The thing about the All-Star game
I used to take voting standards quite seriously: I’d argue with people about how much you should weight season-to-date against season-from-All-Star-to-All-Star and career achievement.
I came around eventually to this: it doesn’t matter. Once you let the fans elect the players, whatever standards individual fans want to use is fine. It’s like any other democratic election: you can tell me what I’m voting for, and you can argue why, but I’m the only person who comes up with a basis for my decision.
And that’s fine. It doesn’t work that well, but neither do manager selections, and it means that sometimes Cal Ripken plays when he doesn’t reaaaaallly deserve to on any basis but “we want to see Cal Ripken in the All-Star game again”… but that’s fine.
It’s actually kind of awesome: we spend the whole season powerless as our manager plays Miguel Cairo and bats him next to Jose Vidro, and for once we have some small, direct, fractional say in whatever way we want.
Or, to shorten this: vote for Ichiro if you want to see him in the All-Star game, whatever your reasoning, and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
The problem, to harp on this one more time, is that the game, which is a staged pony show featuring ponies picked through a capricious voting method, has any affect at all on who wins the World Series. I blame Bud Selig.
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The problem is, I WANT to see Miguel Cairo in the All-Star Game, I just don’t want to see him in a Mariners game ever again.
I’m going to be really excited when Bud is gone. Unless they get someone worse.
But look how good a switch did for the NFL
I’ve voted a couple times, and besides ICHIRO!, I try to be as “legit” as I can be…I think that Jeter ALWAYS being the starter is absolutely stupid, but if he gets enough votes from stupid fans, so be it…I just hate that this popularity contest actually “means” something now…it should just be an exhibition…no more, no less…
All-Star voting is a joke in every sport. I remember back in my high school days, I knew a guy interning for the Sonics and he brought a ton of ballots to school giving them to everybody. Telling them vote for who they wanted but they had to vote for the Sonics players first. I think the Sonics were accused of loading the ballot box that year.
When I was in high school, my friend wanted to become a member of the homecoming squad. Unfortunately, we were of the debate ilk and not exactly the most popular. What’d be we? Sneak out a ton of ballots, then sneak them into the voted pile. He became a prince, and the whole school was in an uproar. You know, kind of like a Presidential election.
Does this mean we can vote for Cairo to play first? The all star team surely needs his veteran presence, grit, spark, and ability to call what pitch is coming next. His skill set is wasted on the M’s.
It’s not a problem as long as you consider it an exhibition game that has no effect on anything else in the universe. As Derek says, it’s only Selig insistence on having its outcome affect the world series that makes it a joke (and that jokiness then taints the WS).
Here’s a question, though. Let’s suppose we took the game seriously, and got rid of the voting, the obligatory pity selections for bad teams, and any opportunity for meddling by managers. Let’s go strictly by stats: the best two or three guys at each position, the best five starters, and the best five or so relievers. What stats would you use to determine “best” for this purpose? OPS for position players? FIP for pitchers? VORP for everybody? Accumulated WPA?
Having the game based on fan voting is exactly how it should be, in my opinion; it’s supposed to be an exhibition game, and how better to determine who fans would want to see play than just by raw vote totals, even if that ends up with most of the starters being from the Yankees or Red Sox?
There’s no way to modify the rules such that having the results of the game have ANY effect on the World Series wouldn’t be utterly farcical.
I don’t have a problem with it affecting the World Series. I don’t think it legitimizes the selection process in the least, but it might — might — make the actual playing of the game a little more like a real baseball game.
But mostly I don’t have a problem with it affecting the World Series because I think it’s no worse than the old system of the World Series being affected by whether the year ends in an odd or even number.
Erm, I disagree. The old “system” was that home field advantage alternates. The AL is 11-0 in the last 12 ASGs, 15-3 in the last 19. Even if the record were closer to equal, 50-50 seems far superior to effectively random.
Why are you putting “system” in quotes?
The old system was unfair and had no reasonable rationale. The current system is unfair and is at least trying to improve the fairness.
And a coin can flip heads eleven times in a row. If the AL has won eleven times in a row because it’s really better, on the other hand, what’s wrong with giving the AL team the home advantage, since they’ve made it through a tougher league.
I’d prefer it be the team with the most wins getting the home field advantage (don’t know what the tiebreaker would be), and I don’t know why that hasn’t been the system all along.
System is in quotes because I think it’s kind of lofty for “alternating back and forth” 🙂 But yeah, no good reason.
I think 50-50 is just about as fair as it could possibly be. But “fair” is a slippery adjective to be using.
Totally agree. Doesn’t regular-season record affect home field advantage in the playoffs?
Wait a minute . . . you mean the Yankees, Red Sox and Ichiro versus the Mets, Phillies and Pujols shouldn’t be used to decide home field advantage in the most prestigious championship in American sport? Whatever. Go YankIchiSox!
I dont think that the best overall regular season record really makes sense to determine the tie breaker for the WS.
Sure, within each team’s respective league it makes perfect sense for seeding 1 thru 4, but I dont think it works for determining the WS.
The teams are playing within their own league. There is no way to say if the AL champ had the better record than the NL champ, then AL champ had the “better” season (compared the the NL champ) and deserve home field. Each leauge’s schedules are (mostly) independent and therefore the balance in the competition of the two leauges can be very different.
Yeah, it does. Weird.
*Leagues. Nice. Twice even.
If the AL has won eleven times in a row because it’s really better, on the other hand, what’s wrong with giving the AL team the home advantage, since they’ve made it through a tougher league.
And if they played the all-star game like a real baseball game, you might be able to make that case. But given the “everybody gets at least one inning” and “the starters gets pulled after two or three innings, no matter how well they’re doing” and the various other unwritten rules that distort the game, the All-Star game can’t be presumed to accurately measure anything, and certainly not which is the tougher league (even setting aside the best players may not even get voted into the game).
I’d prefer it be the team with the most wins getting the home field advantage (don’t know what the tiebreaker would be)
Well, yeah (and the tiebreaker would be playoff record, I’d say). Except if one league is really weaker than the other, you’re effectively rewarding the team that had an easier route to the World Series.
Doesn’t regular-season record affect home field advantage in the playoffs?
Yes. And who you play, for the divisional round.
Just for the hell of it, I looked at WPA for all players so far this year (ignoring my complaint about considering the last half of last year because I’m lazy and short on time at the moment) and came up with these all-star lineups and backups (minimum 0 WPA to qualify). Yeah, I know WPA doesn’t factor in defense, can overvalue a couple of high-leverage situations, yadda yadda. This is just for fun:
American League
C Mauer, none other qualified
1B Morneau, Youkilis/Guillen
2B Pedroia, Jose Lopez
3B Mora, Youkilis/Guillen
SS None qualified. (Seriously, check it out)
OF Ramirez, Hamilton, Quentin, Matsui, Cust(!), Sizemore
SP: Lee, Saunders, Marcum, Contreras, Matsuzaka
RP: Ryan, Rivera, Nathan, Sherrill, Soria
Man, the AL kind of sucks (so far) this year. Remember when there were too many great shortstops? Not having any is kind of a problem; but if we bend the rules I just made up, amazingly Betancourt at -.22 leads the pack, followed by Michael Young at -.37 and “clutch” Jeter at -.44
No Ichiro. Yay Jose.
Team breakdown:
Royals 1, Orioles 2, Twins 2, Yankees 2, Blue Jays 2, Red Sox 4, White Sox 2, Angels 1, Indians 2, A’s 1, Rangers 1, Tigers 1, Mariners 1 (if we count the shortstops, add one to the M’s and the Rangers)
Seems reasonable. The only team left out is the Rays. If you must have a pity pick, Pena at 1B or Longoria at 3B could be justified (though not if it bumps Youkilis or Guillen), otherwise it’s SP Edwin Jackson.
National League
C Molina, Martin
1B Berkman, Pujols
2B Uggla, Utley
3B Ramirez, Jones
SS Tejada, Drew
OF Burrell, Holliday, Bay, McLouth, Fukudome, Dunn
SP Wainwright, Volquez, Cook, Zambrano, Hudson
RP Lidge, Mamol, Buchholz, Capps, Franklin (!) (yes, as in Ryan)
Team breakdown:
Giants 1, Dodgers 1, Astros 2, Cardinals 3, Marlins 1, Phillies 3, Diamondbacks 1, Cubs 4, Braves 2, Rockies 3, Pirates 3, Reds 2
Missing teams: Brewers, Mets, Nationals, Padres. Pity picks to get them in would probably be Sheets, Santana, (have to skip over Lincecum to get those two, though), Rauch, Peavey
I know I’m going to draw heat for this, but the reason King Bud changed the rule is so that it would not be a “staged pony show” and would maybe, possibly, actually be a baseball game. At least to my way of thinking, it seems to have been mildly successful. The actual play of the game seems to be at least somewhere in the players’ and managers’ minds now, unlike the farce it had become in the Year of the Tie.
Personally, I think playing for WS home field in the AS game makes more sense than interleague play.
Indeed, it’s the worst way to pick an All-Star team, except for all the others.
Case in point:
If stats were used to pick all-star rosters, first there’d be a massive squabble every year amonst whatever rules commitee picked the stats. “Hey, xFIP is better than FIP.” “FIP doesn’t take leverage into account…”, “Who cares, there’s no such thing as clutch…”
Second, why would we think FIP, WPA and OPS would even be under consideration? Most likely, we’d have AVG, HR, RBIs, Wins, Saves and ERA as the deciding stats. That’s the most common mistake people make when they decide letting idiots vote is a bad way to decide things. They assume whatever decision making cabal replaces the voters will be smarter, more honorable, and, most importantly, decide things exactly the same way they would. If that ever is the case, it usually doesn’t last very long. Turns out idiots voting in large numbers are far better in the long run than “the best and the brightest” making decisions when they aren’t accountable to anyone else for the results.
Go vote!
I know the All-Star Game having any effect on the World Series champion is unfair, but I still like it. Sorry the National League.
It’s always going to be a staged pony show, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.
It’s not any more a “real baseball game” than it ever was.
Second, why would we think FIP, WPA and OPS would even be under consideration?
Because I’m asking here at USSM, not among the idiots at large.
It’s always going to be a staged pony show, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.
It’s not any more a “real baseball game†than it ever was.
Exactly. Which is why we should treat it as such (the players goofing off have the right idea, and a tie game because they ran out of pitchers is hilarious, especially when it shows Selig to be a doofus who has trouble thinking on his feet) and why it shouldn’t have any effect on anything that “matters.”
Personally, I think Ichiro should be allowed to select the All-Star team.
All of it, for both leagues.
Now I don’t want to get off on a rant here but…arg! Duh! Why are we even having this argument? Where did this phony baloney the-all-star-game-has-to-mean-something crap come from? It’s an exhibition game and should be embraced as such.
I think the All Star game should be played with a wiffle ball. I think peg rules should apply. I think the players should wear shorts and drink beer. I think umps should stay home and Harlem Globetrotters antics should be encouraged. Then, after everyone’s sobered up, we go back to playing baseball. Real baseball. Not silly, every-team-has-a- representative-and-you-can’t-use-that-pitcher-because-his-team-will-be-mad-and-you- ought-to-use-this-player-cause-he-was-born-here-and-the-fans-would-really-like-it baseball. Real baseball.
Contrived attempts to make fun things serious are just lame lame lame.
It’s usually safe to blame Bud Selig. I blame Bug Selig about six times a day. Eight times a day on those days when I catch a game on TV or radio. Ten if in person.
mkd, I’m confused why you’re quoting my preference about World Series home advantage before your rant about the all-star game that my quote doesn’t seem to have anything to do with.
Of course it’s far from perfect. But what would be a better system? Apart from outliers like last year, the quality of the two leagues is usually comparable. Giving home field advantage to the team with the best record isn’t going to give it to the team that has played better every single year, no doubt, but it’s going to do a better job than just alternating home field advantage. I’d like to have seen those two mediocre Minnesota championship teams win without that randomly awarded home field advantage, for example.
The fairest solution would be a neutral site, which of course has no chance in hell of ever happening.
What if home field were determined by the league that wins the most interleague games? That’s as good a measure of the quality of the leagues as the ASG.
scraps- your quote was the launching pad that set me off. I just so completely agree with your sentiment (best record = HFA) that I can’t believe there are people who would possibly disagree with it. My stream of consciousness ire was directed out at the world for conspiring to make good hard working Americans fight for things that ought to be taken for granted (like, best record = HFA). I felt like I was seconding your motion (but then of course it just got silly).
Remeber when about half of the AL team was Mariners in 01? Ahhh…. What a perfect season that was. Until it ended of coarse.
I agree with anyone who thinks that it should be a voted love fest but shouldn’t mean anything other than expensive advertising time.
To bad J-Lo isn’t getting more votes, he deserves it this year.
What if home field were determined by the league that wins the most interleague games? That’s as good a measure of the quality of the leagues as the ASG.
That’s kind of interesting, though is there always an odd number of interleague games each year (to avoid the possibility of a tied record)? The best part about it is that the it would make the “traditionalists” hate interleague play even more. (I guess if you’re a traditionalist you’d want to go back to the alternating year thing… unless you’re a hardcore traditionalist, in which case you’d want a best of nine series, or maybe one played without lights with the possibility of ties due to lack of daylight, or maybe just call the WS an exhibition like it was pre-1903)
Amen, brother!
Ways to grant home field advantange for the WS:
– Grant home field to the team that has gone the longest without a WS victory. (Sort of like college football conference tiebreakers.)
– Coin Toss.
How about a Selig toss? Throw him off the upper deck of the previous WS winner’s stadium, and if the left side of his body has more broken bones the AL gets home field; the right side, it’s the NL. He should be healed in time to do it again the next year.
35 – That is one the funniest things I have ever read! They should televise it live as a breaking news!
Number of times that home field advantage has made any difference since “This Time it Counts!” started? Zero. Three sweeps and a five gamer.
I annually fill out at least one ballot based on funny names and one based on ex-Mariners (got a lot of choice here, particularly on the AL ballot). Sue me.
No one’s going to read this but…
Selig didn’t connect HFA to the ASG because he cared about the “quality” or “integrity” of the game. It’s a ploy to improve ratings and thereby increase the licensing value. It just helps ensure that jerks like Phil Glass and Jeff Loria are in a good mood when they go to the bank.