Game 70, Marlins at Mariners
DMZ · June 16, 2008 at 5:10 pm · Filed Under Mariners
Andrew Miller (billed as “hard throwing” during in-game promos though his fastball is way off) versus Carlos Silva (who does not have a fastball). 7:10.
Same old tilt-a-whirl: Vidro is at #3, Beltre at #4, Ibanez at #5. Ichiro to right, Bloomquist starts in center.
We have a .219 no-power hitter in our #3 spot.
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Uh, holy crack-addled insanity, Mac has gone completely off his meds and into weeds:
What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuckity fuck?
I mean, OK, we know there’s a log jam and we need Clement in the lineup. And, uh, wait. What was I talking about again?
Ummm Willie in CF and Ichiro in RF. McLaren must be pissed he didn’t get fired to get out of this mess.
I can’t wait for Wlad’s CF audition.
Baker, after talking to Mac about the Ichiro move. What the hell–putting a smile on Ichiro’s face might be the most productive thing Mac does all season.
Wait, I got it, Clement is the M’s new center fielder. Mac knows he’s going to be fired at the end of the season but probably not before, so he’s just throwing darts.
Ichiro’s moving back to RF full time.
We’re into uncharted waters here folks. Anything can happen, anytime. That should at least keep us tuning in for what is, on paper, a completely lost season. Between organizational meltdown and completely random acts by people unfettered by worries about job security or institutional mores, this could be one crazy, long summer. I’m buttering the popcorn as we speak.
Yeah I read that. But the only logical reason I can think of for a manager to not put their OF who covers the most ground in CF is that they want to get fired. Now granted I wasn’t in the clubhouse, if Ichiro honestly said, hey Mac, I have more fun playing RF, then I’m totally ok with it seeing as this season is tanked. But any other reason is ridiculous.
Ichiro! not in CF will make watching Raul more, uh, entertaining.
This season just got incredibly entertaining. Here’s hoping we see Ich! come out of the bullpen to do some relief work at some point this season.
Oh crap, I fear some kind of crazy-ass three-way deal where the Indians send CC Sabathia to the Yankees to take over for the injured Wang, the M’s send Lopez+Balentien to the Indians, and the Mariners end up with Melky Cabrera.
Ichiro is much better suited to RF than CF. If we’re going to acquire a centerfielder shortly, then it makes sense… if not… well we need all the help we can get if we’re going to finish atop the Strasburg standings.
Miller got up to 98mph in his last start against the Phillies, which was an absolute gem of a game.
In all seriousness, what makes him better suited to CF?
KJR reports Kenji was taling ground balls at first base today.
Can it be…. Can we hope?
We’re going to be sellers in the trade season, so it doesn’t seem likely we’ll get a state-of-the-art CF.
The only thing that will further piss me off about this season is if we muck around and end up not quite worst, but say, 5th or 6th worst.
Well, with Silva being the starter there’s a good chance we’re going to get to see Morrow and Miller go head to head in the battle of the 1st round draft picks.
We’re going to be sellers in the trade season, so it doesn’t seem likely we’ll get a state-of-the-art CF.
Yeah, but at the press conference Lincoln said they might actually be buyers at the trade deadline, to build towards the future.
No, I don’t really believe it either, but that’s what the guy said.
Richie Sexson, center fielder?
I have no idea what the heck is going to happen, at this point.
I might like a 1B conversion for Kenji a lot more than Clement, if he’s willing.
This game thread is going to be a party. I’ve already started drinking, and we’re a good 90 minutes from first pitch.
Would you believe… they are setting up to have Raul in center. With his fantastic defense, veteran grit and more power than the average center fielder, we’ll be unstoppable.
Would you believe… Ichiro! in right and Reed in left will cover Raul’s deficiencies on both sides. And that will solve our most important problems.
Would you believe… Our lineup has too much power in the corner positions and DH, so we have to put a superlative singles hitter in a corner outfield spot to make way for another singles hitter in CF.
Wait, by what metric is Ichiro more suited to RF than CF? Isn’t really rangy fielder who catches almost everything that touches his glove and has crazy speed the ideal CF?
I would never recommend reading the comments on Baker’s blog, but it’s pretty funny that the anti-Ichiro faction is out in full force tonight. Yup, that’s our problem, trade the All-Star and the team will be instantly better. I occasionally skim through the insanity just to remind myself that not everyone is logical. Or sane.
I read some of Baker’s blog today also. Lots of people thought that more Bloomquist was the answer. A reminder that many fans don’t know what they’re talking about.
Ichiro is a league-average CF in terms of defense, but better than average offense. In RF he is better than average defense, but not as exceptional offensively.
I’m fine with Ichiro in RF or LF if Reed or someone comparably rangy is in CF. But not any other way. Bloomquist is not a centerfielder.
I’m sorry, but Kenji at 1st makes no sense. Even at his best hitting year, he only did 780. Great for a catcher, but pretty terrible for a first baseman. He’d be lucky to be a replacement level first baseman in my opinion.
Because he’s slow afoot and needs to get better vision on the strike zone, maybe we’ll see Big Sexie perhaps getting some time behind the plate since everyone else and their red-headed cousin have been taking grounders at first base. Just imagine, he’d be the biggest target ever!
#25
Ichiro’s offense is/should be the same regardless of where he plays. So stating he’s better or worse offensively at one position or another is sort of pointless unless you are postulating a trade. He’s here for his offense.
My question is why was Ichiro at CF talked up so much here on USSM if he is ONLY a league average CF? Someone, was it DMZ? suggested Ichiro was better than League average early in the year.
I think I may have missed the boat somewhere here, but isn’t Reed a better choice in CF than Bloomquist? Why is WFB “auditioning” at CF? Are we going to give him a starting job? Isn’t it easier to find a replacement RF than a replacement CF?
I think it’s safe to say NOTHING will surprise me at this point.
This is classic McLaren. Leave the broken problems (leftfielder can’t field, no offense at first base) to fester and fix something that isn’t a problem.
OK, Mac’s zaniness doesn’t bug me as much today as it would have a few days ago. But, this again points to how crucial this GM hire really is. Any hire that allows this kind of thinking and behavior to continue will be a disaster.
The points Derek raises in his pitch to Antonetti, though, remind me that there are many reasons to be optimistic about the Mariners’ future, as long as it doesn’t include Mac.
And why, oh why, do I have this sinking feeling that Ichiro or Felix or Beltre or someone good is going to be traded soon?
Ichiro’s offense is/should be the same regardless of where he plays.
But his value varies depending on where he plays, because you’re comparing him to his peers, and they’re different at different positions. Clement is worth a lot more as a catcher than a 1B/DH, because there are lots of slugging DB/1Bs (just not on this team) but not so many catchers. Likewise, your corner outfielders tend to be stronger offensively and not as good defensively. So compared to them, Ichiro in RF has less offense and more defense; in CF, compared to other CFs who tend to be among the best defensive athletes on their teams, it’s the opposite.
If Bill Krueger talks about Jarrod Washburn not getting run support one more time, I may throw my TV.
Finally! We figure out how Mac puts together lineups: He closes his eyes and wherever the players are in his imagination with his eyes closed, that’s where they play. Genius!
Mac says that when he closes his eyes, he just sees #51 in Right Field…and that he had “a love affair with the fans out there”…
…because that’s a solid basis for a managerial decision.
AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!
(For the record, I’m not upset by Ichiro moving to RF–if there’s a good reason to make that move…but doing so because you DREAMED it?!?! )
I do not think that an interim GM is going to be doing any trades. I think what we have is what we have. They may cut someone that is about it.
#33
I fully understand what you said, but unless or until you are replacing Ichiro with a trade, it makes no sense to suggest that offensively the same player is worth LESS in left than in center.
Ichiro is not being considered for trade.
He’s not leaving.
Therefore, that analysis model is useless.
The only comparison that is valid is whether Ichiro is better/worse defensivly than Wlad.
Because even if the M’s snag a center fielder, Wlad is the one with his head on the block, not Ichiro.
Now if you are willing to consider trading Ichiro for a center fielder super-star, then I agree your analysis makes sense.
What is difficult to understand about considering a player’s offensive value within the context of the available pool of talent at the position he plays?
Uh, did I miss the part where the fans in CF don’t like Ichiro!.
As for trades, we don’t have that many chips to trade with (Sexson? Vidro?). I would think Felix would stay because he’s cheap, and I can’t imagine trading Ichiro!, or Kenji with his extension. But Beltre is a player who wouldn’t be undervalued everywhere.
Permanent…for now. That alone says so much about the organization.
At least Bloomquist isn’t batting 2nd… If he was player/manager I wonder where he would put himself in the lineup. I think maybe he’d be the starting shortstop and bat leadoff.
I just sent Dave my first draft of the GM candidate list. There are just under 20 names on it.
Silva is moving at an awfully fast pace. IS he trying to burn carbs?
To jsa @38
Welcome to a brave new world! This is where your conventional way of thinking about baseball is going to change…
It isn’t that Ichiro’s offense changes–what changes is how you look at Ichiro’s offense.
The conventional way of looking at baseball might look at a player’s batting average or RBI’s and say “there, that’s what we’re adding to our team.” That’s what would the type of thinking that would lead a front office to add someone like Jose Vidro to the team as a DH.
However, what those who participate on this site have come to realize is that this isn’t a particularly effective way of evaluating talent. More effective would be to think of Jose Vidro as compared to what you’d expect to get out of your DH–and value him as being better or worse than what you might get from someone else. This way of thinking suggests that Vidro is a horrible DH (when you consider how much we’re paying for such little power.)
So, back to Ichiro…it isn’t that his offense changes–it’s the comparison of what you’d expect from people in his position. And the expectations ARE different for RFs than CFs.
And that change in thinking is what we’re all hoping the new Mariners GM will embrace.
DMZ
I was going to send him mine too.
1. Ichiro!
2. Mr. Suzuki
3. Our Center fielder for the first 69 games.
4. Our current Right Fielder.
…
This is becoming a comedy. Any screen writers out there? Perhaps something like “The Bad News Mariners” — but with not such a happy ending?
BTW, as I mentioned last night, Ichiro has been playing not only CF but 1/2 of LF too. Perhaps moving him to RF will smack “RI” in the face with the fact of … you can’t play in the field anymore.
I’m going to have to go get my buttered popcorn too. Suddenly things have gotten interesting.
Is that Valle? We get Valle for this game? That is great, because I am all insighted out today
Bluh. Spent the day sick in bed. Don’t know if I have the energy for a Silva game.
Reed/Johjima would have made that play.
Geez, before I could finish that post we now already have allowed 2 men on base (ugh, change that to 1 scored and still 2 men on base).
Hey their DH hits. No fair.
In a shocking discovery, the M’s find that firing a GM does not un-suck a pitcher.
This is going to get uggla in a hurry!
Balantien would have…oh, no…actually, he probably wouldn’t have.
Dancing clowns, everyone. Yeah.
Sorry to hear that Lauren. On the other hand, fever dreams may actually be the only way this team makes any sense. Plus if you pass out, you won’t really be missing anything. As the drunks around here have repeatedly demonstrated.
It already looks like we are going to get spanked (who would have thunk?) … chowing down on my buttered popcorn watching this train wreck.
OMG, did I just hear something about being afraid of clowns?
#36
Yes, when I heard the comment about Mac “closing his eyes”… I was just stunned. OK, so maybe he just doesn’t know how to express himself in an interview. That’s possible, I guess. But if he really thinks that way, I’ve got to ask myself, where the hell do they find these guys?
I honestly had no idea that Luis Gonzalez was still in baseball prior to seeing him in the Marlins’ lineup tonight. Ever since I quit playing fantasy ball, I pay so little attention to the NL, it’s comical.
The fans & blogs are energized but the team still sucks…
I was hoping for some team energy, we’ll see…
59 –
I was stunned but for different reasons.
Eyes must be open to be closed.
Ichiro was so happy to be back in RF again that he forgot to swing.
Honest question, is Antonetti going to see your pitch to him?
And how soon?
Are Jed Hoyer, Ben Cherington or Brian O’Halloran on your GM list?
61: “I was hoping for some team energy, we’ll see” …
I think that’s the philosophy Howard and crowd was hoping for too. :rolleyes:
Mac has made quite clear that he doesn’t know how to express himself in an interview.
Well, it doesn’t matter if he sees it or not if he doesn’t get an interview request.
I think this is as much about building a groundswell that gets the traditional media talking about it, which might cause Armstrong and Lincoln to notice it. Then again, Lincoln “is not oblivious to the blogs” so it might work directly.
Bavasi speaks to the AP:
True, though I’m just not convinced that “not oblivious to the blogs” means anything more than “I heard my grandkids talking about them just the other day. They’re the ones on the interweb, right?”
Brian Bannister for Pitcher/GM. He’s not a good pitcher, but would be a fresh voice. When Sexson misplays a ball he can look at him from the mound and yell, “DFA!”
70: More like the “inter-thingy-whatever-it-does-web-something-or-whatever”.
Another Sexsy Single!
69… you know, if a manager treated me that way, and I knew his job was on the line… well, it might not inspire me to play as hard as I could, you know?
Here is a tip for all of you fantasy players out there… Just add the pitcher that is slated to start against the M’s everyday. Since the M’s can’t score more then 2 runs (sometimes unearned) and really don’t walk much you’ll see some great results!
‘It’s a series of tubes!’
If you know that all Sexson will do is hit an occasional single with his new “open stance.” why bat him 6th? I hate the fact that we play him at all, but now more then ever why 6th???
Beer of the evening is “Indica” IPA from Lost Coast Brewery, while I watch my first game in a long while without Bavasi as GM. Having met him once, he’s a guy though that I’d gladly have a beer with on the back porch.
At least we’ll have some web gems tonight.
Jeez, Jim, you know the score with AP material right now.
Lincoln may not be up on the latest stats but I don’t buy him not knowing computers. He did work for Nintendo.
Not even Bloomquist … ummmm … wait.
That hit by Bloomers won’t do anything though… because not EVEN Bloomquist can help the Mariners.
Did McLaren even notice that Ichiro had a better year in 2007 than he did in 2006?
More fun! Yay!
Considering when he last worked at Nintendo … as #76 mentioned, it wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t consider the “Internet” much more than “a series of tubes”.
Gotta love the AP: a business entirely founded on taking other people’s work, rewriting it, making money off it, and not giving them a penny, having the gall to send bullying takedown notices to weblogs quoting their blessed copyrighted material.
I think we need to get that Vidro get a long term contract before it’s too late!
First, I try not to exaggerate except for humor.
Second, today’s outrage is bound to be more vivid than yesterday’s.
Third, I understand that the effect of a manager on a team’s play is probably a lot less than we think it is.
But. I still cannot remember ever being so amazed by a manager or coach’s ineptitude as I am by McLaren’s on a daily basis.
I wonder if Bavasi had actually been reining him in? If moving Ichiro back to right field is the kind of move McLaren would have been making all along if only he’d had the freedom to do so?
Oh god, not the unrally fries.
I like this new not swinging strategy we have this inning.
scraps: Someday, and maybe not that far from now, some author for Baseball Prospectus or the Hardball Times or another organization is going to use 2008 John McLaren as as a test case for just how much worse a manager can make a team.
Sexson will screw it up!
Willie would have had that…
I take that back… wow another single… Whhhheeeee!
Not even Bloomquist can drive in a run.
Typical.
Bases loaded no outs and we get 1 run! Maybe this team is improving.
I hear the arguments that Ichiro’s PERCEIVED offensive value as a CF may not be on par with folks like Hamilton/Beltran/90s Griffey/etc., but none of that matters until you ACTUALLY have someone of that caliber on your roster. And at this instant, we don’t know… so I fail to see the logic of moving your fastest player with the best arm and seven gold gloves on his mantle — one of which he won at CF — until someone more “valuable” arrives.
Baker has a few comments from Lincoln on Kenji’s contract.
Typical.
Is is just me, or does Lopez running remind anyone else of Ron Cey?
Looks like Silva will get an early start on the buffet.
“Yaay, Silva is leaving the game! Hooray!”
NOW I get it! The M’s vaunted ’statistical analysts’ are actually two ex game-testers for Nintendo, circa 2000. They vigorously supported the trade for Vidro based on the stats he put up on the Nintendo version of MLB 2001.
It’s not exactly that the Mariners are interesting this year, it’s just that every game they have some new twist on losing.
I wonder if their solution is blowing on the players when they aren’t performing.
Actually thought Silva had settled down nicely…
Play was very close..
Guess you jus can’t tell the ump to go fuck himself…
Family game and all.
Dead link in No. 99.
Sorry, try this.
That certainly made me read it twice.
I wonder how PECOTA might adjust to MLB a line of .650/.900/.2.500 (on ‘rookie’ settings)?
Actually, Baker’s put up a summary:
Lincoln, of course said they expected and expect Kenji to go back to his historical norms. I couldn’t understand the last few seconds of the tape (gads, that dates me–I mean audio clip).
I love how it looks like Ichiro just shoved their third baseman to the ground after that steal.
good job Vidro and Beltre!!!
No Question About It — A Tribute To Mike Blowers: 8:37 pm
I’m now almost 100% certain that if you green lighted Ichiro to steal home everytime he’s on 3rd with less then 2 outs, he would score more often then letting these jokers bat him in.
1st to 3rd on a single to right field.
Left field!!!
Honestly, this ‘accountability’ meme of Baker’s this season is getting old.
118 – A lot of things this season are getting old. Every time I hear our announcers say things like “we don’t know what the problem is.” and “everyone expected our team to contend” it makes me want to pull out my hair.
RallyFried, we’ve been saying (well, yelling at the TV) the same thing for the last month. Be fun to watch.
As for “getting tired of” statements, I’m with Jeff Nye and the “Washburn doesn’t get any run support” rap. Is there some NL GM who doesn’t know anything about pitching stats who watches Bill Krueger and now wants Wash for his very own? If so, I withdraw my objection. And watch the pigs fly past my window.
Surely there must be a dumb NL GM who wants Washburn AND Sexson. And maybe Vidro.
So who is going to get the 1 run to reach the M’s standard operating procedure of 2 runs?
I’m calling Ibanez’s solo shot in the bottom of the 8th.
Watch out for the ball, Richie…
Bavasi was hired already?
McLaren moving Ichiro to RF, having Kenji take ground balls at 1B, and auditioning every warm body in the farm system for CF are all part of McLaren’s brilliant, but misunderstood, stratergy. McLaren understands that since the M’s … uh suck, something needs to be done to pique fan interest in coming out for games.
What better way than having crazy lineup changes. Forget about Bobblehead promotions or Felix Day.
Everyday is Wacky Mariner Lineup Day. That’s Mojo Rising!
Joh showed him that at BP today…
And, of course, this is giving me nightmares. These clowns think they know baseball?
killer_ewok18 — Watch out for the ball, Richie…
Yeah, WTF? Anyone else know what he was reacting to? It’s not like Beltre was firing it to him.
I’m waiting for the Vidro/Sexson/Johjima OF.
hrm, maybe I don’t understand, but the strategy of walking a batter to face a guy with a .972 OPS is too advance for me…..
Mac wants Ichiro! to hit somewhere else in the lineup (didn’t say where), but doesn’t have someone to take over the lead off spot. We could have Wacky Mariner Lineup Day 2.0 coming soon to a stadium near you.
I’ve quoted a lot from Baker’s blog today, but I just didn’t want to be the only one who ended up with nightmares from the interwebs.
You have to hand it to Bavasi’s powerful management style. Whether he’s there or not, they’re still playing like Bavasi’s Boys. This kind of tribute from the players kind of makes me mist up.
Have they announced attendance? It looks pretty sad tonight.
I heard a number around 21000.
Wow. Hanley Ramirez is really a terrible shortstop. No range, no instincts. That should have been a routine out for Bloomquist.
136… wow, even the Nats have better attendance than the Ms.
137… that’s Hedley!
Surely there must be a dumb NL GM who wants Washburn AND Sexson. And maybe Vidro
Sabean could probably be persuaded to take at least one of them. Bavasi considered him a “model” GM after all.
Gotta love the AP: a business entirely founded on taking other people’s work, rewriting it, making money off it, and not giving them a penny, having the gall to send bullying takedown notices to weblogs quoting their blessed copyrighted material.
Uh, what? I know journos who used to write for them. They employ a bunch of reporters and photographers to generate content, and they definitely pay them. Not enough, arguably, but they’re hardly stealing other people’s work. (They do use the content from their member newspapers, but that’s part of the co-op deal since those papers collectively own the AP).
Did Sims just say, ‘Look between Silva’s legs and you see Richie with his balls?’
“…and he’s a veteran.”
Valle’s final item on a list of Batista’s immense virtues as a pitcher.
This year’s attendance is down a bit from last year. My guess is there are some very unhappy season ticket holders who bought on the belief that Bedard would take us to the Promised Land, or the numbers would be worse for this year.
Average (36 dates): 28,853
2007 average (36 dates): 30,177
I’m glad they are bringing Morrow in for the save.
The only reason the Marlins should fear the Mariners is that they could possibly be rabid.
Why am I still watching this?
NEW SLOGAN: Two Out Single, So What?
Fun “in game” stat M’s haven’t had an extra base hit in 20 innings!
These guys look way too young to be beating us grizzled vets!
Attendance may be down a little so far this year, but I’ll bet that it’ll go down by a lot more in the second half, and I’d bet that season ticket sales for next season are going to go down a lot.
On the other hand, payroll will be reduced substantially next year too, so the club will be able to absorb diminishing ticket sales for awhile.
144, yes, count me in the disgruntled bunch.
Can’t see me buying season tickets next year with out a drastic price reduction and a totally new team.
Morrow is so good. I really hope he gets stretched out either here, in Tacoma, or in West Tennessee. It would be a shame to waste a talent like that in the bullpen.
I don’t know if Morrow will be any good as a starter, but I cling to the hope that a new regime will let everyone find out soon.
Lee Pelekoudas: 0-1.
That high I felt after hearing the news this afternoon? Yeah, that is pretty much gone. God this team is a trainwreck.
Another game in which the opponent scores more runs in the first inning than the M’s can score in 9. I peruse the batting averages of our 3-8 hitters after the game tonight and see .215, .225, .263, .218, .227, .189.
By the way, Brad Wilkerson remains tied for 6th on the team with 10 BB’s, and he would rank 2nd on the team in OBP based on his Mariner’s stats. What an offense. It certainly is offensive.
They sent Balentien down? This has gotta be a joke, right?
FSN confirmation, Wlad is heading back to Tacoma…which I don’t have too much of a problem with. Jeff Clement recalled.
Chuck on KOMO radio right now – MORE BS
Mariners attendance is not merely a function of the team’s expectations. They do a great job of marketing with things like Little League Weekend, and getting towns from Eastern Washington and elsewhere in the Northwest to come in groups. Keeping up attendance when the team sucks is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Softball on KOMO radio – who would guess. Bet he doesn’t take phone calls.
Dear God, they’re playing Bavasi’s “we missed Jose Guillen” speech.
“…we have time now a month and half from the trade deadline to formulate a plan…” WHAT – you don’t have one??? Not even one to start from?
March/April record: 13-15, longest winning streak: 3
May record: 8-20, longest winning streak: 2
June record: 3-11, longest winning streak: 1
Sigh….
To his credit, even Sandmeyer over on KJR stated a little while ago that maybe the Mariners should look at “some of these new-school guys” for GM — including Dave Forst and Chris Antonetti!
Gee, when you hear him thinking outside the box like that, that’s saying something!
Chuck – “we haven’t begun to fight”. Let us all know when that is so we can give a crap again.
Some KJR reporter mentioned Antonetti this afternoon, too. Armstrong said on the KOMO post-game show that his sabermetricians had the Mariners pegged for 89-97 wins before the season.
Hmmm…I wonder what Denny’s parking lot Chuckie hired his so-called “sabermetricians” out of?
Now, some idiot caller on KJR suggested they hire Kevin Kennedy as GM…oy-vay! :O
That should tell you everything you need to know about his so-called sabermetricians.
Exactly.
WOW.
If they really predicted 89-97 (97!) wins, then it sounds an awful lot like the “sabermetricians” followed the amateurish pattern of, “We won 88 games last year, we got a bit better, therefore our record will be a bit better, say by one to eight wins”?
I hope that someone holds Armstrong accountable for this doggerel.