19 Jun
McLaren fired, Riggleman in
So says the hot rumor. I guess he got the predicted June 19th viking funeral after all.
11:30 press conference.
Was it the open letter on lineups? I was only trying to be helpful.
As Dave noted earlier, the reason to keep McLaren around would be to let an incoming GM pick their own candidate: if Riggleman does better the rest of the season, which should happen, then the thought is it’s harder to fire him. I’m not sure that’ll deter whoever takes over, of course.
AP-WA–APNewsAlert,0016
SEATTLE (AP) — Seattle Mariners have fired manager John McLaren, replacing him with bench coach Jim Riggleman.
(Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
APNP 06-19-08 1005PDT
I concur.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Later, Bud.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:10 amSo much for not posting today, huh, guys? Sorry; you deserved a break.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:10 amThis is what they’re saying on XM175 as well. Chuck Wilson is talking to Jonah Keri right now.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:11 amThe heads continue to roll like bowling balls.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:11 amAdding to my previous comment, the firings of Bavasi and maybe McLaren were\will be strikes.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:13 amWho’s this Riggleman chap? I assume he’s not going to be the main man forever? Will he finish out the season?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:14 amWay to add your light there, paydady
June 19th, 2008 at 10:16 amI don’t know a lot about Riggleman, but do you really think they’d keep him on after the season?
After McLaren took over for Hargrove, it didn’t work out so well after they decided to bring him back for another year. I think its highly unlikely that Riggleman is the manager past this year.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:16 amRiggleman used to manage the Cubs. I hope he is only an interim guy.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:16 amBut I’m hoping Riggleman does a great job and gets this thing turned around, Strasburg notwithstanding.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:17 amAt least he hasn’t been waiting 40 years for his one shot at management, only to have it pulled away through no fault of his own *cough.* It should be easier to fire this new guy, since he has already been a manager, so it won’t break his heart.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:18 amYuni must be stoked now. No need to build that raft after all.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:18 amThey have it up on the M’s official website. Scroll down and look under “releases”
June 19th, 2008 at 10:20 amWOOHOOO, actual intelligent change coming from the F.O. Better late than never, am i right. This is the happiest week in a long time!!
June 19th, 2008 at 10:21 amI wondered which of the former managers would be knighted, if this happened … I guess Riggleman is “more experienced” than Perlozzo
and more Breaking News on KJR! Mahler has heard that Richie Sexson may be on his way out soon, too. No, really.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:22 am[ot]
June 19th, 2008 at 10:23 amClearly, the M’s thought to themselves “Hah! Derek Zumsteg thinks he’s getting a day off, eh? WE’LL SEE ABOUT THAT!”
What do we know about Riggleman? I know he used to manage the Cubs and the Padres, but is he any good, or is he just a retread for the rest of the season?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:23 amwell, Riggleman always gets slotted in the “retread” section when managerial change columns are written — FWIW, he had a 486-598 record with the Cubs and Padres.
04-APR-04– Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL)
June 19th, 2008 at 10:28 am“Managerial style: By the book, almost to a fault. Riggleman was extremely prepared day in and day out, and he rarely criticized players in public. He always had well-thought-out explanations for moves that either worked out or didn’t.”
Is there anyone left to fire now?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:28 amI hope McLaren catches on in another organization in a position he’s capable of handling (Right hand Man - AKA bench coach). He’s a nice guy but it was really apparent that he was over matched last year and shouldn’t have been given the full time gig. Some guys grow into the position and show the ability to learn and adapt. McLaren never did. I think the final straw for me was bending over and giving Washburn his own personal catcher. That is a situation reserved for knuckleball pitchers and #1 ace starters, not back end guys with 85mph fastballs that serve up batting practice.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:29 amAwww Ot. Well at least you know now.
Mac tried. But man he just was comically bad at times.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:29 amNext on the chopping block - the Moose.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:30 amMcLaren sort of combined the worst of everything…
Hargrove’s bizarre in-game moves
BoMel’s softness toward dealing with veterans and the front office
Lou’s reliance on veterans and the pre-Price bullpen tactics
Plus he took lineup construction to a new level of idiocy, even past Hargrove’s level.
Maybe nobody told him he was supposed to learn the best things to do from the managers he worked with?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:30 amJeff Nye - This is the part where I’d generally say managers have little to do with the outcome of games.
However, John McLaren has changed my perception on that subject forever.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:31 amHappy days! John, best of luck to you and I hope you find a good job out there. In the mean time, hopefully we can get back to lineups that don’t include .220 hitting DH’s with no power or speed. At least not with them hitting in the 3 spot.
It would be nice if a certain Yankee or Tiger’s manager gets fired by the end of the year, but I’m not getting my hopes up.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:31 amWell, he managed Sammy Sosa to 66 dingers in 1998 — must have something on the ball.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:33 am“With 90 games left on our schedule, we owe it to ourselves and our fans to do everything we can to win as many games as possible.” - new M’s GM
I’m pretty sure everyone would rather pile on wins next year and onwards instead of meaningless wins now that ruin draft chances.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:33 amNow we can kick ourselves for showing no interest in Torre, and we can kick ourselves for not giving LaRussa a job when he showed interest in us.
Oh what could have been. I mean we would still be losers, but maybe .500 losers.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:35 amI haven’t seen anyone else say this: Thanks, John. This wasn’t your fault. You’re not the right guy for this job, and you’ll be happier out of it, even if you once thought it was going to be the culmination of everything you’ve worked for in your whole career. You’re a good and decent man, which is more important than being a baseball manager good or bad. I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you here.
It’s not John McLaren’s fault. John McLaren didn’t sign Jose Vidro. McLaren’s approach was not modern, but seriously, what are you supposed to do with a lineup like that? He tried to shake things up using the tools he had, but it wasn’t good enough. But the only tool that will work on this team is dynamite.
The misery on that man’s face every night was difficult to bear. I hope he can retire and do something fun with the rest of his life. You tried, John. We know that. Good luck.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:36 amIt’s too bad they couldn’t hold off for just a few more days. We could have had some sort of Mike Hargrove/John McLaren Quit/Get Fired Holiday.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:38 amWell said, Steve T.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:39 amGlory Day!!!!
I feel bad because he was one of Lou’s boys but this team needs a complete layover.
I wish him will in his future endeavors.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:39 amI wonder if McLaren is happy now that he won’t have to be the one to tell Richie to pack his bags.
I really do feel bad for the guy, but it needed to happen.
Joey Cora, here we come!
June 19th, 2008 at 10:40 amAs much as I hated John as a manager, I wish him the best.
I don’t remember much from Riggleman’s days with the Cubs, besides the fact that he managed there. I do know that he can’t be any worse than McLaren for the rest of the season.
So, to DMZ and Dave:
What does your “Manager Wishlist” look like?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:41 amI’m in agreement with you on this, and I suspect that Riggleman is probably in the very large pool of guys who don’t really matter. Which is still an upgrade over McLaren, who was clearly detrimental to the team’s success.
It might not be a popular viewpoint here, but I don’t really support purposely tanking the rest of the season to try to improve draft position. It’d be very frustrating to watch.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:41 amSo if Ichiro moving to right field was McLaren’s idea, does he still stay there now?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:44 amcertainly some changes we have begged for…
more or less…
NEXT!?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:45 amI get the feeling that maybe Ichiro moving to right was Ichiro’s idea.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:45 amYeti - are you saying that Ichiro wanted to get as far away from Ibanez as possible?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:47 amSince these open letters seem to work, maybe there should be a few more?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:48 amI would support tanking the rest of the year, and here’s how we do it:
June 19th, 2008 at 10:48 am1. Tell Ichiro! to go to the Bahamas for an extended vacation.
2. Bat Vidro #3.
3. Keep Putz on the DL and try to figure out what the hell is wrong with him.
4. Bring all of the kids up from Tacoma.
5. Stay in last place in the Ml at all costs
6. Draft a the next Cy Young or Mickey Mantle next year.
I hope not but we will see.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:49 amoh, and a shift in area 51. who’d ever thunk that? (apparently Ichiro was all smiles (that is humorously knowing John was next to go and that a shift to right field would be short lived))
June 19th, 2008 at 10:49 amwell, that was really more of a rumor of an interest
June 19th, 2008 at 10:51 amI could see it being Ichiro’s idea. A passive aggressive way of putting more defensive pressure on Raaalph, thus making him look worse…no…horridly worse.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:52 amOMG. abender20 said:
If they axe the damn Moose and replace him with a grizzled pirate type, I vow to buy season tickets for 2009.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:52 amThat is a strawman.
I’m pretty sure that we’d rather that they do things like give AB’s to young players not to get a better draft position, but to have them gain experience to help them next year.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:54 amWouldn’t you?
Stephen Strasburg
June 19th, 2008 at 10:54 amWhat we would need it the hitting coach who got Sammy Sosa to hit 66 HRs.
Oh.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:55 amSeriously. Giving young players experience in the majors is substantially different than purposely trying to lose games. I can favor the former but not the latter, Strasburg or not.
And, well, the young players will almost certainly be better than what McLaren’s been writing on the lineup card anyway, so doing that would probably lead to MORE wins than recent strategies.
Batting Vidro third is a pretty good way to try to lose games already, if that’s your intent.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:57 amWhile I think Mac only added to his own troubles with the lineups he penned in, I can’t fully fault the guy given the roster he had.
My only worry is if it will have any negative affect wrt Ichiro!
June 19th, 2008 at 10:59 amJoe C-
June 19th, 2008 at 10:59 amWouldn’t you? I like Raul a lot, but I’d like him more as a DH. Ichiro probably got tired of picking up the slack for everyone else in center. Anyone remember him stepping in front of Wilkerson more than once to grab a fly just to let everyone know who the outfield belonged to?
I think last night’s game featured the President of Western Washington, a choir girl from WWU singing the national anthem, and the WWU Mascot. Funny that you mention a Viking funeral.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:59 amAAARGH
June 19th, 2008 at 11:02 am[meta, we'll look into it]
Also based on this quote:
Looks like that is a direct threat: play or your gone!
YAYYY
June 19th, 2008 at 11:02 amBy the time they get around to it, DFA’ing Sexson and Vidro will barely merit a mention.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:02 amWe don’t have to only play young players. We could have one night where we have Willie Boom-Boom play all nine postions. If Ichiro decides to come back from the Bahamas early, we could have him pitch once or twice.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:03 amIn another announcement, the Mariner’s will now allow PDA…as long as neither of the people involved wears a “Yankees Suck” t-shirt.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:06 amI’m all for stunting Morrow’s growth as much as possible. Why can’t he take grounders at first?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:06 amDon’t give the FO any ideas — I’m sure they would jump on the idea of adding a Moose BBQ promotion.
Now that we’re playing like the early-80s M’s, can we bring back the pirate ship in CF?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:10 amIs McLaren going to pull a Bavasi and come in to answer questions after the press conference?
If so I think there should be a lot of questions asked about line-up choices and specifically why Vidro and Sexson were allowed to bat in their respective places in the order for so long.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:12 amThe firing just WILL NOT STOP
June 19th, 2008 at 11:15 amWhat does it matter now?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:15 amDoes this mean the Ms still have to finish the season?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:16 amI’m not usually the one who looks to jump all over the management when the players can’t perform but these recent moves are well over due. The stupidity or indifference of McClaren and Bavasi was so in-your-face obvious that it is amazing it took this long. The M’s need to stop being sentimental and start being practical. When McClaren got the job after Hargrove eloped with himself everyone was “exited” to see McClaren to get the job because he had been around for so long and he “deserved it.” Stop being sentimental and start winning.
Next on the agenda:
June 19th, 2008 at 11:18 am1. Lock up Felix for as long as he wants and as much as he wants.
2. If you didn’t finalize number one… DO IT!
3. Move Sexson and Vidro off the team in whichever way you can. Cut them if you have to.
4. Designate Cairo for assignment.
5. Designate Bloomquist for assignment. (See stop being sentimental above)
6. Call up prospects needed to fill voids left by incompetent, overpaid Major Leaguers.
7. Begin the search for the new GM. Hire Antonetti or Forst.
8. Let them rebuild the staff from the ground up and solve the Bedard puzzle.
9. Look forward to Next season.
At this point, I have to give Howard and Chuck some credit. A month ago when they were rolling out the “he’s part of the solution, not the problem” and other lines of PR crap, I knew they were trying to redirect criticism.
The fact that they’ve made these first two changes (with more to come, i’m sure) as a marked departure from their previous management style, I’m going to give them some credit. I don’t think they acted fast enough, but they did act — and did so in a different way than they’ve handled it in the past.
I’ve worked with old successful businessmen, and that almost *never* happens. Keep the process moving along and please clean up the mess.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:21 amAgreed.
The way I think of it is this: The Mariners should do whatever they can to win games now, without using any moves or strategies that hurt their chances of success in the future.
Don’t slack, don’t tank. Play hard… but if a specific move or strategy is a choice between winning now or in the future, the future wins every time.
I would think that would be kind of freeing. I would like to watch that team… even if they were actually worse the rest of the year.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:22 amCheesy or not, I miss the cannon shots after home runs and the bells ringing for the number of runs scored as the inning ends. Of course, I miss the home runs and runs themselves even more, of course.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:23 amI kept listening to KJR to hear what Buster Onley would be
flingingsaying (turns out he is really pushing Cashman) and so got to listen to various callers.To sum up … Lou, someone like Lou, in 10 years Armstrong and Lincoln have never said “World Series”, and we need players like Edgar & Olerud.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:25 amby the way, if you know where we can find another Edgar or Olerud ….
June 19th, 2008 at 11:26 am65 - How is it so different from the way they’ve handled it in the past?
Also, well said, Steve T. I agree wholeheartedly.
I also still believe that Mac was significantly better than Hargrove. Not that I disagree with this move, just that it’s easy to forget how bad Mike “Aggressive Baserunning” Hargrove was.
Hope you find a better situation, Mac.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:26 amjro - very true. If nothing else, it’s encouraging.
I know it’s been discussed in the past, and I hope this isn’t considered ot - but now that the FO is in the middle of their tough-love-house cleaning, what are the chances that they will do something really stupid like trading Ichiro! or Beltre?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:26 amIt doesn’t matter, except to satisfy curiousity. I’m interested to know the thought process behind some of his managerial decisions. I’ve heard him explain some over the past few months, but I think you get a different perspective from someone who has just been relieved from their duties.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:28 amAs a matter of fact, yes there is! Fire Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln, and the housecleaning will be complete.
Oh yeah, what Steve T. said, too.
Jimmie
June 19th, 2008 at 11:42 amLee Elia as bench coach, and will continue to supervise the new hitting program, with Jose Castro acting as on-field hitting coach.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:44 amGOODBYE SQUINTY!
June 19th, 2008 at 11:45 amHIRE JOEY CORA FOR NEXT SEASON!
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings
He’s like Ozzie Guillen without the Hugo Chavez-like temper.
Stark’s column is chalk full of Mariner goodness BTW. Including more Griffey to Seattle rumors.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:47 amGuess those two guys who just got “You’re doing a great job, Brownie” moments in the press conference better start packing their bags. Nothing like having Armstrong go public with what a great job you’re doing.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:48 amWhoops. that was the PR Director, not Armstrong, so maybe it wasn’t the kiss of death.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:49 amwasn’t it Pelekoudas who was applauding Jim Na and Greg Hunter?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:50 amOver/Under on where Vidro is in the lineup next day? Out of the lineup counts for 10. I put it at 8.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:52 amIf we’re to have any hope at all of trading for Coco Crisp we’re going to have to cut the moose. Their past history will corrupt our pristine clubhouse chemistry.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:53 amAnyone else hope Willie Randolph’s phone will be ringing soon?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:54 amThe Mariners are currently 25-47. There are 90 games left in the seaon. If the Mariners go on a 90 game winning streak, they can tie the record of the 2001 Mariners.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amHave to love the Northwest Cable News sports guy saying:
Well, it was weird that after Bavasi got fired that Mac put Ichiro in right, and Bloomquist starting more games, because Bloomquist can be such a spark plug for the team
A tad paraphrased, but funny as hell.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amDave Mahler sounds convinced that Sexson and VIdro just got crap-canned… I’m trying to call up my source, but so far just voicemail. Sexson I believe, but Vidro I’d been told was a couple of weeks away.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amI take that back. They can go on a 90-game winning streak, and still won’t have a better record than the 2001 Mariners.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:57 amFun hearing Jim Na’s name… if I’m not mistaken, he and DMZ very briefly (and probably unknowingly) worked together at RealNetworks.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:59 amThat Stark piece referenced in 77 has some authoritative sounding pronouncements about how Bavasi’s departure was due in significant part to his reluctance to trade Bedard and how Bedard is now officially on the block — and why we’re not going to get anywhere near what we paid for him (surprise).
June 19th, 2008 at 11:59 amCrisp and the Moose, cage match on pay-per-view. It’ll draw more than an M’s game at this point. How else to salvage the gate? (Crisp has some moves, as we saw when he went after the Rays, and the Moose has lots of padding. Plus a vehicle. Sounds fair to me.)
Man, this has been the most exciting (or at least interesting — in the “chinese curse” sense) span for those of us following the M’s in, what, four years?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:59 amYeah, Joey Cora gets my vote too….I’m surprised the M’s didn’t grab Randolph..after all..change is in order right??
June 19th, 2008 at 12:00 pmNow, let’s count the days until Sexson and the Baconator are let go….
he’s been saying this all morning, as though he had secret sources telling him– as opposed to, say, the reports in the newspapers the last few days …
June 19th, 2008 at 12:02 pmrumoring viz Sexson and Vidro
June 19th, 2008 at 12:04 pmDave Mahler sounds convinced that Sexson and VIdro just got crap-canned…
Tuning past KJR (I really can’t listen for any kind of extended period, and rely on msb for complete updates) they claimed they got a text direct from one of the players that Vidro and Sexson were both on the plane to Atlanta.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pmThe thing I like most about Riggleman is that he has veteran experience managing 100 game losers. You can’t bring in rookies for that kind of work.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:09 pmHe’d been saying that he’d heard they would be cut within a couple days, then after the presser he switched to a very firm they had BEEN cut.
Off the phone with my friend a moment ago, was informed that it looks as tho Sexson will be done in after the road trip now, he was given a stay by the firing of Mac. Vido may be canned at the same time, may be after or during the following homestand, depends on how Riggleman winds up using him.
On the topic of managers, my vote goes strongly in Joey’s direction, tho that’s as much a sentimental vote as anything.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:10 pmVidro and Sexson were both on the plane to Atlanta.
…however, the rest of the team was still in Seattle. Ba-dum bump!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:10 pmYou may have thought it was helpful Derek, but I thought it was a personal public insult to Mac.
Mac has been in baseball longer than you have been alive, and with Mel and Lee in the dugout to help him there is no chance he doesn’t KNOW how to make up a lineup.
If he’s trotting out a bad lineup every night it might be on purpose, or out of desperation, in response to stuff happening behind the scenes. Early in the season, he was putting out rational lineups. As things started circling the bowl he tried just about everything.
So as I read it it came thru to me as a big SNARK, which may not be the way you intended it.
Just my opinion, not trying to slag you personally here. (Heck, I even hit the donate button today and sent some beer money your way).
But NO, I’m sure it was not in response to your Line Up post, we all knew this was coming. It was more honorable than sending him to Atlanta and firing him via a text message like the Mets did.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:11 pmMr. Pelekoudas…what is a new voice going to do to help you evaluate these players. Nothing. Anyone else here that during the confrence.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:13 pm“We want a new voice to get to the players so we can really evaluate them before making roster moves”…thats not really going to do anything Lee. Actually you’re just delaying the inevitable.
jsa, if that was parody, it’s one of most disciplined executions of such I’ve seen in a while.
If you were actually serious…. I don’t know what to say, I’m just shaking my head in disbelief.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:18 pmjsa, if Derek’s polite, carefully worded post — and you know he’s joking about causing the firing, right? — was an insult, then it’s impossible to criticize a manager’s decisions without insulting him. Is that actually what you mean? If so, you must shake your head sadly an awful lot at sportswriting of all kinds.
Regarding Randolph: If you had to watch him manage every day, you wouldn’t want him. I don’t think he’s an awful manager, but if you want to be driven batty by constant small-ball managing, hire Randolph.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:20 pm[linked already in another thread]
June 19th, 2008 at 12:29 pmHasn’t Riggleman had a decent reputation for talent evaluation? I could be wrong, it’s been awhile since I’ve read anything on him.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:31 pmWhat scraps said.
That post was intended to be entirely sincere and helpful, something Mac could read, consider, and use as a jumping point for further reference, and if you read it as snark, that makes me sad.
I don’t know what else to say.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:41 pmYes, I know it was joking.
But a polite carefully worded post explaining baseball basics that EVERY high-school coach SHOULD KNOW, to a guy that has been in the dugout as long as those three guys, CAN and PROBABLY WAS taken (by Mac, if no one else) to be more insulting than just asking him what color the sun is on any planet where Vidro bats second.
And, for the record, yes I do shake my head at lots of sports writing. (And how did you sneak sportswriting by your spellchecker?) But I don’t shake my head much at DMZ’s writing.
The post was indeed well written. It was polite. It was correct. OK?
I’m just saying it came across as the overly patronizing hallway lecture delivered by the Assistant Principal to an misbehaving 6th grader. Had DMZ just posted it, without personally directing it as an open letter to Mac it would not have appeared that way.
I would hope this site never becomes such that one cannot give feedback to Dave or DMZ.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:43 pmWhat’s patronizing about offering help to someone who clearly needs it?
June 19th, 2008 at 12:59 pmexplaining baseball basics that EVERY high-school coach SHOULD KNOW
June 19th, 2008 at 1:04 pmYou’re both right. McLaren should know this stuff; it’s also pretty clear he doesn’t. Just because you’ve been around a long time, doesn’t make you good; I’ve interviewed plenty of experienced job candidates who didn’t meet the bar for an entry-level position. There’s just no rational explanation for putting one of the worst hitters in the league in the 2 or 3 spot night-in, night-out, other than “I don’t understand lineup construction” or “I think Jose Vidro is a lot better than his stat line”.
In the first place, I don’t know what you’re spellchecker uses, but I use Webster’s 11th New Collegiate Dictionary, the publishing industry standard, and it is happy with “sportswriting”.
In the second place, I only care about the treatment of compounds — open, hyphenated, or closed — when I’m being paid to in my profession (copy editor and proofreader).
In the first place, this is a fallacy: criticizing your criticism is not the same as saying no criticism should be made.
In the second place, don’t you find it at all inconsistent to say that you ought to be able to criticize Derek on the basics of polite writing but he oughtn’t criticize McLaren on the basics of lineup construction?
June 19th, 2008 at 1:19 pmCripes, “you’re” should be “your”. It never fails: mention that you’re a proofreader, make a stupid mistake.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:20 pmDifferent people take things different ways. He saw it as patronizing, which I can see and understand, you didn’t. Not a big deal.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:24 pmIntelligent feedback always seems well received.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:37 pmJoey Cora as a possible manager? Count me in on the bandwagon.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:44 pmI haven’t seen Riggleman really manage day in and day out, but I can say he was Jim Tracy’s bench coach. The possibility of having intelligence leach out of his head by the sheer colossal magnitude of the vortex of suck that was Jim Tracy is substantial. Nevertheless, this is absolutely a temporary decision, and everyone knows it.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:47 pmAre there anything other than sentimental reasons to want to hire Joey Cora? This is a sincere question; I honestly don’t know, and would welcome good reasons.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:50 pmYikes. Why on earth would we want Joey Cora? I mean I miss the guy too, but let’s just hang a big poster of his face somewhere in Safeco and hire somebody else, yeah?
June 19th, 2008 at 2:00 pmCora has been talked up quite a bit as future manager material, especially since the White Sox won the World Series. I think people implicitly assume somebody has to be keeping the ship on course while Ozzie goes nuts.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:01 pmRiggleman was absolutely by-the-book in on-field tactics in his days with the Cubs. Uninspired, but serviceable. Personally, though, I think on-field tactics is just a small protion of what makes a good manager - maybe 10%. Far more important are his abilities to get the most out of the players he has, support his coaches, and deal with management (especially as they make personnel decisions). I don’t know anything about how well Riggleman does the 90%.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:08 pmthe three minor league managerial stints, as well as his time as GM of the Caguas baseball team …
June 19th, 2008 at 2:34 pmHuh. I guess I’m pretty much the opposite. I don’t think managers have the ability to get the most out of their players; I doubt there’s ever been a manager who has a demonstrable record of their players performing better than they did under other managers. All I ask from a manager in these areas is that he not do damage: not do things that harm his players.
Whereas tactics, minor as it may be compared to the skills of the players, does make some difference in runs scored and allowed. So give me a tactical manager, regardless of the other stuff. At worst, that gets you Billy Martin. At best it gets you Earl Weaver.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pmI’d like to see Cora at the helm as well. He has worked his way up through progressively responsible coaching jobs (3rd base coach, bench coach) and frankly it is probably time for him to get a shot by someone. It might as well be us.
I think he might suprise us with his methods (and might not too), and the sentimental aspect of him being the Skip, sadly, is a fringe benefit that might freaking matter at this point. Yeah, I’d buy a ticket to see Cora yank Silva in the 4th inning after another lousy outing.
Bring on Mighty Mouse.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:02 pmThat would be an interesting study, and I’d love to see it. Obviously, my feeling is that it would come out the other way, but we’re both talking through our hats, which is why I qualified it as a clear opinion.
I think it is demonstrably true, though, that most managers have a hand in personnel decisions. Not about what to pay players, perhaps, but over what type of player the team pursues. Who goes between the lines is the most important thing for any team.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:03 pm‘Mere’ tactics involve the accumulation — or loss — of fractional win expectancies here and there, inning after inning, all season long. In addition to that you have to manage day to day, directly and through your staff, 25 guys, many of whom still are pumping enough testosterone to fly the space shuttle into low earth orbit, some of whom didn’t exactly get 1600 on their SAT’s, some of whom have got some or all of the regular problems plus they barely speak the mother tongue and all of whom, even on a team of losers, are confident and relatively accomplished athletes. While I, too, doubt you can get more out of Willie Bloomquist than God has given him, I think poor managing either tactically or tactily can result in getting less out of Willie than there was to start with. Again, all of this occurs in fractions of win expectancies played out over 162 games (or more, unless you’re a Mariner fan) but I think both parts of the equation can be real enough to effect outcomes.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:16 pmHere.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:26 pmThat would be an interesting study, and I’d love to see it.
There’s just not enough data, and way too many confounding variables. Teams that change managers in the offseason generally have different rosters; players who go to play for other managers have different teammates and are at different points on their career arcs. Even if you looked strictly at teams that switched managers mid-season and kept the same roster, there’s too much else that changes for it to be meaningful — they don’t play the same teams, and the teams they do play both before and after have changed somewhat as well (you don’t even see the same pitchers necessarily). Not to mention that, aside from the 2007 M’s, how many teams have changed managers when they weren’t doing anything but stinking up the basement in the standings, where some regression to the mean is almost inevitable anyway?
A manager probably has some effect, and there may even be some way to measure it, but I don’t know how you would.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:29 pmRemember that we’re talking about the effect of a manager, but we don’t necessarily need to study only managerial changes on a single team. Studying the effects on players who change teams may be useful, too, if controlled for player ages and stadium effects and so on. So I don’t think the problem is lack of data so much as the surfeit of variables.
I take it for granted that the design of such a study would be very difficult, which is why we have never seen one.
June 19th, 2008 at 5:15 pmOh ho ho, and that’s where you’re wrong. This has been studied.
June 19th, 2008 at 5:58 pmAnyone read Jim Caple’s piece on ESPN.com? Paints quite a bleak picture. Really makes you loathe Bavasi more, considering the Mt. Everest-sized enormosity of his ineptitude. Things should not have been allowed to get this bad. Being called laughingstock would be a compliment.
As long as Lincoln and Armstrong are the gruesome twosome calling the shots, may we hope and pray for some luck to get a saber-guy, and not a retread of the Krivsky/Bonifay/LaMar stinky mold. That said, we all wait with baited breath that they’ve actually learned something…
With Mat Olkin having as small a voice in the organization as he does, should we have any faith in anyone worthwhile as GM?
As a self-employed business owner myself, I truly cannot understand how a business person can look at themselves and their competition and seemingly never ask the question, “what can we learn from them to improve our own business?” All we hear, like in Howard Lincoln’s response to that fan letter, references their commitment to their high payroll. I honestly could give a s*** less how much money they spend on payroll if they don’t know how to spend it wisely. Lincoln needs to understand this and not sound so hollow. My parents taught me to think before I speak. Apparently, Lincoln’s philosophy is “ignorance is bliss.”
June 19th, 2008 at 9:03 pm