day. I heard he did a pretty good job.
A couple of runs here and we can start hearing the “this team has no quit in them” mantra.
126: My vote goes to Pat Gillick. Though he had flaws as well, at least we were almost great under him.
Gillick for sure; he was GM from 2000-2003 and we had 4 winning seasons, 2 playoffs, and a historically good regular season. Woodward (1988-99), believe it or not, is probably second. He was derided for much of his term, but we first became a good team while he was GM.
I want to see Washburn so completely shellacked that the M’s have little choice but to convert him into a locker room chifforobe.
That worked out extremely well. And it’s great news! Washburn is now capable of something he wasn’t remotely qualified for before: he’s now fit to hold Kenji’s jock.
That’s what happens with prospects like Vidro. You cant expect too much out of him.
Our “professional hitter” just weakly fouled off an 84 MPH fastball right down the middle, then popped out on the same pitch ro Right field.
fan - frickin- tastic
I have never been so happy that I can’t get my gameday up and running…
this team has me so beaten down that I couldn’t even be pissed when the 7 runs went up on the board as I walked home. All I could do was say nyah nyah nyah.
Or the adult equivalent.
While “The Gambler” isn’t exactly making his case for the HOF with this performance, he’s been comparatively brilliant next to the dung heap that was Washout tonight.
133: For as much as we bag on Woody to this day, I’d take him back in a heartbeat over Bavasi.
Second day in a row that I left work when the game started, and it was over by the time I got home 40 minutes later. And I’m not talking about barely over, but OVER!
The new GM will have his work cut out for him. This is a seriously bad team.
This team has no quit in them!
Ahh…thank you Richie for another one of your trademarked irrelevant home runs.
Pony dung?
so, does Mac tell himself that the Mariner offense & Washburn’s outing were bad because of the HP umpire, because once he went out to hollar at Andy Fletcher, RRS has pitched well and Rogers fell apart?
Naw, I think Burke changed his approach and decided to use his awesome powers to make the opposing pitcher do badly.
You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em…
Though in Washout’s case, he should’ve folded BEFORE taking the mound.
Is it too early to send this Vidro guy to the minors?
He’s just clearly not working out.
Gillick destroyed the farm system. Woody got lucky in the draft (Edgar, Griffey, A-Rod). Of course, it’s easier to get lucky in the draft if you finish last or next to last in the league every year.
This may sound crazy, I know, but I’d like to have a SMART guy in the job.
Oh I wish I were a Tampa Bay Rays fan
That is what I’d truly like to be
For if I was a Tampa Bay Rays fan
My team would not be so crappy
oh, crap.
it’ll be because Wash hasn’t pitched since his relief stint a week ago.
Steve T: That sums up my thoughts exactly. Plus - it isn’t that hard to choose well in the draft with the number one overall pick when a Griffey or A-Rod are available.
Oh boy…thrills and chills…it’s Baek time now, baby!
True — plus you’d always be able to walk up to box office on game day and get a cheap ticket.
That was a good call….the ball just has to go over the bag (any part of the bag). It does not have ot hit in fair territory as long as it is not “on the fly”.
You gotta love wikipedia at times…
“The Angels, however, were not interested in making such an expensive commitment to a shitty pitcher like Washburn.”
Actually, a SMART GM could do pretty well with this team.
Of course, Armstrong and Lincoln are not likely to pick a smart GM; they’ll pick a traditionally minded GM….
Is it possible to stick Wash out in the BP for mop-up jobs in blowouts only and let Dickey take his spot in the rotation?
We have a smart GM. We need a GM who understands the value of both traditional scouting and statistical analysis, and knows how to use both to their greatest effect. If we had one, we would be on the short list of teams in contention almost every year along with NY, Atlanta, and Boston.
152. Baloney. If picking with the #1 is so easy, then whatever happened to Brian Bullington, Paul Wilson, Matt Anderson, Brien Taylor, Kris Benson, Ben McDonald, and other #1 picks?
I’m going to back up and read the thread, but I just now turned on the game.
I have never gotten so much satisfaction out of seeing the Ms’ starting pitcher give up nine runs.
How do you like your new catcher, moron(s)?
This box score was the best laugh I’ve had this week. Perfect. I need a cigar.
don: Read what I said more carefully, since I included a condition. Picking with the #1 is easy when a Griffey or A-Rod is available.
162: Or when their last name is “Upton”
So Silva gets lit up yesterday and Baek throws 35 pitches, followed by Lowe with 16 and RRS with 16.
Tonight, Washburn gets lit up and RRS throws 35 pitches and Baek has 16 so far. Think we’ll see Lowe next?
Wonder if Dickey is on the airplane yet.
156: OMG, ya just gotta love the “objectivity” of that particular Wiki-bio!
162- Or when its Josh Hamilton like 8 years later.
Surely you guys know who’d take Bavasi’s place if Bavasi is shown the door: Yes, Chuck Armstrong himself, volunteering to serve as interim GM while the organization does a head hunt for a permanent replacement.
Then, after much study, they’ll decide that Chuckie is doing a fine job (evaluated by who else, Chuck Armstrong himself and his good buddy Howard Lincoln) and that he gets the job. And of course continues to serve as club President.
If it’s outlandishly stupid or illogical, our current front office will think of it.
I listen to Rizzs call a game, and it’s as though he watches the game surrounded by an open USA Today, a copy of the opposing teams media guide and “The Golden Book of Baseball History” …
Karen:
For a moment I forgot that I was numb and I felt terrified by your prophecy of an Armstrong ascension to GM. Then I just felt ironic detachment again.
pygmalion, I’m just saying that the M’s showed good baseball acumen by selecting Griffey & Rodriguez with the #1. It’s not always that way. In 1997, for example, the Tigers selected Matt Anderson with the #1. The next 2 picks were JD Drew and Troy Glaus. Vernon Wells was selected 5, Lance Berkman was #16.
In 1991, the Yankees made Brien Taylor the #1 pick. Manny Ramirez was picked that year at #13! 12 teams had the chance to pick up a future HOF player, but passed and selected instead illustrious players such as Mike Kelly, David McCarty, & Shawn Estes.
My point is that the GM at the time deserves credit for recognizing that Griffey & Rodriguez were the best in their class, because plenty of GM’s have had similar chances and not made the correct choice.
It’s all 20-20 hindsight anyway.
Well, for one thing, most of their data is from frame to frame, not day to day. Who is saying players don’t have good nights and bad nights?
Second… it’s bowling. There is almost no similarity between baseball and bowling. For one thing, only one of them is an actual sport.
The thing that’s annoying about this team is that it is EXACTLY like an early eighties team, only with a zillion times the payroll. I used to look at those teams and think “there’s something…DIFFERENT…about our players compared to theirs; they’re…somehow…not as good”. I get that same feeling now. Most teams, even other bad teams, have some guys who just aren’t good enough for the job, but when you have a Vidro out there, or a Cairo, it’s like you’re not trying.
I still like my analogy of the guy with the hot car, a Mercedes, who insists on driving it with the mini-spare on one of the wheels.
Wow, Baek coming out for the 3rd inning. I guess he and RRS are the sacrificial lambs of this staff.
However, no substitutions on offense yet, so I guess McLaren has learned his lesson from last night and is leaving the proven veteran hitters in. It probably crossed his mind that we would have caught the Tigers yesterday if he hadn’t pulled the first-string.
I don’t think there’s a GM on earth who wouldn’t have taken Griffey or A-Rod.
Burke strikes again. That’s 2 hits he’s allowed since Washburn was yanked.
I wondered this, too. But why do it publicly if that was your goal? You wouldn’t need to make it official.
By making it official, you’ve just insulted Johjima. The organization insulted Johjima. Previously it was just players.
The owners seem fond of Johjima… any chance Mac gets a really uncomfortable phone call tomorrow?
What Tao Lin said about the Mariners in The Stranger a few weeks back seems to fit this team:
When I watched baseball as a child, I always felt strange when I saw the Seattle Mariners on TV. I wasn’t sure then why I felt strange, but now I think I know. I think it’s just that the blue uniforms they used to have made it seem like they were “merely screwing around.” The blue uniforms, in combination with being called the Mariners, made me feel strongly that they actually wanted to be playing Marco Polo in a swimming pool but were forced into professional baseball and so wore blue uniforms to “continue the dream” of “screwing around” in a swimming pool for five hours every day with no responsibilities.
Except for one thing — throwing strikes is a good thing in both.
Don: Fair enough, but my memory of those drafts (such as it is, which isn’t great) is that it was pretty obvious to everyone who the best player was. I could be wrong about that, but my point is that there isn’t a lot of merit in choosing the guy that almost everyone agrees is the best. If I’m wrong about this consensus, then maybe I’ve underrated Woody’s drafting ability.
I know what it was tonight…it was that darned Cascadian accent of Burke’s that Wash was having trouble understanding.
Yeah, that must’ve been it.
I’m watching on Gamecast, I know Yuni’s up, and I saw a three ball count. Only then did I remember that I had switched games. Silly me, Yuni never sees that many pitches.
What is that? Seven walks in the last seven games for Ichiro?
Only thing that could make this loss sweeter would be a walk off Kenji PH homerun to win it giving Baek the W and Washburn a redder ass.
I wonder who the lucky SOB is gonna be who inherits this steaming pile of crap from McLaren. They may have to smuggle somebody out of Cuba in order to find a guy willing to take the job.
Hey, your memory is probably better than mine. I wasn’t a big Woody fan either, but unfortunately, I think he was the second-best GM in our history. I mean, look at the competition: Lou Gorman, Dan O’Brien, Hal Keller, Dick Balderson, and Bill Bavasi. Hell, Bavasi is probably the closest thing Woodward has to competition for 2nd place behind Gillick.
Bavasi has done a nice job with the farm system. However, he is an abysmal trader and spotty with free agents. Between here and Anaheim, he has been a GM for 11 seasons without once reaching the playoffs. The good news is that the Angels became real contenders after he was replaced by Stoneman. Let’s hope the pattern repeats itself here.
Read Thiel’s Out of Left Field. The M’s almost didn’t draft Griffey.
Karen: Since you’re in the prophesying business, is there any chance that after Armstrong and Lincoln make Armstrong the GM, they hire on Bloomquist as player-manager?
Griffey was drafted in ‘87, and Woodward wasn’t GM until ‘89, so I don’t see how Woody can take credit for Griffey.
I think I see vultures overhead….
Don: Sadly, I think that Woody was our best GM ever.
Soooo…with that fine effort, we now drop to 18-29 on the season — which, ironically, was Jarrod Washburn’s record in his first two seasons here.
Sort of fitting, I guess.
coasty141 said, partly: I almost understand the Bedard aspect though. He’s really got the Mariners bent over a barrel. They need to resign him to save face.
The situation with the organization right now being what it is, Bedard would have to be insane to sign on with the M’s past his current contract.
Not only that, if I’m (hopefully) wrong about Chuckie Armstrong wearing 2 hats, and the M’s actually do fire Bavasi and try to find a competent GM outside the organization, what Smart GM would sign up with the M’s without some kind of assurance that the beancounters/stockholders wouldn’t interfere with “baseball decisions”?
pygmalion: you might be right. It’s a tough job, really. I’m sure that Beane, Epstein, Schurholz, etc, have heard people calling for their heads.
Objectively speaking, if an ardent fan can really be objective, the Bavasi plan has failed and it’s simply time to make a change. It may end up being a change for the better, or one for the worse. But the status quo is simply unacceptable, and the bottom line will reflect that. The men in charge really have no choice but to make a change, and soon.
I have Sabean in the New Mariners GM deadpool. It seems inevitable somehow.
The M’s were 11-10 after the April 22 game. So, in the last month, the team is 7-19. And, we’re getting pummelled by a last place team.
And, tomorrow morning we get to see Batista start. Since Baek has thrown 35+ pitches two days in a row and RRS has thrown 50 pitches in Detroit, Batista is probably going to be left out there to absorb the punishment.
Then it’s off to NY.
Yeah, it’s a tough job. Everybody makes mistakes.
But Billy Beane never started Miguel Cairo at first base for a week. He never looked at Jose Vidro and said “OK, DH is settled, at least”.
There’s a difference between making a mistake and not having a clue.
Nostradamus Karen sez no chance, pygmalion. They’re holding that position open for Junior.
All right, Mariners nation….what is your over/under for the number of wins the 2008 Mariners will get?
The chances of Armstrong replacing Bavasi with someone smarter than Bavasi are nil. Richie will hit 70 home runs first.
Steve, thanks for the laugh. When you make a point like that, I’m totally defenseless!
For your entertainment pleasure, this quote from the 2008 Media Guide, Bavasi’s bio:
“Bill and his staff had another busy, and productive off-season. The added one of the top available free agent pitchers (Carlos Silva), as well as a veteran outfielder (Brad Wilkerson) and bench help (Miguel Cairo).
McLaren looked, literally, as if he was on the verge of tears in the post-game.
I feel sorry for him, but the sad fact is that he has a bad team, AND it’s underperforming.
After a year McLaren is still digging hard, looking for that pony and not finding one. No wonder he looks to be nearly in tears.
OMG, just channel-surfed over to KJR a minute ago and heard Elise Woodward ranting and raving about how bad this team is playing — and how useless she thinks Bavasi is!
Did you just hear the Washburn interview on Fox? He only threw one bad pitch, to Thames. The other hits he says he was throwing good pitches, hitting his spots, and the Tigers were hitting them.
What is “playing Marco Polo in a swimming pool” supposed to mean?
I heard Elise also. She is on fire.
Washburn was perplexed post-game — according to him he was pitching well and hitting his spots. Maybe that one home run ball was a “little” fat….
If you could bottle self-esteem some of these guys would have trucks following them around to pick up the product.
206: Sheez, he’s a legend in his own mind, isn’t he?
Well, at least Washburn made himself accountable by giving an interview. Now we know he didn’t actually suck.
I was so stunned by Washburn’s comments I completely missed 206.
It’s a game you play in a swimming pool.
Now, some moron called Elise suggesting that they “tear down Safeco Field and build a state-of-the-art basketball arena” to keep the Sonics here.
Yikes…they’re coming out of the woodwork these days, eh? >:(
Thanks!
Washburn is an 18 game winner with both playoff and world series experience. You can’t get any further from replacement level than that……Jarrod is PROVEN.
Yeah, and after Wash got that WS ring, he should’ve been paraphrasing Lou Gehrig — since he truly was “the luckiest man on the face of the earth.”
that wasn’t the GM, though — the baseball people had to fight George Argyros who wanted them to draft pitcher Mike Harkey.
they’re a good-hitting team, you know. and they had that inspiring ‘accountability’ lecture from Leyland to spur them onto greater heights.
You guys are too much. I wouldn’t let my kids get away with that. It would be hysterical if a major league pitcher actually said stuff like that. . .
Someone just please BLOW THE WHOLE THING UP!!!!
It’s time for heads to roll.
NOW.
Edgar was drafted in 1982, also before Woody’s time. Woody did do the Moyer trade, which was tremendous, and both sides of the Randy Johnson saga (it will be ten years since the M’s were certain Randy was going to have back trouble; they were right!!), which both got us value. His worse trades will need no introduction.
And he traded Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps. While with the Yankees.
Yep…like the guys from Del Amitri once said: “C’mon baby, let’s KISS THIS THING GOODBYE!”
Prompting my favorite line from Seinfeld: “Why the hell’d you trade Jay Buhner?!”
The Buhner/Phelps trade was probably why the M’s hired him….out of gratitude!
Actually, Phelps was a hell of a power hitter. I can see why someone would have wanted him aiming at the short right field porch in Yankee Stadium.
But, it didn’t work out for them, did it?
225: Not really, no…and the sad thing about having both Phelps and Jim Presley around at the same time is that it wound up keeping Edgar down in the minors longer than he should have been. I know it’s hindsight, but I’ll bet ‘Gar would’ve finished in the neighborhood of 3k hits if not for those lost seasons.
226: The M’s had gotten rid of all their good young (and I might mention mainly black) players over the years: Ruppert Jones, Dave Henderson, Phil Bradley. But they developed a fetish for Jim Presley, whom they could easily have traded two years before Edgar came up for good. There is always a market for a power-hitting third baseman. And Edgar had only batted .372 in his cup of coffee in 1987, so why he was sent down to win another PCL batting title was beyond me.
147: That’s called folding pre-flop.
Used to be, I’d read the sports pages for comments/observations on this team from the night before. Now, I come here to get honest, objective news about this train wreck of a MLB team. This morning’s blast about Washburn insisting on his personal catcher was the final straw. Couldn’t agree more with comments from today. While signing Kenji for 3yrs at his age and level of production was a stupid move, to bench him half the time now and thus provide a wall for Clement to return. You truly have to wonder which inmates in the asylum are running things today. Or, do they take turns? McLaren has zero nads to let any player dictate to him, Washburn or otherwise. It should be painfully obvious to anyone (although not noted in the PI or anywhere else I could find)that he has lost dynamic control of his troops. He must go, in an effort to retain some of the new manager’s respect level for this club. If not, these troops will be dictating other “terms” to McLaren in the near future.