Bavasi and the Randolph firing
One of the things Dave mentioned in the post on Bavasi’s firing was that as much as we disagreed with Bavasi, we’ve always had a lot of respect for the way he did his job and treated people. It showed up in ways that we saw as fans — for instance, they agonized about how best to move away from Bret Boone when Boone was clearly done as a player, going so far as to give him to Minnesota where he’d have a shot at playing time. And it showed up in ways many fans didn’t see — under Bavasi, the M’s were an organization where if you were a AAAA player and there was a chance to get some major league service time with another organization due to injuries or whatnot, they’d release you from your deal and let you go sign somewhere else, with their best wishes.
Bavasi deserves credit for facing the press after his firing (in which he does fire some spicy parting salvos at the players, but he also admitted the towel thing was a bad idea) but moreover, I wanted to point out that in his time here, the M’s never had the kind of issue that other teams have — releases conveyed by text message, coaches fired through intermediaries, all of that. The kind of thing that just happened to Willie Randolph, where he and the coaching staff were sent on a road trip not knowing if Randolph would be managing the next game or if any of them would have jobs in a week, only to be fired… that’s an awful thing to do to someone, no matter what they thought of Randolph’s performance, and it isn’t something I can even imagine happening in the last few years, no matter how bad things got.
I don’t know how much that’s worth to everyone, but it’s worth something.
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According to Buster Olney, the player evaluations Randolph made to executives during closed-door meetings were being leaked directly to the players.
It did seem like Bavasi spoke directly to a specific question about Bedard, and then shortly after that addressed issues about the whole rotation. Bedard does seem to be a bit unique among them, what with the self-mandated pitch count, if that is in fact how his mind is working.
Never heard “white line fever” as a baseball term before. I’ve heard of “triple-deck fear” for jitters when you’re new to the show, but never a generalized term for game-day jitters. Baker looks a little facile by linking to the Grandmaster Flash tune; that obviously brings up unfortunate connotations.
And, uh, with all due respect, Mike Snow (49), Todd Turner is not an example of a university “athletic director.” 😉
Thanks for the Bavasi/Bedard/Brewer question connection. Makes sense.
Mike Snow,
You’re a stud for pointing out the Todd Turner resemblance there. That sort of attitude will take you straight back to “Lovable Losers” land, and I think after tasting a winning atmosphere, many of us couldn’t handle that.
Yes, yes, I know Turner is gone, I just meant that this kind of catering to the best interests of individual players, instead of treating things as strictly business, is closer to the way colleges theoretically deal with athletes. Turner’s comments on the way out the door are a reflection of the concern with college sports becoming too focused on the big business part.
I don’t know anything about Todd Turner. I wasn’t suggesting the MLB is a commune for therapy and I certainly wasn’t talking about catering to anyone. But I think losing and treating people with respect is a false dichotomy.
Perhaps catering was the wrong word. I generally agree with Bavasi’s sense of ethics on things like the Jeff Clement service time issue.
I’m a little less certain when it detracts from the roster management that’s one of his primary responsibilities to get right. Unloading Ben Broussard, or before him Yorvit Torrealba, for really nothing of value, are questionable for me although clearly not the biggest failing here in terms of player evaluation.
A business that is truly professionally run should be able to treat people with respect. That’s fine, and it’s always a balance to mix individual development of employees with serving customers. Bavasi clearly has some management and people skills in the former area, but has now failed abysmally in terms of the business product. With those strengths and weaknesses, I think it’s interesting how they match up with college athletics, where the AD does more to establish the culture but the coach pretty much controls everything that goes to performance.
The other thing nobody’s mentioned about the Randolph firing is that the Mets won his last game (and the first game on the road trip). There is no reason at all for them to have waited that one extra day to make the decision when the information derived from that extra day was in Randolph’s favor
Did you happen to notice how Wilkerson and Norton did in the games immediately before they were released?
Yes, yes, New York is a crucible of pain in which human lives are forged and destroyed
Yes, I saw movie about that once. I think it was called White Line Fever.
Actually, it was The Devil Wears Prada. Which I know nobody here saw unless it was part of some hopeless attempt to make up for some pain they caused their wife/girlfriend.
Unlike my soon-to-be-former company, which let me move out of state with their OK to work remotely, only to call me up on my first day working remotely to let me know that my posisiton was beeing offshored to India.
Hey, I saw that movie too.
Bavasi could be somewhat coldblooded at times too. DFA’ing John Olerud stands out in my mind. I suppose it was kindhearted in a way, as it provided Bucky Jacobson the one and only opportunity in the bigs.
OK, that makes sense. I have a terrible memory (which comes in handy for Mariner games), but with Broussard, I thought they were at the point where he was going to be cut, and BB made the trade instead. Which didn’t really cost the M’s anything, since teams knew he was being cut, but saved Broussard a little embarrassment, and more importantly, landed him on a team close to his home.
On the whole, though, I would not be found in a position to defend BB’s trading abilities or roster construction. I agree he shouldn’t be a GM.
It’s said that managers have a lot less to do with a team’s winning and losing than is generally thought.
The same can be said of GMs and their personnel decisions. These decisions are usually made after consulting with coaches and scouts.
The buck may stop here, but it probably didn’t begin here.
Just as Woodward was convinced that the Mariners needed better relief pitching, Bavasi was convinced that Felix–who was envisioned as the Mariner cornerstone for the next ten or fifteen years–would never develop unless he could spend a couple of years not being the ace of the staff.
So Bavasi went after an ace.
Hey, don’t forget the USSM is home to people of all stripes, including women who like chick flicks.
I hear we even have a token chick!
Although she’s been conspicuously absent of late.
Shouldn’t there be a law that you can’t talk about Todd Turner and the Mariners in the same thread?
doesn’t that set a new meaning for futility?
Hey, it stars Josh Hamilton. To be leading the league in RBI and critically acclaimed movies after what he’s been through . . . wow.
You know, I took your word for how good of a guy Bavasi was. But, the quotes about “white line fever” (who signed those guys and/or kept them on the roster?) and Bedard’s interview skills (again.. who brought him here?) were childish.
For someone who is looked at as classy and all that, I was really disappointed to read those statements.
Take some damn responsibility and go look for your next job. You have the veteran grit now to land one, I’m sure.
I can’t criticize the Mets for firing Randolph on the road, even if it is a “baseball thing”. As far as the “baseball thing” goes, has there been data collected to see when a manager was fired during a season (home or away)? The 3:15AM press release doesn’t seem all that classy, but I have no problem with the firing on the road thing. I guess that’s just me. Is the fired manager really stranded? Does he have to pay for his own plane ticket home? I think they should atleast pay for his return flight home and if not, then it’s pretty bad. We don’t have all the facts. We don’t know what may have been said between Randolph and upper management. Maybe they were going to let him stay until the team got home, but he said or did something that really pissed them off/broke the camels back?? Who knows!??? I certainly don’t have all the details to make a judgement, do you?
vr, Xei
Speaking of Bavasi/Bedard . . . with Bavasi out of the picture does this mean Bedard becomes a legitimate, if not the most logical, trade piece on the Mariners roster? He is signed through 2009 and might be seen as an easy guy to lock up long term if he is at all concerned about his long-term health. Of course, any team that acquires him will also be concerned about his long (and short) term health, but I can’t a imagine why a team like the Yankees wouldn’t make an immediate inquiry. I envision a package involving some mix of Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero with Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy or an even younger arm.
That would be an interesting study. Go look up the last, say, ten years of manager firings, map that out, and report back with results.
The problem with the team isn’t Bedard. It isn’t just this season or last. It has been a consistent inability to find talent commensurate with the payroll. That entire 25 man roster of that Florida team that swept us last weekend makes less than Sexson and Vidro. Their ranking in runs scored in the last 5 years, all the while having one of the top ten payrolls in baseball:
2008 – 27th
2007 – 12th (a fluke)
2006 – 21st
2005 – 22nd
2004 – 25th
and pitching and defense (runs allowed):
2008 – 25th
2007 – 20th
2006 – 17th
2005 – 18th
2004 – 20th
It was the Nationals that swept us last weekend. Florida’s only working on it.
71:
My bad, if I can’t keep track of who is currently sweeping us, what kind of Mariners fan am I?
Psychic?
It’s a natural mistake. D.C. feels like Florida this time of year.
Yes – and Derek didn’t give you are a reference so I will. I believe that manager hirings and firing are included in the data at baseballreference.com. So you don’t even need to search all over the internet or go to a library to get it. After you research it, could you summarize it in a table, and get back to us.
[ot]
Bavasi’s take on Guillen was interesting. I felt that the biggest mistake coming in to the season was effectively exchanging Guillen for the mediocre Wilkerson.
Guillen was a rare Mariner FA signing who didn’t turn to complete garbage (Spiezio, Aurilia, Cirillo, etc.) or anyway disappointment (Sexson, Beltre–I love his glove, but his offensive output is a disappointment considering he was the biggest FA contract given by the M’s at the time) after coming to the Safe.
Guillen was a plus bat, and I thought it was BB’s bonehead in not signing him, because his three year deal was peanuts in terms of cost performance when you compare with contracts like Silva, Washburn, Batista, etc. But BB’s comments on Guillen indicate the possibility that he was severely constrained by Lincoln and Armstrong who must have had their pants in a twist by superficial concerns (the Mitchell report hasn’t seemed to effect Brian Robert, Giambi, Tejada, etc. etc.).
It’s also probably Lincoln and Armstrong who insist on picking up mediocre players because they happen to be “hometown boys”. When most of the other teams are playing rational hardball, such sentimental garbage can pull you down.
Anyway, I’ve been upset with Bavasi’s performance, but I’m getting the idea he was victimized more than we can know by incompetent meddling from above.
And regarding the Guillen topic, I can imagine some rationale to the recent McLaren (crazy man) moves.
If you move the best rightfielder out of his position, it’s with the idea that you are getting a plus bat (like Guillen) to man right.
But when you end up plugging terrible replacement level bats out there, it makes less sense.
The offensive numbers coming out of RF must be terrible this year (Wilkerson being a complete bust and Wlad having serious adjustment problems).
I’d rather see the Ichi-range manning center, but can understand Reed being there too.
Of course it could just be some random move by McLaren going crazy (which could actually be one attempt/way to jumpstart this complete carwreck of a team). Have a crazed unpredictable man drive.
Guillen is a mediocrity. The problem wasn’t letting him go, the mistake was inadequately replacing him.
There has been speculation (not just by bloggers) that the Mets were just going to fire pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, but Willie Randolph, when told of this, suggested that they just fire him along with them.
78:
If we had 3 mediocraties like Guillen to play first, DH/LF, and RF, and left Ichiro in Center, we wouldn’t be in the shape we’re in. Guillen is no allstar but he is a lot better than what we got.
Fine, but that’s not the argument.
If the only difference was Guillen out there in RF, would this team be a .500 team? Would this be a 90+ win team? Is Guillen really the biggest mistake coming into this season?
The Jose Guillen decision goes way beyond the debate of him versus Brad Wilkerson. It involved all of the horrors that still drive us crazy: Ibanez in LF, Vidro at DH, Sexson at 1B, the Adam Jones trade, the signing of Cairo, etc. Even at that point, when the Mariners still had Jones, they couldn’t fathom a starting lineup of Guillen/Ichiro/Jones with Ibanez at DH/1B and Vidro on the bench. Even Larry LaRue tried to defend the Mariners by saying something along the lines of, “Ibanez is the left fielder, Ichiro the center fielder and Jones the right fielder, so why would the Mariners pay Guillen $12 million to sit?†He also referenced batting average to defend Vidro as the DH.
And when you consider that the Mariners a) had all but decided to trade Jones at that point and b) would have received a sandwich pick had Guillen rejected Seattle’s offer of arbitration, it makes even less sense.
It’s crazy. The three absolute best case scenarios involving Guillen were considered the worst case scenarios in the eyes of the FO (and idiots like LaRue) due to their unwillingness to accept — or perhaps even see — previous mistakes and move forward. The timeline of compounded mistakes that sank the Mariners at warp speed during the Bavasi era is astonishing.
(OK, that rant was totally unnecessary and out of date but it still felt good.)