In Better News
Dave · May 22, 2008 at 12:57 pm · Filed Under Mariners
I’m back on KJR tomorrow at 3:35 pm – Groz is filling in for the day, so they’re pulling me back out to issue a post mortem on this horrible, awful team.
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Hope you are talking about John McLaren’s dismissal at least.
Dave Cameron and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Team.
McLaren won’t be fired yet, they need to at least finish out the road trip.
This is good. People need to hear the truth about this club. Not that they’re bad — everybody can see that. But WHY they’re bad. I hope you get time to talk about our terrible, terrible defense.
Please mention the suck pitch.
I wonder if they can play a quiet loop of “Taps” while you’re on?
Firing McClaren right now would be worse than pointless. Far better to wait until after the draft, when we can fire Bavasi and let the new GM pick his own manager.
#7: Why? The draft is only a few weeks away. Go right ahead and fire Mac.
Start tearing this thing down.
MLB teams fire managers during home stands – usually at the end of them. He isn’t going to be fired immediately.
#9: Yeah, but you forget this isn’t a MLB team right now.
I couldn’t care less if Mac is fired this season. Bavasi is all I care about. Might as well let Mac finish out the season, since the new GM probably wouldn’t hire his guy until the off-season. If he can get his guy before then, then go ahead.
Does firing Bavasi immediately after the draft make any more sense than firing him before? He is supposed to sign the kids he is drafting. If the person who just drafted you suddenly was fired before you signed, would you really have any incentive to sign with the club, seeing that dysfunction.
I am of the crowd that Bavasi and Mac should be fired but I think they should wait until Oct. 3.
Also, go Reed in LF!
I’m just so glad we got rid of such dead weight like Norton and Wilkerson. Who needs people that take more than one pitch every other at bat!!! We can’t have none of that on this here team!
That’s why God invented interim managers.
You want Bavasi to be around to make more trades?
I’m going to move to Australia.
3:35 our time? that would be during Groz with Gas–
Maybe we could limit his duties to not talking to any other GM’s.
17- Or signing aging catchers to extensions…oops…
Please give Washburn both barrels. At least Batista and Silva suck in relative silence.
Considering this team still has 60 home games left, upper management will be forced to do something.
And to my way of thinking, this team is far worse than those bad M’s teams of the 80s and earrly 90s. At least we expected them to lose.
Not that I expected this team to be great, but I did expect a team that at least had professional pride. I know, I know, this team just isn’t that good to begin with. Fine, I understand that stuff. And I also understand Bill Bavasi was misguided when he believed Bedard was the missing piece to the puzzle.
As fans, though, we have a right to expect a team that competes hard.
I know there is a lot of people who think “chemistry” is an ambiguous overrated factor, but even they must concede something is deeply flawed with this team.
I have no problem believing both that chemistry has almost no relevance to the problems of this team, and that many things are deeply flawed with the team.
Horrible talent evaluation?
They can’t stop losing?
Niacin deficiency.
I don’t see the Mariners firing McLaren before the end of the season. Howard and Chuck or any of their GMs have shown no tendencies towards considering a midseason change in management.
Although I am on the verge of covering my eyes Cowardly Lion style and chanting “I do believe in chemistry, I do believe in chemistry, I do I do I do believe in chemistry….”
Um. You might want to restate this into something closer to what you meant to say, cuz there was plenty of people who thought there were DEEP flaws in this team in spring training, and don’t think much of “chemistry.”
(Not to mention that being bad leads to losing leads to bad juju in the clubhouse).
If only we’d had a detailed discussion about chemistry recently…
Hah! If they actually do a “this season’s over” on that show, then it’ll be a major blow to the team’s defenses of it being “early”, etc. If it wakes the fans up to the obvious and embarrasses the front office, it’ll be time well spent.
Go for it Dave. Have Groz play you in with the Undertaker’s theme from the WWE. Go full harpsichord and bells sounding. Give this season a 21 gun salute.
I would find it to be truly epic if you really tore this shit apart in public. Hell, who knows when you’ll be on the radio next. Go nuts!
Yeah, I don’t doubt that there’s bad chemistry now. If I were Washburn or Bedard, I’d keep my nose tuned for that faint, bitter smell of almonds. And I sure hope Bavasi is looking into local supplies of charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter.
I understand that lack of talent and a poorly constructed team are the main reasons the Mariners are lousy, but don’t you guys think that it’s even more than that?
I’m not being a wise-guy and perhaps I’m wrong, but I seriously think this team is going through the motions.
That said, I really enjoy the comments and articles on this site. It’s like therapy, which is sorely needed considering the status of the team.
I also apppreciate that people on USSM back up their statements with facts. I, like many others, have a tendency to shoot from the hip (mainly from frustration) and you people are always quick to set me straight.
I just wish Bavasi and everyone else at M’s headquarters would read the info on this site….
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine Mariners to tiny bits, in thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu…
McLaren will probably be fired, but he’ll be fired for the wrong reasons. He’ll be fired as a scapegoat for this season when in reality he should be fired because he is incompetent at his job. I don’t know what Dave can say about that, other than shrug.
fermorules, yeah, maybe they are just going through the motions. Some of them, anyway. I think that’s hard for fans to accurately detect, though, and they often see it where it isn’t (for example, non-demonstrative players or managers will get accused of not caring when the team is losing). So I prefer not to speculate about it unless it’s really unexplainable by anything else. It’s too easy for people to blame character issues, fond as we are of a good (or bad) story.
Cause of death: Incompetence.
They are losing because the players aren’t very good. Not because they lack chemistry.
We need three starting pitchers, two corner outfielders, a DH, a 1B, a 2B, a SS and a bench.
The Mariners suck.
I thought we decided on alchemy? Seems more fitting somehow. Although there ain’t anything resembling even mercury on this team. I had a “I can’t believe he’s our BEST option in fight field” moment yesterday when I saw Wlad pop-out to second with men on base. Thankfully the infield fly rule didn’t tax our base-running decision making
Have to admit I like the “…runners can advance at their own peril…” portion of the rule. I envision ninjas and throwing stars in the infield.
“McLaren will probably be fired, but he’ll be fired for the wrong reasons. He’ll be fired as a scapegoat for this season when in reality he should be fired because he is incompetent at his job. I don’t know what Dave can say about that, other than shrug.”
It might be helpful to mention that it isn’t reasonable to expect the team to do a 180 just because McLaren gets fired … it might also be helpful to bring up that upper mgmt has been quoted as saying that McLaren is doing a heckuva job this year, so they’re as culpable as anyone for this gawd-awful trainwreck of a team.
It isn’t Mac’s fault…he’s not very good, but he didn’t put this team together…you give the best chef in the world rotten ingredients, and they won’t be able to make their dish taste good…
The dreaded vote of confidence is anything but:
http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/15/heres-hoping/The Boston Medical Group ad is amazingly obnoxious, but kind of funny given the M’s current performance problems.
We NEED to start to REPEAT THIS and SAY it OFTEN…
Armstrong and Lincoln are tied to Bavasi…If ONE goes, THEY ALL SHOULD GO!!!
I do not care when, though, I do not want any trading of M’s prospects before then.
How bout somebody doing a nifty analysis of the job bavasi has done during his tenure. With all the numbers folks on this site, i’m sure someone could come up with the top 5 criteria of an effective GM, then break it down with the the performance of the players he’s aquired/let go.
Someone may have already done this, but it seems to me that a site that prides itself on rational assesment would do well to hold the same standard for our evaluation of bavasi. That being said, McClaren’s sample size is too small, give him a chance. Bavasi, he’s got plenty of data. Run the numbers and let’s see how bad it is.
Before firing Mac they have to sign him to a three year extension the month before and give him the “vote of confidence” and the guarenteed millions in which we’ll just end up eating. Thats the Mariner way!
btw, I was listening to KJR there when I was talking about the thing.
We’ve talked a ton about the job Bavasi’s done during his tenure.
the Boston Medical Group seem to be very popular at KJR.
It’s true that a better manager would still have to get lucky to win with this team. It’s also true that McLaren is an awful manager.
Oh, it’s not that bad. We HAVE a DH; he played there today. Ibanez. We do need some corner OF, but those guys are a dime a dozen. We could get away with just playing Reed in one of them, even though he can’t really hit for much; at least he can catch some balls. Yes, we need a 1B, but we don’t need Lou Gehrig, just, you know, fairly decent. Bench players likewise — we don’t need a row of all-stars. 2B I can live with; if Lopez had a defender on either side of him he wouldn’t suck. And we don’t need three SP, because you don’t need five stud starters to win. Our starting pitching, despite the Motown Meltdown, ain’t that bad. I would like to punish Washburn for his mouth, and his meatballs, but it’s not a crisis.
Shortstop’s the only really hard one I see. I don’t think Yuni is the answer to any questions I have.
This team sucks, but they don’t suck as bad as they’ve been playing.
The problem is, when they start to play better, as they inevitably will, it will be attributed to “turning things around” when it’s really “regression to the mean”. What’s wrong with the Mariners is a failure of attribution caused by a failure of understanding. Get a management team that understands the difference between a good player and a Miguel Cairo, and we’re only a few guys away from being decent again.
48- Totally agree…Mac sucks, but the players suck even more…
I know we’ve talked a ton, but has anyone put it all together in one place so that it can be easily communicated on the radio, in the papers, etc?
I understand that lack of talent and a poorly constructed team are the main reasons the Mariners are lousy, but don’t you guys think that it’s even more than that?
No, I don’t. Talentlessness trumps desire, chemistry, pride, or any other psychological hokem you want to invoke. This is a badly-assembled team of mostly overpaid, mostly mediocre talents who aren’t being used in ways that compensate for their weaknesses or maximize their abilities. You don’t need to look any farther than that.
Look, you’ll find more “pride” and “will to win” and “chemistry” on your average Special Olympics team than you will find almost anywhere else, but if you run them out against a professional sports team you think they’d have a chance? This is your Seattle Mariners, the Special Olympics of baseball.
I understand that lack of talent and a poorly constructed team are the main reasons the Mariners are lousy, but don’t you guys think that it’s even more than that?
Yeah, it’s bad luck. The 2008 Mariners are 18-30 after 48 games. The 2004 Mariners after 48 games were also 18-30. I don’t think the 2008 Mariners are a 61-101 “true talent” team (which is what their current record projects out to). It’s very obvious that’s the case when you look at the 2008 roster compared to 2004.
That being said, it would appear that they weren’t really a 88-74 “true talent” team in 2007, and that 79-83 (their Pythag record) was about right, and the moves they made (adding Bedard, dropping Jones and Guillen, and ignoring any defensive issues, the black hole at 1B, or the possibilities that Vidro wouldn’t be able to repeat a fluky 2007, or that Kenji’s odometer at C would roll over and void the warranty, or that injuries could hurt the rotation and bullpen), didn’t really improve the team appreciably, and arguably, it’s gone backwards some.
The reality is that while the team was never as good as when the Bakers and others of the world were predicting contention in the AL West, it’s not as bad now as it seems, either. Felix+Bedard+Beltre+Ichiro+Putz(+maybe Lopez, Clement, Wlad) is a fine base to start with…. given competent management that can correctly identify weaknesses and strengths of the current roster. The problem is this management team has NO clue how to do this, because they are stuck on using evaluation tools that won’t work when your competition is Beane and Epstein, and there’s an absurd amount of veteran entitlement spread through the organization (I would submit that these factors are more than somewhat related).
Howie: “Chuck,some of the fans are calling for Bill’s head.”
Chuckie: “Why,do they wanna go bowling?”
Howie:”No, dummy. They want him fired.”
Chuckie: “Hmmm. Yeah. Let’s go to Vegas. Pass me some of that escargot.”
I hope you tell KJR, that despite being very grateful to ownership for the excitement of the Gillick/Piniella era, there are some of us who feel they are the problem, not the solution,and that some of us want a completely new plan.
This is a badly-assembled team of mostly overpaid, mostly mediocre talents who aren’t being used in ways that compensate for their weaknesses or maximize their abilities.
Eloquently stated. The only reason to “look any farther than that” is to try to understand WHY the team was assembled so poorly and is now being managed so poorly. It is simply organizational ignorance incompetence, or is it more insidious that that…
The reality is that while the team was never as good as when the Bakers and others of the world were predicting contention in the AL West, it’s not as bad now as it seems, either. Felix+Bedard+Beltre+Ichiro+Putz(+maybe Lopez, Clement, Wlad) is a fine base to start with…. given competent management that can correctly identify weaknesses and strengths of the current roster. The problem is this management team has NO clue how to do this, because they are stuck on using evaluation tools that won’t work when your competition is Beane and Epstein, and there’s an absurd amount of veteran entitlement spread through the organization (I would submit that these factors are more than somewhat related).
Well said.
I am sorry I mentioned the chemistry word earlier, even if it was in sarcasm. Yesterday was way more fun when we got to blame Burke for everything.
Two good pitchers coming up, NYY aren’t very good this year. I’m still feeling confident we’re going to win one on this road trip. I’m just ignoring the many more chances we have to lose.
I just want to say that I think this is really important and doesn’t get nearly enough consideration. “Bad luck” means “chance”, not some mystical mojo. Chance plays an enormous role in the outcome of a baseball game.
It would be wrong to expect a new skipper to do what Jack McKeon did in Florida or Phil Garner in Houston. Right now I’d settle for a sense of order and a feeling the inmates aren’t running the asylum. I’m talking to you, Jarrod.
Ponies. The Ms are a multi-year project.
Do they have anyone in the development pipeline that is going to star somewhere up the middle? Can Clement really C, and what about SS, 2B, CF?
The M’s could realistically end up in the playoffs next year.
Development pipeline?
Groz may not ask you this, Dave, so I will: what’s your solution at 1B?
The Mariners have had four years to develop or acquire a power-hitting prospect who can replace Richie Sexson. Who’s the future for this position? Jeff Clement? Raul Ibanez is a free agent in 2009 and won’t sign here to DH. Do you make him a 1B? Trade him for one? (If the FO loves him that much, they ship him to a contender and then re-sign him after the season is over.)
Teixera.
You either convert Clement to first base or trade him and bring in a new 1B from outside the organization.
#28 that was more hilarious the second time around. Thanks for that, I was tired of laughing only about the M’s.
62: First base is never a position that should be a difficulty for an organization. There are free resources lying around the weak side of the defensive spectrum all the time (e.g., Bucky Jacobsen). The M’s haven’t developed a first baseman since Tino, who left in 1995, and they’ve been fine there most of the time (the last two years being the real exceptions). Ibanez isn’t going to get any offers to play anything other than DH after 2009.
Clement for Votto
hook it up!
I don’t get KJR over here, what was said?
68, it’s tomorrow.
Ponies. The Ms are a multi-year project.
Really? They’ve got plenty of salary coming off the books in 2009, and replacing Sexson and Vidro with free talent that can hit .260/.320/.425 is ridiculously easy, given a competent GM. While Washburn, Silva and Batista look terrible right now, they are the same players they have always been- put in a defense behind them that could actually GET to balls in play and they’d go from being horrible to likely fooling people they are fairly good. Remember, this team was able to win 90 games with guys like Paul Abbott and Ryan Franklin- you don’t need Cy Young Award winners at 3/4/5 with a decent defense.
The organization is good at finding 1-2 young bullpen arms a year, and there’s talent in the system, even though the top level isn’t really stocked. Seriously, this is not 2004, where you had the decrepit hulks of Boone, Edgar, Olerud, Aurilia, Spiezio, and Wilson playing 6 out of 9 positions in the batting order, and basically nothing behind them, and Felix and Bedard are CLEARLY better than Freddy was.
How much of the cash coming off the books for Sexson and Vidro is going to be required to keep Bedard?
71: You think Bedard has any interest in staying here? ROFL
He’ll be a cub, dodger, yankee, red sock or angel this time next year
Teixera 2009 ~= Sexson 2004
Teixera 2008: .274 / .365/ .440
Sexson 2003: .272 / .379 / .548
Yes, there are differences, obviously. But they’ll be the same age, and in both cases you’ll end up paying too much for too many years to fill a non-premium defensive position with an “established veteran.” The definition of insanity is to repeat the same actions expecting a different result. Well, if not insanity then perpetual, failing mediocrity. To quote Dave writing at another site (The whole comment thread there is worth reading)
If Teixera is the answer, you’re asking the wrong question.
He’ll be a cub, dodger, yankee, red sock or angel this time next year
The M’s have him for 2009 (Bedard can’t enter free agency until after the 2009 season, so either they offer him something he likes or they go to arbitration, but either way he can’t leave this offseason). I don’t see them trading him in the offseason, but of course it’s possible, just as it’s possible he’ll be traded at the deadline in July next year, though as the authors here have shown, allowing veterans to walk and picking up the compensatory draft pick often works out just as well.
It’s Teixeira, I believe
Yeah, I was just copying and pasting what he wrote. Seemed funnier at the time.
ummmm…. okay?
Well, that explains why nobody told me. =D
There are some reasons to believe Teixeira wont continue to underperform in 2008. However, if he does, it could lower his market value.
You’re comparing less than half a season of Mark Teixeira (a half season in which his BABIP is down ~25 points from his career norms) to a full season of Sexson. Tex is better defensively, gets on base at a higher clip than Sexson during his peak, and he shouldn’t age as badly as Richie.
I would be in favor of a Teixeira signing, but I’m willing to accept that there’s a case to be made against it. I’m not willing to accept that Teixeira is not a much better option in 2009 than Sexson was in 2005.
I don’t see why, Teixeira is a much better contact hitter, is a terrific defender, doesn’t have the injury history, and is suited for this ballpark.
Helton, Giambi, Delgado, Sexson, Thome, Konerko, Hafner… signing 1B/DHs to long term, big money deals never works.
Typical Idiot Fan: I don’t get KJR over here, what was said?
You can listen to it on their stream at KJRam.com. Click “Listen Live” at the top left.
The 2008 Mariners:
“Paper bags on sale now!”
I am eagerly anticipating Dave’s return to the airwaves. I’m picturing him right now sharpening a pitchfork and lighting torches.
I’m with joser re: Teixeira. I think he’s gonna have injury trouble, and decline from this point
Since the Friday game blog thread isn’t up yet:
4:38 p.m.: This from MLB:
New York Yankees manager Joe Girardi has been suspended for one game and fined an undisclosed amount for his inappropriate actions, which included kicking dirt on Umpire Chris Guccione, during the bottom of the ninth inning of his Club’s game last night against the Baltimore Orioles at Yankee Stadium. Girardi is scheduled to serve his suspension tonight, when the Yankees host the Seattle Mariners.
Remains to be seen whether the Yankees play better WITHOUT Girardi egging on the hotheads, but this is a great chance to win against a club being run one game by the bench coach.
…essentially that’s been the situation for the past year with the M’s themselves, which SHOULD even the playing field, right?