The person responsible for the players was ordered to enjoy a delicious beer
DMZ · June 4, 2008 at 8:07 pm · Filed Under Mariners
From the AP game report:
Before McLaren went off, Bavasi ordered each of the 25 Mariners
players to sit at his locker immediately after the game to take full
responsibility publicly for having the worst record in the major
leagues despite a $117 million payroll that is just below the richest
in baseball.
One of his few G-rated remarks was: “Got to buckle down and get after it! It’s got to be a total team effort … ”
Then, after 45 seconds, McLaren stomped off into his office and closed the door.
“He could have said that a month ago,” general manager Bill Bavasi said later.
The walls are crumbling.
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Wow. I like Bavasi as a person and everything, but the man has no idea how to lead. Are antics like that going to motivate players to do anything but loathe the organization? All that’s going to do is create an even greater rift between the players and the management.
I thought this was hilarious. This is not a way to handle professional baseball players (or any professional if you have ever been a manager of people).
One interesting quote from from Silva,
A lot of people in here play for themselves,” losing pitching Carlos Silva said after his sixth consecutive loss. “Like, ‘If I get my two hits, it’s OK. That’s my day. I made my day.”
Purely speculation but I wouldnt be surprised if this was directed at Ichiro. Ive been saying this for years, the guy just isnt a team leader and not the great player that everyone thinks.
Actually more I think about it, it has to be directed at Ichiro, he’s the only one in that lineup that does collect hits.
Yes. Let’s blame one of the only good players on the team on the basis that he doesn’t fit your vision of leadership.
Go away.
Has Ichiro ever pretended to be a “leader”? If you want to say he’s not a leader and you don’t like him because of it, than that’s your opinion, I guess. But you can’t possibly look at what he’s done for this team over the years and say he’s, “not the player that everyone thinks.” That’s just insane.
PI’s report
As much as I want to see this thing crumble to pieces, I’m not comforted in the least about what is to come…
That’s a ridiculous quote. You would never hear someone blame the pitcher for “selfishly” going 7IP with 3H 0BB 8K 1ER would you? Same idea.
If a player performs average defense and is getting two hits a game, chances are considerable that he isn’t the problem. It’s hard to ask for much more. Selfish even.
But armstrong says Bavasi and McLaren are part of the solution, not the problem. Or is it obvious enough by now that you can’t fire a team but you can fire the GM and manager? Actually, I might assume it was Armstrong that would tell Bavasi to tell those selfish players to go think about all that money he pays them at a time like this.
One player muttered under his breath: “What are we in, kindergarten?”
That was almost my exact thought when I read the order for the players to sit in front of their lockers.
let’s see.
Plays position well? check.
Tries hard every day? check.
Talks to teammates on the bench, joshes them in the clubhouse? check.
Is at locker after each game, good or bad, to answer qustions from two sets of reporters? check.
stands on chair in locker room and yells at team? oh, well then, obviously not a leader.
I have detached myself to the point that I can do nothing but laugh and post silly imaginary FO dinner conversations. Sigh. It was either that or lose my mind.
Actually, I think it’s an attempt to get people focused on vague things like chemistry rather than how crappy he is and what a horrible signing he was.
Hey Bill, you could have learned how to be a decent GM 10 years ago.
If a player gets two hits a game, he’s a helluva TEAM player.
What? You want him to field and pitch, too?
Sell the team!
Sell the team!
Sell the team!
Sell the team!
Mark Cuban, where are you!?!?!?!?!
I was interested/surprised to hear Valle in the “it’s the player’s fault” corner, calling for them to not be content with doing only one part of their job well, and to look at what they had done in the past and were not doing this year.
This too from the wire service report:
It seems that maybe Armstrong has lost patience as well. We can only hope he realizes Bavasi is the guy who set this whole fiasco up.
Silva may be talking about Ichiro but if he is than he’s being a bigger *** than he has on that oversized body of his. Ichiro is hardly phoning it in out there. He’s on pace to break the team record for steals so he isn’t just getting his two hits a game. I think Ichiro actually seems to turn it up a notch in terrible seasons like this (see 2004) because he actually values fans being entertained. Ichiro is so far from the problem with this team that the idea is just ludicrous.
Also the reasoning is witless. People are getting two hits a game and that’s the problem? How so? I’d say the problem is the people not getting hits to drive in the people getting two hits in a game. If everyone on this team got two hits in a game, I wouldn’t care about what their attitude was because this team would be a whole freakin’ lot better.
Kindergarteners are what – 5? 6? Given the way they are playing, that sounds about right…
As a member of the media I’ve covered post game the last two games. I’ve never seen a locker room like this since being here since ‘94. We were directed into the locker room first instead of McLearn’s media area. When entering the room I saw a player throwing his shoes and uniform across the room toward the bins. No one would talk for the longest time, until Lopez and Silva spoke. I feel bad for this team, I’m a fan first and it is hard to see this stuff up close. McLearn was pacing back and forth as he waited for the trailing media to come in, I could tell something was up. For a second I thought he might be throwing it in. His speech felt like his last gasps of breath before the ship goes down. My question is, what now?
Mac pre-game via the Times:
“We might be a little complacent. Definitely the way we’ve been going about things, it hasn’t been working. Addition by subtraction has worked, and I’m not saying we’re at that point, but I’m sure ownsership’s not happy putting $120 million dollars on the board and 17 games under .500. There should be some people knowing that we can’t go on like this.”
He said there isn’t a player in the clubhouse exempt from criticism right now, and he added, “I think we all need to take responsibility. Every one of us needs to revaluate where we are, where we need to go and how we get there, and we need to do it now. There is an urgency. This is not the way it’s supposed to be.”"
#18:
Oh ya, Chuck is going to realize that??????
This whole organization is a joke.
-The owner has never seen a baseball game before and only has the team in his hands to increase his and Nintendo’s net worth.
-The CEO only cares about making money
-The President of Baseball Operations uses antiquate methods to run a baseball team
-The coaching staff is dumb and too soft.
-And the players are overpaid, underacheiving, and too complacent
-And there is ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY AND BRAINS IN THIS ORGANIZATION.
And the worst part is, the people that matter most in this organization WILL ALL BE BACK NEXT YEAR.
Any baseball game? Really? As they say on the wikis, [citation needed]
And the rest of that comment’s not much better
“The walls are crumbling.”
-Well I guess an optimist would say, “It’s not like the walls to begin with. We needed to walls anyway”
As a baseball fan and Mariner fan I am saddened by this whole situation. And despite the astounding amount of money these players make I am sure that most of them are unhappy about the situation that they are in. But in the end the only leaders to blame here are those that put these team together, overpaid for their level of talent and put them in a position where they were going to fail. In other words, despite Mac’s obvious flaws as a manager the real culprit is Bill Bavasi -the architect of the team we have. It’s not Ichiro’s fault (really how stupid is this comment), or Sexson or anyone else. Only Bavasi.
#24:
Well he’s never bothered to catch a plane to see his investment in Seattle before.
And btw, how do you know people will be fired at the end of this year? Chuck Armstrong has said the guiding light of this organization has been stability and he’s never seen a season like this before. Do you honestly believes this is anyone’s fault but the players?
It isn’t McLaren or Bavasi getting slammed here, it’s the players and coaches (and some of them deservedly so).
But Lincoln, Armstrong, Bavasi, and even Mac. Not a chance. Their smart because they have more experience, or so they think.
Just watch DMZ as much as I hate to say it, many of the people, if not all the people in charge of this operation will be back next year because this is preceived to be the players’ faults. Oh, and our Japanese owner, still won’t fly out to see a game.
This team wouldn’t fire anybody before this season when they hadn’t made the playoffs in 6 years, so why start now??
Silva blaming other people for his own (and the teams), mediocrity? That’s rich. And we have the pleasure of hearing him for 3.5 more years!
At least Chuck isn’t parroting his “everything is OK” attitude behind closed doors, so there is a glimmer of hope.
*Do you honestly think he believes that this is anyone’s fault but the players and that this season is a fluke?
Thanks for posting that PI report, msb. To me, the sentence I found most annoying was this one:
“Bavasi said he is basically stuck with the players he has, that no team wants to make a trade this far ahead of the July 31 trading deadline.”
Mac will be fired. Read between the lines. Just because they got a vote of confidence a month ago it doesn’t mean he won’t get fired now. Tirades like the one today don’t help his cause. And when Bavasi says “He could have said that a month ago” he is not exactly giving a vote of confidence to his manager.
I like the part where Bavasi says he can’t make a trade because teams don’t like to make deals so far ahead of the July 31 trade deadline.
By my rough count, there were 23 trades from April 1 to June 30, 2007.
Yeah, Bill – It must be so hard for you to make any deals (I take that back – who would want what he’s peddling?).
Having read the blog entry before the article, my initial response was this this was another example of Derek’s fine fiction. But I suppose, as they say, truth is stranger…
I find it interesting that the payroll is being cited around the clubhouse. The best news of the day is that Armstrong is frustrated– here I thought he was just happy that the Moose was still meeting expectations.
Is it hard to see its not a problem when your DH – a player who’s only job is to hit – has an OBP of .256 with zero power over the last ten games. That’s an OPS of .512!
Clement was hitting better and he got sent back down to Tacoma. Wilkerson was hitting even better and he was cut.
Why is Turbo still on this team? Under no method of analysis, (SABRmetric, old school, blowhard sportcaster speculation, etc.) does he merit a place in the roster.
Cut him tonight, don’t let him board the plane for Boston. Tell the players he was cut because he stunk and that others may soon follow.
Do it now.
Self delusion is an amazing thing. From Bavasi’s perspective it is not his fault that this great team he put together is under performing. What I found most astounding is that it’s not like Bavasi deserves the benefit of the doubt. Anyone can have an off year or a bad year. Forget about this year -what is his legacy since he has been here?
#33:
Don’t worry, after a couple Cuban cigars and a couple fine wines, Chuckie will go back to his old self in no time.
27- I’m 90% sure I’ve read that Yamauchi really loves watching Ichiro play. And if the Johjima extension came from Japan, that narrows the list of people considerably, no?
BillyB: “I love Guiness! Look at that nice foamy head!”
Mac: “Yeah, C’est magnifique! A peculiar fruity aftertaste.” (slurp slurp)
BillyB: “Look at the bubbles!”
It’s difficult for me to imagine how it can get worse than this.
Thank you, oh {insert-your-deity-here}.
It’s obvious the pressure to avoid looking completely incompetent is proving quite difficult. Finally, the stink has rolled up hill.
Not that I want to particularly dwell on this, but there’s a huge difference between “Yamauchi has never seen a baseball game” which is the assertion I don’t believe is true and “Yamauchi has never flown to the US to see the Mariners play”.
In the first, you’re arguing incorrectly that the former owner and probably current de facto owner has never seen any baseball at all. You don’t know that, because it’s not true. You don’t even know that he’s never not seen the M’s. He might watch every game he can get on HDTV feeds for all you know.
If you’ve read up on this stuff — and clearly, you have not — you know that he follows Japanese baseball at the very least and has had an active, if infrequent, role in the team’s pursuit of Japanese players.
I am a diehard Dodger fan who’s been reading this brilliant site religiously ever since I discovered it about a year ago. I have to say I feel so much empathy for M’s fans right now it’s ridiculous. I lived in Seattle during the good times last decade and the thought that Bavasi is not only running the show but controlling the message is just sickening. He should be fired immediately and beyond that, I have no opinions.
I don’t plan on posting often but I just wanted the good fans of Seattle to know that knowledgeable baseball fans are aware of what’s happening with this franchise. I hope you turn it around soon.
(No way Dave can rip me for this, right?)
Yamauchi wakes up every morning and immediately turns the game on. He watches practically every single game.
Why isn’t Raul’s lack of leadership ever an issue? Why doesn’t he lead himself to the manager’s office and say “As much as I’d like to, I just can’t play defense any more, please play me at DH.”
We’ve all watched bad teams, including several Mariner versions, and we all love sports cliches. One of the cliches connected to bad teams is “Even though things are going badly, nobody is pointing fingers or trying to shift the blame.” At least that’s what they say publicly. Privately they may indeed be pointing fingers and shifting blame but you don’t do that publicly. You just don’t. Winning teams can fight publicly because nobody cares, the team is winning. (Think the New York Yankees of the 70s.) Losing teams need to keep that stuff behind closed doors. Comments such as Silva’s are the clearest indication yet that the end is near and it won’t be pretty. To quote the mad bomber from Speed, “Messes like that, they don’t even count body parts.”
he’s an octogenarian who doesn’t catch a plane to any where outside of Japan.
He also ponied up the money to buy the team as a gesture to the area who housed Nintendo, following a request from the community– he didn’t go looking to invest in the team. He also took a lot of racist crap from other MLB owners after making the offer.
I’m the guy who complained about a Dodger’s fan making fun of me a month ago. Well, today a Pirates fan did the same.
I almost drove off the road listening to him on the phone. I’m starting to wonder if my allegiance and attentiveness is worth the pain and anguish. I swear this is worse than being a hardcore liberal and getting ish. It is worse than being a white boy in a Samoan neighborhood. It is worse than being and explorer contacting a cannibalistic tribe in the Amazon.
My Indian friend always questions me after a loss, asking “why is it so important, when you are so passionate about more important things?” I’ve run out of reasons, all I can say now is, “I have no clue.”
He said that two weeks ago as well, when he’d been talking to other teams about Baek; most teams are not thinking about pulling the plug, as this one is.
That PI article really shows some serious problems with this organization.
Bavasi and his “you go to the corner and think about what you did” statement to the players — he just lost whatever respect they had for him.
Mclaren’s rant was fine, but it should have happened weeks ago. Now he just looks clueless and out of touch, if not disingenuous.
And the players, sitting around watching “Super Troopers” this morning at the clubhouse. Terrible signal to send beyond the walls, especially to the non-baseball types in the front office.
My thoughts before were to blow up the team because the parts were bad. Now I think they need an overhaul because there is just some bad karma in that place. Time to change the flavor in a very big way.
#41:
Oh great, he’s follows JAPANESE BASEBALL. Not AMERICAN BASEBALL, but baseball half a world away from us.
And lets not forget all those great Japanese players the Mariners have signed the last few years such as Hiroki Kuroda, Kosuke Fukudome, and Daisuke Matsuzaka.
Oh wait, those players AREN’T ON THE MARINERS!!!!!
I don’t care how many games he’s seen on TV or in person or whatever, how am I supposed to take this owner seriously if he’s not going to show his face to any of us and give us an explanation through an interpreter as to why this crap from Howard Lincoln on down has gone on this year and the last few years.
Until this man were to hold a press conference for the fans in Seattle and Japan who follow this team or be interviewed in several newspapers in Seattle and Japan and apologizes for what has gone on, how the heck am I supposed to take this guy seriously?
I’ve never seen his face, he’s never said anything bad about this management led by Howard Lincoln, attendance has declined each year, he’s never flown to Seattle to see a game, and he’s never commented publicly about how this team hasn’t made the playoffs since ‘01 and should be operating itself with urgency.
Whether people know it or not, this absentee owner runs this team like a corporation. As long as this team is making a profit, no one gets hurt.
Please Seattle, just admit we would be better off with an American born owner or ownership group that doesn’t involve a corporation and has deep pockets.
Chuckie and Billy’s tirades might be an indication that Yamauchi is fed up. Ichiro was asked by the press what needed to be done, and he said, “I don’t think it’s even worth it at this point to answer that question.”
We can only hope that Yamauchi retools the entire FO. Ah, to dream.
[]
And regarding Bavasi’s comment:
“Oh yeah? No. Go ahead and DFA me.”
Can you imagine what the flight to Boston must be like? Holy cow, I wouldn’t want to be on that plane.
Given the events of the day, it seems clear that changes are coming. In a situation like this, there is plenty of blame to go around, and no one, from Armstrong on down, should feel confident in their continued employment with the Mariners.
The assumption has been made on this thread that Ichiro is the player that Silva was calling out. First of all, Silva indicated that there is more than one player that is playing for himself. Second of all, Ichiro is not the only one who is hitting right now…Lopez and Betancourt would also qualify. It very well could be that Silva was talking about them, or someone else. In any event, the Silva comment indicates to me that the reason behind the team’s poor record is not limited to the talent on the team, or lack of. This is a 75-80 win team on paper; it’s the “chemistry” or other intangible issues that seem to be making it play like a 50-60 win team right now.
I agree with 44…the end is near and it won’t be pretty.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there it is.
Bye-bye.
Exactly how effective do Mac and Bavasi expect these tirades to do? Why don’t they take some responsibility, too? Good leaders readily admit their faults and it’s apparent both Bavasi and Mac feel they are perfect. I never hear ‘I made a mistake here’ or anything of the like. They never admit mistakes, never say they are sorry.
Making players sit at their lockers for the media circus is ridiculous. It’s as if they feel setting the players up as pinatas for the media is going to somehow make them play better? I can only imagine the morale there being so much worse for this stupid stunt. I don’t blame Sexson for not sitting through it – he’s already been effectively disowned (replaced by Cairo no less), what can they possibly do to him to make it worse? They’re not going to cut him, and, if they did, would that be such a terrible thing for Richie at this point?
The only bright side I can see to this is that management is gutted, the dead weight is dropped overboard and the team turns an eye towards the future next year. If you’re the guy in charge of assembling this team, how can you not be held accountable? How can any competent business owner not look at the GM and say ‘hey, this clusterf*** is your damn fault?’
Grah I am just so damn frustrated (which is a feeling I know many here share). I didn’t have high hopes for this year, too many signs just pointed towards a mediocre year. Never in my wildest nightmares did I envision the worst team in mariners history.
I thought Silva’s quote was inadvertently totally legit. If anyone on this roster is capable of getting two hits in a single game, By The Power Of Greyskull, let him at it. To hell with everyone else, hit your incentives if you can, it’s every mediocre bat and arm for himself!
I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but the racism behind this is not only resentful, the very comment is ignorant.
Please go elsewhere.
It’s really interesting how all of this losing finally starts to rub people the wrong way. It’s not like they were 25 games over .500 and then all of a sudden they woke up 17 or 18 under. It’s been like this since they went on that ridiculous streak last year where they were like 3 for 20 or something ungodly… you know that streak where they kissed all playoff hopes goodbye… and nothing was done then. But as I tell friends all the time: “The Mariners have mismanaged talent as long as they have had the opportunity to manage it and it is just something I have gotten used to. Thats sad.”
Tom, here is the ownership group of the Seattle Mariners:
Howard Lincoln, chairman and CEO, Board of Directors, representing Nintendo of America.
Christopher Larson, senior program manager for Microsoft
John Ellis, retired chairman and CEO of Puget Sound Power and Light
Frank Shrontz, former chairman and CEO of The Boeing Co.
Wayne Perry, vice chairman Nextlink Communications and former president of McCaw
Cellular
Craig Watjen, former Microsoft treasurer
John Bauer, executive vice president of Nintendo of America
Carl Stork, Microsoft executive
Judith Bigelow, partner in Seattle law firm Preston Gates & Ellis (married to
Stork)
Raymond “Buck” Ferguson, Seattle, a business consultant and former Microsoft executive
Rob Glaser, former Microsoft vice president who founded Internet company RealNetworks
Jeff Raikes, Microsoft senior vice president
Bill Marklyn, former Microsoft project manager
John Stanton, chairman, CEO and director of Western Wireless Corp. and VoiceStream
Wireless
Rufus Lumry, founder of McCaw Cellular and founder of Acorn Ventures
After reading #50’s rant, I am reminded of a quote attributed to Mark Twain, among others: “Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
I remember American owners like George Argyros and Jeff Smulyan. 50, How’d you like the Mariners in those hallowed days?
Two of my least favorite things in baseball:
1. Pitchers that walk people with the bases loaded.
2. When anyone – coaches, players, management, announcers, the media, fans, people commenting in this thread – claims that a team is failing because they don’t care/aren’t trying and could turn it around if they’d just care/try.
And not in that order.
Tom won’t be back.
So when the players are told to take responsibility, Silva’s response is to blame other people. That’s character.
After catching up on the thread, I would like to add to my list of least favorite things:
3. Tom
JAPANESE BASEBALL?! MY GOD! He is probably plotting a second Pearl Harbor right this second!
Get this guy out of here.
Well. The team’s gotten so bad that it’s even some of the fans stink in their postings…
It seems like Silva has learned from Washburn how to throw teammates under the bus.
Am I the only one wishing it was us instead of the Brewers who went to the NL? Sweet relevance, why do you evade us? I think it’s time to start considering an M’s-Diamond Jaxx exhibition. Or play as the New Pilots for the rest of the year.
RE: Silva’s comment.
He could just as easily have been calling out the defensive players who haven’t been backing him up as much as he’s used to. He came to this team as a contact pitcher who relies on others to pick up after him (Dave even says as much after the initial signing), and he’s on the worst defensive team in the league instead.
And there was much rejoicing.
Does anyone have any knowledge of which player made the kindergarten comment?
Also… Silva? Really? You think you should be talking right now? I can only assume that you don’t think averaging two hits per player is a big deal because you’d feel pretty good if you held the other team to that. I can think of 48 million reasons you should try to fly under the radar right now.
The AP article did end with a nice note:
“The home crowd, showing no sign of becoming numb from so many poor plays by the Mariners this season, booed yet again as Perlozzo and Betancourt shuffled off the field.”
When the players suck, we boo. We commiserate on this blog about the bad FO and we demand better. What we say is harsh. Professional sports should capable of harshness too.
Contrast: I read the AP article, then saw the McLaren tirade video. I read some parts over again, like “…expletive-laced tirade that emphasized his team is trying hard but not performing as it should.” I can’t put my finger on it, but that sentence, the look on his face, the f-bombs that missed the target…there’s still this apologetic, meek tone, and a disconnected, hollowness about the whole act.
Yes, as someone pointed out, it’s fair to put McLaren 3rd on the list of blame. But it’s never been clearer after today that McLaren is no leader of men.
I can’t remember who said blame goes all the way down to the batboys on a comment last night, but I’d like them to imagine being one of those kids in the clubhouse tonight. $8.07/hr never seemed so little.
Yeah, but they’ll be getting free beers for this story for years.
I was at the game today, and I really didn’t notice any booing after the play. There is also a mention of Betancourt slowing down rounding second, with the apparent implication that Betancourt didn’t hustle. If so, that’s garbage…Betancourt slowed down very slightly to pick up where the ball was and hustled all the way to the plate. Perlozzo clearly was sending him, which wasn’t a bad gamble considering Garret Anderson’s throwing arm. It just didn’t work out, but not because it was a “bad” decision or Betancourt didn’t hustle. Reporting like that is irresponsible.
Regarding McLaren’s tirade, I was struck by his comment that everyone is “busting their butts”. That phrase doesn’t really jibe with the rest of his venting and makes me wonder if he was really calling his players out or maybe just trying to deflect the questions from his team. Of course, if so, the Bavasi action certainly took care of that.
The Boston series ought to be interesting.
If we’re lucky, he might at least pick up a positive idea from Washed-up and shed a few pounds…
58: I think what he meant was we’d be better off with an owner that “lived” in America. At least I hope that’s what he meant.
If I know my batboys, and I think I do, free beers is half the reason to have the job in the first place. You just hope they’re “playoff glory” or “Piniella told me he caught Buhner topping off the road clubhouse shampoo bottles with piss” -type stories that earn them for you down the road. “The time I held Raul Ibanez as he wept into his Cystal Light” story is a little less dramatic, and probably worth no more than a Bud Light with lime.
I actually give Mac a sliver of credit back with that particular comment, too, don. The idea that today’s nonsense was just a desperate tactic, rather than a sincere belief that the players weren’t trying is so much more palatable.
If there is any chance that Mac is fighting Bavasi and Armstrong on the issue, it makes me like him more and them less.
Bavasi: “I spent a lot of money on this here pig. I picked it out myself so I know I made a good deal. Everyone I know told me that when I made a good deal, pigs would fly. Why isn’t this pig flying?”
Mac: “It looks like a veteran pig, I’m sure it will come around.”
Silva: “I think the pig is being selfish. It rolls around in the mud a couple times and considers that a good day.”
Bavasi: “Look pig, I spent a lot of money on you. You need to sit there in your pen and think about how you’ve let me down. Don’t come out until you’re ready to fly.”
Mac: “Maybe I should yell at the pig.”
Silva: “Mmmmmmmm…pig.”
Wow looks like I missed some drama …
It seems like the Mariners are indeed hitting the bottom of the barrel. I hope that we will hit rock bottom during this year (if we haven’t already done so) so that next season there will be changes.
I’m cheering for Rock Bottom and I have a feeling it will be coming soon. There is immaturity and once again lack of accountability (Steve T should chime in soon) on all levels … and I think the ownership might start to take notice soon. Or at least I hope.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!! *
This has definitely been a great year to give up the season tickets. I feel so much better not having contributed a dime to this stupid, stupid organization…
(*)
Arguably, the difference in today’s game was the respective defense’s. Kenji dropped the strike from Ichiro which would have saved a run (eventually 2) and ended the inning. The Angels nailed Betancourt at the plate in the 6th. Silva wasn’t especially sharp in the first, but pitched quite well after that and deserved better.
Yesterday, Lopez lets a grounder get by him and 2 runs score, followed by Balentien diving feet first for a pop fly in front of him to let another run in. Bedard wasn’t his sharpest, but the defense behind him sucked.
I question the assumption that our starting pitching sucks right now. From my perspective, I think our team defense sucks right now, and I wonder how much better this team would be with a competent defense behind our starters.
The 2001 rotation was Moyer, Garcia, Pineiro, Meche, and P.Abbott. Is that rotation really better than Bedard, Felix, Silva, Washburn, and Batista? I would hypothesize that the defense behind them is a primary culprit behind the starters problems this year. And that’s where I would begin when addressing the problems at hand.
I don’t want to sound snarky here, so please forgive me if this comes across badly at all, but the point about the team’s defense is something we’ve been hammering on all season, and we’ve drawn many comparisons to good M’s defense of the past.
This isn’t a hypothesis, it’s a truth.
Wow.
Hold on, let’s have Raul Ibanez get out his magic pixie dust bottle labeled “chemistry,” poor some on himself, go out and be a good leader, and watch the wins pile up.
smoothdkarr, here’s a thought for you. Who is the grizzled veteran leader on the Tampa Bay Rays? Cliff Floyd? Right. Let’s make the trade!
Talent wins games, not some fake leadership garbage.
a thought addressed by Dave just the other day on KJR….
is he available in the draft tomorrow?
Tom is a fool, but even assuming he could et his wish…who exactly would fall into this category?
Amercian Born
Deep Pockets
NO ties to a corporation
I think by default you almost have to be tied to a corporation to have deep pocekts.
Tom is a fool, but even assuming he could get his wish…who exactly would fall into this category?
Amercian Born
Deep Pockets
NO ties to a corporation
I think by default you almost have to be tied to a corporation to have deep pocekts.
Thanks DMZ.
Derek, I actually believe it to be the truth as well, but we both know that it’s hard to prove the impact that defense has on pitching, plus, I was trying to be a little humble by calling it a hypothesis!
I know that the team defense has been discussed frequently on this site. I would be interested to hear from you who you think contributes positively to the team defense right now…..my “observations” tell me that Ichiro and Beltre are definitely plusses in the defense department, and Raul is hopeless in LF, not because he’s not trying but because he’s too old to move very fast.
I tend to believe that Sexson and Lopez has below average range, and that Betancourt is an average shortstop at best. I like Reed in the outfield, and I am not impressed with Balentien at all so far.
Do you agree with these observations, or where would you differ? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.
Yup. And that is the single biggest thing I hold against Mac… how can he have been so convinced this defense was going to be a strength? He keeps repeating that. And every time I imagine his agent whispering “Stop saying that!” in his ear.
Obviously, the personnel moves are the bigger problem, but Mac keeps begging to be included in that fiasco of judgment.
He’s like a VP at Coca Cola who keeps piping up at board meetings at how much he loved New Coke. Crazy.
I don’t think there is much more than can be said about this 2008 team. It is probably the most disappointing season I’ve seen with my own eyes. Every player and fan has a look on their face like they just saw their dog get hit by a car.
Solution: Don’t let Tom post again. Fire Bavasi.
MSB – ROCK BOTTOM will only cost you a 30 pack of Miller Light.
For the record, I like it when players get two hits a game.
Secondly, the laziness/not trying/not caring issue is most applicable to the FO. They don’t do the hard, tough things like insert a cheap unproven player into the rotation (unlike Oakland). They have not patience for youngsters (unlike the Rays). They either refuse to sift through or ignore “complicated” stats such as FIP (unlike many organizations).
They do the laziest thing imaginable, throw a giant wad of cash at marginal vets who have had decent past success. (And I don’t blame the Silvas, Washburns, or Sexsons for taking the money. They are ineffective players, they are not dumb.)
If Armstrong, Bavasi, and the rest actually “buckled down” and tried hard to understand why they have failed and what they need to do, the M’s would be better off. But that is too hard. They simply look at the back of the players’ baseball cards.
He’s hoping for Mark Cuban. Which would be an improvement over Lincoln, but he is not the answer. Do we really want another amateur GM in charge, like the Redskins have in Football? Better to have an owner that looks to find effective and knowledgeable leadership in the FO and works to make the organization a successful one at all levels.
When asked late Tuesday night what needs to be done, Suzuki sounded defeated.
“I don’t think at this point it is even worth it to answer that question,” the $90 million outfielder and franchise cornerstone said through an interpreter.
What an awful leader. Defeated. Dejected. Treated like a child by his general manager. That was HIS chance to wave his chemistry wand and turn this ship around.
With that, I’m passing out. Let me awaken to better news, please.
Enough about the owners already. Is there anything less productive than wishing we could get Mark Cuban to buy the team? What kind of discussion is that going to result in?
Why is everyone so down? I mean…if we win EVERY game against the Angels for the rest of the season, we’d only be 5 1/2 out! We’re right there!
BTW…Tom…Take it easy, Champ. Why don’t you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while…
Well, you’re listening to a bunch of desperate men, and it’s a universal truth that we say the stupidest things when we’re grasping at straws. Of course the players are doing the best they can, but, with a few notable exceptions, they’re replacement-level players (or worse). And for anybody with a modicum of skill at interpreting baseball statistics, a sorry season was predictable, although to be fair it’s been even worse than the numbers might have suggested. So ultimately, it’s Bavasi’s fault, as he was primarily responsible for this turd of a roster, so he must go. McLaren doesn’t understand lineup construction, among his many faults, and must go. With any luck, Armstrong will go to, but I’m not holding my breath. The proven veterans on the team (Sexson, Vidro, Cairo et al) should be released forthwith, and we start playing for 2020. Or whatever.
Found this gem on the replies to Baker’s Blog, M’s FO is that you?
Two comments on the Silva comment:
One, don’t complain about the offense when you put the team into a first inning seven-run hole, and they actually fight back to within striking distance, like last Friday night. No team in baseball can win from that deficit. And anyone who watched that inning knows it wasn’t defense that was the problem, and Dickey’s performance shows it wasn’t that the Tigers (who were shutout the next night after all) were that hot. So Silva should have kept his piehole shut.
Two, nonetheless, there is a kernel of truth to what he said. A number of times this season, it has seemed like the M’s, after scoring a bunch early, just mail it in offensively, as though getting four runs is their goal and they don’t want to have long at-bats or hit smart, but just get in their swings the rest of the way. Frankly, this whole “you’re likely to see just one good pitch each at-bat” crap, which wasn’t the philosophy of the Boston Red Sox in 2007, or the Mariners in 2001, or the Yankees under Torre or the A’s this decade, is just a losing baseball strategy. Good hitters make good pitchers throw them pitches they can hit. Impatient or guess hitters strike out or ground out weakly or hit cans of corn. The soft underbelly of this lineup strikes out, grounds out weakly or hits cans of corn. That is organizational weakness by getting the wrong players in and then coaching them the wrong way.
Does anyone else feel like they are watching an alchoholic brother destroying his life and about to hit bottom? Thank god for rehab centers. Only if there was a baseball rehab center…
About Ichiro!, you can’t blame him for not being a leader and you can’t say he isn’t worth the money he is paid. He brings so much income and intrest to the team. He is the one true superstar on the team, and he brings international attention to the team that no other team gets. Not even Boston with Dice-k.
Time for a house cleaning and to get some kids in there that don’t care about winning yet. We just need some guys who are happy to be there for the rest of the year so maybe we would have a shot at a winner next year. We have about 5-6 guys to build a good team around. Ichiro!, Lopez, Felix, Morrow, Beltre, and maybe one or two others. The rest, whatever.
It’s getting time to start thinking about an extension for Beltre and some start time for Morrow. And, if Bedard wants a 2-3 year extension, if reasonably priced, I would be ok with that too. But I don’t see that being realistic. I like him less now as an M than when he was an O. It’s like that hot chick you see at the bar, but when you talk to her, not so good.
Somebody needs to tell Bill Bavasi to sit down and take full responsibility for having the worst record in baseball despite having $117 million to spend.
I liked Bill Bavasi a lot when I heard him at the USSM event a couple years ago, and I’ve always agreed with the assertion that despite his flaws he was a classy and well-intentioned human being. But this is a classless move. It’s public humiliation and I can’t see what purpose it serves besides making him feel better about how exceedingly poorly he did his job.
I hope Sexson left because he refused to be a part of it, and I wish other players did the same. The M’s have been depressing to watch, depressing to read about and depressing to love. Now they’ve even managed to depress me over the nature of humanity.
I work in a performance based environment. Every Saturday morning we have an hour long meeting where the manager points his finger and explains how terrible we all are at our job. Frequently, there is a bit of swearing and even our personal lives are brought up. Yup, it sucks. You know how it makes me feel and how it effects my performance? It pisses me off and makes me want to do worse just to spite him. The only reason I don’t is because it would effect my pay too much. Now, if I was guaranteed a huge income despite my performance!!! Screw managment, I’m gonna try my best to make him look bad. I am sure most of the players felt the same way today. I am sure a good chunk of them where looking back at Bill and thinking, “this is your fault jerk.” Thats pretty much what I always think.
This team is not even worthy of a paper bag over my head. Never in the past have I left a game after the first inning down 3-0. I did today and I won’t be back the rest of this year.
Keep Ichiro, Felix, Beltre and Morrow. Get rid of the rest and start over. Shoot, why not bring Tacoma on up here. They can’t do any worse than this overpaid bunch.
Driving this weekend, I had XM on and heard a promo for the Billy Ripken show (not sure what the name really is). Anyway, Ripken was saying something like “some guy with a pen calls someone a leader cause he’s out waving the pompoms when things are going good. Having been in the clubhouse, I can tell you most of the time those guys get on your nerves.”
I can’t believe, really just can’t believe, the “sit in front of your locker and take responsibility” crap. In general, though I question his baseball sense, I have a lot of respect for Bavasi as a person, but that stunt lowered him a notch or two in my eyes. I hope to hear him apologize for it soon – he’s under a lot of stress and I can certainly understand a momentary lapse of judgement. But he really does need to apologize to the players, they are not children.
I heard that Sexson was the only player who didn’t do it – well, good for him. He can’t be real happy with how the last couple of years have gone, and no matter how much he’s struggled, no matter if the fans were booing him or if he was being benched for Miguel Cairo, I’ve never heard him say a bad thing about a teammate or point fingers anywhere except himself.
And then there was this part from the PI:
Right. I’ve been in dysfunctional organizations. Losing your job in an organzation that can’t evaluate talent to save it’s ass is a mark of pride, not embarrassment. Being benched by a team that bats Vidro 4th and DFAs Norton and Baek but keeps Cairo and Washburn, is frankly nothing to be ashamed of. Roster and playing time decisions on this team might as well be done with a dart board. Or a pachinko machine.
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How the hell are you supposed to fear for your job when you have a guaranteed contract? Oh no, don’t fire me! I’ll make 10 million a year doing nothing. More idiocy by the front office.
Speaking of office..wasn’t it Office Space that had the line, “The only incentive I have for doing my job is so management doesn’t hassle me…well that and being fired, but you know what, that’ll only get you to work so hard.”
Ahmen, RustyJohn. i would love to spend the rest of the summer fishing rather than working.
Maybe it’s time to start a letter writing campaign to Paul Allen. The Blazers have had their issues but the Seahawks’ front office seems like a pretty well-oiled machine to me.
Maybe it’s time to start a letter writing campaign to Paul Allen. The Blazers have had their issues but the Seahawks’ front office seems like a pretty well-oiled machine to me.
Doesn’t MLB have a prohibition
against owning both an NFL and MLB team?
Or do you propose that Allen sell the Seahawks ?
Guaranteed contracts are the way things are done in MLB. It’s not like the [MARINERS ITS MARINERS NO APOSTROPHE ARRGGHHHH] are the only organization doing this. I don’t like guaranteed contracts but the rules apply to all teams in the Majors.
I work in a performance based environment.
Fine. But is your performance quantified and recorded for all time? Can anybody who knows how to spell your name look up exactly how you did your job on any given day? Are your performances totalled at the end of the year, added to your career totals, and compared to all your peers who have ever done your job over the last hundred+ years? If you do really, really well over the course of your career, is there a place that thousands of people visit every year where they’ll put up a plaque with your likeness and accomplishments? In short, are you working for just a paycheck, or are there larger forces at work that might cause you to strive and take pride in your performance even on the worst days, and the worst years?
But apostrophe and castastrophe are so close. And clearly the catastrophe key is stuck in the down position on Bavasi’s keyboard.
This moderator was so blinded by no-apostrophe rage that he left one out of “it’s.”
I find very interesting that after McLaren went off on his tirade, Bavasi tells the press that “he could have said that a month ago.”
Why in the world is Bavasi telling the press that? Why did he have to make it public? And why is he saying that a month after he supposedly wanted to McLaren to drop a bunch of F-bombs to give the illusion that things are going to change around here, %&#*$^@&*!
While Bavasi may have been a nice guy except for that bumbling idiocy that is his baseball managing, I think he’s finally getting to the point where he has to throw McLaren under the bus to save his job.
This may bode well for the purging of the front office (Bill does it, then Chuck does it, etc.) but it makes Bavasi even more of a delusional jerk still running the team. Not only do the players have to “take responsibility” for his mess but geez, guys, Mac could have said that a month ago and that’s the real problem here! Swear up a storm earlier in the season, Johnny! Come on!(™GOB, Arrested Development)
If Bavasi, McLaren, and the Mariners players think the press here in Seattle being a witness to all this dysfunction is burdensome, just wait ’til they get to Boston. Reading some of the articles in the Boston Herald and the Globe online ought to be interesting, to say the least. They usually are brutal to their own hometown team if that team is anything but spectacular — they won’t hold anything back writing about the Mariners…
Blatant appeals to racism aside, does anyone really want an extremely hands-on owner, such as Charles O. Finley?
Fine. But is your performance quantified and recorded for all time? Can anybody who knows how to spell your name look up exactly how you did your job on any given day?
Yes, ever week numbers are sent out to everyone in the company to show every employees performance for that period. It also shows your pay and where you rank among the other 175+ employees of the company. But I think you missed the point. The point is it doesn’t help anyone to point fingers of blame at them. It helps to coach them to do a better job. This stunt was very unperductive and won’t help the moral of the club one bit.
The events of the last few days have been extremely depressing. The solution to having such a terrible team is not for the management to create a unprofessional environment where even the good players feel demeaned and unappreciated. It’s to take a more sensible approach to roster construction.
Can we start a thread on some intelligent moves that the team could take to improve the defense? The most obvious moves are to move Ibanez from LF to DH, play Reed regularly, and find a better first baseman. However, the defensive problems go deeper than just LF and 1B.