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	<title>Comments on: The Rotation</title>
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	<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/</link>
	<description>Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion with David Cameron and Derek Zumsteg</description>
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		<title>By: Wells</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274674</link>
		<dc:creator>Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 18:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274674</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve got a very schizophrenic attitude towards ERA. Some posts it&#039;s only used by morons who don&#039;t understand pitching, and then now you use it to make a baseball point.

Which is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve got a very schizophrenic attitude towards ERA. Some posts it&#8217;s only used by morons who don&#8217;t understand pitching, and then now you use it to make a baseball point.</p>
<p>Which is it?</p>
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		<title>By: beckya57</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274599</link>
		<dc:creator>beckya57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 17:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274599</guid>
		<description>I agree with your analysis of the M&#039;s, but not with your conclusion.  Lots of teams have built around their pitching--the 1990&#039;s Braves come to mind--and done just fine.  The M&#039;s problem is that they have BAD pitchers.  Silva, Washburn and Batista are #4 starters on their good days and #10 starters on their bad ones.  Felix is still learning, and Bedard has seriously underperformed (yet another reason to hate that trade).  I still think he isn&#039;t healthy, but who knows.  It&#039;s the players, not the model, that is the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your analysis of the M&#8217;s, but not with your conclusion.  Lots of teams have built around their pitching&#8211;the 1990&#8217;s Braves come to mind&#8211;and done just fine.  The M&#8217;s problem is that they have BAD pitchers.  Silva, Washburn and Batista are #4 starters on their good days and #10 starters on their bad ones.  Felix is still learning, and Bedard has seriously underperformed (yet another reason to hate that trade).  I still think he isn&#8217;t healthy, but who knows.  It&#8217;s the players, not the model, that is the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: pygmalion</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274594</link>
		<dc:creator>pygmalion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 17:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274594</guid>
		<description>Oops.  Must have accidentally deleted the &quot;slash&quot; from the close bquote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  Must have accidentally deleted the &#8220;slash&#8221; from the close bquote.</p>
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		<title>By: pygmalion</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274592</link>
		<dc:creator>pygmalion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 17:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274592</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Dave - not sure I agree with this statement without knowing the alternative plan. Do you have a post on how the team should be built? (Link?)&lt;blockquote&gt;

This is sort of related, although not entirely, because it relates to payroll, and sometimes you payroll can be bizarre.  But Baseball Prospectus studied this and found that the &quot;happy zone&quot; for expenditures on pitching payroll is more than 33% of your payroll, but less than 50%.  Teams that spent more than 50% or less than 33% on pitching tended to be bad.  

Why is this?  Here&#039;s a simplified explanation.  There are two parts to baseball: Run creation and run prevention.  Offense is all there is to one-half of the game.  But pitching does NOT equal the other half of the game, because it is split between pitching and defense.  So too much focus on pitching can be self-defeating unless you managed to acquire amazingly dominant strike-out pitchers.  It is therefore a bad idea to think that good pitching can carry a team that is bad at defense and offense, because defense and offense are more than half the game.  Pitching is also far less consistent than either hitting or defense.  So you are putting yourself in a situation where catastrophic bad luck is more likely to strike your team than otherwise.

Pitching becomes more important in the playoffs because dominant starters and closers become more important, due to a variety of factors.  And maybe that is what makes people think that you should build a team around a pitching staff.  But then we are usually talking about teams that are at least decent at offense and defense, not horribly bad, like we are.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Dave &#8211; not sure I agree with this statement without knowing the alternative plan. Do you have a post on how the team should be built? (Link?)<br />
<blockquote>
<p>This is sort of related, although not entirely, because it relates to payroll, and sometimes you payroll can be bizarre.  But Baseball Prospectus studied this and found that the &#8220;happy zone&#8221; for expenditures on pitching payroll is more than 33% of your payroll, but less than 50%.  Teams that spent more than 50% or less than 33% on pitching tended to be bad.  </p>
<p>Why is this?  Here&#8217;s a simplified explanation.  There are two parts to baseball: Run creation and run prevention.  Offense is all there is to one-half of the game.  But pitching does NOT equal the other half of the game, because it is split between pitching and defense.  So too much focus on pitching can be self-defeating unless you managed to acquire amazingly dominant strike-out pitchers.  It is therefore a bad idea to think that good pitching can carry a team that is bad at defense and offense, because defense and offense are more than half the game.  Pitching is also far less consistent than either hitting or defense.  So you are putting yourself in a situation where catastrophic bad luck is more likely to strike your team than otherwise.</p>
<p>Pitching becomes more important in the playoffs because dominant starters and closers become more important, due to a variety of factors.  And maybe that is what makes people think that you should build a team around a pitching staff.  But then we are usually talking about teams that are at least decent at offense and defense, not horribly bad, like we are.</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: eponymous coward</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274569</link>
		<dc:creator>eponymous coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 15:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274569</guid>
		<description>There are plenty of teams that have relied heavily on the talent on their pitching staffs. The problem is the Mariners are spectacularly incompetent at identifying quality starting pitching, because they are paying Silva, Washburn and Batista 25-30 million to provide marginal improvement on three Cha Seung Baeks. A well-run team who wanted to really have outstanding pitching would be allocating that money considerably differently, to where there was a 3rd pitcher in the King Felix/Bedard class making a huge contract, and then using cheap pitch-to-contact innings eaters at 4-5, or would have converted Morrow to a starter last year, so that by now he might be ready to enter the rotation similar to what Piñeiro did in 2001, or... well, you get the idea.

They&#039;ve compounded that inefficiency with their money by having a terrible defense back up three pitchers whose assets are that, given a solid defense behind them, they can fool you into thinking they are much better than they actually are. I&#039;m convinced that if we actually HAD a world-class defense behind these guys, at least one of them would be having an Aaron Sele/Paul Abbott/Ryan Franklin in 2003 sort of mirage year. Instead, the defensive shortcomings make them look like garbage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are plenty of teams that have relied heavily on the talent on their pitching staffs. The problem is the Mariners are spectacularly incompetent at identifying quality starting pitching, because they are paying Silva, Washburn and Batista 25-30 million to provide marginal improvement on three Cha Seung Baeks. A well-run team who wanted to really have outstanding pitching would be allocating that money considerably differently, to where there was a 3rd pitcher in the King Felix/Bedard class making a huge contract, and then using cheap pitch-to-contact innings eaters at 4-5, or would have converted Morrow to a starter last year, so that by now he might be ready to enter the rotation similar to what Piñeiro did in 2001, or&#8230; well, you get the idea.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve compounded that inefficiency with their money by having a terrible defense back up three pitchers whose assets are that, given a solid defense behind them, they can fool you into thinking they are much better than they actually are. I&#8217;m convinced that if we actually HAD a world-class defense behind these guys, at least one of them would be having an Aaron Sele/Paul Abbott/Ryan Franklin in 2003 sort of mirage year. Instead, the defensive shortcomings make them look like garbage.</p>
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		<title>By: jro</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274563</link>
		<dc:creator>jro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 15:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274563</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;This is why you don’t build a team around a pitching staff.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Dave - not sure I agree with this statement without knowing the alternative plan.  Do you have a post on how the team should be built?  (Link?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>This is why you don’t build a team around a pitching staff.</p></blockquote>
<p>Dave &#8211; not sure I agree with this statement without knowing the alternative plan.  Do you have a post on how the team should be built?  (Link?)</p>
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		<title>By: msb</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274559</link>
		<dc:creator>msb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 14:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274559</guid>
		<description>I like ponies. But then, I don&#039;t have to watch &quot;My little pony, the end of Flutter Valley&quot; 5 times a day.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Mariners built this team around a pitching rotation of “five number ones”.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

do we excuse that comment as it came out of the mouth of their pitching coach, who is paid to shine them up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like ponies. But then, I don&#8217;t have to watch &#8220;My little pony, the end of Flutter Valley&#8221; 5 times a day.</p>
<blockquote><p>The Mariners built this team around a pitching rotation of “five number ones”.</p></blockquote>
<p>do we excuse that comment as it came out of the mouth of their pitching coach, who is paid to shine them up?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274547</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 08:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274547</guid>
		<description>Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the ponies are sending me subliminal messages.

They are saying we must encourage Howard Lincoln to get rid of Chuck Armstrong and replace him with someone like Terry Ryan or Larry Beinfest so the repairing can begin, then this new president can fire Bavasi and other people that need to be fired.

Man, these ponies are smart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the ponies are sending me subliminal messages.</p>
<p>They are saying we must encourage Howard Lincoln to get rid of Chuck Armstrong and replace him with someone like Terry Ryan or Larry Beinfest so the repairing can begin, then this new president can fire Bavasi and other people that need to be fired.</p>
<p>Man, these ponies are smart.</p>
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		<title>By: scott19</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274544</link>
		<dc:creator>scott19</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 08:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274544</guid>
		<description>Ah, I remember that movie -- where George Hamilton actually &lt;em&gt;becomes&lt;/em&gt; Dracula (er, sort of)! :)

Interestingly, during a game in which we were getting blown out last year and our thoughts started to drift elsewhere, someone had mentioned that they always thought Rizzy reminded them of Neil Diamond.  Actually, I could see that, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I remember that movie &#8212; where George Hamilton actually <em>becomes</em> Dracula (er, sort of)! <img src='http://ussmariner.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Interestingly, during a game in which we were getting blown out last year and our thoughts started to drift elsewhere, someone had mentioned that they always thought Rizzy reminded them of Neil Diamond.  Actually, I could see that, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Colm</title>
		<link>http://ussmariner.com/2008/05/23/the-rotation/comment-page-2/#comment-274543</link>
		<dc:creator>Colm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 07:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ussmariner.com/?p=5224#comment-274543</guid>
		<description>Nah, it&#039;s the creepy, patently-faked affability.  

I just had a brainwave: With the perma-tan and the glinting teeth and shiney eyes, Rizzs reminds me of George Hamilton playing a vampire in Love at First Bite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nah, it&#8217;s the creepy, patently-faked affability.  </p>
<p>I just had a brainwave: With the perma-tan and the glinting teeth and shiney eyes, Rizzs reminds me of George Hamilton playing a vampire in Love at First Bite.</p>
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